Hey everyone, it's Mikki here. You're listening to Mikkipedia, and this is Mikkipedia and Chasing Clarity, another collaboration episode with Brandon D'Cruz, and today we give you a protein masterclass.

We unpack how much you need, how that changes with your goals and life stage, and which details actually deserve your attention.

With protein appearing on everything from yogurt to chocolate bars, you'd think the advice would be clearer.

But confusion persists around daily targets, kidney health, plant versus animal sources, and whether you really need a shake the moment you finish training.

Brandon and I explore the relationship between protein and resistance training, why requirements change during fat loss, and how to approach protein for muscle gain, endurance performance, and healthy ageing.

We also discuss appetite, protein quality, leucine, meal frequency, and the much debated anabolic window.

So whether you're starting to prioritize protein or wondering if your current approach needs refining, this conversation offers practical starting points and a clearer sense of what matters most.

Brandon will be no stranger to anyone who listens to Mikkipedia.

He is an online nutrition and physique coach, accredited nutritionist, functional nutrition and metabolism specialist, and health and fitness educator with over 16 years of coaching experience.

And Brandon has helped more than 12.

200 clients ranging from Olympia level physique competitors and competitive athletes to business owners, executives, and lifestyle clients just like you improve their body composition, optimize performance, and enhance their overall health.

Brandon is known for his ability to translate complex scientific concepts into practical, actionable strategies and specializes in helping clients lose body fat, build muscle, improve metabolic health, and create sustainable long-term results without relying on exercise.

extremes or quick fixes. And of course, as I said, this is a collab episode. Brandon is also the host

of the Chasing Clarity Health and Fitness podcast, a show ranked in the top 5% of all podcasts on

Spotify, which is an amazing achievement. Why isn't Mikkipedia there? I do not know. It probably

is actually, I just never look. So I think that if you haven't checked out Chasing Clarity yet

and you enjoy these conversations, it is an education in all things nutrition and metabolism

and you will love it. Now, for those of you who are yet to follow Brandon, you can check him out

on his website, brandondacruzfit.com and on Instagram at brandondacruz underscore and

Chasing Clarity you can find on any podcast listening platform. Before we crack on into it

though, in order to get Mikkipedia in that top 5%, why don't you hit subscribe on your favorite

podcast listening platform and leave a five-star review if you have not already.

That increases the visibility of Mikkipedia and amongst literally thousands of other podcasts

out there. So more people can hear the conversations that I have with my good

friends like Brandon Dacruz. All right, guys, enjoy the conversation.

So today on this episode, Mikki and I are going to walk through the major questions

surrounding dietary protein. Welcome back, Mikki. I'm really glad that we're able to

make these collaborations a regular thing. And I think that protein is going to be a great topic

to tackle because there are so many areas where the research is pretty clear, but there's also a

lot of areas where the practical application requires much more nuance. So I think that

bringing together both of our experiences and our ability to translate research into practical

application is going to be super useful for our audiences. I totally agree, Brandon. And it's

always great to spend this time chatting to you about it. And I do love our different perspectives

in that we were even just chatting about the different clients that we have and the needs

of those clients. And I think that's really important. And I think that's really important.

I think this is where a lot of the, I guess, if there are differences that we have, it's probably

to do with the fact that we are talking to different people day in and day out about what

they require and they need. And I think this is where a lot of the confusion sort of lies. And I

do find it interesting as well, right? So the one essential macronutrient, our structural

macronutrient is the one that we are told from a public health perspective, we should be absolutely

trying to limit, you know, a lot of the time because of the, you know, these are the, some of

the public health messages that have been out there for the last 20 years, certain isolated

foods in those things, eggs, red meat, et cetera. And there's just, there is still a lot of confusion.

I don't think that the, I guess, protein is sort of blowing up everywhere on social media and print

media, digital, et cetera, but it doesn't mean that more information has made it any clearer

for people. 100%. I think that one thing that's a huge issue is that we're in the age of information,

but with that is coming so much information that many people are overwhelmed and they don't know

who to look to or who to listen to. So despite the fact that protein, we're essentially in like a

social media era where we're getting proteinified, like a proteinification is everywhere. You're

seeing protein in a whole foods sections. You're seeing it in grocery stores. You're seeing protein

being added to things that there's no need to add protein to because of the popularity of like

individuals in the fitness and the nutrition space and health and fitness becoming a little bit more

prominent and popular. However, we still have a lot of dogmatic beliefs around protein, which has

caused people to not know what to listen to, how much to consume. And what's very interesting

is that every single nutrient is isolated in some type of content and it's demonized.

So we've had the sugar be demonized, carbohydrates be demonized, dietary fat be demonized,

but protein is one that has kind of lasted the test of time of being demonized in manners that

are filled with misinformation.

And disinformation, when we really tease apart some of these narratives around other nutrients,

we can find data that supports and refutes these things. But there's things like the

Brenner hypothesis on kidney disease and the association between protein intake and kidney

disease that has literally been debunked for 70 years. You still see medical professionals

repeating that, fitness professionals, dieticians repeating that. I recently worked with a dietician

that became a client about six months ago, and she was correcting me on protein intake needs

and essentially telling me that,

over 1.6 grams per kilogram per day was deleterious to her kidney health. And it was almost startling.

And I sent her some articles. I actually sent her, we had done a protein myths podcast,

I believe in 2024 on my podcast channel. So I actually sent her that and we had went over

all the data on that. But it's interesting because this was not someone that had been

in dietetics that long. I believe she's in her mid thirties. So we're thinking that maybe she

finished university 10 to 15 years ago. And that is, that rhetoric is still being

taught in clinical nutrition classes. So I think that when it comes down to really speaking to our

audiences and knowing our audiences, yes, we do cover two different types of demographics,

but together we can kind of bridge the gap and give everyone that comes to both of our podcasts,

a collective overview of what protein is necessary for, what it's useful for,

what intakes are appropriate for, and then some of the benefits, and then also

deconstructing some of the myths behind it. Yeah, I think that's really great. And what I

will also add is that I think what makes nutrition, nutrition, nutrition, nutrition, nutrition, nutrition,

such a complex area to fully appreciate, I suppose, to fully sort of grasp what is real

and what isn't, or what is applicable to you is that there are so many different

literal experts, like people who really are expert in a particular area saying different

things actually. And, you know, like really well-reviewed and well-published doctors in

the space of nutrition telling us that there's no extra requirement for protein over and above the

Then you've got other people in the space saying, you know, you need 2.2 grams per kg body

weight. So, you know, there's, there's just a lot of voices who all with similar authority saying

quite different things. Absolutely. So before we start digging into the details, I think it makes

sense to establish why protein matters in the first place. And specifically for our audiences,

I think the most important place to start is relationship between dietary protein,

resistant training, and skeletal muscle. Because a lot of people that come to us,

whether they're endurance athletes or they're people more in my,

body and center physique focus, hobby builders, fitness enthusiasts, they're trying to utilize

a proper dietary protein take to accrete muscle or maintain muscle, whether that be during a fat

loss phase during a competition prep or during a meat prep or say a race prep. And so our skeletal

muscle was constantly undergoing a process of remodeling. And at any given point, we're

simultaneously simulating and synthesizing new muscle proteins through the process of muscle

protein synthesis and breaking down existing muscle proteins through muscle protein synthesis.

Muscle protein degradation or muscle protein breakdown. So if we simplify this down,

when muscle protein synthesis exceeds muscle protein breakdown over time,

we create a positive net protein balance, which provides a physiological environment for muscle

protein accretion, which simply can be put as muscle growth. Whereas when muscle protein

breakdown exceeds synthesis, we have a net muscle protein balance, which means we're going to be

losing muscle. Now, there are two major tools that we're going to be talking about throughout

this episode that influence that equation, that essentially stimulate muscle protein.

And that is resistance training, which provides a mechanical tension stimulus that essentially

stimulates muscle protein synthesis and also makes muscle tissue more sensitive to amino acids after

we consume them. And then the second is dietary protein. When we consume protein, we digest that

protein into both peptides and amino acids. And those amino acids enter circulation and become

available for protein synthesis throughout the body. It's not just for muscle. It occurs throughout

the entire body. And I think that there's another important point there. Those amino acids aren't

just going directly into the body. They're going to be going directly into the body. And that's

your muscle group. So if you train quads or glutes or biceps, they're not being transported just into

those muscle groups. They're also being used to support enzyme creation, hormones, connective

tissue. A lot of it gets absorbed through the splenic tissue. So in the gastrointestinal tract,

we have protein that goes to the liver and then protein turnover throughout the body.

But from the perspective of skeletal muscle, increasing amino acid availability through a

protein-containing meal stimulates muscle protein synthesis and gives us the substrate required to

synthesize new muscle proteins. So essentially, what I'm trying to get across is that the

we have two complementary signals. Resistant training provides the stimulus for muscle growth,

and then dietary protein provides the amino acids needed to support that adaptation.

And so I really think the best way to think about this, because I do have certain people within my

audience and even clients of mine, that they kind of think of these things as separate processes for

gaining muscle. They think they can just eat enough protein to gain muscle. And I'm sure you've had

that interaction where clients think that they can independently just increase protein intake,

and they're going to gain muscle as a result without that actual training,

unless underlying it. And what I really try to get across to people is that training creates

the signal for muscle growth, and protein helps our response to that signal. And there's a really

nice practical demonstration of this from a randomized control trial published by Mertz and

colleagues. They studied healthy older adults over the course of an entire year and looked at daily

protein supplementation with or without resistance training. The protein-only condition didn't

significantly increase their lean mass, whereas when the protein was paired with resistance

training, those outcomes became much more favorable.

And those that were utilizing a gym-based resistance training condition plus dietary

protein saw the largest increases in lean mass. And I think that this really illustrates that

relationship well. Simply adding more protein to someone's diet doesn't magically cause them to

add large amounts of muscle if they haven't been giving their body a robust stimulus to add that

muscle tissue. So from a body composition perspective, I don't view this as training

versus nutrition. And that's a question I often get. It's like, what's more important for body

composition? Is it nutrition or is it training? And they try to get me to put,

like, those percentages. Is it 80-20? Is it 50-50? And really, I see them as complementary pieces

of the same process and essentially key pieces of a puzzle that we have to fit together.

So we train to provide that stimulus, but we eat sufficient protein to support that adaptation.

So Mikki, before we get into the numbers, I'd love to get your perspective on the relationship

between resistance training and dietary protein and whether you'd add anything else around why

protein is so important beyond just its role in skeletal muscle tissue.

Like, a lot of the things which come to mind when I think about protein resistance training

and body composition. And I guess just a few things. And look, Brandon, we both know that

you're the numbers guy and you can pull papers off the top of your head. But what I do remember

listening to is Professor Don Lehman talk about his earlier research. And I believe it would be

in the late, maybe it was in the 1990s. And he did research with women wanting to lose weight,

and they were in about their mid-40s. And I remember him saying, well, I don't know, I don't

remember him specifically saying that when they put their protein up, and I think it was either

up to 1.8 or maybe it was two grams per kg body weight. And they did sort of quite basic

resistance-based training. It was on Nautilus. Like, is that some, like, you know Nautilus,

don't you? Yeah. So that study is like a 2005 study by Lehman and colleagues. They looked at

the general recommendation, like the dietary recommendations by the, I forget exactly,

what association. It might have been the Dietetics Association. And it was 0.8 versus 1.6 grams per

kilogram per day. And they looked at the differentiation and they were doing a load

bearing exercise, which was like almost like Pilates plus weights. So yeah, Nautilus, it was

like machine training. There were some bands. And they found that with each stair step increase in

dietary protein intake, they saw less lean mass loss. So I believe when it was just dietary

protein plus a deficit itself, meaning 0.8 grams per kilogram per day. So this,

the RDA without resistant training, they lost between 33% to 35% of their total weight loss

from lean mass. When they increased that protein intake with the deficit itself, no resistant

training to 1.6 grams per kilogram per day, they lost about 25% of their total weight loss

from skeletal muscle tissue, or technically it was lean body mass. And then when they increased it

and they had a higher protein intake group plus the resistant training, they only lost about 5%

to 6% of total weight loss from lean body mass itself.

This is what I love about you, Brandon. I knew that if I just bought some

vague idea of a study, you'd absolutely have the details that we needed. And I guess the reason

why I mentioned that is because a lot of the people I speak to, they're aware that they need

to do resistance training, but they've got so many blocks to it. And so part of my job is often

just sort of convincing people that funnily enough, we were talking about the minimum effective dose

before we jumped on, is that actually when it comes to body composition,

we talk a lot about the importance of protein. And of course it's, you know, of course it's

important. We're having a whole masterclass on it. But actually you need to stimulate that

adaptation through resistance training and trying to just sort of convince them to even to just

start small. And I often relay details of Don's study or just that notion that it doesn't actually

take a lot to really help protect the muscle that you've got. And I think that's one of the most

important drivers or the most important things when it comes to,

a lot of the people that I work with is just trying to not lose a ton of muscle

as compared to that they want to be building a ton of muscle. So I guess that's that

differentiation there. And so a lot of my conversations are around ensuring that they've

got some kind of load, some kind of stimulus from that resistance-based training perspective,

even starting small, but of course protein is important, but just don't over-index on protein

thinking you can do it without that resistance training,

sort of piece. And I guess the other, the only other thing I would say, because I get this a lot,

and this may just be a difference in our audiences that you don't experience, but

people cannot believe how satisfying protein is. And I know we're going to get to the satiety and

what people believe versus what's actually true in terms of satiety. But practically speaking,

this just really goes to tell me that it doesn't really matter that we talk a lot about protein

and that everything's been proteinified in the supermarket, that people are picking up something

going, well, this is protein.

I'll eat it. They're still not eating enough, actually. They think that two hard-boiled eggs

at breakfast or a protein shake, a small chicken breast at lunch, and like, I don't know, some fish

or a lean steak at dinner, and they're covered because their meal contains protein. And it's

not until I coach them, even to get over and above, and we're going to talk about soon, but

even to get half, 50% more than what they're currently eating, they just don't, they wouldn't

have known what a difference it would make. And so I think that's a really good point.

But that's the other thing as well. Their experiences tell me that the general audience

that I speak to still aren't getting enough. 100%. So we actually, I know the data better

in the States, but I'm sure that this, because it's an industrialized country, as is New Zealand,

it would still be somewhat applicable, maybe not in the exact numbers. But if we look at the

dietary protein intake distribution of the States, it's very heavily skewed towards dinner,

where a lot of people will eat in the realm of,

six to 15 grams for breakfast. They'll have a very low portion in lunch. And then their dinner

is where they get the vast majority of their protein. But there's some data that shows that

people are getting, men are getting 80 to 90 grams per day and women are getting less than that.

Now I can confirm a lot of that when I had individuals that are lifestyle clients come

to me for coaching because I do a dietary analysis. And oftentimes these may be people

that aren't really comprehensively tracking their intake, but I had them write down everything that

they eat for three to four days. And generally how I do that is a few days during the week,

I want a training and a non-training day. And then I also want their weekend diets.

And I will tell you that I see two things. First and foremost, they're across the board

under consuming protein. We're talking about individuals that women that are 150 pounds

eating less than 80 to 90 grams per day. And men that are 200 plus pounds that are eating less than

110 or a hundred to 120 grams per day. The other thing that I see, and actually there's data to

confirm this. I did a podcast where I really dug into weekday dietary patterns because I

have seen a lot of people that are eating less than 80 to 90 grams per day. And I've seen a lot

for the last 16 years, I've been coaching this weekday versus weekend diet or pattern,

meaning people over strict during the week. They stay on plan. They see some progress

and then they blow it out Friday through Friday through Sunday. And there's data that reinforces

that we over consume calories on weekends, but those calories generally come from a skewing

of dietary composition and dietary quality, meaning that we see an increase in dietary

fat intake, specifically saturated fat and increase in sugars and an increase in alcohol

content. Whereas the five dietary fiber and dietary protein actually get really, really good.

They're reduced. And so think about the context of a woman that's eating 80 to 90 grams Monday

through Friday, but then she's eating 70 grams on the weekends. And same thing with a man that's

eating 120 grams during the week, but a hundred grams on the weekends, they're not getting

sufficient protein any day that week, but they're getting even more insufficient protein on those

weekends. Now, what's very interesting about that is that we know that you're not going to

independently increase muscle mass for the most part. There are some protein overfeeding studies.

And actually we see in the brain research,

which is a metabolic ward study on a protein overfeeding that at the highest protein intake

group, they ended up every group gained weight because it was about a 40% overfeeding. So 40%

over maintenance calories, the group that had the highest protein intake, which was around three

grams per kilogram per day, they did gain more lean mass, but they gained the same amount of

body fat as well, because it's, it's the same caloric increase across the groups,

but actually they had a lower protein group, which was either five or 10% of total calories

per day from protein. They actually lost lean mass in, in the face of a caloric.

Surplus. Obviously there was no resistance training involved, but think about the average

person. If they're under protein, they're essentially insufficiently eating protein

and they're not sufficiently training. They could be in this muscle protein degradation state where

they're putting themselves in a disadvantageous from a body composition and a metabolic health

perspective. So I think that it's really important to prioritize it, even just educate people.

A lot of times we as fitness professionals, I think one limitation that many of us had is

that we, because of how much we know, we forget how, how little other people

know. And one thing that I really try to remind myself of when I'm doing podcasts or I'm doing

posts is that oftentimes I'm going to have to talk about the same concept every year.

I'm going to have to do another podcast on fat loss. I'm gonna have to do another podcast on

energy flux. I'm gonna have to do another podcast on protein. And I can't allow myself to feel like

that's becoming redundant because I reach more and more and more people every year.

And by being able to find a better way to express it and communicate it, I'm reaching the people

that need to hear it. Although if I only stated my own siloed brain and I thought about, Hey,

you know, I, you know, I want Eric Helms and Mikki to listen to my podcast. I need to up the

ante and talk about these novel concepts. If I did that, I would be missing the mark on the

vast majority of my audience and your audience. I completely agree. And from that, um, sort of

what data we know about New Zealand, just for what it's worth, the last, uh, national nutrition

survey was conducted in 2008, 2009. So we are well behind the eight ball in terms of understanding

what people are eating. But in that particular, um, research from a,

from a population perspective, around 16% of our intake was, uh, from protein. But when you looked

at the top source of protein, it was bread and bread based dishes. So it would come from things

like pizza. And, um, I think burgers might've been stuck in there as well, may not have been,

but, but just sort of mixed dishes. So actually quality protein, like the protein that has those

real really bioavailable amino acids that we need was done at around 10% of intake too. So,

and I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I,

I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I.

And the one last thing I'll say before we move on Brandon is I think that with the heightened

messaging around what we were discussing about protein and, and, um, public health messaging,

plus the normalization of small protein portions, when you go out to eat, because it's so expensive.

I think this is the other thing that, that sort of trips people up in terms of their protein intake.

And the last thing you mentioned, me in, and a hundred percent, I see this across

the board as well. We think that eating low protein is a problem that only women have.

100% not the case. So many men are so low on protein as well.

100%. So now that we've established why protein matters and some of the bottlenecks that we see

in people's just normal approach to eating protein, I think we need to tackle the most

common question, which is how much protein do we actually need? Although I get this question

quite often, I think that this question is incomplete unless we ask need for what? Because

there's a really big difference between asking how much protein someone needs to avoid deficiency

and asking how much protein we would recommend to maximize muscle growth or support recovery

or even optimize body composition in someone who's resistant training. So I think that we

need to first start by distinguishing the RDA from the optimal intake for someone with physique or

performance goals. So the current RDA for protein is approximately 0.8 grams per kilogram of body

weight per day. That works out to 0.6 grams per pound, but the RDA wasn't established as the

amount of protein required to maximize muscle growth or to help with body composition or help

with performance.

It's essentially an adequacy requirement and recommendation designed to meet the protein

requirements of nearly all the adults in the general population. However, for our audiences,

I think a more appropriate question would be what protein intake gives a resistant training person

a very high probability of maximizing the muscular adaptations we're trying to create.

And then I think that we have research that indicates that it's a much higher number.

So one of the most influential analysis in this area was a 2018 systematic review,

meta-analysis, and meta-regression from

Wharton and colleagues, which our friend Dr. Kelms is an author on, and it was out of Stu

Phillips' lab. Now, in this study, they pulled 49 resistant training studies involving more than

1,800 participants and found that additional protein supplementation produced greater gains

in fat-free mass and muscle size during resistant training when trainees were at maintenance or in

a calorie surplus. They estimated that the additional benefit for fat-free mass gain

plateaued on average at around 1.62 grams per kilogram per day, which goes to roughly like

0.73 grams per pound.

But there's an important nuance here that often gets overlooked. That 1.6 grams per kilogram isn't

a magical or a physiological threshold where 1.59 grams doesn't work and then automatically 1.61

suddenly maximizes hypertrophy. And there's also some uncertainty around that estimate.

And if you actually look at the analysis itself, there's an upper end of the confidence interval

that extended to 2.2 grams per kilogram per day. And subsequent research hasn't really overturned

that recommendation. If anything, it's strengthened the general confidence interval of the patient

that anywhere between 1.6 grams to 2.2 grams per kilogram per day appears to cover the vast

majority of the hypertrophy benefit for most resistant training populations. Although there

is some secondary data we were discussing this off-air that Greg Knuckles has done where it

really points to 2 to 2.2 grams per kilogram, providing additional insurance for individual

variability. So from a coaching perspective, when someone is resistant training and they're

around maintenance or they're in a surplus, I generally like between 1.6 grams to 2.2 grams per

kilogram per day. And because these requirements and practical preferences can change between

individuals, I like that actual range because I'm looking at someone's training volume,

their total calorie intakes, meaning their dietary budget, their dietary pattern, their protein

quality, their body composition, their appetite, and then also that person's individual food

preferences. So if I have someone that they're budgetarily constrained and they don't actually

really like protein, they don't like high protein foods, I will err more towards that 1.6. Whereas

if I have someone with a rather disappetite like myself, and they've been on a diet for a long time,

really do like high protein foods, I'm going to err more towards that 2.2 grams per kilogram per

day. Now, the reason I keep specifying that it's in maintenance or surplus is that equation changes

once we enter an energy deficit. And I think that's where protein intake recommendations become

a lot more interesting because the amount of protein that is sufficient to maximize muscle

growth when energy availability is high, isn't necessarily the amount that I want to use with

someone that's getting progressively leaner or in a calorie deficit. But before we move into

the next topic, which will be protein during fat

loss, Mikki, where do you tend to land with your total daily protein intake? And what do you think

the fitness industry tends to overcomplicate this by searching for one perfect number and one

ceiling rather than working within an evidence-based range? Yeah. So, I mean, Brandon, I'm with you in

terms of general recommendations for people that I work with. Because I want to be quite realistic

about where they're at in terms of that protein target. Because I want to be both sort of, I want

to be very realistic about where they're at in terms of that protein target. Because again, a lot of people I see are coming to me and their intakes of protein are well, quite a lot closer to where the RDA sits. One thing I will add is that people might be listening to this and thinking, hang on, Brandon's got that wrong. I'm sure that the RDA changed this year to be 1.2 to 1.6.

Yeah, but that's not actually the RDA, is it? That's the dietary reference intake. And they're actually separate and quite different.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

So, just so people know, the RDA is still 0.8 grams per kg body weight, of which that's sort of what you'll find in most countries, including New Zealand. But I generally, if I'm working with a group of people, I've got a few numbers in my head. And the 1.6, if they're in maintenance, and just a general fitness person, I'm with you, that's sort of where I want to sort of keep them. And we'll get into fat loss in a minute. But of course, it depends on who I am.

I am talking to. So, we were chatting off here about endurance athletes, right? Yeah. And so, what we see with endurance athletes is that because of the, I guess, muscle breakdown, we get these micro muscle breakdowns every time we go out training and the recovery process, we actually need a higher amount than that. And not that, you know, endurance athletes are actually an interesting bunch, because you would think that they always over-index on carbohydrate to the extent of really diminishing protein.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There's a lot of endurance athletes who are very lean, who place a lot more emphasis on

protein at the detriment of their carbohydrate intake. And probably this is just because

I've come from that low carb space. So, I do believe I've got a little bit of a bias

with some of the people that I see. But with endurance athletes, what we see is around

1.8 grams is recommended in order to account for the training that they've got and, of

course, the recovery.

and a couple of things though is that of course when you do have those higher training days

it's likely that your carbohydrate intake is going to be a little bit higher as well and so

protein intake may actually fall a little bit so we want to actually have a little bit higher

intake on the recovery days when training load is a little bit less and the body's going through

that adaptation phase and protein intakes for endurance athletes probably sit around 1.4 grams

per kg per day this is what sort of population base data tell us so trying to get up to that 1.8

is I think important and the last thing I will say actually is if you are a an athlete that

is following a more low carb approach then actually your protein targets will have to move

up a little bit because some of those amino acids that are used will be used for energy as well like

if you look at low carb athletes

who do a ton of training the amino acid intake is a little bit or should be a little bit higher

than that so I might put my low carb endurance athletes on two grams per kg per day that

definitely makes sense I think that that is one overlooked area especially when we have to think

about the dynamics between muscle protein synthesis and muscle protein degradation

and if you're having a lot of protein breakdown due to a lot of high level endurance training

you know a lot of essentially eccentric and concentric overload you're going to need

higher amino acid requirements to fulfill that now let's discuss protein recommendations during

fat loss because I think that's where protein recommendations become much more context dependent

and this is the area in which I get the most questions and the reason for that is that a

calorie deficit changes the physiological environment that we're asking the body to

operate in so when we're trying to improve body composition during a fat loss phase the goal

isn't simply to lose weight I always say this to my clients I'm not a body weight coach I'm a body

composition coach so what I'm ultimately trying to accomplish is to maximize the amount of weight

we lose from body fat while maintaining as much lean mass as possible and that becomes progressively

more challenging as the diet continues and as that person gets leaner so when I'm really thinking

about how to design or how to construct a diet and how to manipulate protein intake for a client

the things that I'm looking at are three major variables so there's how large is the deficit

that we're using how lean is the individual and how important is maximal muscle retention

in this particular situation I always have to consider those three because I want

to know how aggressive and how assertive do I have to be with the protein intake that I set this

person at especially because it's the first macronutrient that I'm going to set in a diet

one of the reasons protein becomes increasingly important during a deficit is that energy

restriction can suppress muscle protein synthesis levels and we have multiple control trials that

demonstrate this so first and foremost we have Pasiakos and colleagues that took healthy physically

active adults and compared energy balance with a 20% deficit while protein intake was held at 1.5

grams per kilogram and that's a lot of energy and that's a lot of energy and that's a lot of

energy and that's a lot of energy and that's a lot of energy and that's a lot of energy and that's a lot of energy

per day so right under that 1.6 a threshold and then after 10 days of energy restriction and being

in that 20% deficit which is a very mild deficit they found that muscle protein synthetic rates

were approximately 19% lower than they were at baseline then a red and colleagues who you've

had on your podcast yourself looked at resistant trained individuals undergoing a more aggressive

deficit and they found that resting muscle protein synthesis levels decreased by approximately 27%

but this study also just demonstrated something important they found that by including resistant

training in that energy deficit it helped restore muscle protein synthesis levels closer to where

they were at energy balance at a resting condition and then when they followed that resistant

training session by ingesting a high quality whey protein isolate immediately after the

antibiotic response increased even further and so this study I always remember the title it's

something to do with reduced skeletal muscle muscle protein synthesis levels is rescued by

both resistant training plus protein ingestion and this gets us back to what we established in the

past training gives the body a reason to retain muscle protein and protein provides the amino

acids to support that process and both become increasingly important when we're trying to create

an environment where muscle retention is more difficult now I also want to clarify something

I've probably oversimplified myself in the past you'll sometimes hear that dieting causes muscle

loss because muscle protein breakdown levels dramatically increase but that can only happen

in certain conditions and it's particularly in lean individuals undergoing energy restriction

but the current evidence suggests that the

dominant issue during many calorie deficit conditions is actually the reduction in muscle

protein synthesis levels rather than a universally large increase in muscle protein breakdown so the

more accurate picture is that energy restricting shifts the overall protein balance environment

in a less favorable direction and then resistant training plus sufficient dietary protein intake

help us push back against that where this becomes increasingly important is that someone gets leaner

if I'm coaching someone who begins a fat loss phase with substantial amount of sore body fat

that person has a large energy reserve

of stored you know substrate available compared with when I take a bodybuilder who's six weeks out

from a show who's already dieted for months and is approaching extremely low levels of body fat

those are going to be completely different nutritional and physiological environments

the leaner athlete's going to have less stored energy available which is very similar to what

you see with endurance athletes and they're also going to have accumulated more diet fatigue

and their training is going to be more challenging under those recovery conditions

so they have a much higher likelihood of losing any mass and that's something that's going to be

something we want to avoid so really how I look at this from a coaching perspective is that protein

intake during a death stage scale with the risk of muscle loss and we actually have research that

reinforces this so this past year we had a systematic review and meta regression from

Martin Raffalo, Eric Trexler, and Dr. Eric Helms and they specifically examined dietary protein

intake and fat-free mass outcomes in non-obese resistant trained individuals undergoing energy

restriction so this is very applicable to a lot of my audience and a lot of your audience as well

and what they found was that there was a positive dose response relationship

between protein intake and changes in fat-free mass meaning as protein intake increased

fat-free mass outcomes became more favorable that could mean losing less lean mass but that also

could mean maintaining more of it or in certain circumstances and we discussed this on our body

recomposition podcast it can mean gaining more fat-free mass while losing body fat and the intake

that they found that was a probably associated with approximately neutral fat-free mass change

was around 1.9 grams per kilogram of body weight per day

1.6 being the ceiling when it comes to an energy deficit that 1.9 is essentially the floor so we

have to think about the different environmental conditions from a nutrition perspective

and within their actual analysis what they found was for lean mass retention during an energy

deficit you want protein intake up to 1.9 grams per kilogram of body weight per day

or 2.5 grams per kilogram of fat-free mass and that was what was associated with the least muscle

loss so if i have someone that i'm coaching and they have higher body fat levels and they just

want to make sure that they're maintaining their metabolically active lean mass that is where i'm

going to put them at but for active lean mass gain during a deficit the upper range of that

protein range was up to 3.2 grams per kilogram of body weight per day and that was linearly

associated with greater muscle gain during a deficit so the higher you push protein within

that range the more favorable of a fat-free mass response we have according to the data that we

have now that analysis also looked at some moderating factors what they found was the

relationship between protein intake and changes in fat

mass were stronger in leaner individuals in interventions that lasted longer than four

weeks meaning longer diets and then when protein was scaled to fat-free mass rather than total

body mass and that last you know point really matters in my opinion because for a leaner client

with more muscle mass on their frame scaling protein to fat-free mass gives me a more accurate

target than scaling to body weight alone and it's also easier to do so because when someone's leaner

it's easier to get an estimate of their actual body fat percentage so i want to be careful with

how we interpret that those numbers this doesn't mean that 1.9

grams per kilogram guarantees that you maintain every ounce of lean mass nor does it mean that

3.2 grams per kilogram guarantees that you're going to gain lean mass in a deficit we really

just have to look at these as patterns and then really plot those and look at the relationship

and apply it to the people that we're working with okay so i've got a couple of questions

brandon just before i have a few comments so when you work with clients and you're sort of

assessing their protein intake against their fat-free mass how are your clients measuring

their fat-free mass like are they doing a lot of weight loss or are they doing a lot of weight loss

jumping on a hume scale with some like handles as well are they getting into some sort of bod pod

are they having a dexa like how do you get them to sort of do that because i think and i guess i guess

i'm asking this because people will be listening going how do i even find that number we're not

actually measuring their fat-free mass we're measuring their fat mass and then calculating

their fat-free mass and so what a lot of my clients do is some will go through dax analysis

but other times i'll give you a great example i cannot think of a time in the last five to six

years where i've taken on a program where i've done a lot of weight loss and i've done a lot of

prep compliant that was over 15 body fat so as um rough as this sounds and as unscientific there's

an eye test i've put hundreds of people on stage and you could tell based on a given within a point

or two in terms of the body fat percentage or two so it doesn't have to be that they're exactly hey

i know that this person weighs 200 pounds and they're 15 body fat they could be 14 or they

could be 16 but when you get to lower levels of body fat it's much less likely that you will be

in a guesstimation especially because i have other first of all i have some body composition

analyses on these people at different body fat levels so i'm able to use them as a reference

point and secondarily just doing this over the years when someone has less body fat it's much

easier to tell how close they are to that and it doesn't have to be exactly perfect now where it

gets very confusing and this is not advantageous is when someone has excess body fat so when someone

is a male is 25 to 30 percent it's really difficult to tell is he actually 25 or is he

22 and so that is where i would not use this but when i'm working with leaner athletes

it's more so informed guesstimate based on my experience yeah no i love that you um did clarify

that because you know i work with like groups of people and there is no way to determine i mean

some of them are going to know you know they would have had a dexer to determine their fat mass or

they to be able to do a back calculation or they have their sort of body weight scales at home and

just work on body weight for that reason is that just our population differences and we don't have

i don't have that same clientele that you have that are extremely lean so i typically work on

body weight and and and sometimes i'm working with people who do carry quite a bit of excess

body weight and protein intake they've never really thought about their protein and in fact

the amount that i'm wanting them to eat is just far greater than they're used to so so i will i

them on 1.6 grams per kg body weight knowing that they've got that excess body fat as a buffer

and like i think what is interesting and i i think you've got a podcast coming out with um eric on

this if it hasn't already you know how much not how much muscle is too much muscle but do we always

have to think about like keeping all of the muscle on our body because i think there are people who

are do carry a lot of excess body weight both excess fat and potentially muscle which might

not be functional muscle that

actually the hyper focus on making sure you don't lose any muscle at all during

fat loss for those people might be the wrong thing to focus on but you know this is just

me sort of riffing and i'm curious to hear what you think about that so i i really have to

delineate this when i speak about muscle retention during deficit i am doing every single thing

pulling every lever and and utilizing every vector to make sure that they're maintaining

all of their metabolically active lean mass and that's for multiple things first of all i work

with very physique focused individuals

where it doesn't really matter how much weight they lose it matters what their body composition

looks like at the end for a photo shoot for a contest no one is actually measuring hey what

is your body weight except for the weight restricted and class restricted athletes that i

work with so first thing that's that's the first thing secondarily i work with a lot of people that

have had poor dieting experiences in the past due to going through a little bit too rapid of a fat

loss phase and we've discussed some of the drawbacks of rapid fat loss in one of our previous

master classes and they have been predisposed towards body fat overshooting so we see that

individuals that have lost a precipitous amount of lean mass they are more likely to experience

hyperphagia which is an incessant hunger and a drive to eat until they restore the lean mass

that was lost and we see that in trials dating back to the 1940s with the minnesota semi-starvation

study we see that with army ranger studies with by friedel and nindel and then we also see that

in contest prep case studies so i am very specific making sure that i'm not putting someone in a

disadvantageous position because my goal is not just to get someone lean it's to keep them in

lean now when if we were to talk and i could speak on a podcast i would say that i'm not going to be

that i don't work with as often but i do have experience with in the past are individuals with

excess adiposity and individuals on glp-1 drugs i think that in the context of someone that has

excess adiposity that they are essentially what um mapatoon and colleagues would refer to as

overfat there's a great analysis that 92 of americans are overfat and that is defined

scientifically as excess adipose tissue that is impairing your metabolic health from blood

glucose perspective a lipids perspective a blood pressure

perspective and a waist or comfort so basically the metabolic syndrome criteria and we have um

pretty good data that shows that only 6.2 percent of americans are metabolically healthy that's an

analysis from 2022 or 2023 and with that being said if someone has excess adiposity that is

causing them to have hypertension to have a disease an increased disease risk to have type

two diabetes or insulin resistance in and of itself a lot of times those individuals didn't

get to excess body weights and excess body fats by resistance training and

feeding on protein they were sedentary they were overeating and usually they're they're relying on

diets that are very poor nutrient quality but they're they're essentially undernourished yet

overfed in that specific context we have to think about the actual um mechanical load and the loading

that comes with carrying excess body weight so if you have an extra hundred pounds of body weight

it's almost like carrying a weighted vest now there's some debate about if weighted vests can

cause muscle growth but if you put a hundred pound weighted vest into activities of daily living every

single day for 24 hours you're going to have a lot of weight and you're going to have a lot of

you're going to gain some some skeletal muscle and so a lot of times we actually see if you look at

data it's very interesting if you look at sumo wrestler data or even there's a case study on

bray williams who was a world champion power lifter they actually register with higher lean

body mass than bodybuilders in and of themselves and there's a confounder there because a they

weigh way more so a bodybuilder even at the highest competitive level might be 260 to 300 pounds where

sumo wrestlers can be 350 to 500 and some of these strength athletes and power lifters are in the

secondarily they're not constrained by having to maintain a certain body fat percentage as

bodybuilders are now in those higher body fat those higher adiposity levels you're going to

have some obligatory increase in lean mass so you have to think about it just uh conceptually

if they have gained lean mass in the in the process i want to say the pursuit the process

of gaining excess fat tissue it would make physiological sense that they should be able

to lose that without any deleterious effects during weight loss itself so i think there's

an argument to be made here that if someone is metabolically unhealthy they're going to have to

they have excess adiposity which is limiting their their longevity their vitality their

functionality and they're going to use a intervention that's going to help with long-term

weight loss and by what i mean specifically is not doing a crash diet because most of those

individuals that have excess adiposity that crash that are going to rebound i'm looking at a glp-1

drug whether that's uh semaglutide or that is trisepatide which is a glp-1 and gip i think in

the context of that if they were to lose some amount of lean body mass that would not be um

i would be so much against now here's the issue when i'm looking at physique athletes i'm making

sure that we're maintaining as much metabolically active muscle tissue as possible because that is

a goal that we're trying to get to and they're already metabolically healthy most of the people

i work with are maybe men at the at the most 15 to 20 body fat to start so they're metabolically

healthy and women that are 28 to 35 at the most and we're getting them even leaner in the

context of someone that has the average american the average american male is 28 body fat and the

average american female is 40 body fat

even upwards of that so if i'm talking in the context of that that they are having an immense

amount of fat tissue on their body that is you know fat tissue is i mean it's an endocrine organ

it's selling you out inflammatory signals cytokines and things of that sort it's just an

unhealthy environment to be in if a glp-1 i would always advise that they they weight train but

there's going to be some loss in lean mass and that is confounded by how we actually measure

lean mass and a lot of the studies the initial study that found a great proportion of lean mass

loss is by wilding and colleagues and that was a

2021 study on semiglutide that found that over the course of 68 weeks they lost about 15 percent

of their body weight and they found out of that distribution they took a reanalysis of it and

about 38 to 40 percent of that was lean body mass however i believe that was a dex analysis and we

would not see the same thing if it was done with uh mri when we're actually looking at skeletal

muscle we have to also think about the fact that lean mass especially for someone with excess

adiposity think about the condition of someone with that is 300 plus pounds and 30 to 50 percent

of that they're going to have fat accumulation in the liver they're going to have fat accumulation

in organ tissue they're going to have that accumulation in muscle and so throughout the

process of losing actual body fat they might lose lean mass but it could be from organ tissue it

could be from intestinal mass it's going to be a ton from glycogen it's going to be a ton from

um gut residue so how we measure these things isn't as fine-toothed as some of this data or

some of the interpretations would lead you to believe and i also think that in the case of

someone that their greatest mortality risk

is excess body fat that we don't have to worry about them losing lean mass i would always advise

that some of the resistance genes during that process they minimize lean mass loss but it's a

completely different population so i the message that i would send to my audience is going to be

different than what i would if i was doing public health messaging and i said listen we have an

obesity epidemic which we do 73 plus percent of americans are over eight or obese i'm not working

with that population but if i had to give a general presentation on metabolic health status and

losing body fat and

GLP-1s were in the conversation i actually will be presenting next year at a medical conference

um like kind of bridging the gap between uh coaches and clinicians and i will most likely

present some of this data and for them to not be scared of some degree of lean mass loss

no no that's excellent brandon because um these are the conversations that i have with with people

every day just just sort of like reassure them that actually you know it's it's if you yeah all

of the things that you said i don't think i really need to add too much more the one last thing i will

add before we go is that i think it's a really good question and i think it's a really good question

move on which i think is really interesting and i've never we've mentioned it on a podcast before

but it's worth putting in our protein masterclass because this is a thought process of again

professor don layman working doing a bunch of protein studies he's never published it but he

said it numerous times and indeed said it on a podcast i did with him that his minimum floor

of protein is 100 grams a day below that when he sees a woman on 90 um 85 90 grams of protein

then that's when some of those metabolic markers are going to start to show up and i think that's

a really good question and i think it's a really good question and i think it's a really good question

start they're just not improved but 100 grams is the floor by which he then starts seeing

um an improvement in their cholesterol profile an improvement in insulin and glucose a shift

in visceral fat i believe that was also added and of course blood pressure as well so and i think

the reason why i why i want to mention that is because some people absolutely want to optimize

and and have the ability to optimize yet some people they're like okay look just what do i have

to do i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know

and i and i think i really want to just sort of reassure people that you know there is a range

of numbers that we can work with here depending on i guess where you're starting from 100 i think

that that's a great heuristic to give people an easy um access essentially so that the barrier

to entry isn't too high i will tell you personally i am an optimizer make you know me personally this

is who i am my personality i'm a perfectionist and that is what people come to me for however

i will tell you this quite frankly from a coaching perspective and a practical

perspective there's many times a woman comes to me she's eating 80 grams of protein but for her

body weight she really needs to eat 140 i will tell you straight out the bat i'm not bringing

her from 75 to 80 grams per day to 140 or 150 um i am stair-stepping her in there i'm seeing where

i can add protein into her day whether that be through shakes whether that through just a little

bit more inclusions oftentimes it's in her earlier meals of the day she thinks one egg and some toast

is a serving of protein it is not so i'm including you know some egg whites in that or i'm trying to

infuse um some some hard-boiled eggs or i'm putting some greek yogurt or something of that

sort and i'm trying to really bridge the gap i always say this um from a practical programming

perspective i know the research inside and out but knowledge without application is useless and

also knowledge that isn't applied in the right context to the right person is useless and so

with that being said what i try to do is i bridge the gap between what is evidence-based and also

optimal for the goals based on the context of the situation the person i'm dealing with the

timeline that we have but also what's practical for their lifestyle so if i have someone that's

50 to 70 grams under their protein threshold that we would need to maximize things i'm not going to

just bump them up right off the bat oftentimes that would lead to first of all gastrointestinal

distress it would probably lead to like early satiety in terms of like their meals and on

themselves it would lead to a completely disparate pattern of actual meal prep where they would be a

lot of times discouraged and a big thing with training and i and i think i could say this or

a big thing with coaching i can say this because i actually spent years as a coach and i've been

the one number one mistake i used to see with pts that were around me when i used to manage other

personal trainers in a gym was that in the first session they really wanted to leave a lasting

impression and often they scared off that client what i really tried to do and believe me i made

that mistake where i kind of like went for broke and like really put people through the ringer their

first session thinking i was giving them a good workout but all i did was exhaust them and scare

them off once i get a little bit more experience and it works with you know dozens and dozens of

the first session in the second session the third session they build upon each other but not only

that i need that that first session allows them to gain some type of autonomy it gains some type of

agency and their self-confidence has increased so i gave them less than they needed or less than

they actually could do so that they succeeded and we know that a lot of people think that motivation

is what drives us to goal pursuit and really it's momentum when you build momentum and you

get results and you see those results that in and of

itself builds motivation and so that was a process that i use from a training perspective but i've

also found that in certain contexts yeah i work with a lot of high achievers i work with a lot

of competitive athletes when someone comes to me and they're like hey man i get a year to turn pro

i'm going for broke on everything i'm pulling every lever in the book but if i have someone

and it's just it's not really my demographic but they come to me we vibe and i know that i can get

them better off than they are currently but i also know that i have the potential to scare them away

if i if i go for all the optimization

i'm going to meet them in the middle amazing brandon that tells me that at some point you're

probably going to be a perfect coach for me because i would absolutely fall into that

i'm waiting for this 50th birthday uh you know um transformation that's all i'm saying we're

getting a photo shoot going Mikki the audience here first so um now we'll move on um from the

perspective of protein with muscle growth muscle retention i think that one thing that would be

really good is to discuss protein and satiety and metabolic health so another reason that protein

is so important and it's so out of integers especially to prioritize in the diet construction

with clients is it's the most satiating macronutrient so high protein diets can help

improve fullness manage hunger and maintain a calorie deficit um easier in in terms of your

actual ability to adhere to it now one study i always think about when i think about the practical

value of higher protein diets comes from eric helms master's thesis so in that study eric took

resistant tree men during two short bouts of a fairly aggressive energy deficit and in one

condition they consumed a lot of protein and satiety and metabolic health so in that study

they consumed approximately 1.6 grams per kilogram per day and in the other they consumed 2.8 grams

per kilogram per day in the condition in which they had higher protein it takes that 2.8 grams

per kilogram per day they reported less diet related fatigue uh less stress less diet

satisfaction and generally more favorable mood related outcomes and that's really relevant from

a coaching perspective because one of the biggest threats to a successful fat loss phase isn't

whether the diet works physiologically or on paper it's whether the person can continue executing

it or not and so that's one of the biggest threats to a successful fat loss phase is whether the

diet works physiologically or on paper it's whether the person can continue executing it because

adherence is often the bottleneck so if a higher protein intake helps someone feel more satisfied

and makes that diet processing process easier that's valuable even if protein isn't magically

you know accelerating the fat loss process but i think that we also have to take into

consideration that protein is often valued due to its satiety but we also have to think that

protein is the most satiating macronutrient that does not mean that it's the most satiating food

that we can eat because we don't eat isolated macronutrients i always say this we don't eat

macros in which this is why i very rarely you'll never like see on a plane of mine it's just macros

and i also always try to get across like we don't eat macros we eat food and we eat foods and those

foods make up meals and those meals make up our entire diet and the amount of protein in a food

or in a meal is not the only thing determining how filling that food would be so i always think

when i think about satiety i think about these overarching um construct i think about what i

refer to as structural satiety and really one of the best studies that we have on that is by

polting colleagues which created the satiety index where they looked at 38 different foods

and they standardized the amounts of each and they found that things like boiled potatoes were

much higher in the satiety index than things like croissants but really when it comes down to it

they found that there were certain characteristics that were associated with satiety and we found

that protein was positively correlated with fullness but so were fiber water content low

energy density and then the physical weight or volume of a food and so when it really comes down

to it protein intake

is very advantageous from a macronutrient perspective and leveraging it to help with

satiety but we also have to look at the entire diet as a whole we have to look at every food

that we include every meal that we include and kind of make it so that we have a combination

of characteristics that are going to lead someone to be more full and less likely to give into hunger

or really suffer with hunger although hunger is inherent in the fat loss process but really how

i look at it is i like to think of protein is a useful addition within a meal but i don't think

i'm looking at protein intake fiber intake food volume i'm trying to get some water rich foods or

water preloading and then lower energy density it's never things in isolation so although protein

is the most satiating macronutrient i really try to get across the fact that we can't just stop

there because if that was the case we would just drink protein shakes and that would be it and we

know that solid foods are much more satiating than uh liquid foods and we also know that that would

not be an approach that would be advantageous for most so Mikki i would love to get your thoughts

on both the satiety value and the protein intake so i'm going to stop there and i'll see you in the

of protein in terms of its effects on appetite regulation and then also a little bit on metabolic

health because i know that's something that you're very well versed in yeah no perfect brandon and so

i 100 agree with all of those factors that impact on satiety and again i think this you know when

all you hear is that protein is so satisfying this is why people are sort of and we need more

protein you know there is that um the the proteinization of particular foods this is where

people are coming and they're grabbing off the shelf the the protein chip

protein bars um the you know things that have added protein thinking that they're going to be

somehow magically more full but actually these are just still highly processed refined foods a lot of

time doesn't mean that you can't include them but you cannot rely on them to in a to help with

satiety and hunger overall a lot of these are still hyper palatable and you can still overeat

and of course you mentioned a whole bunch of the factors that impact on satiety there's

i wonder how many people out there really would just love a boiled potato or let's say a chicken

breast i would actually like give me those foods and i'd be like totally fine but i know that

they're not necessarily um foods which uh would bring a lot of people joy but i um but you know

there are features of those foods of course which make them more satisfying you mentioned energy

density and this is something which i feel like a lot of uh quote unquote uh healthy people get

wrong and particularly i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't

women i see that they fill their plates with like salad leaves and cucumber and celery and all these

very low density foods and they might hit 40 grams of protein with a chicken breast but there's no

fat on there and there's no there's there's no starch and i think just that combination of that

mixed meal so they're just under eating calories so they're wondering why their their stomach is

full yet they're still not satisfied and i think for some people they can almost um

take that volume i guess the volume of food to the to to a different level which isn't actually

helpful for their overall sort of comfort or success so i think having a suit clearly energy

density does impact on satiety as well and you just have to have an appropriate sort of energy

density in that meal also um one other thing i will say about sort of satiety is is probably just

you know meal timing in terms of the routine that you're into with meals

like your body is anticipatory when it comes to when you eat and the body loves routine and so

if someone is excessively hungry um and they're very chaotic with meal timing it's because your

body doesn't know like you know am i going to get breakfast today is that snack coming so um part of

the thing and i know that we've spoken about this before brandon is that actually being consistent

with meal timing can be really helpful if you do struggle with with that overall hunger response as

well um and then just for those of you who don't know what satiety is it's actually a very important

thing to remember when you're eating protein it's a it's a it's i would say minor in terms of the big

scheme of energy expenditure but it does impact on energy expenditure and therefore it's easier to

well not easier but it will have some consequence to overall um

daily energy expenditure your ability to create a deficit that of course impacts on a on a bunch

of things as well in terms of metabolic health i mentioned um that sort of base number that

professor don layman talks about but also just from a practical perspective because of proteins

effect on blood sugar keeping it much more stable you're going to have a much you're not going to

have those same sort of um troughs and peaks that you get from a meal that is just either too that

is you know too low in protein too high in sort of refined carbohydrate that drives those cravings

that drives your your i suppose your body stress response to get more food in the system to prevent

your blood sugar from dropping too low as well so in addition to what i mentioned with don layman i

think that the blood sugar stability of protein can't be overlooked yeah what's very interesting

about that is there's a lot of people who are who are who are who are who are who are who are

two effects of that first and foremost there's something called i believe it may be turned

differently now when i learned it in a biochemistry class it was the legacy effects meaning that if you

eat protein upon breakfast you have blunted blood glucose responses to your second meal you don't

see as high of a postprandial increase in blood glucose and also with that concomitantly you get

less of an insulin response to that meal so it's just better for overall blood sugar regulation

then we also have different other data very um interesting there's a great study that looks at

a 30 percent

protein or so a high protein diet that was 30 percent of energy intake from protein

versus the mediterranean diet on metabolic health outcomes and they actually found that the higher

protein diet was more advantageous from a blood glucose regulation a glycemic variability or

glycemic control perspective and then in a fasting insulin perspective over a long

longitudinal study and that's very interesting to me because the mediterranean diet is one of the

most consistently evidence-based recommendations but also

the most you know compelling evidence for being really good for metabolic health it's anti-inflammatory

it's filled with polyphenols and vitamins and nutrients and so a lot of times that in and of

itself moving to a more mediterranean dietary pattern improves insulin sensitivity and decreases

insulin resistance but we find that a well-constructed diet that's also very high in

protein intake can have the same or even better effects so i think that in totality protein intake

not only helps with muscle retention and muscle growth and also fat loss and satiety but also

helps in metabolic health so i think that's a really good study and i think that's a really good

study all in one it's it's um kind of like a home run when you really prioritize protein as your

first micronutrient and then you move on to the rest of the diet now the next area that i want to

get into is protein quality because once we've established how much total protein someone needs

the obvious question that i get at least is does it matter where that protein comes from and the

answer is yes but probably not as much as most people think because really when it comes down

to it the top priority needs to be total daily protein intake if that's sufficiently high we

about the minute details of protein quality. But when we do discuss protein quality,

there are really two things that I care about. I care about the essential amino acid profile

and then how well that protein is digested and absorbed. So first and foremost, when it comes

to essential amino acids, there are nine essential amino acids that we can't synthesize in sufficient

qualities ourselves. So we need to obtain them through our diet. And from a muscle growth

perspective, leucine would be the essential amino acid that would get the most attention because it

plays a critical role in activating anabolic signaling through pathways, including mTOR.

And this is why leucine is often described as the anabolic trigger, but by itself,

it can't build muscle. And so really the analogy that I like to use, I used to use this in sports

nutrition presentations when I was working in the supplement industry, because I would always be

essentially in conferences where a brand would only sell branched chains. And then I sold an

essential amino acid, and I would have to give a comparison as to the advantages of going with

the essential amino acids over the branched chains, despite the essentials,

being much more expensive. So imagine we're talking about the science, but then we're also

talking the appeal to the actual consumer. And the analogy that I like to use is that leucine

can tell the construction crew to start working, but we still need all the building materials

required to actually construct something. And those building materials are provided by the

complete pool of essential amino acids. So leucine helps trigger the signal, and the complete EAA

profile provides the material. And that's where I really used to try to get to clientele,

as well as the accounts that I worked with, specifically bodybuilding.com,

because one of my top competitors was a BCA product. And I said, listen, BCAs can help with

decreasing muscle degradation. And that was actually before the Wolf data. Robert Wolf

kind of disproved BCAs. So we're talking 2015 at this point. But I would always tell them that

from a muscle protein synthetic effect perspective, most of the data was in EAAs, and it was more

advantageous to have that complete complementary amino acid profile where you had all nine essential

amino acids. So Mikki, as we dig in a little bit more into protein quality, I'd love to get

on this topic, because plant versus animal protein is obviously where the conversation becomes very

polarized. So when you're looking at the research and working with clients, how much of an emphasis

do you place on the protein source once someone is already consuming an adequate total amount of

protein? Well, it is interesting, Brandon, because we know that in young people, if they're eating

enough protein and their resistance training, they can actually get the same gain in lean mass,

as omnivores can over a period of time. So there's a study, and you know me in studies,

you're much better at pulling it out. But I think it's like heavier, Lorraine, have I got that name

right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly that, right. And so that study sort of showed that if you give

someone the soy supplementation over a 12-week period and they're plant-based, soy was the

sort of predominant supplementation technique. At one point, you're going to have a lot of protein

six grams per kg body weight. They were able to have the same muscle growth as omnivores over 12

weeks. And then also there was another study that looked at microprotein. And I think microprotein is

what corn is made out of. I don't know if you know that. Yep, that's right. It's very hard to source

and it's very expensive though. Oh, that's interesting. See, I don't eat that stuff, so I

wouldn't have known. So a microprotein-rich vegan diet at about two grams per kg body weight, which

was also matched with omnivores.

They had a, there was a similar finding with regards to gain in lean mass and muscle volume

and fiber size over 10 weeks with high volume training. So, and if anyone's interested, I think

that was Montaigne was the author of that trial. So I guess what this shows us is that when we're

looking at the ability for a vegan diet to retain and improve muscle mass gains, like it is possible.

So in a practical sort of clinical trial situation, it is possible to do. I just, but my, my clinician

head goes to, you know, is that actually what people are doing out there when it comes to

protein intakes and, and, um, uh, into protein and being able to maximize quality, I think is a really

important feature for someone who is following a plant-based approach. 100%. I think that one

confounder, I don't remember. I don't remember. I don't remember. I don't remember. I don't remember.

I don't remember the Montaigne data. I do remember the heavy Lorraine data because I included in the

presentation a few years ago. That's a 2021 study, if I'm not mistaken. And in that study in and of

itself, they actually use soy protein isolate as a replacement to get them up to the actual

threshold. And they also, there was essentially a running period where these were habitual vegans

versus habitual omnivores. So it wasn't that they took individuals that had already been omnivores

and switched them to a vegan diet to see if there was advantageous or disadvantageous effects. But

as you mentioned, when total protein intake was

standardized at 1.6 grams per kilogram per day, and the vegan group utilized soy protein isolate,

which is a very high quality protein. If we actually look at the early data, even when

there was some dispute between, um, vegan sources of protein versus omnivore or animal sources of

protein, we always saw that soy favored really well out of all the actual protein products that

were vegan based in comparison, even to whey or to casein protein. So there's our research. I know

I'm pretty sure Lane Norton had done some research actually looking at a comparison of this. And he

also looked at wheat protein, which scored really fucking low. Um, but in totality, when you have

sufficient dietary protein intake in total, you can be in a position where you can gain lean mass.

The other confounder here is that a lot of times some of these research studies done in plant-based

individuals versus omnivores or animal versus plant proteins, they're new to resistant training.

So there is a new vegans effect. Um, I have yet to looked in, I would have to look into this and

you would be more likely to see that. So I would have to look into this and you would be more likely to

because I personally don't work with vegans. Um, it's just not my area of expertise. I would

love to see resistant train studies, equating protein intake and standardizing resistant

training sessions in advanced trainees and see if that same outcome is there. Or if we go back to

the older data, which used to show that vegans need about 20% more protein to get an equivalent

muscle protein synthetic effect as compared to animal proteins. I don't think the data is there,

but it would be interesting to see. Yeah. And you know, I,

when I was just looking at this and briefly, I remember in the top of my head, thinking hearing

people say that vegans needed sort of 30% more protein. So, so a little bit higher than what

you remember, but just different people saying different things, but actually, um, what I've

got here in front of me is about 10 to 20% as a buffer for protein intake. Now, Brandon, I have

a question for you actually. Well, what I've got to comment first is that we both know, and people

on social media will see plant-based, um, resistance,

training, um, people do it looking completely jacked and they're vegan. So of course, you know,

if you're optimizing and you've got all of the necessary supplements, you can absolutely retain

and build muscle mass to the same extent as someone who's omnivore, right? So I think we

probably have, you know, both see people on social media a bit like that. I guess my question is,

is that, you know, a lot of those plant-based sources of even isolated proteins, like your

protein, like very common, um, uh, pea protein, and then you've got the rice,

pea blend that might have a complete amino acid profile, but still no leucine. So you're a man

that's been in the supplement industry. Why is it that plant, plant-based proteins don't just like

add extra leucine in to just up the leucine in their products or do, or are there products out

there that do that, that I've just yet to come across? So two things, there are products that

actually include an additional source of leucine. So there are there, uh, usually it's pea rice

blends, which actually a very similar profile to, to way I slip when you actually look comparatively,

uh, that would be a very similar profile to, to way I slip when you actually look comparatively.

That would be, um, they call that vegan's way essentially. So, um, in the supplement

industry, that was what we would refer to it. There are products that are infused with leucine

or they'll use like a dilucine or another derivative of leucine itself. Sometimes it's

HMB, which is a leucine metabolite. Um, however, one of the issues from a manufacturing perspective

with that is a vegan proteins are very difficult to flavor and leucine is a very bitter powder

end of itself. So that's one confounder. The second confounder is how we would actually get

a protein score from that, not a PDAS score, but actually when you measure protein from a

manufacturing perspective, if you have any confounders, especially an increase in amino

acids, it will register on the label as higher protein intake. And that's where we would,

there used to be something we would call amino spiking where individuals would put

very cheap amino acids into a product and it would register in the actual assays,

even in third-party independent testing, as say the product said it was 25 grams of protein,

but it really was 17.

But due to the amino acid content, it was actually able to raise it up just based in the raw

assays. So it could be a conflict of interest. I don't know why more brands do it. I worked at a

company and we did do a plant baseline. Uh, initially it was vegetarian based. Then it

became vegan and kosher. And we did do a rice pea blend. Um, but I remember that having approximately

per serving of that protein, it was higher in calories though. So I will say that higher in

carbohydrates, higher in dietary fat to have a smoother like texture, because it was very gritty

at first.

I'm going to match it to the same profile from a protein and a carbohydrate and fat perspective

as the isolate. But we did have, I believe it was two to 2.5 grams per serving. So in one scoop.

So if you had to use a double scoop, which many people would, because per serving, I believe it

was 20 grams of protein, whereas our way was 25. So if you needed a 40 gram bolus, like one of us

would use, I would eat probably 60 grams. So three scoops, you would probably utilize 40 grams per,

per meal. Uh, you would use two and you would get over that leucine threshold. However,

there's newer data that shows that the leucine threshold is lower than the protein threshold.

Isn't as applicable to younger adults. And that really, we only need to exceed the leucine

threshold for older adults. So I don't know. I still go back to like my early biochemistry,

my early like classes that get at least 2.5 to three grams per serving. I think that's a good

heuristic in looking at the actual composition of protein sources and saying, is this a high

leucine protein source? Um, but I don't know if we have to live and die by that because the best way

that's ever been explained to me as Eric Helms was explaining why we don't need complimentary

amino acids within a vegan diet. So I think that's a good heuristic in looking at the actual

vegan base side, or even if you're doing a vegetarian or your flexitarian, where you don't

need to combine rice and beans, or you don't need to combine, you know, one I used to use back in

the day when I worked with vegetarians or vegans was peanut butter and bread. You know, these are

complimentary amino acid sources. Um, the reason we don't need to do that is you have to think

about the time course of digestion, especially with these fiber containing products, how Eric

explained it to me is it's essentially like a Congo line. That's the best way he's ever put it.

So essentially you have these amino acids, uh, essentially in the circulation for longer periods

of time.

Over the course of a 24 hour day, you're getting all of the essential amino acids

that are necessary, all the complete amino acids that are necessary for stimulating muscle protein

synthesis. And as long as you're exceeding that threshold of like the lower barrier,

so 1.6 or greater, uh, you should be sufficient. The one confounder here,

and this is not about muscle growth, but it is about muscle retention during a fat loss phase

is often with vegan diets because of the high, uh, you know, obviously carbohydrate content

and sometimes dietary fat content. They can often be constrained from an energy budget

perspective.

So it's much harder to get very lean while maintaining all your muscle mass and getting

sufficient protein because you have to give, there's a trade-off here or there,

where you either have to dramatically decrease dietary fat or dramatically decrease

carbohydrates, which really they can't do. So they're kind of like with a higher carb diet

and it's either we sacrifice fat or we sacrifice dietary protein. And it's mostly just a carb based

diet plus the energy substrate. So I think there's some limitations there. I'm not saying it's

impossible. It's just not a population. I used to work with them earlier in my career. It's just

not something that I've really dialed in.

And, um, really developed an expertise or an interest in to be honest.

Yeah, no, I, I would be on similar, although I do work with plant-based people, probably because

there's a lot of plant-based people in the endurance space actually. Uh, and just a couple

of things I, I ensure with them is that they're not relying on something like hemp for their

protein powder because that's getting popular. And there are this sort of, there's just emerging

just these different, um, plant-based products that are now sort of protein powders, like

different beans are being used and they just have different profiles, which mean that if someone

were to use it, then I think hemp has maybe 17 grams of protein per serve. So it's got more fat.

It's got a little bit more carbohydrate, but it's definitely higher in calories. And of course,

because I'm working with a lot of people in fat loss, it's, it's not my favorite. So, you know,

these are some things I, some things I think about and what I recommend my plant-based people do is

just add an essential amino acid powder within a, within a meal, you know, within that sort of 60

minutes of eating.

Your meal, let's get you having like an essential amino acid powder. Like I like one that's got the

one that I like. And in fact, I have myself is three and a half grams of leucine actually,

which is fairly high.

But are you using a vegan source?

I don't believe so.

Of amino acids.

I don't believe so.

Because they come from bird feathers.

Amino acids are generally, yeah, constructed when you, we use them in the, the supplement

industry. If you're not getting a vegan based, um, amino acid, you are getting essentially this,

this is coming from bird feathers.

Well, I'm going to check that out.

So you're,

you're a fun fact for the day.

That is fun. Um, and, and actually, but Brandon, to your point about that leucine threshold.

So I, I know the literature. I know that the younger people, we don't necessarily need to

worry about it as much. I don't know why I said we, I mean, would we, I mean, you might be still

in that. I'm probably 10 years older than you are. Uh, we've got younger people research and

we've got older people. We've got sort of 65 and above, but there's no one doing research in the

mid forties. And so to your point, I'm similar to you. I'm like, well,

I often, I say to people, look, there's no research in people our age, but I would like you

to have or aim for this amount of protein in a meal or, you know, this type of product uses type

of product here because it does have those essential amino acids. Because I think to

sort of err on the side of, um, covering your bases is, is a safer bet than having this sort

of like really minimum threshold to shoot for.

100%. I'm always going to hedge my bets and put people, I like utilizing a lot of things as

insurance policy. I don't like utilizing a lot of things as insurance policy. I don't like utilizing

a lot of things as insurance policy. I don't like utilizing a lot of things as insurance policy.

It may not be necessary, but it could be useful and beneficial, and it causes no negative ramifications or downstream consequences.

I'm all in.

So that's the same thing with utilizing higher dietary protein, higher protein quality, making sure that each meal is hitting a leucine threshold, making sure that we're not skipping on protein and having a skewed distribution where it's very low in the morning and very high in the evening.

And actually, that leads us to our next topic because we've covered protein intake and protein quality.

But now we need to go into the details where a lot of people spend a lot of time arguing.

So how much protein can we use in one meal?

How many protein meals do we need per day?

And how important is protein timing?

So I'll start with the first most common myth, which is that your body can only absorb 20 to 30 grams of protein at once.

And that's simply not true.

Your body can digest and utilize substantially more than 20 to 30 grams of protein per meal.

And a really interesting study that we have that looks at this was a 2023 study by Tromelin and colleagues.

And they demonstrated just how oversimplified the idea of a strict per meal protein ceiling is.

So in this study.

They took resistant-train participants, and they had them do a resistant-train session in the morning.

And then they gave them either 25 grams or 100 grams of milk protein.

The 100-gram dose produced a larger and considerably more prolonged anabolic response where it lasted for like 12 hours.

And it included greater amino acid incorporation into tissue and greater muscle protein synthesis rates over an extended measurement period.

So the idea that anything above, say, 30 or 40 grams is wasted doesn't hold up.

But I also don't want people to take that to its extreme.

I did a full podcast deep dive on that Tromelin study right when it came out with Dr. Scott Stevenson.

And then I got a lot of people that were almost utilizing that as a rationale to do intermittent fasting, like one meal per day, like the OMAD diet.

And I don't want you to get the idea that you can just eat 100 grams of protein once per day or twice per day because this was an acute study.

So it tells us that the body can digest and utilize a much larger protein serving than we previously gave it credit for.

But it doesn't establish that two enormous meals per day maximize long-term hypertrophy.

Better than distributing the same protein across several meals.

And that's where protein distribution comes in.

We have both acute and then some longer-term data suggesting that extremely skewed protein distributions,

which is really what we see in the States where someone eats very little protein for most of the day and then consumes nearly all of it for dinner,

may not be ideal for maximizing muscle growth.

And the opposite extreme isn't the case either.

So you don't need to eat protein every two hours.

So really, when we look at the research comparing approximately three versus six significant protein feedings per day,

we don't see any additional hypertrophy benefit from either one.

We don't see pushing frequency higher to give an advantageous effect, nor pushing, you know, going to three meals per day, giving a disadvantageous effect.

It's really about getting total protein intake.

Really, most of the data shows at least three meals per day is sufficient to maximize muscle growth.

So my general recommendation and what I do with most of my clients is I like to go between three to five protein-anchored meals per day.

And I really like utilizing a heuristic I got from Alan Aragon during one of the presentations that I did with.

And I really like utilizing a heuristic I got from Alan Aragon during one of the presentations that I did with.

And I really like utilizing a heuristic I got from Alan Aragon during one of the presentations that I did with.

And that was to aim for a starting point of 0.4 to 0.55 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight per meal.

And that was to aim for a starting point of 0.4 to 0.55 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight per meal.

So let's do the math on that.

If you eat four meals per day and you go to the lower end of that threshold, you hit 1.6 grams per day.

If you go to the upper end of the threshold and you only eat four meals, you get 2.2 grams per day.

And it can dose escalate as your meals go higher or the range in which you use goes a little bit higher.

And really, the goal is to create multiple robust protein exposures across the day without forcing someone to eat more protein.

And really, the goal is to create multiple robust protein exposures across the day without forcing someone to eat more protein.

Like a bodybuilder, which is where I came from.

I initially was eating six meals per day.

Then I got myself into a five-meal per day.

Now I eat four meals per day.

And it's a lot more conducive for my lifestyle, my schedule.

But also, it's put me in a position where I can still maximize muscle protein synthesis.

I have sufficient boluses of protein four times per day.

So it keeps me sufficiently fueled and satiated.

But it also doesn't make it so that I'm eating on a clock because that was something that, A, it was just really non-conducive for my life.

Like most of the days that I was competing,

Like most of the days that I was competing,

Like most of the days that I was competing,

I was eating six times per day.

But when I was really trying to push my body weight up, I got up to over 250 pounds at one time.

I was eating eight times per day, Mikki.

And I was eating a meal in the middle of the night.

I had a protein shake on top of my toilet, as embarrassing as that is.

And I don't want people to think that that's a necessity because that's what a bodybuilding dogma that was about protein timing or protein distribution and meal frequency back in the day.

And we see data that does not, the data does not confirm that.

Now, the last area that I think we should touch on real quickly is protein timing.

And this is another area where I think the pendulum has swung too high.

The pendulum has swung too far in both directions.

You know, if I go back to my bodybuilding days in the early 2000s, it was, you had to eat protein, especially a protein shake, 30 minutes after training, or you missed the anabolic window.

And that's not accurate.

We see that resistant training increases muscle protein synthesis and enhances the muscle sensitivity to amino acids for several hours after training.

So the anabolic window is considerably wider than 30 minutes.

But then the reaction to it became protein timing doesn't matter at all.

And that was something that got mis-extrapolated by a review by Bradshaw and others.

Bradshaw and Phil and Alan Aragon, that they showed that protein timing was, it wasn't the bee's knees.

You didn't have to do it within 30 to 60 minutes.

And then people just threw protein timing out the door and said, eat it whenever.

I don't think that's the best interpretation either.

Really, what I like to think about protein timing as is you need to have synchronization within your day where it aligns with your schedule, but also around the training parameter, the training window.

But it's not a stopwatch.

It's not something that you have to be, I used to literally have a timer that would go off.

You don't need to do that.

And really, when we look at it, when you hear that window analogy,

it's better to think of as a garage door and that's something from Sean Aron.

I've seen him present on that, but he has a great review on protein and nutrient timing, looking at it as a garage door rather than a window.

So really what we have to stop considering is when did you just finish your workout and when did you finish your last set?

And really you have to think about when did I last eat protein?

Because if you had a substantial meal containing 40 grams of high quality protein, 60 minutes before training, and you do an hour workout, you're still digesting, you're absorbing those amino acids during and after that session.

So there's literally no.

Reason to have urgency to sprint to your locker room and slam protein shake with your last protein team meal was six hours ago, you train for 90 minutes, and now you're planning to wait a couple of hours.

And this is something I encountered with women where they go from a fasting state, they train fasted, and then they want to wait until lunch to eat.

You're giving, you're, you're doing yourself a disservice.

And that's where you really should utilize an immediate post-workout protein.

We actually see us heightened sensitivity amino acids.

If you train fasted, when you have a protein shake post-workout.

So I really think that this is the best way to conceptualize this is when.

Your resistance training or your training in general, I want it to be essentially a bookend.

I want protein before training and after training, but I don't want people that can be within a few hours, one to three hours within each side of that training window, that Perry workout window.

But I don't want people to get neurotic about thinking that they have to eat protein immediately and that their gains are going to be diminished or gone if they don't do so.

A hundred percent agree with that.

Brandon.

Perfect.

Do you have anything else when it comes to you?

Like, is there anything else?

Yeah.

I think that's a really good question.

I think that's a really good question.

I think that's a really good question.

When it comes to protein distribution and timing, once someone has already hit an adequate protein intake.

The only other thing I would add is, is, and you actually covered it in your last sentence is that, um, that opportunity to get protein.

And I think this is where some people struggle with regards to giving the amount of protein that they need.

And that's where it is convenient to have protein, a protein shake after a workout, because you are going to get an additional 25 grams.

And therefore that is going to make.

You're more likely to hit your protein goals, but that, but there, to your point, there is nothing magical about that window.

And, and I guess the only other thing I would, I would, uh, double down on is that pre sort of protein fueling and an.

Early morning before a workout as well.

So I think that's an, a really important conversation I have with a lot of people, particularly if they're in a calorie deficit, actually.

Yeah, I think that's incredibly advantageous.

I want at least amino acid availability going into a resistance training session.

So they get out of that degradation state.

Um, prior to training, but we also have research in endurance training where we don't see fat oxidation suppress when utilizing protein pre facet cardio.

So there's John Holly used to do this work where it was like train low, uh, compete high and models like that.

You would know this much better than I do.

I remember like the biochemistry of it, um, where they would essentially fast to get some, uh, mitochondrial and aerobic adaptations, especially in a fast, uh, facet state, because we see that you will have an increase in that oxidation.

But I believe Jeff, Jeff Roth's trial has done some work on protein.

Pre cardio where it doesn't suppress fatty acid oxidation, there's another study that actually comes from the, the supplement industry where they did that as well with a way isolate, and they did not see a suppression of fatty acid oxidation.

So even if you're an endurance trainer and you're someone that you don't want a full stomach, you also want the benefits from a fat oxidation perspective.

You want to become a better fat burner.

You want better metabolic flexibility.

You could utilize a protein shake prior to your training session in and of itself.

Yeah.

And that's how I chat to a lot of my athletes about as well, because there'll be certain sessions.

We usually.

You do want to, um, work on that fat metabolism and then there'll be other sessions where actually you want to hit higher intensities.

You're going for longer, like depending on the, on the goal of the session or the, I guess the periodization of your training program.

So, uh, to finish this discussion, I want to take everything that we've covered so far and really get into the practical perspective, because that's what we do best.

Um, because really what I want to do is I don't want someone to listen to this, get all the information and walk away thinking that there's one perfect protein number that applies to every person in every.

Situation, you know, as we've discussed, the range is going to change, depending on the goal, the person's energy status or energy availability, their training demands, their body composition, and also the risk and tolerance of risk of losing muscle mass.

So Mikki, let's run through a few different scenarios and give people some practical starting points.

I'm going to take the intake for muscle growth, for body recomp, for fat loss and very lean athletes.

And then I'm going to turn the mic over to you and you will take over the protein intake recommendations for endurance athletes, older adults, and vegans.

So when it comes to.

Protein, we're going to take the intake for muscle growth, for body recomp, for fat loss and very lean athletes.

And then I'm going to take the intake for muscle growth, for body recomp, for fat loss and very lean athletes.

So when it comes to protein, we're going to take the intake for muscle growth, for body recomp, for fat loss and very lean athletes.

If they're resistant training and a calorie surplus with the primary goal of building muscle, I would generally advise between a range of 1.6 to 2.2 grams per kilogram per day.

And realistically, I want someone around two grams per kilogram per day, because I really believe that that's going to cover the overwhelming majority of the benefit for most people.

And that is due to the fact that calories are abundant during a building phase, or you're in maintenance or in a surplus condition.

So we don't have to push protein excessively high and once protein is sufficient.

I'd really.

From a coaching perspective, I generally rather allocate those additional calories towards carbohydrates to support training performance, glycogen availability and recovery.

So really what I try to get across is that more protein doesn't allow us to force feed muscle growth.

We really need sufficient.

It's a fish sufficient, a full dietary approach.

Now, body recomposition is where I start shifting the recommendation, because in my coaching model, a recomp phase will often begin around maintenance calories, and then I will transition them into an energy deficit.

So we are going to be in that state where we're going to see a knockdown in muscle protein synthesis.

And.

Potentially, if they're doing enough, which generally in a recap, this would not happen, but there could be some type of increase in muscle protein degradation.

And I think that's where the newer review that we discussed earlier by Raffalo, Trexler and Helms really becomes quite useful, because we saw in that meta regression that increasing protein intake up to 1.9 grams per kilogram per day was associated on average with progressively less lean mass loss.

But because the objective in a recomp phase isn't merely to maintain lean mass, but to create the most favorable environment, potentially gain muscle.

While losing fat, I'm going to want protein at least at a higher level than that.

So I'm usually going at least 1.9 grams per kilogram per day, and then I'm moving that up.

And if someone is really looking to gain as much tissue as possible in that energy deficit, I may go towards that 2.5 to 3.2 grams per kilogram per day.

Now, I would use the same type of framework in a dedicated fat loss phase.

And so, you know, I would go back to that if someone just wanted to maintain their muscle mass and they were at a relatively low risk of muscle loss.

I would use that 1.9 grams per kilogram per day.

But if someone was in a place where they were much leaner and they were much more at risk, or they were someone that told me,

Brandon, I don't want to lose any muscle, skeleton muscle whatsoever.

I'm getting on stage.

I'm doing a photo shoot.

I'm doing a wedding.

Whatever it may be, I'm going to air them towards a higher side of that.

So I'm usually going to use that 2.5 to 3.2 grams per kilogram per day.

Now, the thing is, I do want to get across, because sometimes I've discussed this study, and then automatically people think that I'm automatically recommending 3.2 grams per kilogram per day.

Which is, if I back calculate that, there's somewhere in the range of 1.45 to 1.5 grams per pound per day, which is quite high.

And that can cause a constraint in and of itself if we're dealing with a restricted energy budget.

Really, what I do is I look at everything as a risk spectrum.

As someone's body fat gets lower, the deficit gets deeper or larger, the diet goes longer, their training advancement increases, and the value of retaining every possible ounce of muscle increases,

I'm more willing to go above that 1.9 and push towards that 3.2.

But really, when it comes down to it, I'm more willing to go above that 1.9 and push towards that 3.2.

Protein should scale with the risk of muscle loss.

Now, where I do kind of run some of these higher levels especially is going to be in individuals that are physique athletes, so they're getting very lean.

They are weight-restricted athletes, so I used to work with some strength athletes or powerlifters, and we were doing a weight cut.

And that's where I would really move into that 2.5 to 3.2 grams per kilogram of body mass per day.

Now, Mikki, I'm going to turn things over to you.

I would like you to first cover endurance athletes and what recommendations you would make from a practical programming perspective for their protein intake.

Yeah, great stuff, Brandon.

So, as we discussed, I aim for at least 1.8 grams per kg body weight per day for my endurance athletes, regardless of whether they're male or female.

And then, if they've got a body composition goal in addition to sort of their training, then we're going to bump that up to at least 2 grams per kg body weight per day.

And really sort of focus that protein in and around.

I mean, you mentioned the sort of essential amino acids.

And there is some research looking at essential amino acids.

I'm sort of supplementation during endurance, and you and I have discussed it as well, just to help protect that sort of muscle protein breakdown.

I'm going to push that a little bit more in my lower carb athletes and people who may have a lower carb intake during extended training sessions as well, because there is some evidence to support its use as an energy sort of substrate in there.

Importantly is, of course, not to drop protein on rest days.

And if anything...

We want to make sure that's maintained, potentially sort of increased a little bit to help protect and to help promote recovery.

And then, if I move into the older adults, it's like the protein amounts don't necessarily differ in terms of sort of total protein.

And we're talking 1.6 to maybe a little bit higher than that, 2 grams per day.

But what's really important are a couple of factors.

Like you mentioned the point sort of 4 grams per kg.

And I think that this is really important with older athletes to really promote that sort of leucine threshold.

I'm looking at about 3 grams of leucine, if not a little bit higher for older people as well, which is when I might bring in an essential amino acid powder, potentially, for people who have low sort of protein appetite.

And it's really sort of doubling down on protein distribution during the day, actually.

So we are maximizing those leucine thresholds.

It's several.

You know, at least three times a day, because I think that is really important.

And I think it was probably off air that we discussed anabolic resistance and how training actually sort of takes away a lot of that anabolic resistance that we see.

And that's what we were discussing before we jumped on air.

So, I mean, I just would give a big shout out to resistance training for older adults at this point as well.

And then last but not least, can you do vegan athletes as well, Mikki?

Oh, yeah, of course.

So with vegan athletes.

I'm absolutely doubling down on the quality of the protein that they're eating.

I'm looking like, so the amounts don't necessarily differ, but I really want to ensure that they're getting those quality protein sources in.

And so for me, that is a decent plant-based protein powder.

And I don't even think about it necessarily as a supplement per se.

I often just sort of consider it as more like food-based supplements, if you like.

I mean, I know that you're the same, Brandon.

But also tofu, edamame beans, soy.

Like I'm really sort of doubling down on those sources for my athletes.

But also I talked about an essential amino acid powder, and I'm bringing that in to help maximize the leucine threshold in meals that might typically be lower protein.

Because even if we are doubling down on tofu, there's only so much tofu you can eat in any one meal in order to get the amino acids that we do require.

So.

So there is a little bit of leeway there that I use with athletes.

Perfect, Mikki.

I think that's a great place to wrap up this Protein Masterclass.

Mikki, thank you again for joining me for our third collaboration.

I always enjoy getting the opportunity to combine our perspectives and work through these topics together and also our off-air chats, which are epic.

Just so my audience knows, where can my audience find you?

Yeah, wonderful.

So you can find me over on Instagram at Mikki Williden.

And my website is Mikki Williden.

And then, of course, the Mikkipedia podcast.

Perfect.

And then for everyone else listening, whether you're catching this through the Chasing Clarity Health and Fitness podcast or Mikkipedia, thank you for tuning in again.

If you found this episode helpful, please share it with someone who would benefit from it.

And make sure to tag both myself and Mikki on Instagram and let us know that you listened so we can thank you.

And as always, guys, thank you for listening.

And until next time, keep chasing clarity.

Peace.

Peace.

Peace.

Peace.

Alrighty.

Hopefully you enjoyed that.

And look, as I said, you can find Brandon over at BrandonDacruz underscore on Instagram or over at Chasing Clarity on Spotify or Apple or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

All right, guys.

So we'll have another one of those next month for you.

Until then, though, catch me over on Instagram threads.

And X at Mikki Williden Facebook at Mikki Williden nutrition or head to my website, Mikki Williden dot com and sign up to my free Christmas fat loss strategies webinar, which is taking place Sunday, 31st of October, 11 a.m.

New Zealand time.

All right, guys.

Catch you next week.

See you later.

Bye.

Bye.