Hey everyone, it's Mikki here, you're listening to Mikkipedia, and this week on the podcast, I speak to Dr. Ceci Gia about the changing food environment, the rise of food delivery apps, and how digital platforms are shaping the way young people eat.

So, Dr. Ceci is a dietitian, actually, and she shares how she moved from her one-on-one dietetic training into public health after seeing just how difficult it can be to change long-standing eating habits at an individual level.

Ceci and I discussed the rapid growth of food delivery apps, especially since COVID, and the subtle ways that these platforms influence our choices through rankings, discounts, free delivery, and checkout upsells.

We explore Ceci's research, showing that unhealthy options often dominate these platforms, surprise, while nutrition information can disappear online, even where labelling is required in store.

And we also dive into dark kitchens, school and transport food environments, the importance of planning policy, and why adolescents see food courts as important social spaces.

We finish up by unpacking the commercial determinants of health, and why framing food choice as purely a matter of personal responsibility,

misses the influence of cost, time, marketing, and the environments of people who live in.

I really enjoyed this conversation with Ceci, as it brings up such an important element that is so often overlooked when we're thinking about an individual's behaviour and what they eat,

is that it is so largely influenced by the environment, and this conversation really highlights that.

So, Dr. Ceci Gia is a research fellow and accredited practicing dietitian.

Her research focuses on the role of diet and food environments as modifiable risk factors for cardiovascular disease,

with a particular emphasis on how the rapid digitalization of food environments, including the rise of online delivery platforms such as Uber Eats,

is shaping dietary behaviours and cardiometabolic risk in young people.

So, I have a link as to where you can find Ceci in the show notes.

And before we crack on into the interview, guys, just a quick favour from me.

It costs you nothing, but does so much for the show, is to hit the like and subscribe button on your favourite podcast listening platform,

because that'll increase the visibility of Mikkipedia, and it makes literally thousands of other podcasts out there,

so more people get to hear from the guests that I have on the show, like researcher Dr. Ceci Gia.

Ceci, thank you so much for taking time to speak to me this afternoon.

You know, I was looking at the questions that I had prepped,

for our conversation, and I just thought, this is such an interesting area that I think gets missed when we are thinking about the food environment.

And, you know, you've got a traditional, well, I said traditional, but you've come from that individual dietetics background initially,

but now, of course, you are researching across nutrition and public health and technology.

Can you just kick us off by telling...

or giving us a bit of your background, and what sort of drove you to that sort of the bigger pillars, I suppose, when it comes to food choice?

Yeah, great.

Yeah, first of all, thank you so much for having me on your podcast here today.

Yeah, I think it's a real privilege to be able to talk about my research.

So I guess my journey into nutrition and dietetics actually started quite early, when I was in year 10.

I did a work experience placement at the Bowdoin Institute,

which was a research institute focused on obesity, nutrition, cardiovascular disease.

And I shadowed a research dietitian there for a week.

And yeah, it opened my eyes to this world of research combined with nutrition.

And ever since, I sort of worked towards studying nutrition and dietetics as the degree for university.

So that's what I did.

I did the Bachelor of Science, Master of Nutrition and Dietetics.

And I finished those two degrees as a dietitian.

But I think throughout my Master's of Nutrition and Dietetics degree,

I realized just how hard it was to change individual behavior,

especially when you have a patient or a client who's been eating this certain way for many years of their life.

I just thought, why is it so challenging to change an individual's dietary behaviors?

So that inspired me, public health, the notion of public health inspired me,

like interventions that you could implement on a population level that could have, I guess, greater effects.

And this whole notion of preventive health was very appealing to me.

So, yeah, I don't know if I've rambled on a bit too much, but that's basically how I got into public health.

You haven't rambled at all.

And as you were talking about that, I was thinking about that.

There's a difference between individual choice versus and what people think they are choosing versus what they're being led to choose

via different mechanisms within food apps, within the food environment that we're not even aware of.

And I'm sure you came across this research when you were studying in Brian Wansink's research on food decision.

Now, I know that, you know, I think that he tampered with some of his results.

And I think ultimately a lot of his papers might have been retracted or something.

Like that. But the idea sort of stuck.

And I don't think it's I don't think it's incorrect.

And that a lot of us make decisions that we're not even sort of even making or really aware

that we're making in terms of our food choice, maybe habit, but other things could be at play.

Yeah, definitely. I mean, the food environment, which is, you know,

what we are exposed to, the food outlets in our proximity, the types of foods available,

affordable to us that influence our decisions.

They are a really big influencer of what we choose and therefore shape our diets.

But adding on top of that, you know, you have an individual's cultural background.

You have, you know, their personal likes and dislikes.

You have all these factors merging together.

But I think still the food environment is a major component,

and that's also shaped by, you know,

commercial influences and big companies that are,

you know, paying more money to have certain products placed in certain certain positions in the supermarket.

And this is just speaking at the physical sort of food environment level.

I guess my research is trying to figure out, well,

yeah, it's the same situation happening on digital platforms.

Yeah, companies, you know, paying extra money.

They probably are, you know, to be on the top,

sort of ranking positions on the food delivery app,

that sort of stuff I'm really interested in.

And yeah, to research more.

Yeah. And I think this is the thing, right?

Like often we consider food environments as being supermarkets, cafes,

takeaway shops that we physically see and we don't really consider,

you know, the digital platform.

How has the rise of things like Uber Eats, DoorDash, Instacart, which we don't have here,

New Zealand, but I know is, you know, overseas.

How is that sort of, I guess, changed exposure for certain groups?

Like, because are you interested more in the younger age groups here, Cece?

Yes, definitely. So I think the rise of food delivery apps really, I mean, it's not a new thing.

It's, you know, existed since probably 2017.

Some Asian countries were like, had a big food delivery market pre-Covid,

but I think Covid really accelerated the popularity of these apps.

You know, people were locked down in their homes.

They still wanted to eat from their favorite restaurants.

So I think it made sense that, yeah, we saw like a huge boom in these apps.

And the key concern is that it's marketed towards younger people.

You know, young people love eating out. They love dining out.

And so it's a concern, especially, you know, with the increasing amount of screen time.

People have, you know, we all live a very digital life.

We all have phones that we're glued to most of the time.

So that is a key population that we are concerned about.

Especially, as you know, at this life stage, that's where they form those habits,

those dietary behaviors, and it can be really hard to change that, you know,

once they grow into adulthood.

Which is why we want to focus on this group and try and make sure they are,

you know, establishing healthier behaviors.

But that's hard to do, yeah, given the rise in the digital food environment.

Yeah, absolutely. Because, you know, I often think about this.

It's so different from, I mean, it's so different from when I was young.

I mean, but truly, like the environment has completely shifted in the last 30 years,

in terms of just more,

more easy to access sort of food options, more autonomy,

maybe even to make those decisions.

Because, you know, we didn't have phones when I was growing up.

Like I think I sent my first email in my third year of university.

And so when we had, when we wanted takeouts or fish and chips,

for example, it was a decision our parents made when we were 13 or 14.

It's not the case anymore.

Yeah, definitely.

I think Uber Eats launched a feature specifically targeted at teenagers,

I think a couple years ago.

And the whole purpose of it was to try and appeal to parents like,

hey, it's school holidays.

Why don't you let your kid order Uber Eats?

Then you can take the, you know,

burden of cooking off of you and your kids can choose whatever delicious food that they want to order.

So yeah, I think those food delivery companies are really targeting,

the younger generation.

This is separate from food delivery companies.

But I think all types of food companies recognize that market as really potentially profitable

because once you, you know,

make your impression with the brand,

they're likely to remain loyal to that brand over time.

So yeah, that's a key concern.

Yeah, and interesting a bit of a tangent really to this conversation,

but I'm thinking about the supermarket and the breakfast cereal aisles,

snack bar aisles,

and they're appealing to children because they,

because they, you know, they are colorful packets.

They might have cartoon images or they look delicious.

But then also parents might read that something is fortified with,

you know, calcium or it's got a bit of iron added or get your,

get your folate and therefore it's,

they almost feel a bit better about making the decision that their child wants as well.

And then that's just every, then I guess,

quote unquote, everyone is happy,

although it's not necessarily delivering what they'd ideally eat.

Yeah, and that type of information while,

you know, sometimes misleading for parents,

what we found is, you know,

completely missing in the digital food environment.

So I guess it's even, yeah,

more of a concern where parents can't even have that additional information to make those types

of choices that they think are more informed and better,

for the children or teenage kids.

So yeah, like how much would parents,

how much would that change the behavior anyway,

do you think? Like if that nutrition information was available,

do people even understand it?

I know, I think about this because I remember back in,

maybe it was like the late, late 2000s,

I think in America or maybe it was just New York,

they bought in these standardized nutrition information in restaurants,

and I remember going into a bakery in New York and there was like wheat bread loaf,

and the entire loaf was like,

I don't know, a thousand calories,

and that was the information they'd report.

And I'm like, it's pretty bloody useless actually,

like what, like I look at it and go,

well, that doesn't tell me what I'm going to be eating if I order toast from that loaf,

but also no one really knows even what it means.

Yeah, I think there are definitely flaws with,

I guess, policy tools like kilojoules,

labelling, but what the evidence suggests is that it is effective on a population level.

So it can induce these slightly lower kilojoule purchases,

which on a population level would bring some level of benefit.

But as I can totally relate,

you know, I have a husband who is sort of like anti kilojoule labelling.

He looks at the kilojoule label,

and he wants to order the item that provides more energy.

It's, you know, more energy, more bang for his buck,

as he would say. So there are definitely flaws with these types of tools,

but it's at least something,

you know, if we don't have it,

then arguably the food environment is even worse,

like even more unhealthy,

and there's literally no information that the consumer can use to make any sort of decision.

So there are flaws,

but I think it's still helpful overall.

Yeah, and actually,

I think that you've really well described just the issue with public policy really,

right, and making changes at that public level.

And like I think about things, this is a tangent,

but I'm thinking about things like dietary guidelines

and the visual representation of what that might look like

and the recommended dietary intake values and things like that.

And a lot of people argue, like what's the point?

No one follows them anyway.

I mean, obviously with those nutrition recommendations,

they're for certain industries and to use as guidelines and things like that.

But if you don't make any change at that particular level,

which is very hard to affect change in any way,

then you're right, we could be in a far worse position.

Yeah, I think so.

I think having the dietary guidelines is important because it gives,

it gives like a certain like, yeah,

goal to aim towards.

Like everyone knows it's really hard to achieve the dietary guidelines,

even as a dietitian.

It's gold standard.

It's what we should be aiming for to prevent diet-related disease on a population level.

So yeah, having that sort of evidence-backed scientific standard is,

I think, still really, really important.

Yeah, yeah.

Even if it doesn't

make, yeah,

I think there needs to be more work done to make it make sense to a regular everyday person.

Yeah, how can we make this more achievable?

Yeah, no, a hundred percent, Cece.

You need to get your colleagues onto that.

So, because you're far too busy in the digital world to worry about something like that.

And, you know, with that, so,

interesting, something in your work I found really interesting actually,

it wasn't just that the platforms,

itself just presented food options to people to choose,

but they have a role in shaping the decision of what the children are going to choose.

Can you just talk a little bit about some of the factors that are involved in,

in sort of almost manipulating what someone might decide to eat?

Yeah, definitely.

I've been chatting to a few colleagues about this actually.

It's all about, you know, the algorithm and what the algorithm shows certain users,

there are tactics where food outlets specifically appear in an order on the app.

You know, there's a behavioral economics theory called nudging,

where basically things in more prominent positions tend to capture our attention more.

And so being in places of high visibility is a key,

determining factor in what people choose.

So that's one way food delivery apps are sort of shaping what people eat.

Another is through the vast amounts of discounts and vouchers that they offer to consumers,

which a lot of people take up on because,

you know, everyone wants to save a bit of money.

They love free delivery or, you know, just 10% off or 20% off.

They'll do whatever they can to save a bit on the food that they want to order.

What else is...

Like the upsells and stuff like that as well?

Yeah, upsells.

Are you going to get a small, let's get a large?

Yeah, yeah.

So when you're on the app and you're making an order,

there's always like a final reminder.

Do you want these items?

And yeah, oftentimes it would be a side of fries or a drink or yeah,

changing it to a, from a small to a large size.

Exactly.

In your review,

you found that unsurprisingly,

probably unhealthy options sort of outnumbered those healthy options available on those food delivery platforms.

So is it that the brands or the companies that sell the less,

you know, the options that are worse for us,

do they just have bigger budgets or is that sort of driven more by what the person themselves is buying?

Like is it a chicken and egg situation?

I'm not sure.

It is really interesting to think about because you know,

our research showed that actually a large proportion of food outlets partnered with a delivery app are independent restaurants and cafes.

So, you know,

your mom and pop type of type of shop,

your local sort of shop that has a specific cuisine based menu.

They're the ones that make up the majority,

but what we're finding is it's the fast food chains that,

that occupy a lot of the visible space.

As I was,

as I talked about earlier,

you know,

Macca's and GYG,

those types of brands appear more prominently on the app.

As for whether I guess is unhealthy options from both fast food chains and independent restaurants and cafes.

I think they are responding to a certain type of consumer,

you know, consumers want delicious food.

They want cheap food,

but I think there is also a growing number of consumers who are interested in healthier options,

potentially more sustainable options.

And I think the food delivery apps are also recognizing that they,

you know,

they are finding ways to make their menus or food outlets look more sustainable to,

I guess,

the younger younger people who are more environmentally conscious.

You know,

if I'm ordering CC and I know I'm not an adolescent,

but if I'm like picking up my phone and ordering something like,

is the app going to show me options that are quite similar to what I've ordered before?

Like, is it a quite a personalized experience?

And that is that driving a lot of what people are buying at this moment in time?

We don't have evidence to support that,

but based like a couple of my colleagues and I are looking into this.

Well,

we're still yet to publish anything on this.

But we are looking into how our ordering history affects the types of food items that we'll see.

I think that's a super interesting question.

I think the preliminary things that we're seeing in our studies that are not yet published,

so still,

you know,

unestablished yet,

but we're seeing that even clicking onto unhealthy items on the home page can,

can influence the subsequent items that is shown the next day or a couple hours later.

So that's it's really powerful driver.

But how we quantify that is the next step how we then hopefully publish this in a paper to get this sort of information out there.

I think it's really important.

And I guess it would probably be of no surprise to anyone who's ever been on a social media app.

Like it feels like you and I will be talking about fast food on this podcast.

Then I'll jump on Facebook to answer a question.

From someone and then I'll suddenly see DoorDash or I'll say,

you know,

Uber Eats or something like that.

But like it feels like it's a very power like the powers that be very powerful when it comes to have making themselves known if they think you're at all interested.

Yeah,

definitely.

I am not sure exactly how that works.

But yeah,

our phones are listening to us.

Our search history influences what we see.

Yeah,

it's also,

it's really,

I don't know.

It's a bit scary to think about how much data we're sharing out there and what's shown to us and therefore is influencing our behaviors.

Yeah,

and I guess like I think I alluded to earlier,

like it really does call into question that whole argument of personal responsibility,

you know,

at least like it should be up to parents to help their kids make better decisions.

And then ultimately the children,

you know,

you know,

they're 14,

15,

16.

They surely they should be,

you know,

making better decisions.

But the things that influence our decisions are clearly well beyond a lot of,

you know,

that we don't even really know about.

Yeah,

definitely.

Those what we call commercial determinants of health are very,

very strong drivers.

Marketing is very persuasive and powerful.

And I think it would be,

it would be unfair to put the onus on the individual,

right to say it's,

you know,

their fault for not making the healthier choice.

It's simply our environment that is way too unbalanced where the unhealthy choice is the easy choice when really that should not be the case.

Yeah,

for sure.

And you know,

I did my Masters in childhood obesity back in the late 90s and part of my literature review was looking at the environmental influences of obesity and looking at the number of,

um,

fish and chip outlets and dairies that were around schools actually,

because they were big influences on sort of what children were eating.

But of course,

the and even the commercial food environment has really changed for everyone over the last 30 years compared to what it was.

It does feel like I wonder how you would affect real change in this area given just how,

um,

ubiquitous the options seem to be now.

I mean,

what do you think?

Yeah,

definitely.

We've done a few studies looking at the school food environment.

So what types of outlets are available within like a 1.2 kilometer radius of a school?

We've done this over time and even,

you know,

17 years ago,

it still remained quite unhealthy.

Like proportion wise,

it's probably like 60%.

But over time,

that has slightly increased.

And I think the solution is,

well,

governments haven't done this,

but the solution is to try and get governments to advocate for healthy food environments,

healthy food retail,

and actually implement that.

I think what they have is like guidelines and it's all very like airy-fairy.

It's not really implemented well.

It's not no.

Yeah,

it's,

it's commercial space has been taken up by unhealthy food retailers,

or maybe food retailers who aren't intending to sell unhealthy foods,

but maybe because of consumer demand or,

you know,

ways to generate profit.

They are selling,

you know,

what would be deemed as,

yeah,

more unhealthy.

Yeah.

And I mean,

a large,

I mean,

everyone listening to this will be like,

well,

that's a money thing.

I mean,

obviously the government is giving a ton of revenue,

maybe,

from these big food companies or like,

what is the driver of that?

So when you're talking about it to your colleagues,

it feels like,

I wonder whether it feels like this unsolvable problem,

like whether the government will ever move on something like this,

like what would,

what would need to change?

I think governments will listen if there is community action or community voice.

So there have been a few,

I guess,

recent wins,

at least in Sydney.

There's a suburb called Redfern.

It has a high,

it's,

it's got a high young person population,

you know,

it's near university.

It also has a high Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander population.

And it was the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander community that rejected the proposal of a new 24,

7 McDonald's in the area.

So I think governments will listen when there is strong community voice against,

against a certain,

yeah,

I guess a fast food outlet from opening because they're,

because people are aware of,

you know,

the health impacts,

the social impacts of these types of outlets,

especially 24,

7 McDonald's.

The evidence suggests that not only is that bad for,

you know,

health,

but it's also potentially encouraging more crime in the area,

which people don't want.

So I think that is the key.

I think governments,

obviously,

obviously govern people and they will listen to people if we make enough noise.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I like the optimism and,

and I share it as well,

you know,

like,

like at some point there has to be a tipping point whereby things do change.

Otherwise I see a bit of a future of us like that movie that I have yet to see,

but WALL-E,

you know,

everyone talks about WALL-E the,

you know,

like absolutely no physical activity,

just food available everywhere and everyone and no one being able to actually do anything because we've completely lost that sort of physical

function.

Yeah.

Unfortunately,

I haven't seen WALL-E yet,

but I also would really love to see that movie.

But yeah,

that would be a very sad future.

If yeah,

if it's that like,

you know,

food available everywhere,

no one's exercising,

you know,

we know that food has a huge impact on our mental health as well.

It is,

it is key.

I think being healthy,

having a healthy society,

healthy community,

governments should be,

I can see more on the preventive side of things rather than putting a Band-Aid on on things like treatment.

Once the condition has occurred,

I think it's a bit too late.

So yeah,

yeah,

completely.

And I'm also prevention.

Yeah,

absolutely.

Cece,

you've also studied the physical food of environment around New South Wales transport hubs and you sort of look,

you classified the majority of outlets as sort of unhealthy or I suppose less healthy.

What then what they would otherwise sort of be.

So,

you know,

we've talked about the food environment from sort of,

you know,

30 years ago,

17 years ago.

What did your research sort of suggest around how I guess cities are being designed and these things are being thought about it that sort of planning level?

Yeah,

I guess that goes back to what I said earlier that there is opportunity for governments to act at an earlier stage.

So right now,

development,

haven't extensively happened yet.

There is still opportunity for governments to make a decision and perhaps incentivize healthy retailers from opening.

There's tools that they can use,

but I think once everything is developed,

I think it's much harder for the government to then come in and say,

we must change,

you know,

this fast food outlet into a healthy food outlet.

That's much harder to do.

So I think what we wanted,

to show through this research is well,

development is happening in these,

you know,

eight accelerated precincts.

Has the government given enough consideration to what people and the growing populations in these areas will be accessing in terms of their food?

I think that's what we really wanted to highlight because that is a key missing piece that hasn't been thoroughly considered.

Yeah,

that's nice.

And I think about that,

like I,

the community,

that I live in,

Hobsonville Point and Scott Point,

it's one of these accelerated precincts,

I think,

like that,

it's sort of being,

it was planned out to think about more accessibility to green space,

more walkable sort of paths,

didn't have to rely on transport to get anywhere,

to get everywhere.

Yet,

of course,

the food environment itself wasn't,

you know,

I don't think had that same level of sort of consideration.

Yeah,

definitely.

And in Sydney,

just speaking about my,

you know,

neighboring suburbs,

you look at the new metro stations and you see a lot of unhealthy food available.

And in my head,

I'm just thinking there's massive amounts of school students visiting these food outlets.

There's massive amounts of people going there before work,

after work.

They're just like really convenient and within reach.

And,

I just think it's really interesting how this is shaping the health of our communities over time.

I think one thing that I'm always conscious of though,

is you still want that vibrant sort of community.

And I think the question is like,

yeah,

how do we balance that in a right way?

Like we don't want to become a nanny state and,

you know,

prevent all these shops from opening.

But that,

I think that's something that we,

I guess,

dieticians,

public health experts,

planning experts,

all need to come together to try and come up with a feasible solution.

Yeah.

Yeah,

that nanny state term does get,

I don't mean thrown around a lot,

but a lot of people,

that's the pushback that is often given whenever someone has an idea about putting in guidelines in schools or to prevent a McDonald's opening somewhere.

You know,

we,

I see things like that.

I see things like that in the papers over here as well.

And it's often,

oh,

the government just wants to control our behavior and I should be able to make my own decisions.

But I do,

I just think people just don't have the knowledge of,

of that.

A lot of the decisions that they're making around food,

actually,

they're not really making,

it's being driven by these environmental forces.

And precisely.

Yeah,

I think it's,

it's hard for people to be aware of what's happening to them.

And it's like a subconscious,

unconscious level.

Um,

yeah,

everyone wants to think that they are fully in control of their choices and decisions,

but I guess the research suggests otherwise.

Yeah.

Hey,

um,

Cece,

you also did some research or you're doing research on dark kitchens.

So can we pivot?

Can you just chat to me about dark kitchens?

What is this that,

that,

um,

what is it that you're researching?

Cause I,

that was the first time I'd heard the term was when I was sort of just looking over,

your work.

So,

um,

what does it mean and how many people would have potentially been ordering from dark kitchens?

That wouldn't have even known it.

Yeah.

Um,

great.

So dark kitchens came about when I was doing all this work around food delivery outlets.

Uh,

what we did for some of my projects was we web scraped a bunch of food outlets from Uber eats.

So these are the food outlets partnered with the app.

Um,

but what we found was,

some of them were a lot of different names were coming from the same address.

So I don't know,

for instance,

one,

two,

three princess street,

um,

had,

you know,

hot dogs,

home hot dogs,

or,

uh,

but Pete's burgers or like all these different types of food outlets coming from the same address.

Um,

and so what we found was there is a term out there called dark kitchens,

which I think came from,

um,

some researchers in the UK.

Um,

and basically that delivery only kitchen.

So,

uh,

one kitchen could be operating.

It's like up to five to 10 different brands of foods.

Um,

and they've simply doing this through food delivery services.

So I guess we were interested because this poses,

I guess,

a state of food safety concern,

um,

because food safety,

food,

local food authorities aren't able to go to a kitchen and inspect it and make sure it's all food safe.

If you know,

the food outlet name is changing all the time.

Um,

so I think that has important implications.

We don't yet know whether people from the data we're getting,

we don't know if people know that they're ordering from dark kitchens.

Um,

so that's not something we've looked at in our study,

but I think some UK or Brazilian researchers,

researchers looked into this and I think people said it was fine.

As long as it,

as long as the dark kitchen had disclosed that it was a dark kitchen.

It was,

is it like the transparency aspect?

Like,

I don't even know,

you know,

if I came across Pete's kitchen and I don't know,

Sam's burgers,

and they were coming from the same place.

Well,

I don't know that I,

how would I know this?

And,

and I guess what,

I mean,

I think the safety issue is a re is a really interesting,

um,

one to consider.

And I mean,

just as a consumer,

I'd be like,

well,

what was the quality going to be like?

Yeah,

exactly.

I have yet to order from a dark kitchen.

So I don't know if the quality of the food is,

you know,

below a normal restaurant.

Um,

what we did find a couple of years ago that or Porter,

um,

you know,

the burger franchise,

um,

they had a dark kitchen brand called basted,

which was really interesting.

Um,

I,

I don't know why it's probably to generate more profits,

but,

um,

they actually commented,

I think,

uh,

a journalist reached out to them and they said,

oh,

we were phasing out all about dark kitchens.

Okay.

Was it just to get more of a market share from people who thought they wanted

something different or.

I think that is likely the case.

Uh,

if they offer,

you know,

yeah,

sub a different way that their food has been marketed,

but it still looks like the burgers were like still the same,

but different names.

Um,

it must be a simple way to generate more profit,

but maybe I don't know why they shut down.

Um,

maybe it wasn't doing as well as they helped.

It reminds me of like getting a reputable brand of something,

just taking their label off it and then selling it on Timu.

Sort of like not too dissimilar.

You need to get your husband to order from some of these dark kitchens.

Yeah.

Maybe we'll do a small scale study.

Yeah.

Hey,

um,

what is the deal with,

um,

what is the deal with,

so obviously we've talked about a little bit about the regulatory stuff

around the physical food environment,

how hard or otherwise is it for government to regulate the digital food

environment and,

and to sort of make real change there?

Yeah,

a key,

I guess it's still really missing.

Like the digital food environment is still under regulated.

Uh,

there is some recent interest from government in trying to do more,

more in this space.

Um,

I know that the food standards,

Australia and New Zealand,

uh,

recently opened up a call to provide more information for packaged products sold online.

So this more targeted,

like packaged products sold on like Woolies or Coles online,

um,

countdown in New Zealand.

Um,

it's,

it's,

I feel like it's like,

it's something,

but it's not a,

it's not a lot like the food delivery apps.

Um,

it's,

it's still not well,

um,

regulated.

We did a study looking at,

you know,

kill a jewel labeling again,

which was mandatory for fast food outlets in New South Wales at point of

purchase.

Um,

which is very vague because now there's these online ways of purchasing food.

Uh,

we found that there was still a lot of kill a jewel information missing,

even though the physical outlet would have been,

um,

it would have been mandated for them to display that information.

That same information was missing online.

So I think there is still a long way to go.

Um,

especially,

yeah,

there's these apps and technology change all the time.

So I think it is a matter of,

uh,

the regulation being able to catch up.

Um,

it's like what we regulate or what we include under a certain regulation might be different in a year's time.

Like,

depending on how the apps operate.

So I think it is a hard balance to strike because regulation regulators,

policymakers might be saying like,

we need more evidence or there's not enough evidence out there,

but it takes time to generate that evidence.

And then,

yeah,

by the time you generate that evidence,

the digital food environment looks a bit more different.

Um,

I know colleagues working on drone delivery,

um,

which are probably the next big thing.

Oh,

wow.

Drone of food.

Yes.

Isn't that interesting.

In fact,

when I was in the UK,

I saw,

um,

sort of similar,

but different like robots,

like little,

like,

uh,

like,

um,

I don't even know what you would call them.

Just delivering dessert to like from restaurants to people wherever they were.

I was like,

whoa,

I hadn't seen that before.

Yeah.

Yeah.

In China,

um,

yeah,

there's robots everywhere at the restaurants.

Um,

there's drone delivery happening.

Um,

I think in certain cities,

it's like quite prevalent.

Um,

and so that just gives you a sense of what the future might look like in terms of the digital food environment.

Yeah.

Interesting.

Cece,

you've done a few studies,

I think,

or at least one where you've involved adolescents in some of like in focus groups,

I think around the use of,

of digital platforms,

different environments.

Can you just share a little bit about maybe some of the key findings there,

and,

and why it's important to talk to sort of the group that you're interested,

whose behavior you're interested in?

Yeah.

So the consultation exercise that we did was for that school food environments paper.

So it wasn't relating to,

I guess,

the digital food environment specifically,

but what was interesting was that some of the young people mentioned,

well,

maybe the physical school food environment isn't as important because people are still getting,

food delivered into their schools,

which I found really surprising.

I was like,

wow,

like high school students are actually ordering food into their,

yeah,

to their schools.

I,

that's just wasn't,

yeah,

a thing for me when I went to high school.

So times are,

times are changing.

I think it's important to listen to young people who have this lived experience,

right?

This is,

this is their current reality.

It's important to consider,

what they think is important.

So they think that,

you know,

paying out at a food court after school is important to them because it's an opportunity for them to socialize.

But we,

you know,

we think that food courts are,

majority of outlets in the food court are,

you know,

KFCs and McDonald's and all these other fast food chains.

So you can't,

we didn't think of like creative ways to provide these,

I guess,

third places as,

as it's termed.

Um,

um,

um,

um,

to let high school students still hang out with their friends,

but still in a way that supports their nutrition and health.

Yeah.

And I,

and it makes sense that they would be involved in some of the idea generation around what that might look like and,

and,

and how that might look if that was ever to be hopefully,

you know,

if that's sort of part of the part of the solution,

I guess.

Yeah.

So that's something that I hope to work a bit more on in the future to,

to really,

to work with young people to on solutions,

um,

that involve their food environments.

I have colleagues who are looking into this as well.

Um,

whether that's working with them on like a text messaging app,

ways to,

yeah,

co-design text messages to encourage healthier behaviors.

Like that's one avenue that we're exploring as well as part of the wider team.

Nice one,

Cece.

And,

you know,

if,

um,

parents are listening to this and they're,

they're thinking about their own or their,

or their child sort of use of,

you know,

Uber eats and the like,

like what kind of things should they be thinking about?

Do you think in terms of,

I don't know if they can affect any change at all,

it sounds like I'm quite resigned to the fact that they might not be able to,

but I'm,

I'm curious,

like what,

no,

what advice would you give?

I suppose,

I guess there are healthier options on the app.

I think maybe it's about,

it's,

it's not about completely restricting someone's intake of,

of a fast food out item.

I think it's still that,

you know,

education of,

you know,

a diet that is balanced and,

um,

you know,

most of the days you are eating healthy,

you are eating through tie and fiber and whole grains and,

um,

lean cuts of protein and things like that.

Um,

but when we are,

you know,

dining out,

eating out,

make sure that you have,

have a meal that still has those similar elements.

Like maybe there's an option to go for brown rice over white rice or a way to include more vegetables in your meals.

I know,

my husband and I,

when we dine out with friends,

we're always ordering a side dish of vegetables,

which is very like unheard of,

but those are just some of the tips that I guess we use when trying to be a bit healthier when dining out or,

um,

yeah,

I guess those same tips could apply when ordering food online.

Yeah,

it's tough,

right?

Because it's very easy.

And I mean,

you know,

this here in public health,

like having the information is one thing.

Um,

but as you mentioned right at the start,

like making the healthy choice in a sea of unhealthy choices that are so much more appealing to our brains.

Um,

I guess that's a challenge that we face,

right?

Yes,

definitely.

And I guess one thing we haven't really touched on yet is,

um,

the fact that,

um,

there's this inequities in the way that I guess food outlets,

um,

appeal and,

uh,

affordable to us.

Um,

so I guess groups that are lower socioeconomic status,

um,

might be living in an area where they're deprived of healthy food outlets.

Maybe they're more surrounded by fast food outlets.

Um,

those sorts of inequities exist.

And,

and I think it is really challenging to try and encourage people to eat healthier when in the supermarkets,

they might be seeing higher prices of healthier produce versus,

um,

you know,

more ultra ultra processed foods that are cheaper and quicker to prepare.

Um,

I think that is something to address on like a broader food systems level.

Um,

how can we make healthy produce affordable and,

um,

yeah,

like more equitable.

Yeah,

completely.

Because of course,

oftentimes in those groups,

um,

it's not like everyone has all the time in the world either to be able to make everything from,

not even from scratch,

but from packets and all grow their own,

you know,

a lot of the arguments I see on social media is people just need to grow their own vegetables.

Like it just happens so that people have land to do that.

Like they have time to do that.

Like they've got the,

like they even know what to do.

Like,

and then when it comes to cooking,

so many people wouldn't know how to cook anymore.

And it's just,

gosh,

there are just so many issues with,

um,

healthy eating these days.

Yes,

definitely.

And,

um,

it's,

it's a huge issue.

And I think I have a colleagues looking into ultra processed foods and they recognize they've done interviews with parents,

you know,

of school,

school aged children.

It's just really challenging for them to pack a healthy lunch.

That's free of ultra processed foods.

Um,

they're just short on time,

short on money.

It's,

it's a broader food systems issue that I think is worthy of,

um,

lots of research and attention as well.

Completely Cece.

Well,

I mean,

given the complexities and the enormity of such issues,

I don't think you'll ever be out of a job at least.

So,

so there's that.

Um,

so Cece,

what,

um,

where can people find more out about your research or,

you know,

your research group and,

and what they're doing?

Because to your point,

a lot of the good stuff that's going on,

actually we don't really hear about because it doesn't tend to,

doesn't always make headlines.

And when it does,

it's amazing.

But so,

so where can,

where do you share your information?

Yep.

So our group,

our team,

um,

we're called the Youth Well Lab at the University of Sydney.

Uh,

we have a website,

we are active on LinkedIn.

So we try and post about our,

our latest papers and,

um,

presentations and things like that,

um,

on LinkedIn when it,

when the time comes,

uh,

and we do our best with translating our research.

I mean,

this is one excellent opportunity,

um,

to get to speak about our research.

Um,

some,

sometimes we get,

if we're lucky,

we get some media interviews,

which is great.

Um,

but yeah,

if anyone is interested,

I guess just please reach out on LinkedIn or check out our website,

Youth Well Lab.

Dot com.

Yeah.

Amazing Cece.

And I'll put both of those links in the show notes.

Um,

thank you so much for your time this afternoon.

Super interesting,

super challenging area,

but it's always so great to see how these things evolve over time as well.

So,

um,

yeah,

really happy to have had this chat.

Thank you so much,

Mikki.

Alrighty,

hopefully you enjoyed that.

It was pretty eye opening,

I thought,

and I just had never considered or thought about the whole concept of those apps really shaping how we think in our food decisions.

But of course,

it makes perfect sense given how everything in our digital space does that to a degree.

So I really appreciated Dr.

Cece taking her time to discuss that with me.

All right,

guys,

I would love to hear what you think.

I'm over on Instagram,

thedsandx at Mikki Williden,

Facebook at Mikki Williden Nutrition,

or head to my website,

mikkiwilliden.com,

scroll right down to the bottom and put your name in that little box to jump on my email list.

I'd love to have you.

All right,

guys,

have a great week.

See you later.

Bye.