00:03
Welcome, hi, I'm Mikki and this is Mikkipedia, where I sit down and chat to doctors, professors, athletes, practitioners, and experts in their fields related to health, nutrition, fitness, and wellbeing, and I'm delighted that you're here.

00:28
Hey everyone, Mikki here, you're listening to Mikkipedia, and this week on the podcast, I speak to men's health expert, Ali Gilbert on men's health. Ali and I talk about the normalization of the dad bod and implications this has on the optimal health and wellbeing of men. We discuss myths around testosterone supplementation, when it could be beneficial for men, and the consequences of low testosterone, and...

00:56
what is considered normal on lab tests, which is actually functionally low. And this is such an important topic that I speak about on a lot of sort of markers that we see. This is true of testosterone also. We talk about what the main issues are that are driving down men's testosterone levels, common signs that this might be the case, and practical things men can focus on to help optimize and change their energy. And finally, Ali...

01:24
talks about her virtual summit, the Silverback Summit, that is taking place in early May. It is free to register, which has a range of experts in the field that discuss all things men's health, and we will pop a link to the Silverback Summit in the show notes. So, Ellie Gilbert has 20 years of experience as a strength and conditioning coach specialising in men's health and hormone optimisation.

01:49
Ali graduated from Springfield College in 2003 with a degree in exercise science, and from there she has worked for Velocity Sports Performance. She then began training people in her hometown of Greenwick, Connecticut, which led her to specialize in golf fitness, becoming a two-time Golf Digest Top 50 Golf Fitness Professional. And this did primarily bring her male clientele and eventually landed her in the men's health arena.

02:17
She lectures nationally and internationally on testosterone and her approach to coaching men online. She's been featured in Muscle and Fitness, T Nation, and various podcasts, and digital and print media for her work in men's health, and has a number of certifications with national sporting bodies. Allie can be found on Instagram at the Allie Gilbert, but also over on her website.

02:46
Ali, Ali hyphen Gilbert, g i l b e r t dot com, where you can find out all about Ali, other media that she has contributed to and apply for coaching with her and her team. All right, team, before we crack on into this week's interview, just a reminder that the best way to support the podcast is to hit the subscribe button on your favorite podcast listening platform.

03:13
This increases the visibility of the podcast out there in amongst literally thousands of other podcasts so more people get the opportunity to learn from the guests that I have on the show such as Ali. Alright team, enjoy this interview.

03:33
Allie Gilbert, thank you so much for taking time with me this morning to have a chat about men's health. Because as I understand it, you are the queen of men's health, which is fabulous. I'd really love to know actually, how did you sort of niche down into that area? Like what, what, so give a little bit of your sort of background in how you arrived at where you're at. It's funny because everyone asks me that question.

04:02
When you think about it, it actually is kind of a cool story, but it makes sense. So being an exercise science major, we all want to train athletes. And when I left school, I was like, cool, training athletes in the strength conditioning world, you make no money. And I'm all for like, you know, putting in my time and everything, but you still got to pay bills. And the town that I grew up in had a lot of guys who played golf and

04:32
I was like, oh, I'm training a lot of golfers. I know nothing about golf. I'm gonna learn everything I could about golf. And so I started trading with some of the golf pros in the area. So they would give me a lesson, I would train them. And then I dove right into a fitness, golf fitness certification through the Titleist Performance Institute. And I was like, oh my God, you could actually like specialize in this. This is really cool.

04:59
And when you specialize, you can actually charge more money, which is also really cool. Cool. And like all the guys that I trained were very like type A and super serious and very much like an athletic mentality. So I was like, oh, this is perfect. It's like training athletes who could actually afford to train. This is great. And so training them brought me all men because women didn't really seek out golf fitness. So.

05:26
then all of a sudden I'm like, cool, these guys are asking me nutrition questions and hormone questions and I don't know anything about it. And so I learned everything I could about men's health. And this was like back in 2009, 2010. And here we are, 2023. Like, you know, I literally dove headfirst into learning everything about it. And I think a lot of, you know, anybody in any industry that is,

05:54
similar to this where you can niche down, is advised to find that niche. And a lot of people struggle with that. And I think it kind of naturally found me. And one of my business coaches had said, just post about the men's hormones and that's it, because run with that, that's your thing. And so that's what I started doing. And I attended medical conferences and I've spoken at them and I've developed a great network of physicians. And that's what I lecture on is.

06:20
boners and men's health and testosterone. And, you know, I talk about it in a way where it's like guys feel comfortable and safe. And that's where the humor side comes through. So I did not dub myself queen of men's health. I forget who did, but someone told me to say that and they're like, put that in your Instagram. I'm like, all right. There you go. It's awesome. It totally fits. And I mean, I think what you say there about that you sort of normalize a lot of these things which...

06:47
men might think about but don't actually talk about because of course if you, obviously it depends on how you curate your feed, but all we hear about is women's health and women are much more open and much more willing to share and seek advice, whereas in my experience men are just not that way. So have you sort of thought Ali about why that is? Like have you sort of ever thought, I wonder what the story is there? Or is it just a pretty obvious, men just don't talk?

07:17
Pretty much. So the guys are not social about it. Women will talk to each other, you know, oh my God, I'm going through this, and I think it's my hormones, I think it's this, I think it's that. Men don't sit around talking about that. Or if they do, they'll be like, yo, I'm on testosterone, man, you should try it. And then the direction of the conversation can go either a good way or a bad way.

07:44
but they just aren't open about this stuff because it's so vulnerable. And testosterone is just such a taboo topic, especially in Australia and New Zealand. So over in the US, guys are told that it's gonna cause cancer, that it's steroids, that it's cheating, all these things. So that thinking that they might be suffering from low testosterone and actually openly admitting that is a really big step for them. And it's so...

08:12
not what it's like for women's health. Like women, they go on hormones and they go through menopause and like nobody blinks an eye. But for a man to have to think, I have to rely on this exogenous hormone for the rest of my life, does not sit well with them. Cause men wanna have control and not be relying on something like that. Yeah. And I think, I mean, you mentioned that the conversation could go like either really bad or really good. And when people think about testosterone replacement,

08:42
Often they're thinking about those sort of super physiological levels, right? Like the type of testosterone that is going to make you look like Arnold Schwarzenegger did, you know, back in the seventies, which I mean, I'm being a little, I'm exaggerating a little bit, but it's, um, people just don't understand, don't know enough about it because it's not talked about. They don't, aren't aware of how helpful that could be. And I certainly want to sort of dive into that with you and, and you know, what are some of the signs of low testosterone?

09:10
and what it is that people can do about it. But first, Allie, like I sort of feel, and this is really an opinion piece, I'd like to hear what you think, that people like nowadays, we've sort of normalized a level of health, which isn't normal. And I think what I mean by that, and this might come across as a bit fattest, and I don't mean to, but I see a lot of guys.

09:37
getting out of university, headed into the corporate world. And it's, you know, they've come from this athletic background. Now they don't have time to sort of participate in the sport that they did, and it's not a priority. And slowly but surely their physique changes. And it's sort of quite well hidden. Like there are a lot of guys who might have been rugby players, and they're still sort of big guys. They might carry a bit of muscle, but now they've got a beer gut. But you...

10:05
it's just not as obvious on a guy that wears a suit as it might be for a woman, I don't know, in a similar situation. We've almost normalized that the 30-year-olds now have a physique of what we might have used to seen late 40s and 50s. Go. What do you reckon? Let's see. Where do we start? I know. Yes, first of all. In a lot of my lectures, I actually bring up...

10:33
I'm 41 years old, so in the 90s, Abercrombie and Fitch was the brand name of clothing. Did you guys have that? Oh yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, all right. So all our parents thought the music was too loud and the fact that we're paying for jeans with holes in them is obscene. But that was the place to go. I bring up, because there's a recent documentary on Abercrombie, on Netflix, the models in the 90s. If you look at them now.

11:01
you would say, oh my God, those guys are like on steroids and they're like way too jacked and blah, blah, blah, blah. Compared to models now, which are much more accepted, right? And I was like, this is really interesting because a lot of my guys, when they have a transformation, and I'm not talking like three weeks, four weeks, like I will not post photos less than three months apart. They look really good. Not everybody's on testosterone, but a lot of them are.

11:31
And people are like, oh, well, they must be on something or they can't achieve that without testosterone and all these snarky comments. And I think that if anyone has any like minor level of visible muscle, people automatically think they took steroids to get there. This shows a number of things. Number one, this person's very triggered about something they could not do. We all know that hurt people hurt people,

12:02
It also shows they know nothing about steroids. I will any day give somebody every single drug on the planet, sit on the couch, take all the steroids you want. You still will not look the way these guys look because they put the work in the gym. And I don't know where this whole like normalization or acceptance of all of this, I personally think it's got it out of control because now if somebody wants to lead a healthy lifestyle or

12:31
If a guy wants to explore testosterone replacement, the direction of the convo going the bad way, as I alluded to, people can be very negative about it because they think that it's cheating or not necessary. But it absolutely is necessary. It's a necessary hormone for a man to feel optimal as a man. So now if he actually needs that to feel better, he should not be demonized or shamed for that. And there's these drugs out there for diabetes called.

13:01
Ozempic, which I'm pretty sure everyone on earth has heard about. And I was saying to one of my doctor friends the other day, I said, let me ask you a question. A lot of people think testosterone replacement is cheating. It's a prescribed medication. How is Ozempic any different? It's a prescribed medication that literally annihilates your appetite so you lose weight.

13:31
How is that not cheating? It literally, and he was like, Ellie, you're right. And I was like, dude, but people get so bent out of shape, but they are, they're not running, Mickey. They are tripping over each other to get Ozempic at the drug store and these doctors, like it is out of control. Wow. But that's not cheating. Yeah, yeah, interesting, interesting.

13:58
And it's a perception thing. I mean, obviously it all comes down to perception, but people, I think, I mean, you have explained, I heard you explain it really well about how actually, you know, it is about a deficiency in what you need in order to feel optimal. It's not a layering on because we know that when you layer on something, when you don't need it, then that's when some of, you know, you might have side effects with.

14:25
I mean, that's really vague actually, and probably not true. It's not true in every cynical circumstance, but if I'm thinking about testosterone, can we talk actually, Ellie, about testosterone levels? Like, how have these sort of quote unquote normal ranges changed over the years? And what I will just say is that we work in different levels. Yeah, yeah. But in New Zealand, I did the calculation before I came on.

14:55
230 to 1,000 nanomoles per liter is what is considered normal for a testosterone level. Yeah, nanograms. What do you guys use, nanomoles or picomoles? I think we use nanomoles. So we're 8 to 35. I'm glad you looked that up because I was like, shit, I should have looked that up because I could deal with Australia. Anyway. Yeah. And that range is already crazy.

15:25
Yes. Yes. You know, if you tell somebody you bench press eight and then you're bench pressing 48, like, you know, very different. And they've consistently lowered that in labs here in America because men show up more and more with lower testosterone levels. So this is a problem mostly for anything that is insurance based. So in the US, insurance companies will not

15:50
hover testosterone if you do not fall within this arbitrary range or I'm sorry, if you do not fall low enough on that range for what they consider. So you can be a 25 year old man and have a testosterone range that falls at the low end and be told, well, you're fine because you're normal. And then you get sent home. And this guy has all the symptoms of, you know, low energy, low motivation.

16:19
low confidence, low libido, fat storage patterns where he didn't really have it before, like doesn't have that drive, just lethargic and all that stuff, and pretty much borderline depressed. So the doctor's like, well, here's an antidepressant because you're depressed, because you're too young and you have normal testosterone levels. And I see that all the time. Like I just got off a console with a kid who's 26 and he's been having sexual dysfunction for two years.

16:49
He's just completely like, I'm out of guesses or answers as to what to do. Cause obviously if you go to a doctor, like a general doctor, they're going to be like, yeah, you're fine. You know? So yeah, that's all like going through insurance in the U S is horrendous. So it has to be a paid for out of pocket thing by a doctor who does this every day, all day, not, you know, your primary care. Yeah. And it's interesting that even though you're, you're talking about it from an

17:19
an insurance base, which we don't have here in New Zealand because we've got it's covered under our public health service. The same thing applies is that a lot of the reference ranges in labs are this sort of average range of who goes in to get a blood test. If we think about what the general population is, obesity rates and overweight, people who are overweight and obese are maybe 70% of the population.

17:49
90, I think it's what the latest one was like 92% of people are metabolically unhealthy. These are not, this is not a healthy sort of ideal scenario with which we're basing these these sort of normalized numbers on. It's so like it blows my mind, you know, and we are a very unhealthy country, but

18:16
then we're taking away everything that people need to become healthy. Yeah. And it just, it makes no sense. And now like, you know, the restriction of testosterone is getting tighter and tighter. And there's big legal issues going on with that now, trying to make it even more difficult for guys to obtain. And it's like, why is this going on? It's very political over here. So.

18:43
But guys are suffering, men suffer daily, they need this medication. And it's like one of the safest things that you could take. Literally, like you could OD on like Advil or Tylenol or something and too much Tylenol or Advil and really feel bad and end up in the ER. But if you like, say you inject your entire viral testosterone, like you might be bloated, like not a lot's gonna happen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So really. I know.

19:13
We mentioned the wide reference range for testosterone. What do you and the physicians you work with, because I understand you work with Michael Twyman, or he's someone that you... I've chatted to him on the podcast actually, he's brilliant. What levels are actually normal and healthy? Part of it's contextual, but I will say...

19:40
the upper level of the range and beyond is where you're gonna find like the sweet spot for most guys. So a lot of the times like, you know, for us, if it's over 500 of a total testosterone and then the free testosterone is around for us 25, 30, then that's usually where guys will feel pretty good. But sometimes guys need to be in like the 1500 range.

20:04
to be able to feel good. And so that will be dependent upon the dosage, the frequency of application, whether it's a cream or injection, but it's usually a lot higher than what this arbitrary range in either country will say. And it's really when a guy achieves symptom resolution. So on paper, he may have testosterone that is in like the mid to upper level, but he still may have symptoms. So he may need more. Some guys are...

20:34
great on less. So it's subjective in that sense to understand how they feel. Do they feel better? Are they still symptomatic in some areas? And then we rule out, obviously, is it lifestyle? Is it like sleep, stuff like that? Cool, if we've accounted for all of that and you're still experiencing symptoms, we may need to get you higher. Yeah, yeah, nice. And when I say we, it's other doctors I work with. I don't prescribe testosterone.

21:00
Please don't DM me for testosterone. No, that's great. And I think that's such a good point as well, because it's not just about chasing a number on your lab tests, it's aligning it with the symptoms, because that ultimately is the thing which you're trying to solve, not to get you to this sort of X sort of point on your lab tests.

21:29
and excess body fat and testosterone? Like is there a known relationship there? Oh yeah, so body fat is like the most inflammatory tissue on our body. And what happens with that is when you're inflamed, your body does not think, oh, you are really healthy, so we're gonna set you up for procreation. Not likely gonna happen. And so guys who are actually obese don't...

21:56
farewell on testosterone replacement because we're adding a hormone that the body does not want. And so they may experience more side effects. And when I say side effects, it's like they're going to experience some mood issues, a lot more water retention, you know, maybe some headaches and stuff like that, just because their body's like, yo, what are you doing? So the more inflamed you are, the more dis-eased you're going to be. So the

22:24
the less that your body will be like, cool, this is rocket fuel, I'm gonna let you do what you need to do. That being said, sometimes it's like a chicken or the egg situation where men have zero motivation. They have literally no will to do anything because their testosterone is so low. And if they are very overweight, they may need testosterone just to get them started. And so that's a situation that it can be utilized with guys who are very overweight.

22:53
I just know that it's not looked at as like the most optimal, but sometimes it's the best way to start. But I try to get guys in the healthiest position possible before they go on testosterone because I know they'll be super resilient. They'll feel really great. We've handled all the other stuff that you're gonna have to handle anyway. It's not like testosterone's the magic panacea that makes all the problems go away, though it is more for men than women.

23:20
So I think that looking at it from that aspect, that like no matter what, if you drop body fat, you're gonna end up better is a good outlook, but it will inherently lower testosterone because the body is just too sick to be in an optimal state. Yeah, for sure. And is there a relationship between like estrogen and testosterone? Because I've often heard people talk about that a lot of men have their...

23:47
I don't know, this is quite like, as I'm saying it, I'm thinking, this is just something weird I've heard, but that a lot of men have low testosterone because it's converted to estrogen. And it's particularly so in this sort of, because we've got a lot of estrogen, what are they, those little compounds in food and in plastic and stuff. Like, what's the story there, Allie? So there's, there is a, not a thing, but.

24:16
EDCs, which are endocrine disrupting chemicals. Yes, there you go. Those are like fake estrogens found in plastics, found in beauty products, found in our environment, in our food. Like we can't escape it. It's like, it's annoying how overbearing it can be. Like bottles that say they're BPA free, don't mean they're safe because it's just BPA free. It's not like BPS free. It's not some other version of a plastic.

24:44
So the problem with these things is that they bind to the receptors in our body to make our body think that we're like, you know, hormonally efficient, but then it really doesn't work that way. And it can make a guy think that the guy's body think that like he's pregnant or you know, something like that. And then they basically take over disrupt the natural production of either a male or female. And then the person becomes pretty sick. And it suppresses our

25:12
body's ability to actually run how it should. And so we find these in, you know, the poor food quality over here. I mean, we love New Zealand grass-fed whey and meat and all that stuff, but when you're surrounded by plastics that are in the heat, then the fake estrogens seep into whatever's in that container. So like water bottles are a great example. Like if you leave a hot water bottle in a car, don't drink it, you know?

25:41
Plastic Tupperware, like I tell guys, I'm like, listen, I know it's overwhelming, switch out your plastic Tupperware for glass or stainless steel. And then men need like structure and directions. So then I give them like three other things. And I'm like, glass and stainless steel, products that you put on your face or body, men do like the shampoo, the conditioner, like the car wax all in one thing.

26:10
Find one that's non-toxic, something that you're putting on yourself every day and soap and all that. And then making sure that you're drinking water that has been filtered if you can, not out of the plastic water. And then you pretty much have checked a lot of good boxes, but it could be like you can go down to the point of like removing EMFs from your bedroom or.

26:36
not going anywhere that has any plastic around it, but it's just impossible to avoid. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, we're watching Better Call Saul right now. I don't know if you've seen that show. It's the prequel to Breaking Bad. Anyway, the brother in it, he's allergic to electricity. As you were talking there about how the lengths that you can go to avoid something, you're right. It's finding that balance. I think as well is that when people

27:06
I wonder if they're like, oh, come on, that's a little bit OTT. But I think this is just a problem though, of how we've normalized as we were talking about the changes to our health over the last couple of decades. Because if everything was just OTT, then we wouldn't bother having this conversation, I think. No, and like I totally see that. I mean, trust me, I don't have a shower head filter, like I don't have a full house water filter yet.

27:35
and there's times that I'll have like artificial things. You know, we all go through that. It can be over the top. It used to be like so hippie, like tree huggy, you know, like my friends who walked around with glass water bottles and stuff. I'm like, you're such a dork or whatever. But like, it does add up to an extent. And I'll be honest with you, like I was at a medical conference this weekend and there were talks on estrogen detox and EDC detox.

28:05
And the consensus is that we're all gonna have to go through some sort of detox like a couple times a year just to get the stuff out of our body because it affects our liver, it affects like the quality of the nutrients that are entering our body, how our body utilizes it. Like it is mind blowing the research and the data on it, not to mention how it affects if you're pregnant or you have a male fetus. Like this is where it gets really OTT.

28:35
So if a female is pregnant with a man or with a boy, if she's highly exposed to phthalates, there's something called phthalate syndrome that can affect the sperm production of the man as he's older, which is wild to think about. But Dr. Shanna Swan has done all this research. She spent time in person with the doctors I was with this weekend talking about this. And if anyone is like, yeah, okay, I don't believe you.

29:03
Go read her book, it's called Countdown, Dr. Shana Swan. You'll be like, oh my God, like it's weird, but she talks about it because she was skeptical. So she did her own study and confirmed it. And that's the thing, right? And I imagine that there will be people who are more susceptible to these problems, I imagine. Like some, you know.

29:27
Either genetic variants or that epigenetic sort of chain, like what your parents were exposed to then impacts on your own health risk. But it makes sense. If you've got some sort of, if you've got health issues that can't be easily resolved, then it's not something you should just ignore. Actually that's when you do need to do the deeper dive. And I saw you were at that health conference and Dr. Carrie Jones was speaking in. I love her. She's amazing. Oh my God. Yeah.

29:56
And like I've known her for like since like 2012, I think. Yeah. I was introduced to her like online, like finally met her in person. I was like, dude, I feel like I've known you forever. But like, yeah, like she did an hour long talk on the pathways of estrogen detox. But it's like the brink of all of it. You need the whole day to really go through that. Yeah, 100 percent. And and I guess the thing is, as well as that, that's like that's getting down into the the sort of.

30:26
really details where if we step back, I imagine there are a lot of quite, not easy, but relatively simple things that we can address in our lifestyle that helps overall hormonal health for a man. Am I right? Am I right? Oh, yeah. And it's so boring. Isn't it right? Isn't it? So, Ellie, can we then... Oh, I've got a few questions which...

30:53
I'll leave them till last. First of all, erectile dysfunction, right? If there's something wrong with the guys, if he's unable to get it up in the morning, that's a clear sign of low testosterone stress. What are we thinking about in terms of common men's health issues and what is related to them?

31:22
I always say like most guys who are dealing with low T symptoms only equate if their dick works then they must not be low T. So they just ignore everything else going on and think it's something else. And I'm like, okay, cool. If you're younger, meaning under 50, I would say, and you've got some sexual dysfunction, then it could be a sign of low T, but it's more likely going to be more stress related like you touched on.

31:52
ignore that because they don't think of that connection. And the analogy that I like to use, it applies for people who work out. So like if you're doing a very heavy squat and say you're maxing out and you're literally just grinding on your way up, your eyes are about to explode out of your face. You might poop your pants. You're holding your breath. You're like so stressed out coming out. And then like all of a sudden your love interest walks in front of you and is like, yo, let's get it on.

32:20
And I tell men, I'm like, can you spring a boner at that second right there? And they're like, no, I'm like, that is the same thing that your body is doing to you when you're under stress and you can't get an erection. And then the light bulb goes off. And I'm like, that's the same effect stress has throughout your entire body. So if you're under eating, overeating, over training, under sleeping.

32:47
emotional stress, physical stress, subconscious psychological childhood trauma, you may have issues getting a boner. Does not directly relate to testosterone all the time, though testosterone can be a part of it. Yeah. The other part of that is blood flow. So if you don't have blood flowing there, that could contribute to it. And what contributes to better blood flow, Dr. Twyman is a...

33:16
example of somebody who's an expert on this. Your endothelial health leads to your ability to obtain a good erection. So if you have poor vascular health or if you smoke and you're just completely restricting all the veins and the blood vessels and you've just got clogged arteries and all of this like obviously blood's not going to the place that we want it.

33:42
So he says ED equals ED. So endothelial dysfunction equals erectile dysfunction, which it can. So if you're out of shape, you have a very poor aerobic platform or conditioning, or you don't exercise at all, or you smoke, or you drink a ton of alcohol, you probably are also going to experience some sexual side effects from that. But guys think, hmm, testosterone, that's it. And I've heard Dr. Twyman

34:10
chat about the nitric oxide pathways, which is obviously related, but also getting out into the sun and how important that is. And so many of us, like sometimes I think we, we think we see the sun and we think we sort of outdoorsy like a lot of Kiwis think, oh yeah, I'm outdoorsy. But if you, they actually put on the calendar, how often they were outside, like over the last month, it might be like two or three times, you know? So I wonder how much that sort of us not getting that exposure to sun also sort of impacts on these

34:39
ED issues that you're talking about. Oh, huge, because like the vitamin D, like vitamin D, it directly relates to testosterone and lack of sunlight is like lack of happy factor and that plays into it too. Like today I'm at 6,500 steps because I've had a lot of work today and here it's 6 p.m. So going outside like first thing in the morning just to get like some sun in.

35:08
in your eyes helps stimulate a proper circadian rhythm. But you think about like COVID and everything beyond that, like how often did nobody go outside because they didn't have a commute? So I was forcing clients, I'm like, go outside when you get up before you start your work day to get sun in your eyes so that you can stimulate cortisol production and like go to bed at night. So that has a huge relation because then

35:34
If you have a deranged circadian rhythm and you're lying in bed and you're scrolling and people piss you off, you're not going to produce melatonin. So your hormones are going to be all over the place. So it does contribute. And then when you're lack of sleep, then you become more insulin resistant and less healthy overall, less ability to obtain an erection. So it's all related. It's just most guys associate testosterone only with their penis health.

36:04
Okay. And so I've, so we've got blood flow. We've got the sort of psychology or the brain. biochemistry, Ali, like that's sort of the third B that I've heard you talk about in relation to sort of mental health, ED, etc. Is there anything we need to touch on there? Oh, the biochemistry would be the testosterone part. So the aisle of like, I think I stole this from Jade.

36:29
And literally in the Vegas event Jade and I were at recently, I was laughing because Jade was in the audience. It was the first time I think he saw me speak. And I was like, by the way, anything that you see up here that was Jade's, I stole it from Jade. So I stole this from Jade. And he knows that he gave me permission and all that. But he talked about the three B's and that would be blood flow, biochemistry, and then wait. Brain.

36:55
Brain, yes, thank you. So the brain would be like the stress part, the blood flow, obviously we covered, but then the biochemistry would be, is testosterone needed? And so likely it's probably part of it, but I try to get guys to understand what else can contribute to it to not solely rely on just testosterone because there's a lot of guys who go on testosterone placement and they're like, I still can't get my dick to work.

37:22
It's been three months, it's been six months, because they did not confront the issue that was going on before they went on testosterone. Yeah, yeah. No, that makes so much sense. It's that sort of quick fix mentality, but actually, if you don't fix the machine properly, then nothing's gonna fire on all cylinders. Yeah. Exactly. Ali, you mentioned under eating actually, and this is one of the questions I was interested to hear your thoughts on, because...

37:52
We, you know, I work, I would say probably 70% with women, 30% with guys, mainly athletes actually, and for the guys that I work with. And under eating is often something that I see in females. And we don't often equate men to having the same problem. But I mean, you work solely with, well, not maybe not solely, but with men predominantly. Is it an issue that you see? Is it? Yes. It's so funny because like we all get pegged with.

38:20
being crazy with the scale and not eating enough. And I'm just like, okay, hold up. Women are pegged with this 1200 calorie magic number. For the men, it's like 1,850. I don't know where the fuck this came from, but I'm like, why do you guys all fall under the same number? Yeah. It's crazy. And, because they're, now the population of guys I deal with are mostly like 25% body fat and lower.

38:50
overly obese. So it's usually they had gotten themselves very lean and then they wanted to stay that way. So they thought doing more of the same things typical as us women would get them there. And so they're training five days a week. They're doing CrossFit style workouts. They're eating nothing. And then they're like, well, I need to do more cardio. So then they'll go for a run. And then all of a sudden they're just like, I look flat. I look soft. I look small. I need more muscle.

39:21
or they have like, you know, a little body fat to lose, but not a ton, but they think, well, I just have to get really lean first. So then they drop some of the body fat and then they're like, well, I'm too small. Cause they thought that they had more muscle under there, but it was really just body fat. This is every guy. So then they're like, well, I'm too small. So I'm going to bulk. And when they bulk, they go all in.

39:47
It's like a pregnant woman who thinks that she can eat like eight billion calories, but we know that that's not necessary. He does what's called a dirty bulk and eats all this fast food and all this unnecessary calories. It really doesn't take that much more. And then he ends up fat. And then, oh, summer's coming. I have to crash diet again. They do that. They get the body fat off. They're back to the same place they were.

40:17
add enough calories to support their training and stay there for a long time. So they do build muscle is very similar to what women have to go through. So it's funny because like once I get them through the annoying part where I feel fluffy, I don't like how I look, I can't see my abs anymore, which is no different than what I did to my coach. So I get it. Once I get them through that, talk them off the ledge, then it's just cycling.

40:44
strength and muscle building programs inevitably for the rest of their life, eating enough calories. Maybe you raise them, maybe you lower them, but it's just getting through that initial part. But yeah, all guys are like around 1850 and I'm like, why? And it's like 91 grams of protein. Yeah, so low. And it's interesting because the way that you described that, like what I've been seeing lately actually is a lot of backlash to normal people. Normal is not the right word. People who aren't...

41:13
training for a physique competition, sort of instigating these sort of bulks and cuts and stuff. And I've seen backlash that, hey, you shouldn't be doing that because you're not training for a physique sort of competition. But to my mind, it's like, these are the techniques that you can use to build your best physique. So why wouldn't the general population also utilize those strategies? Because the people who do it right, as you've just described,

41:39
do it in a way that enhances their health and doesn't decimate it to my, yeah. Yeah, because like most people would associate, all right, if I'm gonna build muscle and I have to eat more, I'm gonna look sloppy because that's what they did in the past. So any guy that I've taken through like a quote unquote bulk, they've realized that they put it on very symmetrically. So their abs might blur out a little bit, but it's not this like explode into

42:10
body fat that they think is gonna happen. And I understand that, cause I've totally been there myself, but they realize, oh cool, I could still look good in clothes and you know, maybe it's winter or whatever. And nobody has to necessarily have like a physique stage goal to want to look like this. I think the only way to really put on true muscle tissue is eating more and training for it. We can't diet forever.

42:35
And the older we get, the harder it is. And the more muscle that you have going into your elder years, the better off you'll be from a health standpoint. And everyone becomes so focused on like, what's my body fat? You know, what's my body fat now? And I'm like, I don't care. What is your muscle now? Like, why do we never talk about that? And Dr. Gabrielle Lyon talks about this all the time, how we're very under-muscled.

43:00
It's the same cycle of when guys come to me and they're obsessed with body fat and then they end up realizing they don't have the muscle tone they want because they didn't spend the time building enough muscle, which requires eating more than they're probably comfortable with at that time. Yeah. And I, you know, Ali, I, because I'm an endurance athlete and so I see a lot of endurance athletes and guys and a lot of them are, I'd say, I'm going to say guilty of, but you know what I mean? Like their sort of mentality is...

43:28
It doesn't really matter about my muscle mass because I'm lean. In my head I'm like, well, you lean now buddy, but what are you going to be like in 10 years time? But also of course, that protective factor of building muscle now to help offset some of those losses in the future. I agree with you. That is the sort of conversation that might need to happen.

43:52
Guys aren't always wanting to get into the gym to lift weights just the way that a lot of women aren't. We often sort of pig women with, oh, women don't want to be in the gym. Hey, a lot of guys I know don't want to be in the gym either. Yeah, especially, oh man, Endurance. I competed in cycling and no one lifted weights. And I was like, this is weird. Like, why does nobody lift weights? But I get it. And guys are also afraid to do any aerobic work.

44:19
on the flip side because they think it'll deplete all their muscles. And I'm like, no, it won't. If you're doing ultra endurance events, you might be more prone to lower testosterone and lower muscle mass. But again, there's a certain structure of individual that likes to do endurance type exercise. Smaller, leaner, longer limbs, people tend to gravitate naturally towards that, whereas most people look like they're sport.

44:49
So if you are a big powerlifter, you're not necessarily going to look like a marathon runner because you did a little bit of aerobic work just so you don't die. Yeah. You know, and it's like, sometimes I have to talk to them like this. And then other times it's just the educational route because the media and like social media now, and just like, you know, people saying, well, if you train like a sprinter, you're gonna look like a sprinter.

45:13
I have people training all the time like sprinters, they don't look like these sprinters. Guys need aerobic fitness to be healthy. Then endurance athletes need weight training also to help with their health too. I think going to an extreme of either side is what gets people into trouble. That goes for nutrition too, because there's a lot of extremes in nutrition as we know. Yeah, absolutely.

45:43
Almost the brain's default is to go to the opposite ends of the spectrum and not think that actually it's the middle ground. But as you said earlier, it's just boring actually. The things that people need to do to optimize health, male or female, actually are just pretty boring when you write it out on paper. There's nothing click-baity about it, I suppose. No, it really is so, it literally is so boring. I think people think...

46:11
Because my clients get really great results. So I either get yelled at by the trolls that I give them testosterone, which is illegal for me to give them testosterone. Somebody came at me like a few weeks ago saying that that's my quick fix. And I'm like, interesting, because there's nothing quick about it. And these guys have been in the gym for a really long time. And going on testosterone, again, does not turn you into that avatar. That's something you have to want.

46:38
Like guys literally are there come to me and they say, turn me into an action figure. Great. Training, eating, repeat, sleep. Like it's all the same shit. We're all doing the same type of thing. Just maybe the approach I use is backwards from what they've been doing their entire life. And then that's why it works. Cause it's what we have been told not to do. Yeah. So that's kind of why I guess the proprietary

47:06
appearance of what I do may seem different, but it's really not. It's just applying boring stuff over and over. And Ellie, you work with some women, don't you? I've seen a couple of people. Yeah. Yeah. And do you like, is there anything particularly, I suppose, unique to your male clients that you might not do with women or vice versa? It's just the same stuff actually, but just it's individualized.

47:34
Yeah, it's pretty individualized. I would say women feel they need to do more like reverse dieting, which I think is more psychological. So with guys, I can be like, listen, you're going to put weight on just deal with it. Women are a little bit more delicate with that. And I don't say that to to like throw shade. It's more like that's how I was I freaked out the first time I think I gained a

48:03
You know, and my coach was like, it's just water, calm down. Okay, cool. So it's some women with that. The women I have or that I tend to attract tend to be more like my guys, like similar to me, either I train or I train their husband. And if your husband or wife is a coach also, it does not work within the family. So I just train both of them. So.

48:29
I have one girl, Ali, I trained her and her husband, and she did a bikini show in November. And I was blown away at how awesome it was for me. I think she ruined me working with any other competitor ever because she did everything I said. She rarely complained. We had the whole, I don't know if I'm ready, I feel squishy moments, but it wasn't a daily occurrence. A lot of...

48:58
bikini chicks can end up like, you know, cause we're all nuts. But with her, she was like applying everything we did. And she went into her show eating almost, I think it was like 200 grams of carbs, which is unheard of for bikini girls. And I was like, don't tell them how much you're eating or what, cause they're going to throw a conniption. Cause like they're all doing two hours of cardio and like, you know, eating rice cakes and like Allie's like, you know, give me my pretzel chips and blah, blah, blah. And she looked great.

49:28
she actually was almost too muscular. So it's really funny how like the approach that we took, but that's like competition. And I would say still, even then, there was nothing outwardly unique except for the last maybe two weeks where we were very careful of what we took in and then how much water we drank up until the day of. But honestly, I would say like with the guys, they tend to be able to handle more of the heavy stuff.

49:56
but they don't recover as well as the women. Women tend to recover a lot better. We have higher growth hormone levels, but that's more nitty gritty stuff. Like that's not your everyday person type of stuff. So I would say no. Okay, no, that's, and you know, I interviewed someone called Lauren Colenso Semple and she's just released a paper that talks about training and the menstrual cycle and that actually right now, there's no evidence to support any sort of training based

50:26
any menstrual cycle based changes to training. And actually it just comes down to the individual and who you're working with, which I think, which just makes sense, right? Because everyone is an individual. And so I was, yeah, yeah, I find it really interesting. Yeah, I forgot to talk to Jade about that. Because I used to be all in on that. And I used to like lecture on that when I used to talk about women stuff. And

50:52
I think, like you said, it's very subjective because some women, they're just like, I can't get out of bed. And then some women, they can go home and knock it out of the park. I would say you're probably not going to get a five-star workout on PMS week from the majority of women. But again, this is also women who are naturally cycling in a regular sense. No birth control, no irregular periods. So...

51:21
Now that's like a very small percentage of the population. Yeah, yeah, completely. And if you are bloated and you do have gut issues or you have a sore back, it makes sense that you're not going to have a stellar workout on that week rather than that it's, I don't know, related to something else. Allie, so can people work with you? Do you take clients? I imagine you do virtual clients. But what type?

51:50
Who is your client? So I do remote, I do online coaching. I have two coaches that are amazing, Ryan and Jim. They have worked with many women as well. So if we have women that are looking for coaching and you're, you don't like me, I have two guys that are really cool. But we do both training and nutrition. So I don't do nutrition only. I feel that our clients at least get the best results when they're all in. We were not cheap.

52:19
but we will deliver. So we do have a product that has the proof to work and we like people to join us for a minimum amount of like three months, but there's no like, you must do this. But I like to have people look at it as a 12, not 12 year, but 12 month journey. Cause it does take that long sometimes to get to the point that you want after going through a building phase and then your first initial or second.

52:49
cut. So our type of client is somebody who's basically probably tried everything else, can't stick to a program for a long time because it's not a sustainable way of life. Come to us, we will probably do the exact opposite and you'll think we're nuts. And then we'll get you to do it right the first time so that you never have to diet, crash diet in the way that you did before.

53:17
I mean, you share a lot of great information on your Instagram feed anyway. And I think that just really shows that your primary interest is just sharing information to help people optimize a lot of these things and normalize the discussion around things like testosterone, like men's health issues.

53:47
There's an in-person, but also a couple of virtual events. Can you just chat to us about them? Because I think one's coming up quite soon, if I'm not mistaken. Yep, yep, I have one in the first weekend in May, and it's free to attend. I've got 25 of my most trusted guys in men's health and fitness. So it's doctors, it's trainers like me. I don't know if I'm doing a talk. I might have to, but you know, people that I have my go-tos and my network.

54:16
So I call it the Silverback Summit because my logo is a gorilla. Short story behind that, I did not feel that the eggplant emoji was a fair representation of men. And I was like, I don't know if a purple vegetable's sexy. So I was like, a gorilla? Yeah, guys are like Silverback gorillas. So that's how he was born. And so it's an in-person event also at the end or in the beginning of November.

54:44
But the virtual event is to show people what it's about, what my people are about, what the community is about. So it's free to attend, but we do have the recordings for sale. And I do throw in the recordings from this past years, in-person summit, as well as some other stuff for like 99 bucks, which I know is like 9,000 over there. But, you know, hopefully the exchange rate will be more fair.

55:12
one of these days, and we're gonna do another one in August, but I haven't announced that yet. So I do think if any of the listeners are more interested in hearing anything additional about Men's Health, that would probably be the best event for what I offer from a product standpoint for now. Yeah, no, that is awesome. And I think I can't think of any other event which might bring the caliber of people that I know that you work closely with.

55:40
just from looking at the people that you recommend and who you're hanging out with and other conferences and stuff like that. So we'll put links in the show notes to that. And Ali, how can people sort of connect with you and find you on the internet? Come to Instagram at the Ali Gilbert with the blue check mark that I paid for so that everyone can find me. I wondered whether that was worth doing or not. I couldn't tell.

56:08
Honestly, like everyone's like, oh my god, Blue Check. And I'm like, I am not that type of person to be like, yeah, I'm such a celebrity. I got it personally because I got banned last year and I was like, I am not going through that again. That's right. I remember knowing that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So when that came out, I'm like, oh, hell yeah. Oh, that's awesome. Ellie, thank you so much for your time this morning. I really appreciate having this chat and.

56:35
Look forward to hearing more about all of this in the Silverback Summit. They'll be awesome. Thank you, Miki.

56:56
So hopefully you guys really loved that information and men out there listening to this, if it rang any sort of alarm bells in your head or got you thinking about your health, then this is only a good thing because obviously the first sign or the first step if you like of optimizing your health is to be aware that something's a problem in the first place.

57:26
from her website, ellie-gilbert.com. And don't forget to check out the Silverback Summit, and I've popped links to all of those in the show notes. Next week on the podcast, I have my friend Mark Cucazella back on the show to discuss Zone 2 training and why it's beneficial for not just athletes, but all of us, I suppose as humans, we are all athletes anyway. Until then though, you can catch me over on Facebook at Micky Willard in nutrition.

57:55
over on Instagram and Twitter at Miki Willardin or head to my website MikiWillardin.com where in addition to signing up to one of my meal plans you could book a one on one call with me. Alright team, enjoy your week, see you next week. Bye bye.