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00:03
Welcome, hi, I'm Mikki and this is Mikkipedia, where I sit down and chat to doctors, professors, athletes, practitioners, and experts in their fields related to health, nutrition, fitness, and wellbeing, and I'm delighted that you're here.

00:24
Hey everyone, it's Mikki here. You're listening to Mikkipedia, and this week on the podcast, I speak to Dr. Scott Lear, professor at Simon Fraser University on mental health, lifestyle strategies, and speaking out in order to help foster awareness and acceptance amongst those around you. Dr. Lear has been a professor for over 20 years, looking at lifestyle, obesity, heart disease, risk, because he...

00:52
is also at risk of heart disease, although we don't really go into that in our conversation. He's got a lot of information on his blog about it. Today though we talk more about Scott's own journey with depression and mental health, of which he's been very open about since being diagnosed a few years earlier. And this occurred after feeling down for no good reason as he puts it.

01:21
So we discuss the stigma that is attached to mental health diagnosis, which can prevent people from getting help earlier. And of course, talking about it. We talk about the strategies that he employed, both professional and personal, to help recover from it, but also how important it was for him to receive actual treatment, even though he was doing a lot of what is recommended that we do to help our mental health, like exercise and diet, et cetera. We also talk about

01:51
those strategies for him and how that certainly helped him along the way. And finally we talk about how his own experience has now sort of led him to be interested from a research perspective into the field of sort of mental health and lifestyle. So it's a really interesting and thought-provoking conversation I think in part because it comes from that personal experience and so...

02:17
Scott is able to put his own lens on it from a person sort of going through it, but also look at it from that sort of researcher perspective because he's such a wealth of information over things related to sort of health and lifestyle. So Dr. Scott Lear is a professor in the Faculty of the Health Sciences at Simon Fraser University and holds the Pfizer Heart and Stroke Foundation Chair in Cardiovascular Prevention Research at St. Paul's Hospital.

02:46
He is also a member of the division of cardiology at Providence Healthcare. And over the past 20 years he's been conducting research in the prevention and management of heart disease, focusing on supporting healthy lifestyles and improving access to timely healthcare. In addition to publishing over 160 research papers, his work has been featured in various media outlets including the Vancouver Sun, The Conversation, the Heart and Stroke Foundation, City TV and Global News.

03:15
Scott also has an active blog and regularly podcasts on issues pertaining to health, including heart health, mental health and so forth. And we've included links to both his professional profile at Simon Fraser University and his blog also. Before we crack on to this really thought provoking conversation, just a reminder that the best way to support the podcast is to hit the subscribe button on your favorite podcast listening platform. That increases the visibility of the podcast out there.

03:45
in amongst the literally thousands of other podcasts so more people get the opportunity to learn from the guests that I have on the show. So enjoy this conversation I have with Dr. Scott Lear. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so Scott, thank you so much for taking time with me in your afternoon to chat about subjects that we're both really obviously quite passionate about.

04:11
mental health, physical activity, sedentary behavior. These are things which I see you tweet about and I've read your work and listened to your podcast. So I'm really pleased to have this opportunity. I'm really always interested in people sort of, origin story is not the right word, but how you sort of develop this interest in this field. Okay, well, origin story sounds cool because it sounds like I'm a superhero. That's true actually.

04:40
Yeah, well, I started getting interested in physical activity in the middle of high school. And as I started getting into the end of high school, I thought that I'd like to get into medical research. And I didn't have anything specific. But then in university, I started getting more and more interested in the heart, partly because I was interested in the heart.

05:09
It was just a personal interest. I studied kinesiology in university. And at that time, I was focused on getting into medical school. And I tried once and didn't get in. So then I applied for graduate school, which is what most people do to try and increase their odds of getting into med school.

05:35
And I actually became quite happy with what I was doing. I was working with clinicians in cardiac rehabilitation. So that was really exciting for me regarding physical activity, exercise, and lifestyle behaviors, how it can be used as a treatment for heart disease. At the same time, I was thinking to myself, well, what can we do to prevent this as well? And that's where the prevention and interest in getting people

06:05
to be active. From a health point of view, it's you want to get people, whether it's healthy nutrition, proper sleep, taking their medications or physical activity, you want, like ideally, everybody to be doing this. And I bring that up because it's in contrast to when I talk to people in the fitness industry, they say, well, you know, the people we see have no problem exercising.

06:35
And that's because they're volunteering. They're the ones coming to the fitness studio. They're the ones who are paying for your services. Whereas in health, it's usually the people that are actually the hardest to reach that might benefit the most from changing their health behaviors. Yeah, it's typically the case, isn't it? Like my research background is public health.

07:00
in nutrition and physical activity as well, although I'm a nutritionist sort of, by trade was my background with physical education as well. But it's, we often have people in our field have quite a skewed perception potentially without that broader look over at public health. We have a skewed perception of what people are interested in. Like, for example, I think, oh, I could think, oh, everyone's interested in eating a whole foods diet and.

07:29
trying to get seven hours sleep and knowing that devices, you know, like these things that we think should be common knowledge, actually for the vast majority of people, it's just not how they, this is not stuff that they're either been exposed to or have the opportunity to take up in their everyday life, I think. For sure. And if you don't have access to those healthy foods or if you don't feel safe,

07:57
going for a walk in your neighborhood, these are gonna be barriers that are beyond your control. So Scott, before we chat about your research in this field, can we have a chat about just your own personal journey? Like I mentioned that, obviously that, there's a real strong link between physical activity and health and mental health. And I think people are much more aware.

08:25
of that now than probably what they would have been in the past, although maybe actually they're not. And I just think that they are because these are the people that I talk to. But as I understand, and you've written about your own sort of personal experience in this area, are you happy to just have a bit of a chat about that? Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. So physical activity is, I would say I was like,

08:50
bloomer in terms of exercise. It wasn't until probably I was 15 or 16 that I started getting interested in tennis and then started running and doing triathlons at that time. I wasn't a child who was put into soccer, football, hockey, or swimming at the age of five and did it for seven or ten years.

09:20
done it at that age, you kind of always remember it. So I would say I was a late bloomer. And it's always been something for me that I would say I can count on or and as a and also be an anchor. So if whether I'm stressed or whatever else is going on in my life, I would still have that exercise. Some of my

09:47
best workouts would be when I'm so much like adrenaline going from maybe lack of sleep from stress and then just going and working out and I'll be like, wow, had a good workout there and feeling better. And it was in let's see it was in 2021. When

10:13
I didn't self-diagnose myself as having depression. My family doctor did that. But looking back, and even then, I could tell I wasn't feeling great. And I would just tell myself two things, which I think I overuse these mantras. One, it's OK to not be OK, but I was using that every single day.

10:42
you know, that's wasn't a wasn't beneficial. And then I was naive or ignorant at the time thinking, well, it's just affecting me. Like, yes, I'm not feeling great. But I'm not affecting anybody else. But that's untrue. You know, if you're people in your household are affected by that, whether they can sense the tension or whether it's displayed in

11:09
think behaviors or things you say. And so looking back, and I liken it to even like heart disease and most diseases where by the time it's diagnosed, the disease process has already been ongoing for years or decades. Like when somebody has a heart attack, that's not the start of the disease. They probably started having that disease process 15, 20 years ago, per se. And it's just the

11:39
heart attack for them is unfortunately the first symptoms that they've recognized. And the same thing with people who have mental illness and trying to recognize that and then trying to understand if you can, if it's like quote, all in your head.

12:04
And at the same time, I would think to myself, look, I've got a great family, got a house, got a great job. You know, I should just suck it up. And I'm sure I don't.

12:22
you know, maybe I'm not really unhappy given that. Yes. Yeah. And your, did it, and I think this is a challenge that I imagine many people in your situation would have, is there's no sort of overt reason for feeling the way that you feel. And I understand that. So it's just like, you know, like suck it up or.

12:47
or you're doing your hard workouts, you're feeling great in that moment or whatever, and surely you can ride it out, I suppose, is something that I hear a bit from others, similar to you, actually. Yeah, and I would say, as probably with a lot of people, the pandemic probably just took it up a notch. My favorite or my go-to mode for exercising and training is swimming.

13:17
For a long time, the swimming pools were closed. When it got to early summer, I would put on my wetsuit and go swim at the beach for that summer. And so that was good. And then when the pool started open, they were restricted into how many people could go. Same with the fitness centers you had to book. And that actually became a stressful process. Yes.

13:46
I usually did drop in. I would show half an hour early so I'd get a spot. Because usually within five minutes of being able to book online, that session was filled. Oh my goodness. And you would have to, like it was open during the workday, so you'd have to make sure there is no work for you to do around that period. Because if you got a phone call, you

14:13
you either decide, oh, I'm not going to take that work phone call, book my swimming, which kind of thinks drive my priorities straight. Or take the work phone call and then go to book and you've missed the session. And so something that was a pleasure started to become stressful. So the I would say while I was still doing it religiously,

14:44
And it wasn't as great of a release or enjoyment as it was before. Yeah. And was it at that time that you decided to seek just another opinion on how you were feeling? Like how did that sort of come to the point where you're like, actually, I've really got to speak to someone about this? Yeah, that was, yeah, I don't know anybody who

15:13
had a mental illness or had mental illness that had that kind of awareness, there's usually like some sort of either acute event or like with among whether the household or somebody close to a person saying look this is just too much right something's got to change and

15:43
And that was the case with me. And then it's like, oh, OK. Then I started to seek help. Yeah, yeah. And how long, Scott, did it take to actually begin to feel better? So I imagine our public health care systems are quite similar.

16:09
both in their benefits and also in their problems and challenges. So after seeing the family physician, I started looking for something more intensive. So I looked at what the public healthcare system offered in terms of whether it's community care or inpatient care. I was hearing waits to see a psychiatrist could be up to a couple of years.

16:37
The inpatient facilities that are available seem to be only reserved for the worst of the worst because they have limited beds. And as one person referred to them as just treat them in streatum. So you go in. For most people,

16:59
they might stay five to 10 days once they're believed to not be harmed to themselves or anybody else in the release, but there's no community care. So I'm privileged in my position, work position, I have my employment, the salary that I have, that I looked into a private inpatient treatment facility. And unfortunately, both

17:26
my family physician and a friend who's clinical psychologist independently said, you know, if you can afford it, I recommend that to all my patients because you're not going to get help in the public healthcare system for something like this. Amazing. So that was the route that you took. What did that entail? So I was there for seven weeks. Most people are there six to eight weeks. And this place

17:55
nice, but it was still because it was, as one person described, it was a four star prison. Part of that was because this was also during the pandemic. We weren't allowed visitors, which they're allowed now. There were no offsite field trips, which was common before the pandemic and stuff, but it was still very valuable. This place was actually

18:23
a former hotel, so the building and facilities were quite nice. They were on a few acres of land with forest surroundings, so there were trails. And so that I would usually go out for a walk on the trail every lunchtime. And there was also a recreational therapist and a gym.

18:52
playing a game which is quite popular in the US and Canada called Pickleball. Oh, yeah, it is. Yeah. And I still continue to play that. But I was in the gym exercising. There is treatment. There are lectures and stuff. And it was very helpful for me.

19:22
It was expensive, but most lot of people spend more money on their cars and I can't imagine their cars giving them as much life benefit as going through the program I went through. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Scott, did you have, did you feel apprehensive about informing your work or, or telling people close to you that you were doing this? I'm always, yeah, because there is a bit of, or

19:50
it appeared, you know, there is still some stigma attached to, you know, mental illness, I guess. Oh, most definitely. So my work was very supportive. And so I took a four month medical leave. And and I was told quite a number of people before what was

20:19
going to close friends and close families. But I do know one of those sessions that we had in this inpatient facility was on what happens after. And some people were saying that they only told two people before they came in. So they're worried about how do they explain this eight week disappearance from the face of the earth when they come back.

20:46
others were unemployed and there because of the they either took leave or quit their job and wondering how do I explain I've taken a year off because if I tell them I've had a mental illness you know they know that's some people aren't going to get hired where if they said oh they

21:10
were treated for cancer and it's in remission, you know, that's probably not going to play a big role into deciding whether to hire somebody or not. With me, I found, and this is not for everybody, but I found, I guess, power in controlling my story instead of...

21:34
waiting for people to kind of fill in the blanks. And so I became very vocal about it. And I was aware of the stigma, but I was just like, you know what, if I go out there and just tell people what's happening or not disclosing too many personal things, but at least forming my story, then I get out ahead of that stigma. And there I'm transparent.

22:04
and going forward. But as I said, I might not have done that if I didn't have an employer that was supportive and understanding. Yeah, for sure. And I'm and you know, someone in your position where you are a leader, if you like, in terms of, you know, if I think about your because you're a professor, right? So you, you teach and you're you've got these sort of younger people who are coming sort of coming through learning from you like.

22:33
I imagine that, and also of course younger colleagues, I'm not suggesting you're old, but just as for someone like you to be transparent about that, that's the stuff that you need to help break down that stigma in my eyes. Yeah, and I've been, like a lot of times when I write about it or share it, I'm doing it for me. I enjoy writing, and so this is something that's helpful for me.

23:03
helps with others, but I've got lots of feedback when I've written commentaries and newspaper people reaching out to me. I dare to read the comment section sometimes and they're all actually quite supportive. And I've realized that when one person opens up, it gives permission to others to open up as well. And I've got feedback from

23:31
actually the people that you said, like, you know, it's not my purpose. But my Dean had mentioned a few months ago that some of our junior colleagues were saying that they felt very supported by reading and me sharing what I was going through. And while academics can be a job that a lot of people say is a dream job, there's

24:00
a lot of not so dreaming or maybe nightmare stuff that happened. Since I'm in the Faculty of Health Sciences at Simon Fraser University, I teach on health. So I have even before I went through and was diagnosed with depression, I was diagnosed with some heart condition and I would bring that into my class. And the students

24:30
There's one thing having that knowledge and research credibility, but then just as soon as you've experienced it, then your credibility goes up. And so students enjoyed, I had a videotape of my exercise stress test that I did and I show it to them in the class because I'm teaching how to re-diagnose heart disease. So...

24:59
I showed them me running on the treadmill to exhaustion. Yeah. And Scott, did you, when you were in the facility, did, because obviously you're a knowledgeable guy in health and, and fitness and nutrition, you know, in the whole sort of space, were you surprised by any of the things that you learned in the facility that, that were going to be helpful for you? Yeah, there was definitely like.

25:28
One big surprise. So I'm in, I would say I'm in the health behaviors, research expertise, because getting people to be active, I wouldn't say I'm an exercise physiologist, like I understand exercise physiology, but I'm not in a lab measuring people while they're doing strength training and fitness testing. I'm trying to get people to be active, trying to see how that behavior relates to health.

25:57
And so I knew about various behavioral therapies, such as cognitive behavioral therapy. But what I didn't know is something called DBT, dialectical behavioral therapy. And I didn't, and I'm not saying that I didn't know it because this is some type of French thing. This is not. It's, it's part of a clinical psychologist.

26:26
tools of behavioral therapy and that worked very well. It's based on cognitive behavioral therapy is the end goal because that works on changing your thoughts. Dialectical behavioral therapy recognizes that changing your thoughts is a long process. So it starts to look at changing your behavior because you can change, still have your thoughts but change your behavior.

26:56
And so that worked very well for me. And some of it, so for some examples, simple examples of this is that you're in a heated argument. And when you're in a heated argument, you're seeing red, you're not thinking like, oh, I'll just use these, like behavioral therapies.

27:25
This just says, okay, these are simple things that you can do. Like one, remove yourself from the situation. Uh, another is that works for people putting like an ice pack on the back of your neck. And all of these, these types of things are meant to not make the situation worse. They're not meant to change, um, your thoughts. They're not meant to.

27:55
get you to a place where you can whatever win the argument or, or start talking. It's, it's that you just don't want to make things worse. You're, you're in terms of your, your emotional activation, you're like an eight, nine or 10 out of 10. So a lot of these more calming strategies of, oh, just sit down and do some mindfulness. It's not going to happen. It's

28:24
When you're like that, it's about not making the situation worse. And then there can be time either before or after to look at things for, for example, a lot of times when we get into those situations, you can look backwards and see, oh yeah, okay, you know, this action or, you know, I was mad when I came home or because

28:53
you know, something happened at work and then I was driving home, somebody cut me off. You know, maybe before, you know, I engaged with the household, I go have 10 minutes of mindfulness. So that's and so some of these things, it's like a community.

29:18
cumulative, like add on to each other. And it's not necessarily the situation that you're in that's super intense, that is the cause of it, but these other things. And then there's also an aspect which is called increasing your window of tolerance. And realizing that stress is always going to happen. And how are you going to manage that? And so things that you've talked about already like

29:47
good quality sleep. If you've had three, five or six hours of sleep, that person cutting you off, whether they're in the right or wrong, is probably maybe going to spark something a bit more than if you've had your full, you're well rested, just like regular physical activity. And so those are...

30:14
And if you do some people benefit from spending time alone or doing self care, reading a book or, or doing some meditation or yoga. And for those people who are doing those things, they can probably picture if they stopped doing them, how their day might be a bit, they might be a bit more on edge. Yeah.

30:39
Yeah, for sure. And it's a little bit like, um, I'm thinking about exercise in that last example as well. Like I know I feel different if I, whether I'm out for a run in the morning or I have a rest day, for example, it actually changes my whole, how my body and my mind feel. Like I just feel slightly more on edge and, um, and see, I think like I've got this pent up energy that I need to expend. Um, Scott, have you read Dr. Peter Atiyah's book Outlive?

31:09
No, no, I haven't. You know what I'm talking about though? Yes, yes. Yeah. And so he talks in there a little bit. I don't know if it's the same thing, the dialectical behavioral therapy, is that what you called it? Yeah. Because he is very transparent about his own sort of challenges with a work addiction and how he viewed himself. And part of his therapy was whenever he felt, whenever he had...

31:37
Because his major anger issue was actually to it at himself and his own behavior and he would treat himself quite poorly. So one of his techniques that his therapist got him to do was to speak to himself and he had to do a voice memo to her. Every time he had these thoughts of, oh, you're a loser or whatever, he had to voice memo himself.

32:02
speaking kindly, speaking to himself like he was speaking to his son or his best friend or you know someone he really cared about. So over time even though he was having these thoughts the idea of he was saying these other things out loud helped change his perspective on that situation which is not, which is similar but sort of different to how you're describing it but that whole being led by doing by an action rather than trying to necessarily change that thought pattern.

32:31
Yeah, and what you just described is something too that was part of what we discussed. And for me, and I'm sure for a lot of people, getting caught in traffic was something that would raise my emotional temperature. And so there's an aspect within this therapy of radical acceptance.

32:59
you're not going to be able to change the traffic. And it's trying to focus on how to change how you react. And it's just like saying some of those thoughts in your head or taking a posture. Part of it is even doing a half smile.

33:21
when we smile, it actually affects us physiologically in a positive way. And so some of the things that you mentioned, that Pita Attia mentioned is exactly that. And where are most awful critics to ourselves? We treat ourselves so poorly that in no way would we ever treat somebody around us the same way.

33:50
with people in the nutrition space and the fat loss space. And what I recognize from very early on, that most people need is actually sort of coaching in that aspect, like in a way to think about, when they quote unquote sort of fall off the bandwagon, so to speak, or they deviate from the planned meal and they eat pizza or whatever. And then the comments that they make to themselves,

34:17
about themselves afterwards in the Facebook group and stuff, it's just, it's clearly evident of how they, the thought process that is going on, like, oh, I can't do anything, I'm a loser, I'm a fat pig. Like, these are things which people write about themselves and it's almost, I think some people must almost be unconscious to just how this then changes what they do next. You know, it's almost like default sort of thought patterns that if you were to say to some people,

34:46
that's actually super unhelpful for you. Like they might not even register just the effect that it is having because it's so ingrained and it's so deep. Yeah. And a common one that I would think, and it's quite common when I've talked with others is this thought that I don't deserve to be happy. Yeah. And which, you know, is untrue. Yeah.

35:15
100%, 100%. And I think if it's, we had these chats as well is that if that's the way, if that's the way that you're thinking, then this is then changing how you respond. Which is exactly what you say. And it changes how you then behave. You know, you sort of like, you set yourself up to sort of behave in a certain way, the way that you're sort of trying to get away from, I think.

35:45
Changing that physical state is interesting. And I've heard people talk about that before, like the ice pack on the back of the neck. This is often people talk about it in that moment of, again, nutrition related, but stress eating, like something has happened and your first response is to wanna pull out the ice cream container or grab that big packet of crisps. And instead you change your physical state and that actually can help.

36:13
almost put the stop button on that behaviour. Yeah, definitely. And it's based, it has physiological basis, like it's either on the back of the neck or your forehead. Like I've tried to, like holding an ice pack isn't the same as doing it close to your head. And it actually is calming. Others can

36:41
If you don't have an ice pack, try and throw cold water on your face. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Jump in a cold lake. Slightly. I mean, that's slightly less convenient, but would also probably do it. Are you a fan of sauna or cold water therapy as part of your own sort of like everyday well-being? Is that of interest? I wouldn't say it is. After I swim, I'll go sit in the hot tub.

37:11
Nice. And relax and do a bit of stretching. And I do it because I find it relaxing. And I also, for me, a lot of times before, I would finish my swim and then rush out of there and go to work. So just having that, I think the benefit for me is giving myself permission to slow down.

37:41
Yeah. And have like after the exercise, have five, 10 minutes and before getting on with the rest of the day. Yeah. Yeah. I think you're a parent, Scott? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I feel parents even more so than probably non-parents. And I'm a stepparent, so I'm a parent removed if you like, but like so much of what you do is not

38:10
necessarily for yourself, you know, like you're, you're at work as an employee, you're helping your students, then you're at home and you're a dad and you're a husband and you're doing all these things and it's, and people forget to take some extra time for themselves to then be able to go into those other situations in their best possible way that they can, right? Yeah, most definitely. And when I was in the treatment facility, there's

38:38
maybe around 40 people on average. It was a rolling intake and discharge. Most of the people there were people that you described, whether it was at their job or at their households, they were ones who were giving so much of themselves to others that they made no space for themselves. And then it just became so burdensome for them

39:08
You know, they're not getting their needs met. And it doesn't mean them getting their needs met means it overrides somebody else's. But they haven't had space to get their needs met. And it can create that depressive, low self-worth type of mentality.

39:36
Scott, have you had to change anything in everyday life to help with your mental health? Like, cause I mean, you already sort of exercised and we did just talk about that additional time you spend after exercise, but anything else that you, yeah, that you do now as part of your everyday, just wellbeing that you might not have done. In terms of activities, I was,

40:06
more so earlier on than now, but I would probably spend about 10 minutes, maybe three to four times a week doing some mindfulness meditation. And I'll turn to that if I'm feeling stressed. And sometimes it's like, oh, I'm stressed, I got to meditate. It's not necessarily because I find it works.

40:34
best when I actually wind down a bit before I start doing that. But 10, 15 minutes is the time it takes. I make sure that I have, even if I'm not doing it, have mental breaks throughout the day. Recognizing, because one of the things in this, you touched on it in the book that you mentioned, Peter Tia wrote.

41:02
One of the things I thought when I wasn't feeling happy, I thought, is I just have to work more. I just have to be more productive. And it sounds silly now, like nobody felt better by working more. That's so true. But that's what I thought at the time. And now I have a different outlook in that the brain is no, the brain's not a muscle, but it's no different than

41:32
muscle that if you work it all day, it's just going to collapse. Some of the things that over the past 18 months, I'm not sure if it's daily activities, but it's a change in outlook that for me is not to push so hard, realize

42:00
that you can only do so much in a day and you need to take, it can sound selfish at first, but it's exactly right that you need to take care of yourself. Otherwise you're of help to nobody. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. It's interesting you say that about

42:24
work because I used to be a lecturer at a couple of different institutes and the first one that I was at, we were away at a work retreat and I was chatting to a professor and an associate professor. So in New Zealand it's like lecturer, senior lecturer, then a couple of different grades and then professors obviously top notch. I don't know how it is in Canada.

42:49
They and they were saying that are you know if you want to be successful in academia you have to just expect to work nights and weekends. That's just the way it is you know and so it's funny you mentioned earlier on that people assume that being an academic is like this dream life whereas but there's real pressure put on academics to continue to be productive and put out works and come up with research studies and do the publications mentor people through and i actually.

43:17
I think it was at that time that I had in my head, this isn't gonna be a long-term gig for me. I'm not gonna be one of these people that are here for 25 years, because I just knew in my personality, because work is the thing I do until my brain gets too tired to do anymore. It's just the way that some people are wired. And I could see even then that that wasn't going to be a good long-term sort of thing that I could do actually.

43:44
Yeah, and I want to kind of not necessarily backtrack but put a caveat into what I'm saying because I don't want to have it come across that this is easy to do. And it wasn't easy for me, but it was easier because I'm in a position where I have some flexibility. I'm working from home. If in between meetings I need to go for a walk, I go for a walk, not

44:15
everybody is in that position. And so there may be stressors, whether it's work, or you're taking care of small kids where you can't fit in that time right there and then. So other things that that probably have seeped into my day to day life is in that we were

44:42
trained to do is have like some sort of self care list or toolbox. And there'll be times when I feel alone. And a lot of times when you feel alone, you want to feel alone, like it's kind of. But I will try to do something what's called opposite action.

45:12
And I would text a friend or maybe go out for a walk and be around people. And or make even if somebody I can't connect with right away, but make a see if I can make a coffee date or a lunch date or a dinner date with somebody. And so it's

45:41
It's fighting like, it's not that you do stop having that urge because it's probably going to come but seeing what you can do and it's kind of that stress like, okay, I know I'm going to be stressed by the commute home. So what can I do? You know, one one thing for me, I noticed this is very personal, like I like listening to music in the car. But I would spend

46:09
so much time going through the different radio stations to find a song I liked. And that would actually be stressful for me. So I just stopped listening to the radio and just listened to music on my phone when I'm like through the car. So then I know it's all songs I like. If I'm not feeling like that song, I can forward it to another one that and that's made a big difference.

46:39
And other things like long car rides is, you know, identifying those triggers is probably, and they can be all individual and different, but identifying those triggers, building that awareness, then you can start to look at strategies. Okay, I'm not going to avoid that trigger, but how can I minimize that? Can I, you know, before I go on that 12-hour car ride family vacation, what's the plan?

47:09
How often are we going to stop? Can I pack the car, then take a break before getting in the car and driving instead of having it like throw everything in the car and then throw everybody in the car and jump in and go? Even the way you say that sounds chaotic and oh my goodness, but no, I appreciate what you're saying. I really liked what you said about the self-care toolbox.

47:38
because I feel like, you know, there are these, you know, people will often read strategies with which they can help unwind de-stress both in the moment and also sort of later on. But sometimes they are things which are just completely impossible for that person, like the, you know, they literally cannot get out for a 10 minute walk or there's no way that they can go and sit in a sauna. Sorry, I don't have 20 minutes to sit in a sauna or the, you know, access to something like that. But if you're able to write down.

48:08
whole, like just collate a list of things as simple as texting a friend to as expensive as going and having a float, I don't know, in one of those float tanks, you know, but they're hopefully in the moment, there will actually be something that you can do. So it doesn't feel like, well, I can't go and have a float now. So my whole day is ruined. Yeah. So it can be like, so it can be quite simple.

48:38
depending on the service. So on my list, I've got have a piece of chocolate. Yeah, nice. Just one though, right? I mean, yes, no, I don't. Just kidding. And but doing something that makes you feel better in the moment for

49:08
With others, it could be like thinking of a happy memory that gets you through it. Maybe it's chewing some gum or if you can, putting on some music and listening to a song or even one of those like white noise apps where you're listening to the rain or something like that. Yeah.

49:35
I like the press ups and squats as well, just for a change in your physical state. Yeah. And so that idea of taking that physical break, and so not me, but exercise scientists have coined it as an exercise snack. So you're snacking activity and the idea it's only like a minute to two minutes. And

50:04
some of the like, this has been ingrained into a lot of creative writers day. So there's some interviews with Dan Brown, who, yeah, and he, he, like, I've heard this in multiple interviews, different interviews, where he's, he says that he gets, he programs his computer to lock

50:33
every hour for a couple minutes to force him to stop writing. He says he doesn't leave his office, he just gets down on the floor, does some pushups and sit-ups. And that little break gives him a boost of creativity to go for the next bit. And other writers will talk

51:04
the writing and coming back and, and all this jumble in your head, all of a sudden starts to feel neatly just by removing yourself from the situation. So yeah, and depending on your situation working, can you do squats or jumping jacks or something like that besides your desk? Yeah. Nice, Scott. Um, has this like, has your experienced?

51:32
informed any of your research work like your in health behavior and yeah, have you sort of given it or is that just one step too far and actually no? No, I would say so. Like even with my blog writing, you could probably see a trend, not that I'm suggesting anybody go back and read six years of my blog writing, but you can see a trend that as I started to not feel

52:01
so great, started feeling worse. What I was writing about, I was writing more about mental health, writing more about exercise and mental health, I was looking into that. It has had some effect, not so much physical activity and mental health. I'm definitely

52:31
I've had a shift in interest from the physical benefits of activity, which I'm still interested into looking at, like the mental, the cognitive types. Even that, taking that physical activity break can help you be more productive in what you're doing, can enhance creativity, can it prevent cognitive decline.

53:00
dementia later in life. And so there's interest in looking at some of those aspects. And is it something I'm interested in? Is there a difference between going for your run on your regular running route, which you could probably think about?

53:28
other things while doing that. It's great activity as opposed to, let's say, going playing tennis or going playing basketball where it's physically demanding but also has a mental demand as well that's different from running your regular running route around your

53:57
But does sitting writing something, doing some creative writing or research writing or writing a report, is that different than, let's say, sitting as a clerk in a grocery store or sitting as a parking attendant in a parcade where both people are sitting, but the mental...

54:26
load or the mental challenge is different. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And when you say that, I'm thinking back to there's a show, Better Call Saul, and there was the parking attendant, which wasn't really a parking attendant, was he? He was more of a, you know, I don't work for the mafia. But he would do crosswords. You know, that was a good way to keep his brain active. Scott, do you know, I had, as you said in your email to me, Mickey, we've only got an hour,

54:55
Uh, we've managed to sort of chat about one one's topic and haven't even really moved on to the research stuff, which you, which, which I'm really also interested to chat to you about. So hopefully we can save that for another time. Um, can you give us a, uh, tell listeners where they can find your writing and of course your podcast as well. So you're very prolific on, but the airways and writing as well. It's super impressive. Can you get just.

55:24
tell people where they can find you? Yeah, certainly. So my blog is DrScottLear.com. And then I co-host a podcast with a former undergraduate student who's in my second year course who approached me on that's called How to Health. And that's available on Spotify, Apple, Google platforms. And I'm also.

55:52
you know, varying levels of Activeness on Twitter, Instagram, I have a tick tock account and it's all at Dr. Yeah, it's, I don't do funny tick tock. So Okay, I'm not dead. I'm not dancing or anything. And they're all at Dr. Scott Lear.

56:16
That is awesome Scott. Thank you so much for taking the time to chat to me about this. I find it, it's really valuable I think for people to hear personal stories and how people have sort of the tools and strategies that people have used to help overcome that sort of aspect. But also just, I think because you're so open about it, I think that's really super helpful as well. So we will pop links to your channels, including TikTok.

56:45
in the show notes and hopefully it's fine for me to touch base and we can chat about your research on another occasion. Oh certainly and thanks so much Mickey for giving me the the space and opportunity to share as well. You know it's uh it can be as I said when also you share things like it's not always easy and there are different barriers and challenges.

57:14
Most times when people do share what's really going on inside, they feel better afterwards. Yeah, no, I agree. So thank you so much, Scott. Okay, thanks a lot.

57:39
Alright team, hopefully you enjoyed that. And in fact, I had a number of topics I wanted to talk to Scott about, but we didn't really get past this first one because that's what happens, time flies, when you have a conversation like that. So I'm really hoping to get him on to chat more about his research in the heart health and his own personal sort of journey there. Next week on the podcast, I have...

58:02
returning fan favourite Dr Dan Plews and we talk about his training, we talk about Chelsea Sedaro's training and what Dan's interested in right now so be sure to tune in next week. But until then though, you can catch me over on Instagram, thread and Twitter @mikkiwilliden, Facebook @mikkiwilliden.com or head to my website mikkiwilliden.com

58:28
Book a one-on-one call with me. All right, team, you have a fantastic week. See you later.