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00:03
Welcome, hi, I'm Mikki and this is Mikkipedia, where I sit down and chat to doctors, professors, athletes, practitioners, and experts in their fields related to health, nutrition, fitness, and wellbeing, and I'm delighted that you're here.

00:25
Hey everyone, it's Mikki here. You're listening to Mikkipedia and this week on the podcast, I am delighted to bring to you the conversation that I had with Brandon Da Cruz. He's like one of the goats in the physique and body transformation space. And I would say that if there's anything that Brandon doesn't know, it is probably not worth knowing about. So we discussed what got Brandon interested in diet and fitness initially.

00:54
what fuels his desire now to stay current and relevant in the space, which is largely driven by the persistent myths that exist here and how he addresses these myths with evidence-based information. And that evidence comes not only from his tireless work at staying up to date with the literature, but of course, his own clinical experience and what he sees with his clients.

01:20
We discuss common mistakes that people make when trying to transform their physique, what people can expect if they work with Brandon, the concept of energy flux, the importance of stress management, and so much more. Brandon is a wealth of information and it is mind blowing the amount that he knows. And we even kick off the episode just chatting about something random which was not part of our episode debrief. And he just...

01:49
goes for it. He is amazing. So for those of you unfamiliar with Brandon, Brandon de Cruz is an online nutrition and physique coach and sports nutritionist. He is also a national level NPC physique competitor and an internationally published fitness model who's written articles and filmed educational content for publications like Men's Fitness Magazine and Bodybuilding.com.

02:14
Brandon has spent over 12 years working within the sports nutrition and fitness industries and has coached every type of athlete, including Olympia level professional men's physique competitors, college athletes, MMA fighters, crossfit competitors, and lifestyle clients. If you follow Brandon on Instagram, he does a great job of profiling all levels of his clientele. It is awesome.

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what's been proven in research with his own anecdotal and first hand in the trenches experience. To improve body composition, optimize performance and enhance health in order to help his clients achieve their goals, whether that be building muscle, losing body fat, increasing performance and or optimizing health and longevity. So this is what Brandon refers to as his health centric coaching model, as he believes that improving one's health is the cornerstone to optimizing their physical goals.

03:12
So you can see there are a lot of synergies with the values that both Brandon and I have, which just made this for a great conversation. So I've put a link to where you can find Brandon on both his Instagram page and of course his website. And of course he has a podcast, Chasing Clarity, and I've got a link into his podcast as well. And you will just learn so much from him there.

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conversation I would just like to remind you that the best way to support this podcast is to hit the subscribe button on your favorite podcast listening platform and that increases the visibility of the podcast out there and amongst the literally thousands of other podcasts so more people get the opportunity to learn from the guests that I have on this show. Alright guys enjoy the conversation that I have with Brandon Da Cruz

04:08
loading when I push stop. Perfect. Sounds good. Amazing. Is it an aura ring you've got there? I do. Right there. What do you think of them? Are they good? Are they worth it? I'm going to be honest with you. I've went through three of them so far. So I'm not going to say that they're good in terms of durability, but I will say that if you actually look into research on aura rings, not great. They're not going to be comparative to polysynography. Nothing is going to be, but from a sleep tracker perspective, probably the best in terms of awareness, at least for sleep depth.

04:35
I really like it. It's very accurate for for resting heart rate heart rate. I don't actually trust the HRV. And obviously there's there's a lot of literature on HRV. We really can't use it in the context of resistance training. However, it really has allowed me to be more cognizant of my sleep patterns of the time I'm going to sleep the sleep latency some deviation. So I don't drink alcohol, but for instance, I have many clients that do so we're able to see these little

04:59
deviations in their sleep quality, their sleep length, and their sleep latency as a result of things that they may not have realized. So in the States now, marijuana is legalized. It's not something I've partaken, but many of my clients do, and we've seen deviations in their sleep quality as a result of that. Oh, that is interesting. I wouldn't have anticipated that with marijuana actually. You know, I've always... There are so many things that you can track with sleep and diet and exercise and, you know, feelings and all the rest of it.

05:28
And there are definitely personality types, I think, that could get quite, obsessive isn't the word, but a little bit obsessive, maybe it is. No, absolutely. And there is something called orthosomnia. So that is an obsession about sleep that actually limits your ability to actually get to sleep. So for instance, if someone is obsessive about their sleep, they're so worried about not getting good sleep that night before that it becomes just like any.

05:52
obsession, it becomes limiting, self-limiting. So I don't allow it to do that. I will tell you personally, and this is what I do with my clients as well. Not every one of my clients utilizes this. It's about a $300 device in the States. So it's just not within everyone's budget. But if I, and I tell this to my clients, I do the same thing. Listen, do not reinforce negative biases. So if you know that you didn't get a good night's sleep the night before, you don't need to track your order to see that it says five hours and that you're in the red. That's actually, are you familiar with the whoop device? Yeah.

06:20
Okay, so I utilize the whoop as well. I've utilized Apple watch, all these different things. With the whoop, I really didn't like, first of all, it doesn't have a step tracker. So that was a little bit off for me. And then the other thing is it's all on a color device. It's almost like the Redscat. You know what I mean? Where it's like, well, now they have a new Redscat, but the old one was like yellow, orange, red, or green, yellow, red. And as soon as you see the red, it's just a reinforcing thing within your head, like, oh, I shouldn't train today.

06:46
Really, that's not what it is. We all have been in a state of mind or in a place in our lives. We got a shitty night of sleep the night before. Yes, sleep has detrimental impacts on a long-term perspective on performance, body composition, appetite. But one day, it's not going to make or break you. They've actually done sleep deprivation studies for 24 hours where they look at power performance in pretty high-level strength athletes. Within one day, let's keep in the context of one day, it doesn't show a diminishment in peak power. Take that with what you will. But a lot of times, I'm like, listen,

07:16
If I want to track it, I do it over a week scale. And I only look back a week later. So when I put it into a tracker for myself, but I only look at back, you know, the closest I will be will be several days away from that night's sleep. Yeah, great. That's so good. And it's really interesting what you say about confirming that negative bias. So many people do that around, or the stress that it creates, really has an impact on how people then approach diet or the...

07:43
social setting or the sort of situation they're in, which of course we're going to talk a lot about on today's podcast. Absolutely. Haven't really introduced you, will do in the intro, absolutely. But you were just like straight into it, Brandon. I'm so using this for my podcast. Oh wow, I didn't even realize we were rolling. Oh yeah, we're totally rolling. And look at you, oh God. I'm glad to hear it. You were just like out the gate, it's awesome. But you know, this time of year around Christmas, so many people stress about the things that they can't control.

08:12
the social setting and the food environment. And I think that, and this is what I tell my clients, and I'm pretty sure you'd probably say the same thing, that the stress that that person creates in their head about the upcoming situation is likely gonna be far worse than actually just going along and enjoying whatever is on their plate. 100%, I think a lot of times, and this is something we're all guilty of doing,

08:41
Oftentimes, we forecast something into the future, which may not even take place, whether it be, say, a stressful situation where we think we're going to be pressured into drinking alcohol or into overindulging, or we think we're going to slip off our plan. It almost becomes like a self-fulfilling prophecy, meaning you forecast this into the future, and then you end up going off and doing that same thing. So, a lot of times with the holidays, especially, we have to realize, and I try to make this, really try to separate this concept out.

09:10
Like realize that food is a part of our culture. It isn't, I'm a nutritionist, you have a PhD in nutrition. So like we are people that are very integrated into this. And this is a massive component in my life, but at the same time I realized food is a part of our culture, food is a part of engagement. It's a part of community. Think about the expression breaking bread. Like that has been since the beginning of time, we've utilized that statement and that analogy essentially. And so I really try to get clients to realize, not to stress about those things, but also to realize that

09:40
And occasion should not just be about the food. And I think that being able to take a step back, be a little bit more mindful about these occasions and realize that this occasion, say it be we just passed Thanksgiving in the States or whether it be Christmas, which is gonna be coming up in the next week and a half, just realize that really the occasion is about getting together with people that you love and make it about that first and foremost, the food and all the indulgences that come along with it should be a secondary benefit of it. But it should never be the focus because I do find that a lot of people that have

10:09
what I would refer to as a restriction-based mindset. So they're restricting themselves, you know, excessively all the time. And then they're kind of those personalities that they swing from different extremes of the pendulum. So they're on plan and they're off the plan. They have dichotomous thinking about nutrition in terms of blackened mentality. There's good food, there's bad food. You know, there's their cheat days and then there's on diet days. And it's almost like they're on the bandwagon or they're completely off and they're veering off the beaten path essentially. And so if we can just get into more of a mindset of moderation and mindfulness.

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around nutrition, around training, around movement, around all these things and realize there are times to indulge in and enjoy ourselves, but never make it just about that. It shouldn't be that this is an anticipatory event that is giving you stress, it's giving you anxiety, or it's giving you such a craving, like you're over. So for instance, there's many strategies that we could utilize to curtail the decremental effects of overindulging during a holiday, but one strategy that I used to utilize with clients, so I'm guilty of this myself.

11:04
But I will say that I've changed my ways. I've been coaching over 10 years at this point. And so over the years, I've realized that this isn't a good approach is a lot of people will excessively restrict themselves prior to the holiday themselves. So that could be fasting. That was something I was never really into, but people will fast the entire day of a holiday or an occasion or celebratory event, or they'll under consume in the days previous. And a lot of times all that does is increase hunger hormones. It's an increase your drive, your appetite, your drive to eat essentially, and then you're gonna overdo it as a result of almost,

11:34
the preceding factors in which you set yourself up. So a lot of times what I try to tell clients to do, go to that day in a normal setting. So it could be that you cut back on the energy dense food sources that you have earlier in the day, but you prioritize protein in a plant. So that could be protein and veggies, or protein and a fruit source, something that's fiber containing, something that's going to be highly satiating. Start your meal off. I really have a couple of rules when it comes to work, or principles, high priority principles that I really try to get clients to integrate around holiday meals where.

12:01
calories are going to be abundant to say the least. And so that can be what I refer to as a two cup rule. So let's utilize, get a diet Coke and a water and drink that before your meal. So we're going to have that, that essentially you're going to increase satiety, you know, essentially stretching the gastric receptors in the stomach, which initiate fullness, you know, a fullness response in the hypothalamus of your brain. It could be starting your meal off with a large, you know, great serving of a nutrient dense protein source and some veggies or salad. So you're going to increase your satiety value.

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the indulgent things that are energy dense, like your cakes and your pastas and all these different things that you really look forward to, you're less likely to overdo it and feel guilt as a result. And then also another factor to that is not overly restricting yourself in the day or the weeks prior so that you don't go into that meal in a predisposed state to overeat. But if you see that you did overeat, and that's all well and good, we all make mistakes. And when it comes to a holiday, it really even shouldn't be looked at as a mistake. We shouldn't be punishing ourselves.

12:59
proceeding that. However, if you did go over your calorie budget for the week or whatever it may be, we could take the next couple of days and just pull back a little bit. Think about it. You had a ton of food, you have more than enough energy. And I'll tell you personally, I generally don't have any clients dieting unless they're competitors during the holiday season. So most of them are at maintenance or in a surplus. So now we have more than enough exogenous energy and endogenous energy, so sword substrates. And so then the next couple of days, we can pull things back a little bit. We can take carbs around.

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meals that aren't in the peri-workout perimeter. So not your pre or post-workout meal, but in those later meals, we can go with utilizing something like a fiber-rich veggie source rather than a starchy carbohydrate. And just little swaps, we can take out the oil in your meal or the nuts in your meal, something that's going to eliminate a hundred calories, but isn't really going to take away from the satiety value or the protein amount in that meal, which is more beneficial from a satiety aspect and adherence aspect, and then also from a stimulating muscle protein synthesis aspect, which is really vital, especially on a...

13:57
a time by time basis in terms of optimizing body composition and muscle retention or building. Yeah, no, I love that. And, you know, people often catastrophize that one or two days of overeating, but in the big scheme of things that really, you know, and I mean, you, Brandon, must be one of the most informed literature based. Your brain, I just, your brain just works so like, amazingly, it seems like you must remember almost everything you read, because you like people would be listening to this going,

14:27
Is he reading off something? And you're literally just coming out of your mouth. But as I understand it from the literature, it actually, from a metabolism perspective, when we overeat, our body just ends up working harder to oxidize the energy. And you're actually, like, fat gain is, it's not, fat gain isn't an inevitable part of overeating for a day. Of course, if you do it several days in a row, we're gonna be gaining body fat because you're in a surplus.

14:56
but one day is not really neither here nor there. And in fact, you probably just get a really great workout the next day because of it. 100%, there are so many benefits to really embracing that and realizing that it isn't this, I try to look at things through a context of moderation and not bullseye or bust. It's not on plan, off plan, or you mess something up in the process. There is no, you can't F this up essentially. As long as you're consistent, and it's what we do consistently over time that really makes the difference. So what you do...

15:22
habitually, not what you do one day out of the year or one day a week or whatever it may be. And so within that meal, even if we look at the context of overfeeding, so if we go back to a study by Levine et al., 1999, he did an overfeeding study for eight weeks and they gave these individuals, both males and females, a thousand calories over their maintenance calorie intake. Now, hear me out on this. Most people are not going to be able and wouldn't be able to eat that much more than their daily intake. And so think about it, even if you want a thousand calories over in a day, most people are...

15:51
really catastrophizing that they're going to gain fat in this. However, when we actually look at the results of the study, first of all, they saw a massive increase on the average in meat. So, non-exercise activity thermogenesis, where the average participant increased their totally the energy expenditure by an average, I believe, of 328 calories. However, there was one individual that increased his non-exercise activity thermogenesis by 700. So, he burned off 70% of that. And now keep in mind, not only did he get an increase in...

16:18
Neat. We also see an increase in thermic effect to feeding. So think about it. If you increase your calories by a thousand calories, generally on average, the average person, their thermic effect to feeding accounts for 10% of their total daily energy expenditure. So if we take a thousand, we get 10% of that, that's a hundred calorie increase. So you can add that to the average of 328 calories. So now we're at 428 calories. Also, we see in overfeeding studies, there's an overfeeding study by Harris et al., which actually Levine is a secondary author on this and it's 2005.

16:45
And they looked at overfeeding in the same context, but they specifically looked at increases in RMR from chronic overfeeding of eight weeks length. And they saw up to a 15% increase in participants resting metabolic rate. So say we go on average, the average in that study was 10%. So you increase that by another 100 calories. So now you've overfed by a thousand calories chronically. And you went from having a thousand calorie surplus to increasing your energy expenditure by 528 calories. However, we forgot about one component.

17:12
of your total energy expenditure because there's four. And that's what you alluded to. That is your exercise activity thermogenesis. So if you're able to take that increase in glycogen storage and you're able to be able to really transfer that into having more conducive, more intense and more progressive training sessions in the days that precede that, you're getting better pumps in the gym, better nutrient delivery, all these things. There are so many benefits from them, especially if you stay active within the process. Yeah, totally. And it's interesting, Brandon, because you've mentioned a couple of times

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the idea of moderation. And you've worked with several hundred, if not thousands of clients over the last 10 years. Do you think everyone is capable of moderation? No, to be completely frank with you. And so I think that there's some, there's a concept by Gretchen Rubin, I believe. And we have moderators and we have abstainers. And so I do think that there are people that fall into that category. And so really within that, I think as a coach, this, you know, when it comes to coaching, I always say that it goes far beyond the X and O's of,

18:11
calories and macros with nutrition and sets and reps in the gym. And what I mean by that is you have to get to know the client's personality type, their preferences, their abilities, their constraints. And also one big thing that I look at every single client that I work with, I'm always trying to, I kind of work like a detective, I'm sure you can relate to that feeling. You're trying to look for the blind spots that they have because none of us, ourselves included as nutritional professionals can be a hundred percent objective with ourselves.

18:36
And so that's where it really helps to have someone in your corner. So one thing I look for, or one category that I look for within the clientele that I work with, is for what I refer to as bottlenecks or anchors. So think about what a bottleneck is, or an anchor. It's something holding you back. So what could that be? That could be that someone has this dichotomous relationship with food or a poor relationship with food, where it's either they're nailing things to a T, it's 100%, they're aiming for perfection, or they're literally off the beaten path, and it's like they had the F, you know, what the F mentality, where one little mistake.

19:05
essentially go down an entire snowball effect. I try to analogize it to, if you got a flat tire on your car, would you slash the rest of your three tires? No, you would get a spare. You would make do with what you have. I would encourage people to look towards a path of moderation, but I will say that not everyone can do that. I'm not saying that they can't do it in every aspect. I'm saying in certain aspects. For instance, I'll give you an example. There's a lot of debate in the literature about...

19:34
not only food addiction, but also about cravings. And if you actually look into literature on cravings, a lot of the psychologists and the researchers behind this will say the best method to eliminate a craving is actually, they call it starve a craving. They actually put this in the literature, to starve your cravings. So some individuals, I think they would do best by eliminating, or for instance, for a period of time going without that, so abstaining from exposing themselves to what would be considered a trigger food, something that is causing them to overeat. It's in their environment. So that could be...

20:03
taking it out of your household, or if you have family, friends, or you live with loved ones, put it in the back of a cabinet, put it in the back of the refrigerator, put some effort barriers within your way from you just effortlessly grabbing at this and eating it. And so there are some people like that. And then there are other incredible individuals. I have a good friend and esteemed colleague, Alan Aragon, who he can literally have a piece of chocolate every single night. And obviously he's known as the flexible dieting guy. So he's someone that has really, he's really well versed in this literature.

20:32
but that's his personality type. And I've been out to dinner with him before and he can literally have little something of indulgent and just put it away. And I had the utmost respect for that, but I'll tell you from a competitive aspect, I could not do that when I was competing. I competed 15 times in physique competitions over the years. And if I had one thing, it was, we're getting the whole, I'm eating the whole thing. So I know that about myself and I also have seen that with clients. So I think that from a coaching perspective, we really have to take an individualized approach and really counsel our clients on that and say, listen, we can try this out. We can try to include,

21:01
say a discretionary calorie budget. So 200 calories per day, where you spend that, you allocate that part of your budget towards any foods that you fancy, essentially. Or if you see that that 200 calorie discretionary budget becomes 2000 calories, because they're unable time and time again to moderate it, that's where we may have to take that out of the plan, focus really more on whole foods, really building a nutrient-dense diet, eliminating cravings, getting them back to energy balance, really focusing on fueling themselves adequately. And then we can see if we can reintegrate that into an approach where they're now...

21:31
in a better place, both physiologically and psychologically. Yeah, no, I really love that. And I'm absolutely an Ellen Aragon. I can easily have a square of chocolate and I'm like, sweet, I'm done. And it can drive some people nuts. But I do wonder how much of that is a learned behavior as well, like, because I've been in, I mean, I've probably been obsessed with nutrition since I was like 12, you know? So that's a good old, like almost 35 years of thinking about this stuff.

21:58
And so I wonder, and I don't think I've always been like that. I know in my teenage years, I was like a chubby teenager and I was always dieting with my mom. And then we would like go on binges and stuff like that. It was almost part of our loving mother daughter relationship. And I love my mother and I absolutely don't blame her for that, it's just what you did back then. But I think that over time, because the more I sort of understood, I guess myself, and I also had the benefit of

22:27
say benefit, people are going to go, what is she talking about? But Weight Watchers actually was really great at allowing me to understand the power of volume in food and those low energy dense foods. I don't think that Weight Watchers gets enough kudos for that. I'm certainly, I don't particularly endorse the entire program, but there are definitely principles which I got a lot from. And I think that just over time, you just learn stuff

22:56
and learn how you feel when you do sort of go on a bender and you do have that sort of all or nothing approach where when you're all in and then at the end of it, you just feel like terrible. I think over the years I've learned that that's not, that doesn't make me feel good. But I do think as well, Brandon, that I definitely have that restrictive personality type.

23:19
as well. So for someone like me and a lot of my colleagues actually, I read a study once saying that dietitians and nutritionists were very good at restriction compared to the general population. Yeah, I think that that's something which some people have that personality type where they're able to enjoy just a small amount, whereas others just really struggle. Absolutely. And I think that a lot of times people don't realize how we come to the profession we're at. So I'll tell you personally.

23:48
How I got into nutrition was essentially added necessity, to be honest with you. And so it was really an effort. I have such an amount of respect and love for nutrition, but it really came from a point of trying to restore my health and my performance because I essentially, you know, I was a competitive athlete growing up. I was very active as a young individual and I started getting into weight controlled sports. So I competed in martial arts and then I also competed in indoor and outdoor track and cross country.

24:15
All these sorts of you really think about the commonality between them. They all have a weight control aspect where at that time at least, lighter was seen as being better. You're trying to increase your better, your power to weight ratio. And so I was really coached in a method where the coaches that I had and the influences around me really stress the need to watch my weight. And so even, we're talking middle school, I was already being told about calories and food intake and I started tracking the food that I was eating. And now mind you, it was in a calorie counting journal.

24:43
we didn't have any of these trackers. That was a great way to learn about nutrition. To be honest with you, I started developing the symptoms of what's now known as relative energy efficiency. However, the thing is that this was the early 2000s. The concept hadn't even been recognized because the actual concept of relative energy efficiency in sport wasn't termed until the International Olympic Committee essentially put out a consensus statement on 2014.

25:08
10 years earlier than this. So they didn't understand what was going on with me, but I basically was in a state of chronic low energy availability where I was exercising for hours a day. We're talking three to four hours a day at a minimum, and then under fueling myself purposely to keep my weight down. And so I think that what you're speaking about, like, you know, some of the things that you've learned, the same thing can be said about me. So I know the background that I had, and I think that I touch on a lot of topics, whether it be metabolic adaptation or fueling yourself effectively or energy flux. And it's because I've seen the negative ramifications

25:38
of being in an underfield state. So it's really funny how things we, even within our childhood, they have lasting impressions on us, experiences we had with our parents, with coaches, with our athletics growing up. And this shapes the way that we work with our clients, as well as some of the things we go into from an educational perspective, the things we learn about, or even the concepts that we cover on podcasts or that we try to educate and warn other people about. And so it's really interesting to hear that from you, because I see that within my own life that...

26:06
A lot of times I'm speaking with clients and trying to help them avoid many of the mistakes I made previously so that they don't have to go through the same repercussions and consequences that I unknowingly went through, especially this is 20 plus years ago. So keep in mind that the accessible information that we have today, coaching wasn't even a thing. It wasn't even an industry. So I didn't have the guidance professionally that we had the ability. I didn't have the information as well that we have the ability to access now. Yeah, absolutely. And you mentioned that.

26:35
You know, your coaching is such a great platform for helping clients avoid some of the mistakes that you made. And you just sort of mentioned a couple of them. Brandon, what are some of the common things that you see, common mistakes that you see your clients make like that, that you feel like that are easily avoided and what sort of tactics do you take with your clients? Yeah. So I think honestly, when it comes down to it, I work with such a wide demographic of individuals that

27:03
I'm seeing a lot of different mistakes, but I think really when it comes down to it, if I'm talking about common mistakes that I'm seeing in terms of the vast majority of people that come to me. So I've worked with everyone from IFBB pros on the Olympia level stage to your lifestyle clients. So I have Lifestyle Lisa and Genpop Jim, and then I have guys that literally do this as a profession. And so a couple of the several common mistakes that I noticed with many of the people that contact me is I think the number one mistake would be when people come to like, they're talking about nutrition, they're focusing on that.

27:33
And what ends up happening is they get stuck in a certain way of doing things. They become very, they essentially get in their own way and they're scared of making changes. And the vast majority of people are fearful of changes. But you have to realize that, and we both know this, but many people don't realize that nothing in life will change or improve unless you're willing to make changes yourself. So I find that many get emotionally attached to a specific style of eating or to a specific dietary approach and they'll follow it and continue to do so even if it isn't working for them.

28:02
We are creatures of comfort, essentially. And so if you get comfortable with something or you feel like you belong to a group or to a camp, you fear losing that connection or feeling of community if they try something new. So one thing I often try to remind my clients of is the fact that if they were to continue, prior to coming to me, they were doing something repeatedly for years and it wasn't working. And if it didn't work multiple times for them, why would you continue doing it if that approach isn't yielding the results and progress they're looking for?

28:32
Another thing, and I'll say this from the context, we were just speaking about relative energy efficiency, another huge common mistake that I find with many people is they're constantly engaging in chronic dieting cycles. So if we actually look at the research on this, research finds that around 42% of males and up to 61% of females report going on a diet each and every year in an attempt to lose weight. So around half of adults are in a deficit at some point in the year. And the population I work with, I find that many have a history.

28:59
of chronic dieting, where they end up swinging from extreme to extreme and jump from diet to diet, which results in this vicious cycle where they lose weight by over-restricting themselves and cutting calories literally as aggressively as they can only to regain that weight after as a result of that. And then what ends up happening is the cycle restarts because now they've regained the weight that they lost and they feel the need to go right back into a deficit to lose the weight that they've regained. So...

29:22
What I try to get across to my clients that are in this position is that we need to be more strategic and periodized in our approach to nutrition, where we pick our spots and we diet in a more intelligent manner. So they'll be able to lose fat and keep it off. And then we're able to spend the vast majority of the year outside of a deficit so they can recover metabolically from the diet and focus on building lean mass, which is what's going to significantly improve their body composition. Because if you just continue to try to stay in a diet and a deficit year round, you're

29:50
you're not going to attain that lean muscular physique that so many people come to us for because you're not dedicating and allocating long periods of time, focus on building that muscle tissue. And muscle is a very slow process. So if you're constantly in a deficit, you're never giving yourself, you know, you're always in this restriction-based mindset. Really what I try to get across to clientele is, let's focus on shifting that paradigm and going into an abundance-based mindset. What can we add to your program? What things can we build upon? What other aspects can we focus on besides trying to become

30:19
a smaller, lighter version of yourself. Yeah, and I really like what you said about that restriction mindset because it almost is a separate entity, if you like, from what's actually happening on the plate because someone can be in a restrictive mindset, yet still be overeating and still be doing the Monday to Thursday diet, yet doing the Friday to Sunday, you know, sort of blowout without even really realizing it. And if they shift how they're feeling about it, they can really take advantage of

30:48
Well, they can take advantage of having that abundance mindset. They do eat more in certain periods. I mentioned the week calorie cycle, but I'm even thinking three weeks in a deficit, one week maybe at maintenance or whatever. The effect is a positive one rather than having that not only physical detrimental effect of increased fat gain, but the way that they feel about it is negative as well.

31:18
to me is such an important piece of it. No, absolutely. I think what I refer to that as is the weekday dieter. So a lot of people will diet Monday through Friday when things are hectic or they're able to really like reel things in and they're kind of just just getting by essentially in terms of their energy needs but also their ability, they're white knuckling it essentially. And then the weekend comes and they have more time or they have social engagements, they have family and friends around and then it's like all bets are off. So.

31:44
ends up happening, there's both physiological ramifications of that and psychological ramifications. So hear me out on this. Physiologically, if you're in a deficit most of the week, and especially if you're under eating, so you're in the state of low energy availability, you are down regulating all your physiological systems. So we're seeing decreases in leptin. We're seeing decreases in resting metabolic rate, decreases in energy expenditure, especially from the knee component, because you're a little bit more sluggish. Your subconscious activity is going down. So Monday through Friday, you're in this restriction-based mindset, both

32:11
You know, internally in terms of the way that you're approaching food, the way that you're approaching fueling yourself, but also in terms of your physiology, you're going, you're getting diet induced metabolic adaptations. However, what ends up happening is you're essentially slowing down all components of your total daily energy expenditure Monday through Friday. Then you overeat on the weekend. You don't just go back to maintenance like we would do in a refeed fashion or in a diet break fashion. You go above maintenance. You're having hyper-playable foods, pizza, beer, wings, alcohol, things of that sort.

32:39
And now you're noticing, and these are the individuals that come to me and say, I have one free meal or one cheat meal and it sticks to me, or I have a cheat day and I can't get the weight off and I diet the rest of the week. And it's like, yes, you've down-regulated yourself physiologically, but also you're in a restriction-based mindset most of the week. And so now you feel like you're dieting so much, you're constantly in this chronic dieting cycle. Cause yes, the vast majority of the week, five out of seven days. So whatever that comes out to 80 plus percent of the week, you're in a deficit. However, what ends up happening is you're overeating so much on the weekends.

33:08
that it's actually undoing that deficit. However, you're both physiologically downregulated and also mentally you feel restricted as well as feel extremely frustrated because one thing is to go into an energy deficit which is a form of energy restriction. There is cognitive restraint that's involved in it. However, you're putting undue stress on yourself because now you're not even getting a benefit for the work that you're putting in, for the restriction you're putting in and you're creating this really dichotomous seesaw.

33:35
essentially, where you're going from under-eating, under-fueling yourself, having really poor training sessions, to overeating yourself with nutrient-avoid foods, essentially. You're not even getting the performance benefits, the body composition benefits from a fat loss perspective as well as from, if we were to utilize, say, an undulating calorie cycle, or we were to utilize a 5-2 diet in terms of five days in a deficit, two days at maintenance, and really refeeding with carbohydrates, like in the study that was done by Bill Campbell in 2020, where they're getting increases in resting metabolic rate. They had better...

34:04
or maintenance of their dry fat free mass, they saw a lot of physiological benefits. And also they saw hunger dissipated and they were able to adhere to the diet in a really good fashion. So you're not getting the benefits, but you're getting all the drawbacks. And that's really where I try to speak with clients. Let's pick our spots and really be strategic with how we approach, you know, fat loss, especially. Yeah. And is this where your concept of energy flux sort of comes in with you and you're working with your clients, Brandon? Or is this? And then like.

34:32
Can you talk me through energy flux? Yeah, absolutely. Because I've heard you talk about it a number of times and I think it's such a great concept. Yeah, so energy flux, that actually came from the fact that I was seeing such down regulations and energy expenditure. And I was noticing that people weren't hitting the rate of loss targets. And this was myself as well. So in 2015, I started noticing, I started utilizing a step tracker. So a Fitbit, it was like generation one Fitbit. And I started noticing that, like, I would track it in the off season. And then I was, you know.

34:57
couple, maybe a month into a contest prep, and I noticed some of my steps fell precipitously. It was getting harder for me to actually make fat loss progress. This is before I was hearing anyone really talk about me and the importance of it. When I really got keyed up on the research on that, I started utilizing step tracking with clients. Then it snowballed into this energy flux concept. I'll give you an introduction to energy flux, but actually the term didn't come out until 2018. I was already utilizing a less refined method of this.

35:26
The concept of energy flux refers to our state of energy turnover in the body. So this is the relationship between the amount of energy we consume and how much energy we expend through all forms of physical activity, including both our intentional exercise and then our daily movement. And I found that having clients take a high flux approach, which is how I refer to it, where I have clients eat more and move more is a really effective method, both during fat loss phases to get them into an effective deficit, as well as to help with adherence and being able to sustain a diet because they're eating more. They're getting

35:55
very well fueled and things of that sort, but also it's extremely beneficial and helpful during a post-diet maintenance phase. Really the importance and why I've utilized this and found benefit to it during a fat loss phase is because maintaining high levels of physical activity essentially during a diet can help to make up for the reductions in energy expenditure that come from decreases in need during a diet. As reductions in need, a lot of people don't realize how considerable they are. So we actually see in the literature, you look in...

36:22
research by Rosenbaum and Leibel, which are prominent researchers in this field. Decreases in NEAT can account for up to 85 to 90% of the decreases in the calories we burn as a result of diet-induced metabolic adaptations. And just to be able to provide, like your audience, I know they're very science-based, like I'll give you guys a little bit of a conceptual model and some evidence behind this of just how significant of a decrease in calorie burn decreases in NEAT can contribute to.

36:46
We can look at a study by Rosenbaum. So Rosenbaum and colleagues did a study in 2008 where they looked at how much of a reduction in total daily energy expenditure dieters who had lost at least 10% of their body weight, sustained and saw a 500 calorie reduction in the amount of calories they were burning per day. So that was on the totality. And then what they did was they analyzed and broke down this metabolic adaptation into multiple components to see what aspect of total daily energy expenditure were impacted the most from weight loss.

37:13
And so they found that those that had lost 10% of their body weight saw about 100 calorie reduction in resting metabolic rate. So that's about 20%. However, when they analyzed the rest of the components that contributed to this large degree of decreased calorie expenditure, they found that these dieters, physical activity, energy expenditure, so NEAT, had decreased by around 400 calories per day. And the vast majority of research that we have on this topic does find that between 85% to 90% of those downregulations in energy expenditure...

37:41
we experience from dieting comes from decreases in need. And so, we have to realize that when you're in a fat loss phase and you're in a deficit, you're going to subconsciously downregulate your activity levels and there's going to be things that you don't even notice. You're going to sit more, you're going to slouch more, you're going to compensate more. I even noticed that I blink slower. There's a video of me. I did a presentation at Bodybuilding.com years ago, and I was a week removed from a contest prep, but I was still in prep. And so, I just finished a contest. I was weak.

38:08
after and I still had a couple more concerts to go. And I remember the VP of my company, he's not familiar with, with, you know, conscious prep or anything of that sort. And so when I was done with the presentation, he was like, is everything all right? And he was asking questions generally concerned. And I was like, yeah, Dan, everything's perfect. Like, didn't I do well? And he's like, no, you spoke well, but you were speaking so slow.

38:28
You were blinking so slow and you weren't speaking with your hands. And if anyone has ever seen me on YouTube or whatever, I'm from an Italian background, from New York. We speak with our hands. I'm extremely lively. I speak really fast. This is something from the Northeast. And so he was taken aback by that. And that's just an example of how subconsciously things can down regularly as a result of being in an energy deficit. So this is where increasing energy flux through increasing movement via knee or essentially tracking steps can be so beneficial because it can allow us to...

38:58
diet on a higher amount of calories and offset some of the decreases in energy expenditure. And also by increasing, so essentially my concept is eat more, move more. And by doing so, we can maintain better training performance, better muscle maintenance, because you're feeding yourself more, you're having more carbohydrate availability, you're going to have more peri-workout nutrition. That's something I specifically focus on. And then also we're going to improve biofeedback, which is one area that is detrimentally impacted during a deficit, especially if you try to take what I would consider a low-flux approach.

39:25
where you really try to low ball your calories, really try to restrict as much as you can, really try to slash your calories and lose weight as quickly as possible. And what we have to realize, there's a big difference between weight loss and quality weight loss, which really quality weight loss alludes to fat loss. We're trying to maintain as much muscle tissue as possible and lose as much body fat as possible. Whereas weight loss, purely focusing on the scale, that's oftentimes a combination of some fat loss, yes, but also some lean body mass loss, some glycogen loss and things of that sort.

39:54
Yeah, no. Are you familiar with Dr. Jade Titor? I'm familiar with the name. I don't know if I've seen all his stuff though. Yeah, he's like, he's amazing. He's a naturopathic doctor and his, he talks about metabolic toggles, which is really similar to what you're talking about. So we have these phases of eating and exercise, essentially where you do, there are times where you eat more and you exercise less, and that might be Christmas, for example, you do nothing and you're like, you know, chowing down, but then you've got your

40:23
eat more, exercise more, which is essentially your sort of high energy flux. He talks about how the metabolism, we often say that we, you know, people are like, oh, I wish my metabolism was faster, or I've got the slow metabolism. He's like, you don't necessarily want a fast metabolism. You want an adaptive and a responsive metabolism. His language is very similar to yours, Brandon. You've got a lot of sort of synergies with your information. Both of it. Awesome.

40:50
I definitely have to check this stuff out. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It sounds like kindred spirits to say the least. Then with regards, Brandon, to the process that people have with you, you mentioned a higher calorie intake with a higher movement within their day. Do you approach fat loss for your male clients the same as you do your female? Do you see any delineation there or is it an individual, by individual basis with you?

41:20
So off the bat, I have to say that although sex is a consideration in terms of the way I would approach fat loss, it's not like I'm going to look at a client and say, in the general population, and be like, yo, Gempop Jim over here is a man, so I'm going to put him on a male fat loss plan. And then Lifestyle Lisa over here is a female, so I'm going to put her on a female fat loss plan. So I think really when it comes down to it, coaching needs to be more nuanced and individualized and need to consider many other aspects besides just a person's sex.

41:47
If I was going to pin down a major difference in how I approach fat loss for females and how I approach fat loss for males, it would be the rate of loss and the size of the deficit that I utilize with each sex, where I'll utilize a lower rate of loss target and smaller net deficit with females than I do males. So with females, I'm generally going to target a moderate weekly rate of loss target between 0.25% and 1% body weight per week. Whereas with males, it's generally just gonna be a touch higher. So it's gonna be 0.5.

42:15
to 1% rate of loss target on a weekly basis. And I also tend to take what I refer to as a dynamic approach to the rate of fat loss target. So what I've personally found to work best for females and as well as males, but we'll speak really in the context of females, is during a fat loss phase, I'll start at the, I'll sort of diet out at the higher end of that 0.25 to 1% rate of loss target. Because let's think about where someone is physically, physiologically, and mentally at the start of a fat loss phase. Their body fat is higher, and there's more body weight and body fat to lose.

42:44
The likelihood of muscle loss is low because they've been outside of a deficit. They've been primed and are ready to diet because I put them through what I call a pre-diet primer phase to really get everything firing on all cylinders, essentially have them in a good state physically as well as mentally, and their motivation is really high. At the start of a fat loss phase, I'll err closer to that 1% rate of loss target, which allows us to get some good progress right off the bat. Then what I'll do is I'll slow things down in terms of our rate of loss on a weekly basis.

43:11
As they get leaner, they get hungrier, and it's more difficult for them to hit a higher end of that rate of loss target. I also believe that the sex specific differences in body size and total daily energy expenditure need to be considered when creating an actual calorie deficit, which is why I don't believe that we should use the same approach to creating a deficit with all clients. Just like I wouldn't use the same training volume or frequency or the same cardio duration or intensity with every single one of my clients, all of the clients that I work with, they don't have the same calorie budgets to deduct from.

43:40
when trying to create that deficit to elicit effective fat loss. So my average male client, who's an advanced trainee, usually will have a maintenance calorie intake of around 3,500. And even on the low end, they're generally around 3,000 calories. Yet, I have many females whose maintenance calories are around 2,000 calories or less. So if I were to put all my clients on the same fitness industry standard 500 calorie deficit, it may sound the same on paper. And really, when people hear that, they're like...

44:05
In a research study, they standardize things. It's everyone has the same percent deficit or the same calorie deficit. We both understand why they do that because things have to be standardized within a research study. But in the real world, there's context to be taken into consideration. That's the same on an absolute basis, but on a relative basis, there's a world of a difference between those two deficits between individuals. For my male client with a maintenance calories of 3,500, a 500 calorie deficit is a 14% deficit.

44:32
For my female client with a maintenance calorie intake of 2,000 calories, that same 500 calorie deficit automatically becomes a 25% calorie deficit. So it's much more extreme for her. And also another thing that I often take into consideration, I do like to speak to is the fact that I work with a lot of women who have a history of chronic dieting or have lost their menstrual cycle from under-fueling themselves and being in a prolonged state of low energy availability. So their maintenance intake is usually around 1,500 to 1,600 calories a day now.

45:00
So that same 500 calorie deficit, if I was to apply to them, is going to be over a 30% calorie deficit for these women, which is far more aggressive at a deficit that's gonna leave them more predisposed towards having trouble adhering to it, not having enough fuel and energy to train and also to recover, and may leave them more predisposed towards experiencing muscle loss and exacerbate metabolic adaptations, as well as potentially experiencing more menstrual cycle disruptions early on in the dieting phase, which is why I really believe...

45:27
the deficit in calorie reduction needs to be individualized and scaled to the client we're working with, especially between sexes. The biggest difference between how I diet a male and a female for fat loss is I'm going to utilize a smaller absolute deficit with my female clients so that they have a better ability to adhere and maintain that deficit. Really when it comes down to it, you could have the perfect plan and paper and you could put every one of your clients on the same deficit. But really when it comes down to it, the most important factors are consistency and adherence because that's what's going to determine.

45:56
their ability to lose fat in an effective manner. So that's really, when I look at sex specific differences, that's really what I'm focusing on most. Let's cater this rate of loss. Obviously besides the dietary components of, I'm going to make sure that this is more in line with someone's preferences and things of that sort. But when I look specifically at sex, it's like, that's where I think a lot of people are missing the mark because a lot of times I feel within fitness and especially within the sector that I'm in.

46:22
A lot of people are trying to sell a simple story because people want simple answers. They have a question and they want you to sell them, you know, this is the one way to do things. This is the best way to lose fat. And it's like, yes, there are many methods and many are effective. However, it needs to be catered and individualized to that person. And if you're telling every single person that they need to induce a 500 calorie deficit to lose one pound per week, that's not going to be applicable to everyone. Completely. And I really like how you talked about the primer period with your clients to sort of almost prepare them for a fat loss phase.

46:52
What are some of the things that you think about there, Brandon, which our listeners can sort of take away for themselves and sort of think about before they sort of embark in fat loss in the new year? Yeah. So really when it comes down to it, I think that most people jump into a diet before they're ready to. And I think that a lot of times when it comes down to it, they have the goal of fat loss, but they don't realize that they aren't in the right place physically or mentally to go right into a deficit. So what I do with most of my clients when we first start working together,

47:22
is I like to have them start off by entering what I refer to as a pre-diet primer phase to set them up for more effective fat loss following that primer phase. So during the primer phase, my goal is to set a client up for more effective fat loss in the future by using that initial time working together as a sort of like preparatory period where I aim to improve and optimize their physiology and their psychology and work on their approach to nutrition and training as well as their habits, their behaviors and lifestyle as a whole.

47:49
so that they can respond better and can lose fat more effectively once we do enter an energy deficit. And I found this to be like a really effective method as many individuals aren't in the right state both physically and mentally to start a fat loss phase and they end up rushing into it, which leads to generally like one of two situations. We have those who go into a deficit, but they can't adhere to it. And it results in them falling off the diet and just spinning their wheels. So they continue trying, they continue getting on a diet, getting off a diet, getting on a diet, getting off a diet. Or we have those rare individuals

48:18
they're able to succeed in terms of the diet phase. So what they do is they white knuckle their way through the diet, but as soon as it's over, they end up gaining all the weight that they lost back and are right back where they started. And so really what I found is this pre-diet primer phase helps me make sure a client is in the right state both physically and mentally before we enter a deficit, which increases their likelihood of succeeding both in the fat loss phase itself, and then they're better able to maintain the results after, because we've already cemented a lot of the positive habits and behaviors prior to going to the fat loss phase itself.

48:49
So then those same habits and behaviors are able to serve them once we exit the diet and get them back to eating at maintenance. And then, so I'm not gonna ever put someone right into a deficit. Nine out of 10 people that come to me, they're just, they're not ready. In one capacity, they're anchors and bottlenecks that I'm seeing within their intake form, within our consultation. But then once someone is in a better state in both terms of their training, their movement, their eating habits and behaviors, they're sleeping well, they're managing stress effectively, then I'm gonna transition them into a fat loss phase.

49:16
But one of my main focuses when getting them into a deficit is to create a calorie deficit, not a nutrient deficit. Because another component and another mistake that I find many do is they unintentionally get into a deficit and they diet far too aggressively in terms of their approach to fat loss. So that could either just put them into a bad state physiologically so they're incurring adaptations quicker, or it really leads to a lack of adherence where they're either completely off the diet in and of itself or they're slipping up.

49:43
quite frequently, which is only causing them to find, you know, essentially encounter more plateaus and more stalls within the process, which is frustrating. And it's causing undue mental burden, which they could easily have, we could have easily worked around if we had given ourselves a little bit of time on the front end of us working together, where we really dialed in their habits, their behaviors, and their lifestyle design, so that when they do go into a deficit, we make that period of fat loss the most effective period that they could have.

50:13
Yeah, no, that makes perfect sense. And Brandon, I know that you're not a big fan of those calorie counters out there for establishing sort of maintenance and the rest of it. And, you know, personally speaking, I've used them with some success, but a lot of the time, actually, we learn a lot more when my clients start tracking their calories and we sort of establish what's going on there rather than that they completely follow what is spat out of a sort of calculator. So.

50:41
How do you approach that then? Absolutely. So I always say that coaches are not calculators. There are many software that we can utilize online. I really think that we have to utilize the knowledge and education that we have to really set our clients up for success. So I do take a little bit more of an extended approach and I've refined this over the years. So for instance, I used to, you always want to, I personally always want to establish a client's maintenance calories before. Cause what I generally notice is that a lot of people, they have the intention right off the bat of working with a coach. They want to go right into a deficit.

51:11
What happens if I don't know your maintenance calorie intake? The average person that comes to me, they do not know their maintenance calorie intake. And oftentimes they've already been under fueling themselves or overeating. So they're in one end of this extreme where they're either over consuming and gaining weight or they're under fueling themselves and could just be down regulated and actually have still persistent metabolic adaptations due to the fact that they've never gotten back to energy balance. So what I like to do during that primer phase is not only find their maintenance but establish a higher maintenance because

51:37
Essentially, what I'm trying to do is get them to be able to maintain their current body composition on as many calories as possible. We have more of a budget to play with in terms of when we go into a deficit. What I like to utilize and what you're alluding to is I've done a full series of podcasts on why we shouldn't utilize calorie calculators from a coaching perspective. What I mean by that is generally we see misestimation. There are BMR calculators and then when we tack on the physical activity levels onto them, the multiplier, we generally see between a four to 700 calorie.

52:06
error margin on them. So, that's quite substantial, especially if someone has a low maintenance calorie intake. And so, we can be pretty fairly off the mark. If a calorie calculator tells you that your maintenance calorie is 2,500 calories, but they're really 3,000, or vice versa, say they say they're 3,000, but it's really 2,500, and you establish a 500-calorie deficit thinking that your maintenance is 3,000, now you're at maintenance calories, but you think you're in a deficit. So, now you're back into this mental restriction where

52:35
You think that you're dieting. And that's what a lot of people come to me. They say, you know, I've been in a deficit. I've eaten a deficit, but I haven't lost any weight. Well, then you haven't been in a deficit, especially if you did it for a prolonged period of time. If you went three, four, five weeks and you didn't lose any weight, you're still at maintenance from a Euclid perspective. And so what I like to do is I like to have a period of time where we're tracking different metrics essentially. So I like to keep things essentially clamped where they're eating the same amount every day. They're tracking it.

53:03
so I can get an average throughout the week. And we're also tracking their body weight on a daily basis to get a rolling average, or an average for the week. And also their activity levels. So say for instance, someone comes to me and they're doing 7,000 steps per day, they have a baseline diet that they're following and they're weighing in every single day. What I'll do is I'll have them send me over a week's worth. I used to do it differently. I used to have them track over two weeks initially, and I would like to get that two week average. Now I've actually scaled it back to four days or less. And the reason for that is because actually,

53:32
I had to disprove my own theory. Generally, I like two weeks. I noticed that that was a big cognitive burden for a lot of people because a lot of clients coming to me, they're not proficient trackers, and they just wanted to get started in the coaching process. Essentially, what I'm telling them is, I need you to go two more weeks and then we'll start working together. It really became a barrier of entry, essentially. I did look into some literature on this and we find that food records start to become highly inaccurate over three to four days. Yeah. What I was doing, I had really curtailed two weeks down to one week.

54:02
And when I saw that literature, I said, all right, I got to pull this back. So what I like to do is I like to get a training day diet, an off day diet, and one of their weekdays or weekends rather. And so I'll take that, I'll utilize the average and also I want them tracking their body weight as well as their activity levels. I'm going to get an average of that and then I'm going to set a baseline diet at that average intake of what should maintain their state of energy balance. And then over the first one to two weeks of a primer phase, I'm seeing their deviations in body weight as well as their activity levels. And I'm trying to keep everything clamped.

54:31
to be able to establish a maintenance calorie intake. And what I'll actually like to do during a primer phase is to walk their calories up essentially, to get them to the highest level in which they can maintain a good level of body composition and are able to sufficiently fuel themselves. So a lot of people are coming to me, they're pretty much eating like nutrient-avoid diets. So I'm trying to replete micronutrients. I'm trying to get them more of a whole food matrix, really create a nutrient-dense diet of 90% of whole foods. And...

54:56
going to improve upon many other aspects. So I'm improving their satiety, their biofeedback, their sleep, all these other things that could be decreasing and diminishing their calorie expenditure. And so within that, I'm able to build up their calorie intake and keep them at maintenance still, but it's a higher, it's essentially a buffer that we've made for them where they're able to maintain their weight on a higher amount of calories than they previously thought. And that gives us more, like essentially more tools to play with once we do go into a deficit. Yeah, no, that's really great. And then...

55:24
Brandon, when you're working with clients, I mean, a lot of people reach this point where they have a bit of a plateau, and it's a true plateau. It's not just this psychological, I'm not losing weight and then they haven't clocked that they're actually eating more and all the bites and the licks and the things that they're eating are actually contributing to increased calories. How do you work through with your clients a weight loss stall? What are some of the common reasons and how would you tackle it?

55:54
Absolutely. When it comes to weight loss, there are many components that could cause this, essentially. As you alluded to, a lot of times it is calorie inaccuracies in terms of tracking inaccuracies. We're forgetting about the bites, the licks, the tastes, the sips, all these different things that are adding up in terms of calorie intake, which a lot of people just overlook. That could be snacking behaviors. That could be anything outside of a meal or even just, obviously, memory recall isn't great, but a lot of people wait till the end of the day to track instead of tracking meal by meal or tracking in advance.

56:24
And so these are little errors that we could really improve upon. So I really find that really focusing on educating clients on tracking. I've done many podcasts on this, but I have a full tracking guide that I give clients to really walk them through the process, make sure that we're improving precision because you can never be 100% accurate. There's the FDA guidelines, at least in the States, which allow for a 20% margin of error on prepackaged food items. However, we can be precise and we can be consistent. If you're doing that on a day-to-day basis, I can make adjustments to that diet based off of what you're doing day in and day out.

56:53
that are going to lead to greater weight loss. So really when it comes to a stall, we have to realize that weight loss is never linear. So it's not going to continually go down. So we have to educate clients on that, give them or help them have realistic expectations and realize that there are gonna be a stalls along the process. However, if I see that a client is stalled for more than two to three weeks, meaning their weight has not budged like even a quarter pound or whatever it may be, that's where we're gonna look into underlying factors. So

57:22
A lot of times I will do an energy audit, which is essentially where I have them track on a daily basis, even take pictures of their meals if it's someone that I really need to. I notice that they have just habits which could lead them to overeating and just mindlessly eating. And so I'm trying to track them or trying to audit them on that. But there's other reasons there could be sleep issues. There could be stress issues. I think the number one that I would say is honestly stress. But a lot of times we're seeing increases in stress, which are causing them to not see

57:51
the fat loss that we would expect based off the energy deficit they're having. So this is where we would lead into the Whoosh effect, essentially. And this is something that many have experienced but might not be familiar with. So essentially, when we refer to the Whoosh effect, this is basically a situation in a fat loss phase and in a calorie deficit where you're in a deficit, you're truly in a deficit, you are dieting hard and you're consistent with your plan, your adherent, but you're not seeing a decrease in your scale weight for a period of time which can last anywhere between a few days to up to a couple of weeks.

58:20
So now it looks like you're completely stalled out. And although it can make this seem as though you're stalled out, what the actual whoosh effect refers to is this phenomenon where after several days or weeks of seeing a stall in your scale weight, you wake up and you see a large drop or a whoosh down in your scale weight that you hadn't seen in the days prior. And this stalling in scale weight is usually caused by high levels of unmanaged stress, which can lead to an increase in cortisol. And when cortisol gets chronically elevated, it binds to specific receptors, which are made for water-retensive hormones,

58:50
like aldosterone, which is why stress essentially increases water retention, which will increase your scale weight and it can make it appear on the scale like you've made no progress throughout a whole week of being consistent on your diet. However, what I often see is that when I'm able to help, and this is where it comes down to like coaching needs to go beyond the X's and O's. It can't just be nutrition and in training. We have to talk lifestyle factors. We have to talk stress management. We have to talk sleep optimization, all these other things, because what I've noticed, and this is kind of how I came to...

59:18
really looking into this concept and really realizing that this is often a cause of plateaus within fat loss. Besides metabolic adaptation, if we went into there, obviously there are down regulations in energy expenditure that could cause a plateau in weight loss. But generally, if someone is in an effective deficit, we're not going to see such a drastic decrease in energy expenditure from one week to another where their steps are stayed extremely consistent, where their training is going the exact same way they're still progressing with their training, where it's going to drop off by several hundred calories.

59:48
What a lot of people don't realize is that stress can cause increases in water retention that cause a sale to increase a couple pounds. You could have lost a pound or two within the last two weeks. However, the increase in water retention from stress is actually hiding and masking your ability to see that fat loss. What I've found very interesting is over the years, there's been many times where I've suspected this and I haven't said anything to a client. I'm talking to them about stress.

01:00:11
I'm really trying to get across the importance of this. And what I'll do is I'll have them integrate some stress management techniques, maybe have a spa night, maybe do some meditation. Or a lot of times what I'll actually do is because realize that as coaches, we can only control certain aspects of our clients lives and we can only help them in certain aspects. So for instance, if a client has a really hectic job or has children at home, there are stressors that we're never gonna be able to eliminate for them. However, we can help manage.

01:00:37
the other aspects. So that could be putting them into a D-load to lower, you know, essentially their allostatic load. Or another thing that I found very effective is to integrate a refeed day or a diet break to try to decrease diet fatigue and stress levels. And what I end up noticing is they'll end up dropping a few pounds on the scale almost right after. So it's like they have a refeed and they're emailing or texting me like the next couple days like, hey, my weight finally dropped. Maybe let's just do that dissipation of fatigue because if I do a carbohydrate refeed or a high carb day.

01:01:04
we're going to see that insulin comes up and it's going to decrease cortisol secretion. And so a lot of times they're eating more calories or they're going back to maintenance at least, which they in their mind, sometimes they think is gonna stall them even more. But I'm like, listen, just increase these carbohydrates. We're trying to restore not only your ability to continue dieting and stay adherent, but I want you to have better training sessions, better pumps in the gym, all these other factors, but also they get the alleviation of stress and it also causes that lack of or that dissipation of water retention. And

01:01:34
Although a lot of people can find this very frustrating, I think that we have to always bring it back to the fact that weight loss and fat loss are never linear. So, we can't expect to see our weight go down from one day to another due to how many factors impact our scale weight fluctuations. So, if you're in an effective deficit and you know you're being consistent and there's no other reasons for it. So, it's not like you're slipping off your diet, you're forgetting to track. If you're very diligent, I work with clients that are very high level executives, they're very...

01:02:01
Driven individuals a lot of them are nailing it and sometimes it really is the stress that is the bottleneck holding them back from seeing The results that they're looking for and that you know a lot of times sometimes I won't tell them listen we're gonna alleviate stress and you're gonna lose weight because I don't want to make that guarantee however When they realize that stress they had a refeed or I told them to utilize some stress management techniques and they utilize Meditation or yoga or they went for a spa night or they had a movie night with their kids something you just you know Mindless activity just take their mind off the stress of work or deadline or whatever it may be

01:02:30
And then the next day they wake up later, then they realize the physiological ramifications of stress and of unmanaged stress. And so then they're more dialed in. It's almost like an awareness tool. Like, listen, you saw that this could happen. And in order to prevent that going forward, let's proactively integrate some stress management techniques. So that could be every day on your lunch break, let's go for a walk in nature to get that greenhouse effect. Let's utilize some, you know, sometimes I'll ask clients.

01:02:55
What were things that you really enjoyed before you had adult responsibilities? What were activities that you loved? So I recently, I had this conversation with a client of mine last week and she really loved painting and she loved drawing and coloring as a kid. So I said, listen, go get a coloring book, like, you know, or you could paint. Like there's so many things that we can integrate, like creative activities. Or a lot of times it's like, you know, I'll have a client that is extremely busy, but he has like a pet. And I'm like, listen, go to the park with your pet. Like, you know, just the things that are gonna lower court is also creation. There's so many.

01:03:23
activities that we can integrate into our lives. Besides, obviously, if there's supplements we can utilize. We can utilize adaptogens and things of that sort. Ashwagandha, we can utilize phosphatidylserine, which are going to lower cortisol secretions. But a lot of times just those integration of daily habits are really, really effective. And they go much further than a lot of people imagine until they see the results that they're getting from doing so. Yeah. And look, I absolutely agree with that. And stress management is such an important

01:03:53
often dismissed by a lot of people. And I feel like it's out of frustration or the sense of urgency that, you know, that they might have in their head about their fat loss. And they're like, well, how can stress management possibly help? Yet until they experience it, then they get to understand better, you know, just how it works. 100%. And not only from a cosmetic perspective, I don't think that people realize the true impact that stress has physiologically.

01:04:20
on all systems. So on our metabolism, on our hormone levels. So for instance, if we actually look at research on stress's impact on metabolism, stress is a good thing. You know what I mean? We have eustress and we have distress. If stress becomes chronic, then it becomes a negative stressor essentially. So for instance, there's research from Ohio State University that found that subjects that reported one or more stressors, significant stressors in their life in the prior 24 hours.

01:04:46
actually decreased their energy expenditure by over 104 calories than those who had lower stresses. And then when they looked at other metabolic markers, they found that there was a relationship and association between higher levels of stress and then postprandial energy expenditure and also lower rates of fat oxidation and higher insulin levels, which demonstrates how high levels of stress can lower our calorie expenditure and our metabolic flexibility, which is essentially our ability to switch between fuel structure traits. So between utilizing carbs and utilizing fat for fuel.

01:05:15
Another thing that a lot of people forget to think about is the fact that stress does, everyone always talks about the stress cortisol connection, which, you know, that's very true. However, a lot of people forget the impact that cortisol can actually have on our hormones that regulate our metabolism. So for instance, thyroid production, you know, if you have high cortisol levels, excessively high cortisol levels, what it's gonna do is it's gonna interrupt that conversion of T4, which is inactive, to metabolically active T3, which is the active form of thyroid, which helps to run our metabolic rate and energy expenditure.

01:05:45
And we also see that high levels of stress can increase the production of reverse T3, which is an inactive form of T3, which doesn't confirm the same metabolic benefits as T3, but it can work as like an antagonist. So we can bind to the same receptors as T3 and essentially render a lot of our T3 useless. And this is something, you know, I do a lot of times lab work with clients and those who are highly stressed, I'll generally see they have lower T3, a lower end of the range and higher reverse T3. Sometimes it'll look like...

01:06:12
almost have subclinical hypothyroidism and things of that sort. People really understand the key role that stress can play or that sleep can play. There's so many factors that are outside of just the programming aspects of just your diet and your training that a lot of people overlook. But if we can take a more all-encompassing viewpoint to all these factors and really make this a lifestyle approach where, yes, we dial in our nutrition. Yes, we dial in our training. We go hard in training. We go hard.

01:06:40
you know, in terms of being really consistent in the kitchen. However, there's a lot of things outside of the gym and the kitchen that play a vital role in our ability to either make progress or to hit plateaus. Yeah, amazing Brandon. And I feel like this has been such a whirlwind tour of your knowledge and we've tapped into maybe about 0.05% of it. You are such a wealth of information. I appreciate it. Where can people find you and potentially hook up with you as a

01:07:09
some more of this information. You guys have a fabulous podcast. Can you just share with our listeners what it is? Absolutely. So you guys can feel free to reach out to me. The best place to reach me is on my email, which is bdecruzfitness at gmail.com. For any content, I post every single day. I try to really share a lot of educational posts. So that would be on Instagram at BrandonDeCruz underscore. And then I also, as Mickey alluded to, I do have a podcast. And if you're listening to her podcast, I would hope that you would like mine as well. So it is called The Chasing

01:07:38
health and fitness podcast. And the reason for that name is we're really trying to, my goal is to bridge the gap between research and information and practical application because I am not a researcher, but I am someone that believes in evidence-based practice. And really what I'm trying to do is bridge that gap between the ivory tower and then the bros in the gym and really trying to bring forth evidence-based practice, which a lot of people don't realize is a three component model. So it is not only what the best body, the best available

01:08:04
evidence that we have from the body of literature, but it also is the experiences and the expertise of the clinician or in our case, the coach. And then also it is the client's preferences, their abilities, their limitations and really molding that into this trifecta essentially. And so really on my podcast, I try to present you guys with my experience having coached at this point 11 years, and then also what the evidence says to reinforce that or to be able to give you guys more.

01:08:28
of a reinforcing factor as to why certain things work. And also really the name Chasing Clarity is to shine light on trying to really dispel confusion, misinformation and disinformation and provide you guys with clarity on complex topics essentially. Yeah, and you do a fabulous job, Brandon. And as a coach, I learn and reinforce my information so much. And I know that people who are just interested in fat loss and who are just fully general,

01:08:57
for themselves will equally get so much from that. So thank you so much for your time this morning. I really appreciate it. Absolutely, Mickey, thank you so much for having me. I wanna say before I get off, I'm a huge fan of all your work. So it is an absolute honor to be on with you. And I look forward to doing this again in the future. Amazing, thanks so much, Brandon.

01:09:27
Alrighty, hopefully you gleaned some awesome information just from the discussion that I had, and that is honestly, it's not even a tip of the iceberg when it comes to Brandon. So absolutely check him out on social and check out his podcast. Your mind will be blown. And next week on the podcast team, I bring to you the conversation I have with Dr. Eric Williamson about the power of protein for the endurance athlete.

01:09:55
Until then though, you can catch me over on Facebook @mikkiwillidenNutrition, Instagram, threads and Twitter @mikkiwilliden, head to my website mikkiwilliden.com and sign up to my webinar series because that kicks off very soon. Alright team, you have the best week. See you later.