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00:03
Welcome, hi, I'm Mikki and this is Mikkipedia, where I sit down and chat to doctors, professors, athletes, practitioners, and experts in their fields related to health, nutrition, fitness, and wellbeing, and I'm delighted that you're here.

00:26
Hey everyone, it's Miki here. You're listening to Mikkipedia, and this week on the podcast, I speak to Eric Williamson, PhD, about protein metabolism and the endurance athlete. Eric conducted his master's and his PhD research looking at physiology, protein, endurance sport, and determining what level of protein is ideal versus what the recommendations are. So,

00:55
You know, I'm a huge fan of protein. And when I came across Eric's studies, I was super stoked to see the types of recommendations and his findings with regards to how I might recommend someone eat protein. And he ended up being a friend of a friend of mine. So she hooked us up, which was really awesome. Eric and I discuss the genesis behind his research, like what got him interested in the field.

01:22
what some of the differences they've found between both male and female athletes, because he's done studies in both of these areas, and how his findings compare to current recommendations, and also how it translates into real world dietary advice for athletes, particularly endurance athletes. What I was super excited for here is that a lot of the research looking at athletes

01:52
While it's super important, I guess the emergence of just how important protein is for the endurance athlete has occurred over the last few years as well. And Eric really has been at the forefront of that research. So it was great to be able to sit down and chat to him about it. So Eric has been a practicing registered dietician since 2015. He's got his bachelor.

02:18
in Kinesiology from Western University and also a BSc in Nutrition and Dietetics. He's done his MSc in Exercise Nutrition and Metabolism at the University of Toronto, where he then went on to do a PhD in that Exercise Nutrition and Metabolism space. He is a registered dietitian, he's a Certified Specialist in Sports Dietetics, and he's a Certified Strength and Condition Specialist.

02:44
And Eric and I also discussed really briefly his research looking at intermittent fasting too, which I think you're going to find super interesting. So of late, Eric is the co-founder of his company, Unlocked Fitness and Nutrition. And I've got a link to that in the show notes. But as of July last year, he has been the director of nutrition at Canyon Ranch, so which is a health resort.

03:10
in the United States and that's where he's spending the majority of his professional time. And I'll put links to both his research papers and where you can find him in the show notes today. Before we crack on into the interview, I'd just like to remind you the best way to support this podcast is to hit the subscribe button on your favourite podcast listening platform. You could even leave a five star review. That way more people get the opportunity to hear from the guests that I have on the show like Eric.

03:39
it increases the visibility of the podcast out there and amongst the literally thousands of other podcasts. So do me a solid, hit subscribe, leave us a five-star review. You're amazing and please enjoy the conversation that I have with Eric Williamson.

03:59
Eric, really great to chat to you today about all things endurance athletes, protein metabolism, bit of sex differences, some of my favorite topics, given that probably like you, a lot of my clientele are endurance based athletes and they're always looking to optimize diet for performance, et cetera. And I'm particularly

04:27
keen to talk to you because of course this is your research. So you're a clinician and a research and I think that makes such a nice mix. Thank you, Mickey. I really appreciate you having me on the show. So can we just start a little bit with your background to give people a sense of what you've done and why we're having this chat? Sure. I will take you back to my undergraduate degrees where I did

04:54
an undergrad in nutrition and dietetics at the same time as doing an undergrad in kinesiology. I knew I was interested in the area of exercise nutrition and particularly fitness nutrition because that is an area that I was struggling with at the time, my own fitness, trying to enhance my own strength and endurance and change my body composition. So I developed a strong passion and drive for it. I knew I wanted to work in the area of exercise nutrition.

05:24
And while I was in my undergrad, I was volunteering in exercise nutrition lab. I was working with a nutrition coach, which is what I'm doing now as well, doing nutrition coaching. After my undergrad, I went and did my dietetic internship, working in all areas of dietetics, clinical rotations, and of course my favorite actually being sports nutrition. After that,

05:52
I started my own business where I provided nutrition coaching, particularly for those who are recreational exercisers looking to enhance their own fitness or change their body composition. And during that time, I did my master's degree in the area of exercise nutrition in the exercise science department at the University of Toronto. And then I went on and did my PhD in the same lab in that same field.

06:22
and our research stemmed primarily around protein metabolism. That was the primary objectives of a lot of our research. I ended up particularly focusing in the area of endurance exercise, which was and still is a fairly untapped area. There's still lots more to learn as I'm sure we'll discuss, but it was absolutely fascinating. I'm very happy with

06:51
the experience that I gained in my graduate studies. After that, which wasn't really that long ago, graduating in June of 2022, I then continued with my small business. I continued doing some research in the lab that I did my PhD, and I was teaching online for the University of British Columbia in the nutrition department, particularly the course sports nutrition. And then a company called Canyon Ranch found me.

07:20
their health and wellness resort around the United States. And I have since then moved to Tucson, Arizona. And I'm currently in one of the other locations, one of the other Canyon Ranch locations in Massachusetts. So it takes me around a little bit of traveling and I'm their director of nutrition. So that's my main role now. And I'm also still

07:49
I still own the business Unlocked Fitness and Nutrition where the team is doing a fantastic job continuing on with the fitness nutrition coaching that we offer. Yeah, sounds so awesome, Eric. And it seems like you've achieved quite a lot in your small amount of time really that you've been in this area investigating, researching, obviously publishing, which is how I came across your papers. And now like a director of like a health and wellness.

08:19
I think that actually sounds quite removed really from your research, but not nutrition coaching because it's all nutrition coaching obviously. Well, I'll just speak to that quickly. It's different of course from research. I will say that the population that we found ourselves working with in Unlocked being primarily recreational exercisers who are trying to be proactive about their health.

08:43
and oftentimes juggling busy work and family lives. That's along the same lines of what I, of the clientele I'm working with here at the Health and Wellness Resort. So there is a lot of crossover there. And a PhD in our graduate studies in general, yes, you get to dive deep into that particular topic that you might focus your research, like protein metabolism.

09:11
following endurance exercise in this case. But really what graduate school does is it makes you really excellent at learning and understanding research and understanding how to find answers in our field. And that is what I'm really so grateful for is those soft skills that I gained in my graduate studies. Oh, totally. And you know what, I find it super interesting as well that when you sort of move from that research space into that...

09:40
practical space, which you did concurrently as well with your nutrition unlocked and things like that. But you very quickly sort of get the idea that what necessarily we see in the research laboratory is not always translated out into the real world. That is the case. And what I often say to people too is that research publishes averages. Yes. So it's so valuable to be able to see behind the scenes.

10:09
to see the individual data points and how people respond individually. And we develop these recommendations based on averages and statistics. And we do what we can to make sure that we're covering all of the population or most of the population rather with the recommendations that we provide. But it really gives you that insight into how individual we really are.

10:37
how we can go about coaching or providing consulting to really make each person their own kind of research experiment and figuring out how they are unique and how they might not be average in certain ways, which another valuable piece of knowledge that you gain from seeing behind the scenes in research. Yeah, no, completely, Eric. So on that, on the recommendations and on your research.

11:04
Can we dive into protein requirements for endurance athletes? Let's do it. So can you briefly describe what your research was looking at? But yeah, let's start there. So what did your research specifically look at in the space of endurance sport and protein requirements? Well, we did a lot of research in the area of protein metabolism. I was involved in plenty of different

11:34
studies that happened in the lab. My research for my master's and my PhD, you're correct, focused on endurance exercise and those who were endurance training that we can call endurance athletes regularly training and competing, almost all of them competing as well, oftentimes just in a recreational manner, but very applicable to the broad endurance training population.

12:04
in multiple ways and then not so much in other ways that I'm sure we can dive into. But in my master's degree, I built off of some prior research that had been done in the lab by a visiting researcher, a colleague of mine. His name is Hiro Kato. He was visiting from Japan and he did a study using the indicator amino acid oxidation technique, which is a whole body protein metabolism technique that indicates whole body protein requirements.

12:34
And he found that in endurance trained males, their protein requirements following a 20-kilometer run were about 1.8 grams per kilogram, or more specifically 1.83 grams per kilogram. And we felt very confident in the indicator amino acid oxidation technique, as it is an indication of not only what

13:00
is the minimal amount required that we may argue is nitrogen balance being the minimum amount required to equal to, to, um, make nitrogen in equal to nitrogen out so that there's no loss in mass or body protein. However, with the indicator amino acid oxidation technique, it's an indication of maximizing muscle or whole body.

13:28
rather whole body protein synthesis and turnover for essentially maximizing recovery and adaptations to exercise. So it's perhaps a more point of optimal protein intake that we are determining here. So in my master's degree, we built off of that and we looked at, well, does this intake, this recommendation outperform

13:57
current nitrogen balance derived protein recommendations for those who are endurance training on performance metrics. So can I ask you Eric, so with the nitrogen balance method, what, how does that differ from the IAAO? So just for the sort of listeners to sort of understand just how like the comparison between the two.

14:26
So nitrogen balance is really the first technique that we had in protein metabolism to determine protein requirements. And it served its purpose. It was excellent for the time that we had. That was the only method that we had available. And it was a very tedious method where you measure all of the nitrogen that someone is consuming through.

14:56
dietary sources, particularly protein. And then you have to go through the arduous task of determining all of the nitrogen excreted. And that is quite difficult. That is everything from hair, skin, nails, sweat, and large part urine, and even feces. So pretty labor intensive.

15:20
And kudos to those researchers that did those nitrogen balance studies, especially the ones that measured everything because then later on they figured out, okay, well, here's about how much everyone seems to lose from skin, hair, nails on average based on their body size. So we could then use that just in our equations and not measure that as much and really focus on a lot of the

15:51
that was looking at grams in, grams out, and then determining, well, what's the nitrogen balance in milligrams? Yes, interesting. As you can imagine, there's lots of room for error, especially when you're measuring in. And it's often, there's been a lot of research to suggest that it's often overestimated, the amount of nitrogen that is taken in.

16:20
and the amount of nitrogen is coming out is often underestimated, leading to a nitrogen balance that could potentially be too low. And is this one of the... because obviously one of the main critiques of the current recommendations, not necessarily athletic-based, but just general population-based, is that 0.8 grams per kg body weight per day.

16:49
that is still based on those nitrogen balance studies is far too low. So is what you're describing part of the sort of issue with that kind of critique as well, one of the reasons why people sort of suggest that? Yeah, that's one of the main criticisms of nitrogen balance and the recommendation of 0.8 grams per kilogram. Another one is that our body adapts, we can adapt.

17:17
to low protein intakes and it's our body's basically defense against losing critical protein mass to prevent us from wasting away. Yeah. So if we're consuming a low protein intake, what happens is our body doesn't turn over proteins as much. So the rate of protein turnover is reduced. So we're not replacing protein in our organs.

17:46
like skeletal muscle with protein that we're consuming. And it's the whole turnover between synthesis and breakdown is slower. And that is suggested to be certainly suboptimal because turnover is an important piece of cleaning up damaged and dysfunctional proteins. And if we're exercising, very important for recovery and that adaptation component.

18:15
The thing about nitrogen balance is that for those who are active, we don't want just balance. We actually want to be in a positive balance where we're not just replacing those proteins. That's very important, but that we're layering proteins on top, building mitochondria, building blood vessels, and building myofibrillary proteins, the proteins that are associated with muscle size. Even endurance athletes, if they're just starting, often will build some muscle size in some cases.

18:44
Plus we need to repair those from the damage they experienced during endurance exercise. Okay, and so your colleagues' research sort of unveiled that 1.83 grams per kilogram body weight was a sort of optimal for recovery. And your research wanted to test that against 1.2, which was the lower bound of the sports nutrition sort of recommendations. Is that correct? That is correct. Yeah, we tested it against 1.2.

19:12
which is what we call the RDA, the recommended dietary allowance. So this was the estimated average requirement determined from nitrogen balance studies plus two standard deviations to cover 95% of the population or 95% of the population. And then we also tested it against what the EAR was, the estimated average requirement. So 0.94.

19:40
grams per kilogram as well. And we did a battery of performance tests after an intensified training period over four days. We tested their performance before and after to see if the IAO derived protein intake, the higher protein intake would outperform the nitrogen balance RDA and EAR. And that is exactly what we found is that those who were

20:09
on the higher protein intake, the 1.83 grams per kilogram determined by the IAO method, they maintained their performance and actually had very slight improvements in performance over that intensified from pre to post of that intensified period compared to the lower protein intakes, the nitrogen balance derived protein intakes where we saw a reduction in performance from pre to post. And was that surprising to you at all?

20:39
Now that was right in line with our hypothesis because that is the notion of the IAO technique is that we are maximizing recovery and adaptations to the exercise. So it panned out pretty nicely for our research. Yeah. Does it tell us anything about individual amino acid requirements, Eric, or just generally just protein intake? When we're looking at individual

21:07
protein requirements, it's really hard to determine that within an individual. And that 1.83 grams per kilogram, that is what we call that, we call that a safe intake. So we look at what's the average, what's the average protein requirement that we saw in our population in these IAO methods. And in hero's study, that was 1.6 grams per kilogram.

21:31
So on average, people only need 1.6 grams per kilogram. Some people need below that. Some people need slightly above that. However, we add, again, we look at the upper 95% confidence interval in this case to cover 95% of the population. So 1.83 grams per kilogram is that safe intake for the vast majority of people to consume.

22:00
where we know that they are going to be within that range or that we're going to be covering their needs because they might be slightly below that or more below that, but we know that that's not a concern that they're consuming that much. Certainly not if they're fearing with carbohydrate or fat needs. So, we recommend consuming that 1.8 grams per kilogram.

22:28
because it is highly, highly likely to cover your needs. And Eric, the participants in your study, like when you mentioned that they underwent a protocol for endurance training from memory, it was like 20 kilogram runs, like it was quite, like it was a 20 kilogram and then they might've had an easy day, or sorry, 20 kilometers, then an easy day. Yes, 20 kilometers the first day, five kilometers the second day.

22:57
10 kilometers a third day, 20 kilometers a fourth day. So quite an intense period of exercise, that is correct. Yeah, yeah. So it certainly sort of put that to the test. And how, if you think about what your research has found, how does that compare to what you see out there as a clinician working with potentially athletes who have these requirements? Like, do people you see meet these requirements or are they?

23:27
coming in low? Well, I can talk about my population. I'd be happy to, but I can also talk about the research that has been done looking at the average intake within the endurance training population. Yeah, perfect. Let's start there. We're going to start there, and then I'll come back to what we may see in our practice and how that relates. So first of all, if you look across different studies that have taken...

23:56
recorded food logs and assessed the dietary intake of different individuals through our endurance training and in our endurance trained, we do actually see that they are, they're meeting around about 1.5 grams per kilogram, 1.5 to 1.6 grams per kilogram. So that's well above that 1.2 grams per kilogram. If you account for underreporting,

24:26
to be honest, then they're much closer to that 1.8 grams per kilogram. At the very low end of underreporting, they're very close to 1.8 grams per kilogram. And when we express the grams per kilogram protein intake recommendation as a percentage of energy needs, which is appropriate for some endurance athletes, and I'd love to go down that rabbit hole with you, if you'd like to open up that can of.

24:55
those for expressing it as percentage of energy intake, the recommendation is 15%. And that's right in line with what athletes are consuming, endurance athletes, endurance exercises, they're consuming on average. Now, that being said, I said on average, right? So there are plenty of individuals who are under that, that we need to bring up. So basically average, we could

25:25
that intake. And I will say that those individuals are the ones that are most likely to end up coming to you and I. Yes. As we find in a lot of different areas that they are maybe perhaps struggling to enhance their performance. They're not noticing they're recovering as well. So they're the ones that are going to be more likely to end up in our office. And

25:55
practice, I do find that those that people are under consuming. I will say that that is not as big of an issue as the distribution of protein across the day. Certainly. Having an equal distribution of that intake across four to five meals being the optimal distribution for maximizing protein synthesis.

26:24
across a 24 hour period. So there are those individuals who are not meeting the intake, on average people are meeting it, but the biggest opportunity for the vast majority of people is in that distribution. So, and I do love a rabbit hole actually. So what you said about percentages of relative intake is interesting because we hear a lot and.

26:50
that using percentages for endurance athletes isn't necessarily appropriate given the number of calories they eat. So let's dive a little bit into just some of your insights, Eric. Yeah. Well, the difficult thing about endurance exercise specifically, which makes it such a fascinating area in protein metabolism, is that...

27:16
there's numerous factors that are influencing this increased protein requirement. We have muscle damage and other tissue damage like gut damage that's occurring during the exercise that requires repair. We have an increase in muscle protein breakdown following exercise. We need to turn that off. We have the adaptation component.

27:46
where we want to make sure that we're providing amino acids for our body to be able to adapt, to create those proteins that allow us to come back strong faster and lasting longer. But the largest component making up that increased protein requirement following endurance exercise is actually the amino acid oxidation. The amount of protein we use for fuel

28:15
during exercise. That's interesting because I've seen research and you often hear it, people talk about it that, you know, if you do prolonged exercise, about 5% of the energy requirements is or will be coming from protein because glucose isn't sufficient or glycogen use isn't sufficient or something like that. So is that what you're referring to or is it even greater than that? No, it's about 5% on average.

28:45
those who have full muscle glycogen, that is more, it's more towards about 2% of energy that is coming from protein. And when we are glycogen depleted, it is around 10% of energy coming from protein. Wow. That's significant. And let's face it, most endurance athletes have the training

29:15
Well, not never, but seldom are they going into training with full glycogen stores. Right, and it's something that we need to consider as far as what is their carbohydrate availability that influence their protein requirements? What's the intensity of their exercise and what's the duration of their exercise? Because if it's a shorter bout and they have long, they have...

29:43
more carbohydrate availability, then the amount of protein that they're going to oxidize will be lower. And on the other hand, if they are active for a longer period of time performing intense activity, and perhaps they're executing on a low carbohydrate approach, they're utilizing training low, or they're just not consuming carbohydrates during their training session.

30:12
and they are exercising for at least two hours. Well, in that case, they are going to use more protein for as a fuel source. And that's why I recommend for the individualized approach where if someone is performing these much longer bouts of exercise, which is honestly very common about with certain types of exercise.

30:40
exercise like cycling, they can have much higher volumes than runners. So they will be out for hours. And that will require a greater protein intake. And that's where that 15% comes in, because it scales well with energy requirements. And you said that, well, there's issues with determining energy requirements. And that's correct. And when I say energy requirements, I do mean in this case, I would go by predicted

31:09
energy requirements for those. Yeah, and that makes perfect sense, right? Because you can have a fixed number, let's say 1.8 per kg body weight per day. But if you're expending 1200 calories out on your bike, then you're right, that's gonna massively increase the number of calories, well, that you're expending and therefore that you need to replace. And as you've just pointed out, a lot of that could be coming from amino acids.

31:38
Yeah, and one of the examples that I've used in presentations is looking at the dietary intake of competitors in the Tour de France. They're consuming 5,600 calories per day on average, and 15% of that is coming from protein. That's 3.2 grams per kilogram. That's a significant amount. Yeah. That's a significant amount. And

32:04
we should not be telling them that they should be cutting that in half, basically down to point eight. The 15% is a far better metric from the data we have right now and a far better guideline to use for those who are training for that longer period of time. So as a kind of general rule of thumb, I often say,

32:25
1.8 or 15% and go with whichever one is actually higher. Yeah, nice. No, that's such a good explanation, Eric, and that makes perfect sense in the context that we're talking about it. Does it make a difference, and I don't know that you actually studied this, but I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the sort of the protein quality and where it comes from. Like will this change depending on whether someone is exclusively plant-based or whether they're omnivore or...

32:53
Are you of the opinion that as long as those total protein needs are covered, then it doesn't necessarily make too much difference? For plant-based proteins, then we just need to be mindful of pairing them appropriately, particularly within meals.

33:19
plant-based proteins like beans lentils often lacking in methionine. Those are the two most common amino acids that are lacking in plant-based proteins, so we need to complement them. I'm sure this isn't the listeners you have, I'm sure this isn't the first time they're hearing something. Now, I just want to make clear that they're lacking, they're not absent. So we could have a...

33:44
very high intake of those plant proteins to make up for it, or we can just compliment them. And as long as we're doing so, as long as somebody who may be on a plant-based diet is aware of complementing the proteins that I am saying within the meal, so that we're having all amino acids available when muscle protein synthesis is turned on, then we can obtain the same outcome.

34:13
with a similar intake as those who are on an omnivorous diet and consuming animal proteins for most of their meals. Yeah, nice. And I know that people have varying opinions, but of late, I've been hearing research come out that sort of shows that to be the case as well, that total protein is overall, you're actually going to be fine. Now, Eric, you also studied this in females as well.

34:42
Did you expect, so before we sort of move on into that study and describe what you found, when you went in, did you expect there to be differences? We did. That was the impetus for the study, is that if you look at prior research, there have been plenty of studies that have compared male athletes with female athletes, and we see that female athletes have lower amino acid oxidation rates.

35:10
So if there's one population that we're going to see a difference in protein requirements, or one type of training or stimulus that we're going to see difference in protein requirements, it's going to be endurance training. Because if you look at some of these studies, I mean, it's as much as 50% of the amino acid oxidation that females experience compared to males. So they're about half.

35:40
Yeah. So they're just not using as much protein for fuel. However, those studies looked at the follicular phase of the menstrual cycle, understanding that that is the phase in which females are most different from males, where that's where you're going to find the largest sexual dimorphism. In the luteal phase with the... It's actually in the follicular phase.

36:10
when it comes to protein metabolism in particular, and also for fat metabolism as well. So in the follicular phase, fat oxidation rates are higher. That also appears to be protein sparing. So amino acid oxidation rates are lower. When we did our study, we anticipated that there would be differences between the male athletes and the female athletes. However,

36:40
We were also open to the fact that they could be more similar because we did choose to study the luteal phase knowing that amino acid oxidation rates were higher in the luteal phase because we wanted to, I mean, this is just me in general with all the research that I did. I like to be practical. I want my research to have impact where people can apply the findings. Yes, totally. I can study stuff. Nothing.

37:08
We want to find a protein intake that's suitable for the entire menstrual cycle and that would cover the needs over the entire menstrual cycle. So we chose to study the luteal phase knowing that they would be higher than the follicular phase. It's interesting you say that females are more similar to males in the follicular phase because often when we're referring, you often hear people say, oh, it's your follicular phase where your hormones are lower and therefore they're more similar to males.

37:37
that is obviously not referring to what you're actually looking at, which is protein metabolism, which is a different subject. Because what you hear is, in the follicular phase, hormones are low, and then they're rising to ovulation, and then they're higher in the luteal phase. And so people often say, well, in that follicular phase, women are more similar to men, because hormones are low. But in fact, with protein metabolism, it's

38:05
the other, that's not the case. Protein metabolism is different males versus females when we're in the follicular phase. Protein metabolism is more similar to men when they're in the pleteal phase. More similar to the follicular phase, yes. Okay. Great. Yeah. And it's due to the estrogen to progesterone ratio, really. And the estrogen to progesterone ratio is small.

38:34
estrogen and progesterone are at similar levels in the luteal phase. And that's what's influencing its impact on substrate metabolism and in this case, protein metabolism. Yeah, nice. And so you studied women in their luteal phase for your research, looking at these varying amounts of protein, or the similar protocol to men in terms of the exercise undertaken? It was identical.

39:04
being randomized in patrol, we were attempting to control that as closely as we could. Yeah. Yeah. And what did you find, Eric? We found that there was no difference. Contrary to my hypothesis that there would be a difference, we found that the protein requirements were identical between males and females on a relative basis per kilogram body weight in the luteal phase of the menstrual cycle. Yeah.

39:33
Any other sort of insights from that paper? I would just add that in the context of the protein recommendation, that this does cover the entire menstrual cycle. And that was the point of this study, is that it could be a practical applied takeaway. Then there were other aspects of the study that made it a very large study. This was the first time utilizing the indicator amino acid oxidation technique in an at-home setting.

40:02
which was because of COVID primarily, but also it allowed us to, it gave us the opportunity to utilize the method and adapt the method to being able to be used in a more real life scenario rather than people just being housed in a lab. It's a proof of concept study that it can be used in a real life setting. Also, we use a slightly modified version.

40:32
of the IAO where we had less protein intakes to use what we call the three-point curve. So it has implications, particularly for further research using the IAO. But for your listeners, anybody who's a coach or a dietician or a nutritionist or an athlete or an exerciser, the takeaway for them is really that...

40:59
The protein requirement is 1.8 grams per kilogram here as well, 15% of energy requirements. And that's recommended for both males and females, even though amino acid oxidation is lower in the follicular phase. Yeah. Now that's really great practical advice. And I know that in at least my population that I work with, it's not, a lot of people find it challenging actually to get 1.8 grams per kilogram body weight.

41:28
And many people come into my clinic and they're, they are definitely on the low end on sort of the one to 1.2 grams and have a noticeable struggle with like recovery and things like that. So this is like super practical information. Yeah, and I'll add to that. I mean, we discussed this briefly in the paper and I discussed it more at length in my thesis is that there are some little kind of rules of thumb

41:58
really applied strategies where we don't necessarily have to count the number of things that we're consuming that can be helpful on an individual level to help people meet those protein requirements. One is that as practitioners, I'm sure if we're aware of everything going on within the space within the last five, 10 years, we've become highly cognizant of low energy availability and how prevalent that is.

42:28
And we know that if somebody is not consuming adequate energy, then they are very likely to be under consuming protein as well. So just assess energy status and we bring up their energy intake to that appropriate level for adequate fueling within a normal diet, quote unquote, normal diet, or what people typically consume on average anyways, that often meets protein requirements.

42:58
trick that helps people meet their protein requirements is that, at least here in North America, I'm sure it's similar in New Zealand, that the time of day that we tend to under-consume protein is breakfast. Oh, yeah. Lunch, fairly adequate. Dinner, adequate, sometimes overboard. But you can see in research that those who add protein-based food, so food that's higher in protein than it is carbohydrates or fat.

43:27
to their breakfast are more likely to meet their needs across the day. And then if you add it to a snack as well, just having individuals consume a protein based food for snack, you don't even have to tell them anything else and they often will meet their needs across the day. And importantly, feel so much better for it. Absolutely. Yeah. And maximize protein synthesis. There you go. And you can. Exactly. Now I know that we're coming up on time, Eric. But I do.

43:56
I mean, we briefly discussed the carbohydrate requirements and if you are lower carbohydrate, then your protein requirements will increase. Does the 1.8 grams cover off those athletes who are choosing to be lower carbohydrate in your research knowledge or just practical experience or do they need to be higher? Like any further insights there?

44:20
Yeah, we conducted a study in our lab looking at the impact of low carbohydrate training or training low. And coming back to what we were saying before, when you're training with low glycogen availability, more protein is used for fuel. And that's exactly what we saw. In our case, with a 10 kilometer run, the protein requirements were elevated by about 7%.

44:48
or about 0.12 grams per kilogram. So my recommendation is if we're following the 1.8 grams per kilogram, that's what's appropriate for the individual. If that's the higher protein intake compared to 15%, then add 0.12 grams per kilogram. For them, it was only another 10 grams in the day. So I recommend adding that.

45:16
your day, if you're doing a low carbohydrate training session, if you're following the 15%, whatever the protein intake that you determined from that 15%, if it's 100 grams, then adds 7% to that. If we want to keep it simple, most people just add another 10 grams of protein, 10 to 20 grams of protein in their day, and they'll likely be meeting that extra requirement from

45:45
low carbohydrate training. Yeah, no, that's nice. And I do know that you also, and again, very short on time, but you also wrote a great paper looking at muscle centric sort of thinking around intermittent fasting protocols. And look, I had a whole bunch of questions, which I know that we won't sort of get through, but what was your...

46:11
major sort of take home when looking at the literature around intermittent fasting and its impact on muscle metabolism, protein metabolism in the context of athletes. Like if we sort of keep it in the realm of what we've been talking about. Where that paper came from is first of all that my original PhD project was going to be looking at intermittent fasting and its impacts on muscle protein synthesis as well as some blood glucose markers and other metrics that we were

46:41
The literature review I did on that, which wasn't able to be brought to fruition because of COVID, turned into that review paper that people can look up by myself, Eric Williamson, and Daniel Moore, my PhD supervisor, muscle-centric view on intermittent fasting. And the main takeaway there is that it is a suboptimal approach for muscle, mass, and quality.

47:09
we can also consider that recovery and adaptations to training. Because each time you consume protein, you stimulate muscle protein synthesis. And if we're meeting that minimum requirement to stimulate muscle protein synthesis, based on research in resistance training, athletes, it's about 0.3 grams per kilogram, at least.

47:36
we are maximizing that muscle protein synthetic response at that time. And we can, that rate of protein synthesis can only go so high. So if we over consume, if we consume 0.5 grams per kilogram, that rate of protein synthesis, particularly at the muscle level, is still only able to reach that level at the 0.3 provided. Yeah. At that meal. Exactly. So if we want to,

48:06
take advantage of stimulating muscle protein synthesis as many times as we can throughout the day, then we need to be eating multiple meals throughout the day. So it does need to come back down. We need to have a drop in protein synthesis before we can stimulate it again. And that's about three to five hours between meals and snacks. But to maximize our muscle protein synthesis across the day, it's best to have four to five meals

48:34
separated by three to five hours, which having a prolonged fast does not make that possible. Yeah. There are only so many hours in the day. I will say still, there's probably people out there thinking, I am that fast and I'm getting muscle and I'm adapting to my exercise. Yeah. Certainly, exercise is by far the most important component here. We're saying it's suboptimal. I want to do everything I can to adapt my exercise or gain muscle.

49:04
then that's what I'm suggesting is having that four to five meals or snacks, meaning hitting that minimum amount of protein separated by three to five hours. Yeah, no, that's great advice, really good context. And most people listening to this will want to be thinking of ways to optimize. So this is where I think it is super relevant. Eric, thank you so much for your time this morning, your evening. I really appreciate it. Can you let the listeners know where they can find either you or your team?

49:34
at Unlocked. And of course, we will put links to the papers that we discussed and your nutrition coaching service in the show notes as well. Well, thank you so much, Mick. It's been a pleasure chatting with you today. People can find us at Unlocked Fitness and Nutrition on Instagram and on TikTok. So at Unlocked Fitness and Nutrition. And you can also check out our website.

50:03
Unlo We offer a free initial assessment, a free call with one of our coaches. I encourage anyone who's thinking about it to please take us up on. That is awesome, Eric. Thank you so much and enjoy your evening. Enjoy your morning, Mickey. Thank you again.

50:36
Hopefully you've enjoyed that. I really enjoyed geeking out with Eric and as I see they'll pop links to those papers in the show notes. Next week on the podcast I speak to Dr. Roderick Morgan about overall health, what's important. You know I love a deep dive into health. Until then though, if you have yet to sign up to my Unlocking Fat Loss Success series, it's tomorrow. If you're listening to this on Wednesday, go for it. Do it.

51:04
Sign up, everything is being recorded, I'm giving away a ton of information to help make your fat loss journey successful in 2024. So also pop links in the show notes to that. But if you've got any questions on anything at all, you can catch me over on Instagram, threads and Twitter @mikkiwilliden, Facebook @mikkiwillidennutrition to my website mikkiwilliden.com and sign up to that unlocking fat loss success. I'd love to see you there.

51:33
All right, team, have a nice week. See you later.