00:00
Hey everyone, it's Mikki here. You're listening to Mikkipedia, and this week on the podcast, I welcome back Dr. Cliff Harvey and Darren Ellis.

00:20
As always guys, we have such a fun conversation. Cliff and Darren and I discuss strength training, fitness, nutrition, health, and just things that are sparking their interests right now. You know, what I love most about our conversations is not only is there a practical element, so you will learn new things that you will be able to practically apply.

00:45
I also find talking to people with the types of perspectives that both Cliff and Darren have opens me up to thinking about things in a different way. You know, they've got just some great insights into how the world works from their perspective. And anytime that we, I guess, expose ourselves to different ways of thinking, you can just grow from that. And this is what I love about having super smart friends like Cliff and Darren. Now, both of these guys have been on the podcast before.

01:14
Numerous times actually. Cliff Harvey is New Zealand's expert on the effects of a ketogenic diet in a healthy population. He is so much more than that. He has been helping people to live healthier, happier lives and to perform better since starting in clinical practice back in the late 1990s. Over this time he has been privileged to work with many Olympic professional Commonwealth and other high-performing athletes, along with just, you know, general people and...

01:41
He has also helped many people overcome the effects of chronic and depilitating health conditions. Along the way, he has founded or co-founded many successful businesses in the health, fitness and wellness space, including the Holistic Performance Institute, New Zealand's leading certification and diploma for health nutrition, health coaching and performance that has many of the world's experts teaching on the course, so students are learning from the best. Cliff

02:09
has over 20 years experience as a strength and nutrition coach. And in addition to his PhD research, he's a registered clinical nutritionist, a qualified naturopathic professional, and he holds a diploma in fitness. So you can find Cliff over at cliffharvey.com or head to the Holistic Performance Institute for more information on their courses. And Darren is another New Zealand guru.

02:37
He has a master's degree in exercise physiology and obviously a FSC background. He was the first person to bring CrossFit to New Zealand shores. And he has an aim to share what he's learned with as many people as possible, teaching them that there are no shortcuts with exercise, but that it can be achievable and even fun with good coaching and a supportive peer group. He is a regular contributor to a variety of popular print and web-based health and fitness magazines.

03:06
public speaker and consultant to sporting organizations, businesses, universities, and television. And he is also our lead strength expert in Monday's Matter. What Darren doesn't know about fitness probably isn't worth knowing. So you can find Darren at www. And obviously we'll put links to Darren and Cliff in the show notes. So you can reach out to them directly.

03:34
Before we crack on into the show though, I would just like to remind you that the best way to support this podcast is to hit the subscribe button on your favorite podcast listening platform. And why not just be that most awesome person and leave a five-star review? Because that increases the show's visibility out there in amongst the literally thousands of other podcasts. Thanks team, appreciate you. For now though, please enjoy the conversation that I have with Dr. Cliff Harvey and Darren Ellis.

04:05
Nice one. Anyway, how's our week gone, Tim? Sick kids. So yeah, work from home. But then again, it's weird because I'm also extremely grateful that we can manage it because I'm here anyway. It just means I get less work done. But as opposed to, oh, I need to take a sick day, arrange to stay home from work or something like that. Or do the sneaky dose them up with Pamela, send them off and cross fingers.

04:35
Don't get a phone call. Yeah, nice one. Nice one. Um, so guys, tell me what's, what's been up this morning? Do you guys have a morning routine to either of you? Coffee. Yeah, I'm, yeah, I'm definitely a creature of habit. I roll out of bed when I hear Dexter calling out, go and get him set up for some breakfast, have two glasses of water.

05:05
a shake with protein greens and fish oil, then hit the coffee and then train every bloody day. Nice. More or less. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know if I don't train in the morning, just my brain doesn't fire the same way. I was thinking about this this morning because I have a podcast with Anna Lemp, is it Lempkey? She wrote Dopamine Nation. I think it's LempSip. Oh, sorry. No, that's pseudoepidrenation.

05:34
Yes, yes, there you go. There you go. Soon to be returning to our shores. Yeah, what a weird sort of flagship policy. What policy is this? So the ACT party has pushed really hard. It's one of the first policy initiatives to get pseudoepidrine back on shelves, which is fine. I mean, who cares? It's a good decongestant, right? So it works for people, but it seems like a strange thing. We've got so many.

06:04
challenges to really spend a lot of time and effort on that. But hey, I guess it's, yeah, it is what it is. Maybe that's one of the things that they can do quite quickly because they do have that 100 days in policy. We want to do these, or 100 days in government, we want to do these 100 things, right? So maybe that was like, oh, that seems like an easy win, quickly. Yeah, and it might've been one of those ones that was sort of not contentious at all. So it could just be passed pretty easily.

06:33
But yeah, where we derailed your documentation. Oh no. Yeah, that was my fault. Miki, I'm not exercising at all in the mornings and I'm feeling it because I'm the same as you guys. I love that routine and we're just currently going through, yes, some interesting sleep wake things where it's sort of, I think I have a moment and then Billy jumps out of the bedroom and she's wide awake and my wife's just got into surfing and she's mad for it.

07:02
So I'm definitely trying to give her like first crack if the conditions are right. Oh, that's cool. So yeah, I go into the lounge and I'll just do like five minutes mobility or something and get my little dose there. But yeah, it's not, we'll work our way back to it. Yeah. Because yeah, I'm the same as you guys. Because like people often say, oh, is it the endorphins? Is it the endorphins that you, you know, that gets you fired up in the morning? And I just wonder whether it's more dopamine, actually.

07:31
What is it? It's arrogance for me. It's pure arrogance. I got more done before you even got it. That's what helps me get through the day. That scorn, that disdain for the rest of the human race. Yeah, that's funny. Sounds a bit like you, Darren. That sounds like your personality type. I mean, you could probably test it out. You could get up one morning, train, get up the next morning, do a couple lines of coke, see whether it's the whole dopamine thing. I think with...

08:00
with anything, it's very easy to overcompartmentalize it, I guess, or, you know, to really get trying to get down into one pathway or one chemical. But with exercise, you know, it's so many things. You're sure there's going to be biochemical responses, there's going to be some endorphins. You know, are they really that appreciable from weight training? I'm not sure. Or is that more, you know, from that long sustained sort of cardio, but of course, there's going to be just straight sort of

08:28
Stimulant responses in terms of catecholamines, there's going to be dopamine. But you're also breathing, you're standing up a little bit straighter, you know, your posture, you've probably got a bit of that sort of synovial fluid, you know, activation and you're sliding the fascia around and doing all those things. I mean, plus there's the psychosocial stuff where you're doing something that you know is good for you and in line with what your ethos and values are. So

08:57
There's so much wrapped up with it. I think that the key thing is you do it in the morning, you just feel better because you kind of somewhere deep down, know it's got to be done. So you've done it. And ticking things off is such a massive, I mean, that probably does play into the dopamine thing too, right? Like that's why having a short to-do list, even if you've got another long one, is such a good strategy because if you're ticking off those key things on any given day, you feel so accomplished and that's a massive thing. Well, I have to say with to-do lists, I even put things on there that I've already done.

09:26
so I can immediately tick it off. Like, oh yeah, put that on my to-do list. Oh yeah, did that already. Like you do, you feel good. That's not silly. That's a really good idea. Yeah. All your apps have got the streak. That's like, you know, such a common thing to add is, you know, what's your daily streak. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Gamifying that to-do list for exercise. And I definitely think, of course, morning exercise, you have the least possible resistance, less obstacles to getting it done.

09:55
You just get out of bed and you do it. And so yeah, you've got a better chance of maintaining that streak or starting that streak or however you want to look at it when it's in the morning. I almost never train if it's not in the morning now. If I miss my training in the morning, I can be at nine times out of 10. I'm not going to get it done later. You know what? I'm pretty much exactly the same Cliff. And also what I notice is that even though I have this

10:24
I have a feeling of, to your point of the fact that you get it done and you know you need to because it's good for you and it fits your values or whatever. There is a relief when it's done. I was finishing up in the pool this morning and I'm like, cool, got that done. If I miss a session in the morning or I have a scheduled rest day, which seldom happens, the last rest day I had was actually Sunday because I just ran that 50K on Saturday. So I'm like,

10:52
I suppose I have to rest today, don't I? Even though not everyone did. I had one girl I know, she's an epic runner. She went out for a 5K run. I'm like, oh, she went out for a run. Wow. But that was a scheduled rest day. But if I sort of, by the time I get to mid-morning, the disappointment of missing a session has left actually. So I know that sometimes it's a bit of, when you know you need to rest, even though you don't really want to, this is by you, I mean me, I know that

11:22
that time will pass and actually I'll forget that I didn't exercise this morning. And that actually is just a bit of a relief from my obsessive personality mindset around training really. Because if I was addicted to anything, it would 100% be to the feeling of having exercise. That's what I think I'm addicted to. It's interesting the topical morning routines because like I say, I'm a creature of habit and I do.

11:50
generally do the same thing day in, day out. But over a longer period of time that that can still change, you know, especially when it comes to things like training, cause at the moment I'm, I have two full rest days a week. That's just because it just doesn't work on those days to train mostly, but it works out with other things I'm doing. Cause I have a much harder training session the following day, just by nature of how things are planned at the moment. And so I'm doing longer, like quite long.

12:19
comparative to the sort of time I've got available, because obviously with kids and work and all that kind of stuff, there's not a lot of time, but relatively long training sessions, pretty high intensity, you know, really trying to push hard on those sessions, but fewer of them. Whereas at other times I might be doing, you know, just a 15 or 30 minute session every single day, or maybe, you know, a 15 minute session twice a day. And so it's the only reason I bring that up is I've been talking to quite a few students about this, the, um,

12:47
The idea of experimenting and having fun and allowing things to shift with your life, I think is really important because so many people are trying to find the, the perfect training plan, the perfect diet plan, the perfect supplement that's going to solve their problems. But something might work for a while. It doesn't mean that it will or has to work for the longterm, you know, and I was talking about that with a student the other day. I said, well, look, the way I'm eating at the moment is quite different to how I was eating probably 12 months ago.

13:15
And that's just because it feels right to do it this way at the moment. So, you know, it's, it's, it's pretty different, but it's working and we shouldn't get married. I don't think it's any particular diet or training strategy. I don't think because that might become incompatible with what we're trying to do at some point. I wonder whether we need to in fact, get married to the way we feel, you know, like, like what's going to get you to that outcome that you desire and these sort of methods and stuff will change. I'm going to come back to your diet changes.

13:45
a minute, Cliff, because you and I often talk about what Cliff's doing in terms of supplements and diet. But I don't know, Darren, that I've ever asked you about your diet necessarily, like in a way of, how much has your diet shifted over the last few years? Because you're very much a CrossFit Paleo-esque person back in the day. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's funny timing, because I think I just threw in a story. I just came out through some Q&A stuff I was doing on there.

14:14
that I've all but quit bacon. And it used to be such a, like almost a point of pride in those early CrossFit days. Like someone had given us permission to eat bacon because it was paleo. And I ate protein and fat. So what's wrong with it? And yeah, and I was on that bandwagon hard. And it's not difficult because bacon is delicious. But for whatever reason, my taste

14:44
mallowed over the years, maybe through the sheer tonnage of canned tuna. A bit like tuna in my student years. I think I mentioned that on the last potty I was on with you, Zoom call with you that I tried it again for the first time in 20 years and it wasn't too bad. But I don't know for sure that canned tuna is making it back into the rotation. And yet bacon, we've had the last two packets of bacon in the fridge have gone off.

15:10
where they've been opened for a meal and it's still not really touched again. And then it starts to get this real weird aroma. So, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, aged. Uh, so yeah, I guess I've gone through that, that sort of gamut of, um, sort of getting exposed from a primal sort of Marxist perspective and then, and then getting quite, quite strict with it.

15:36
I can remember even I was relating this to someone being at a restaurant where the service was really slow and the meals hadn't turned up, but there's a basket of bread sitting on there and we were all these hardcore CrossFitters and we were just staring at this bread and no one was going to touch it because bread was the devil. And we didn't, and we didn't get served. It was like 10 p.m. or something ridiculous that dinner finally came out. But that's where we're at. And now, you know, eating the crust off.

16:04
off my daughter's bread pretty much daily. And it's a whole different approach. So I'm still just probably real food. I would say I'm still on the lower carb end of the spectrum. This seems to feel right for me. And as far as nutrient timing, most of my carbs would end up sort of post-workout. But really, yeah, I guess eat meat and veggies is my thing. But it does, like Cliff mentioned, it seems like that'll take different...

16:35
that'll appear in a different way on a slower track. And Cliff, what about you? What are you doing differently now than what you were say 12 months ago? When we might've last had this conversation actually. Yeah, it's funny that Des says that about bacon because I had a very similar thought about full fat milk because like it came back strong, right? And I don't think there's anything wrong with full fat milk, obviously. All the research tells us that full fat dairy is...

17:02
no risk to mortality. It's basically the same as any other type of dairy, whatever. So I think it almost became a badge of honor for people who were maybe in, not paleo, because that's obviously dairy, but maybe in the more primal, low-carb sort of space, that you have to have full-fat dairy. But I don't think that's not congruent with the research or what we necessarily can and should be doing personally, because it just means that there's no problem with full-fat dairy.

17:33
So anyway, I bring that up because I recently have sort of thought, well, why am I having full fat dairy if I can have like a low fat or trim milk that has a lot more protein in it? Because one of the things I typically find if I'm tracking, because I do track, you know, once every six to 12 months or something, just to check in and see where I'm at is that sometimes I am a little bit under protein, especially if I'm stressed, working hard, whatever. And it's the difference between

18:02
you know, maybe having a glass of milk with a, a cliff bar or something and getting what would it be.

18:12
maybe 21 grams of protein versus over 30 grams of protein. It adds up, right? It's quite a lot. Because with the ultra-filtered milks, they're quite high in protein. Sometimes it can be almost double what you get from full fat milk. So that's one change I've made is if I feel like I'm needing something, I don't really wanna eat a full meal, a protein bar and a big glass of milk, which could have been a fallback in the past, it's got that much more protein in it. So it's just kind of an interesting thing where you're losing some of the dogma that's associated with

18:42
diet styles, just to make things a bit more functional. But how I'm eating now is I realized that I was falling into a trap of probably not eating that much in the morning again. And that's not a problem, except that I tend to under eat. And so when I get up in the morning, like I say, I have a big protein shake with greens and fish oil in it. After training, I have a really big protein shake. So I have usually about a gram.

19:11
protein per kilo body weight. So for me, that's 90 grams of protein with mango and creatine and peanut butter and all sorts of stuff thrown in there. But then I typically don't really eat much during the day. And this is quite similar to how I used to eat maybe 10 or 15 years ago. And it's mainly just because I'm so busy at the moment, I just don't feel like eating and I don't feel like sitting down and forcing myself to have a big lunch. So if I have anything at all, I'll typically just grab a whole bunch of crisp vegetables or fruit.

19:42
So it might be, you know, celery and capsicums and, you know, if I've got an apple there or whatever and just cut all that up and just eat it because it feels good in summer to be eating that crunchy, fresh kind of stuff. And I find that gets me through the day completely fine, probably because I've had that massive bolus of protein in the morning too. And then I just have, um, you know, a sort of protein veggie based dinner and pretty much after every dinner, I have chocolate and milk.

20:10
And that's kind of like my diet, right? It's funny though too, because I think I'm eating more vegetables because if I do have anything during the day, I have a big server vegetables. And that frees me up a little bit at night because I'm not really that big a fan of having vegetables with dinner. I like having meat, pretty much just meat, maybe some carbs, you know? And most of my carbs are in the evening because through the day, it's not a lot of carbohydrate. Even if I am having a little bit of fruit or quite a lot of vegetables, obviously, it's still.

20:37
bugger or carbs. So it kind of is that carb backloading style, not for any purpose and not because carb backloading is in any way magical. It's not, it's just, it's just what works. And I like having the carbs at night because it feels more comforting. I think it helps to drive down that stress response. And it's just one of those things, you know, you eat a whole bunch of carbs with dinner and afterwards you feel sleepy. And that's great. So a couple of things there. One is I really.

21:04
Interesting to your point, Cliff, about full fat dairy. When we did all go through that primal phase and full fat came back on the menu, a lot of, like me included, read that as, oh, fat free is just terrible. We shouldn't be doing it. Not for the reason why a lot of people would say, so high in sugar. None of the low fat dairy that I ever chose was ever high in sugar.

21:31
But it was almost like this absolute backlash. Anything fat-free had to be unnatural and not ideal for you. However, once I shifted my thinking and actually thought more about it, well, actually, that's not true. Have the dairy that you prefer became my thing. If you prefer low fat, absolutely do that. I'd get a lot of backlash, actually, particularly when I put up something like the de-winkle

22:00
part of yogurt, like that's the one that we get when it's on special, otherwise it's Gopala. And people would go, oh, it's terrible. It's fat-free yogurt. Just eat the full fat. And it's like, well, actually, for some people, Cliff mentioned the difference in protein that you're not going to find with the yogurt per se, but that's one reason why someone might choose a lower fat, but also just calories. There are people who are...

22:27
trying to improve their body composition, we need to create a calorie deficit. And if it's no sacrifice to you, do the low-fat dairy rather than sort of spend your calories on the full fat version, which could be double what you would otherwise take in. Like low-fat to me just sort of makes sense to that regard. And- I've been similar. And that's thanks to you, Mickey.

22:51
Oh, big. Cottage cheese is like the tuna. It's found its way back from the student days, back into my life. And it's partly like a caloric approach. And then partly like you were saying, Cliff, the protein load. It's a struggle in the morning. And eggs seem like they're this massive protein dose, right? And you chuck five in a bowl and you're still looking at 30, 35 grams. Yeah. Which isn't bad. But if you are eating three meals or even two meals, you need to work a little harder.

23:21
whether it's topping it up with some egg whites or some cottage cheese or some lower fat cheese. So that again, you can get that size. I'm a bit, I'm a, you know, someone who likes to eat bigger. I know you've talked about that too, Miki. Yeah, nice. And so yeah, getting your protein macros ticked without the expense of potentially calories you don't need is, it's a real helpful.

23:45
So yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. And what I tend to do, I agree with you, obviously, Darren. I'm pleased that you've taken on board some of my little nuggets of wisdom. The way that I write, what I tend to do with my eating changes across the week. Because I know is one of the reasons why is because when Baz comes home in the weekends, we generally like a little snack plate before dinner.

24:14
And so on those, I know snack plate has like the, you know, the snicks, pork grindy type things. We love them and cheese and prosciutto and things like that, which will end up being like several more sort of hundred calories that you're taking in before dinner. And one, I don't like to eat when I'm not hungry. And I also know that I like to enjoy the snack plate and then enjoy dinner. So I...

24:42
I find that I do what you describe, Cliff, and eat a bit lighter during the day. By the time it does get to that five o'clock time, I'm ready to have a snack plate and then ready to have dinner and not feel overful and just feel like I've... You pack and choose what you want to spend your calories on, basically. Exactly. That's such a good point, Miki. It really annoys me when people say, don't try and bank your calories and stuff like that.

25:11
I understand where they're coming from because for some people that can be problematic behavior and it can lead to additional like disordered eating, right? But if you're not going to fall into that, into that sort of state and you know, today I probably won't eat as much as I otherwise would. I'm not going to force myself to not eat, but I'm not going to sort of worry about eating too much because I know that we typically have burgers on a Friday night, right? So I know there's a lot coming in. I don't think there's any issue with that.

25:42
in the same way that I'll probably not feel like eating tomorrow morning because we've had a massive feed, right? So it's not so much about forcing oneself to not do something to try and bank the calories. It's more sort of listening to the body to some degree and maybe having some pragmatism around that. And if it's not, like I said, it's not going to lead to any problematic behavior, it's a good strategy to help keep your energy and take imbalance. And I don't think there's any problem with that whatsoever.

26:08
It's almost like the opposite is if we're listening to some of these influences or saying, no, you've got to stay on track, like eat that meal. So I'm going to have those treats on Friday night anyway. So by eating that meal tomorrow, I then have to probably be that much more moderate through the other meals to try and have it all balance out, you know. And so it just becomes a little bit more work. A hundred percent. And what you've described there, Cleff, sounds to me like a bit of cognitive restraint.

26:37
going on on Friday, but you've got a bit of auto regulation going on on Saturday because you just, you know, that sort of that pragmatic versus listening to your body, right? It's sort of a mix of both of those things because auto regulation can, and when you're in tune, you can much more rely on your hunger cues, I think. Yeah, exactly. And it's similar to, you see a lot thrown around about the association between low carb diets and eating disorders.

27:05
I think what's seldom taken into account by most people positing those messages is reverse causation because someone who doesn't have a tendency towards an eating disorder is not going to develop an eating disorder based on or is unlikely to develop an eating disorder based on what type of diet or strategy they're following. It's more likely in most cases that people with latent eating disorders or disordered eating patterns are going to gravitate towards more restrictive diets.

27:32
And so I think we need to be quite pragmatic about the types of rules that we put in place. You know, it's like the people who say don't have a cheat meal. It's like, well, why are you saying that? Are you saying that the cheat meal is bad or are you saying that the vernacular is bad? In other words, cheat, you know, and I think for a lot of people, maybe the idea of having a cheat isn't that positive for their mind state. But for some it is. And I think I've told you the story before about a student of mine who was came from like a coding gaming sort of background. And

28:00
She said, I love the word cheat because in my world, that means something you do to get a better result. It's like a hack to get, you know, a better result at the end of the system. And so for her, it was a really positive word. For a lot of people, it would be negative. So it's just a really good reminder that even what works well for most people most of the time, it's not gonna work well for that individual or that group of individuals who have a different mind state. That's such a good point. Cause of course I would never say cheat meal for all the reasons it.

28:28
for all the reasons why you would expect that I wouldn't, you know, like also though, I'd never, I don't know that you've told me that story before Cliff, if you have, I had, didn't listen to it. Because I would never have thought about that from like using that term as a, in a sort of positive sense. What was the other one people used to say? Don't use the word treat because you're not a dog. And I'm like, oh geez, what are we supposed to say then? You know, we're losing all these words. And I do, I often do think of food as a treat.

28:58
Like, you know, the end of a hard week at work. Just, I'm going to have a treat because I deserve it. I feel like it. It's going to help to, you know, feed my soul. I don't really care what I'm eating as long as it tastes good. See, this is, that's a really good point actually. Because I often think, you know, people say you shouldn't look at earning your food, right? Or earning, you know, what you do next. But like, when we go out on like a day mission, or even a long run, you better believe I'm thinking,

29:28
awesome, I'm earning my stout tonight. Why does that have to be a negative thing? I think people, again, people like you shouldn't treat food as a reward. But sometimes actually, there may be situations like in my head, I'm like, well, it is kind of a reward in this sense. I'm going out to the pub, I'm having some hot chips, I'm having a beer, because I just did this awesome effort. It's not that I...

29:55
It was a gruelling effort and I hated every step of the way because that's not how I feel about it. I actually love doing it, but equally I love it because it then affords me my reward at the end. Is that a negative thing? And if we go back far enough, it absolutely was a reward for the hard work that you did to get that meal created in the first place. Yes. I can speak to it through some of my younger day third world missions.

30:25
through Africa and places like that, buying a pig off a village. Oh. Then having to, and I still can remember once, it was a bit of a loose unit pig and we ended up feeding it marijuana in a banana and a sleeping pill that one of the other fellow travelers had to quiet it down so that we could hit it with an axe and then stick it with the knife and then we had to sit on it, you know, it's chasing us around and then build the fire and then...

30:54
create this like, you know, um, Jerry reg spit out of a bit of metal we found and then turn it by hand for 10 hours in shifts. And then, you know, Oh, that was not to mention we had to butcher this pig first, hoisting it up, you know, so a full day mission. And that pig at the end was manna from heaven. It was the most delicious thing I have ever eaten. Um, because we earned that treat.

31:23
Why gosh, did we? That's such a good, that's such a good point is because I think people have lost that, but it's obviously so true, you know, biochemically and physiologically that a lot of the, you know, the chemicals we're releasing in response to food are reward chemicals, right? So it literally is a reward for what you've done. Yeah. And I think I wait, like, I don't know if I've done studies to around taste. We must be though, one of the few.

31:53
species that are really intricately involved in the taste of food. You know, they say dogs don't taste anything pretty much. It's sort of like black and white. Like it's safe or not. They just pretty much will hover down anything. But again, I'm not too sure how much research is behind it, but certainly if it's not the taste, there's the social aspect, which comes back to what I was saying as well as that treat was enjoyed with everyone who had been helping out. You know, we shared the fruits of our labor. And so then we had that social treat.

32:22
of all of us sitting down there, knackered, so satisfied with what we'd done, what we'd achieved, what was now laid out for us and we got to enjoy it all together. And that's tough to try to deny yourself or reduce or take away because of a goal around body composition or performance or something like that. And so it's all on the spectrum, isn't it? Like what's your idea of a treat is? What's a cheat?

32:52
through a starvation day in order to have a treat that's probably too far on the spectrum for both, like in terms of how you've moderated, you've gone too far, and also maybe how much you value a treat meal is perhaps too high the other direction, and now you're at both extremes. Yeah, for sure. It's that food is fuel mentality that a lot of people have. Food is not enjoyment, food is fuel, and I always just think, wow, what a limited way to live your life.

33:22
If, if you want to do that, that's cool. And I'm not judging anybody, but to sort of have that as a blanket for everybody, I think is just so limiting. Cause if we start to think about everything in that way, you know, training is not enjoyable. It's just a way to build your strength, you know, and build your resilience over time and food is not enjoyable. It's just fuel. You know, what we're starting to limit our human experience so much. Well, what are we at that point? We're just automaton, right? And we can't.

33:52
Who's the guy who's trying to remove, you'd possibly know. He talks about removing the, like eating in a way that removes all pleasure. Going for more of those bland approaches. It's not Stephane, no, oh, I've lost now. But yeah, his approach was one of basically making food blander to remove that sort of hedonistic. Are you talking about the satiety peeps?

34:22
Like, hover. Possibly. Like, don't make it too enjoyable because then you're going to overeat. This is one of the pillars of the satiety index is that you need protein, you need fiber, there's something else, but you also need to remove a lot of the hedonistic nature of food. So you enjoy it a little bit, but you don't enjoy it so much that you want to eat more. I think you can make healthy food with protein and fiber. It tastes delicious. But.

34:50
it's still very difficult to overeat. I think that's a possibility. I think they're missing the point too, because if we're looking at satiety, we would typically achieve very good satiety in order of regulation eating a diet that is based mostly on more unprocessed foods. That doesn't mean in that context, we wouldn't want to add herbs, spices, those types of things.

35:16
if we remove all of those, we're removing a massive element of nutrient density. Because spices and herbs have some of the highest nutrient density of any foods, right? And I think potentially that's one of the issues with our ultra refined foods is not just that they're highly palatable, they're highly calorie dense, you know, we're a lot of calories in a very small package. It's also that most of the flavors that are involved with them are not, they're not

35:44
you know, the natural flavors with respect to coming from natural sources, but that doesn't mean anything in the food processing world. They're typically created from very isolated compounds. You know, a lot of them are created from corn and they're basically just structural elements that give a taste sensation, but they don't have all of the cofactors that you would naturally get from say herbs and spices. And a lot of those are incredibly, dare I say it medicinal, you know, we're talking about in small amounts here, but you know, you look at

36:13
the nutrient profile of herbs, it's pretty wicked. They're like vegetables on steroids. Similarly, spices, same sort of thing. So we lose all of that. We're potentially, I think, down the track going to be limiting how we can optimize our health because those things are going to help just in a very small way, but a small amount of additive benefit over a long time, over a long term is gonna be potentially pronounced. You know, it's interesting actually, because a lot of people say that things like that are overstated, Cliff. Like, oh.

36:42
A sprinkle of this here and some turmeric here, it's not really gonna move the needle in terms of your health outcomes or what you're trying to do. But to your point, if these are the things that we do every day and you have that cumulated sort of impact of things like herbs and spices, then you've got to make it up. What does a set of pushups in the morning do that much for your strength, endurance or fitness? No.

37:11
You do a set of pushups every morning. Yeah, there's gonna be an effect. Does coffee have much of an effect on fat loss? I see it really being hammered at the moment. No, it's a small effect. But if that's additive on top of other things, that small effect consistently might actually be enough to sort of tip the balance. Even creatine has quite a small effect size actually. But everyone still talks about it as the king of supplements and it is.

37:39
But any one component I think we're starting to see is actually quite limited in its effect, even if initially we see quite pronounced results in studies, it tends to sort of even out a little bit. So no one thing is going to be the answer. And I think that's what we keep going back to is people want that one thing. It's like, oh, herbs and spices aren't that important. Well, okay, take them off. And then look at the accumulated amount of antioxidants and additional nutrients and things like that that you're getting over a lifetime. Is that going to have an effect? I'd say it probably would.

38:08
Touch more on that caffeine, what are you seeing being hammered? Are people hammering it in terms of this is the thing for fat loss or are they like everyone's overstating caffeine? What are you saying? I think it's more veering towards the absolutist where the effect is so small that it just doesn't matter. I would sort of agree in some respects, but I think if you can see, we do see consistently that it does have an effect on...

38:34
fat utilization, it probably has an effect on fat loss over a period of time. That even if the effect is small, we shouldn't understate small effects because most things independently or isolated have small effects. Yeah, nice point. I reckon we should could do a study on that. You could do like, you know, how many milligrams of caffeine you would need per day on a group of individuals over like a 12 month period or something.

39:03
That's good. I think caffeine is why I'm so ripped, to be honest. N equals one. N equals one here. Hey, did you guys read that report that I sent through earlier this week saying we need to talk about this? Or did you at least read the indicative summary? Or did you at least look at the nutrition and physical activity data? I looked a little bit at it, yeah.

39:24
I like that. It took me like to, very great idea. Okay, so my major question is, are any of us at all surprised that nothing has changed over the last 15 years? Like, honestly, I read the data on the population numbers for how many people are with obesity, how many people are overweight, how many people are inactive.

39:53
how many people meet their fresh fruit and vegetable yawn consumption, and nothing has changed. And I just wonder why anyone would have expected it to have changed, and what this sort of report adds to what we do or don't know about population health. Like, I don't know, like I'm just thinking, is this just a waste of, I don't know, a couple of hundred thousand dollars to put this together? I don't think it's a waste. I think we always need updated information on where we're at,

40:23
things haven't markedly shifted at all. And I think though, as with a lot of research, the problem is in the translation to what we do next. You know, and we can make small changes to the dietary guidelines and would that help? I don't think it would really. You know, I think we're past that point and I think we need to understand that the issues of societal health are more complex than

40:52
isolating into nutrition, physical activity, or guidelines of any sort that people are supposed to just learn and follow. Because we've got a system that is really, to some degree, antithetical to health. It's not doing that in an overt way and it's no sort of conspiracy. It's just that that is not the primary driver of what we do in our modern world. The modern world is geared towards productivity.

41:20
efficiency and perpetual growth. And that is not always congruent with having people on an individual or collective sort of level be healthier and happier. But yeah, I think we need to go, as you guys know, I think we need to think way beyond health because people are, health is like massive, right? Health is a massive industry full stop. Whether we're talking about public health.

41:46
or health in terms of influence, nutrition, training, you know, it's huge. And we're all in it. We're in it and everyone's into it. You know, as I've talked about in lots of conferences and workshops and things, this when we were all getting into nutrition years and years ago, we were pretty weird, right? To be that into nutrition, I was kind of still a little bit fringe. Now everyone's into nutrition. Everyone knows a bit about it, right? Little wrongly. Everyone's taking photos of their fucking meals and doing all sorts of shit.

42:15
And everyone like just like me is an objective outcome for people. And I just don't believe that it is. I think that it's, you know, a foundation that helps us to live a happier life. But unless we've evaluated what that life actually looks like, the pursuit of health as the end goal is very arbitrary. And I don't think it leads to any sort of overall change in our society, really.

42:45
I think people need to be looking at what the real end goal is, like what's most important and how do I achieve that? And sure, health is a massive part of that, but we don't have that end goal in mind. And we certainly don't have it individually or collectively, I don't believe. It's a big cultural shift in it. We're talking to a few clients who've just sort of come back from Europe and we talk about more than just health, but obviously these countries that they're visiting are not perfect by any means either.

43:15
came across with some backwards and forwards was that these ideas around is it, is there in some countries more of a culture, a culture of wanting to be healthier and more productive and happier? And I'm thinking, you know, more into the Scandinavia kind of region, Switzerland. Yeah, it's a very vague, it's a very vague hypothesis. But certainly, there seems to be more people who are actively pursuing that.

43:45
And so then is it the culture? Is it how they're supported through government or society? And I've been weird lately, I don't know, it was part of becoming a parent. I was about this thing and I used to be into fast cars. And now I just think they are the stupidest thing ever. And we shouldn't have them. All right. And I know a lot of people would be very libertarian and people should be able to do what they want, but sometimes you look at cars and you go, they are literally to get from A to B. So why?

44:14
Why are we allowed to have these seven foot tall spoilers and massive exhaust line cars, like just ban them? If we took that attitude across to food, it gets a little bit dicey. I think most people in essence would be like, yeah, those cars are a bit stupid. Most people, 99.9% of people who drive those cars are not interested in obeying the rules, for the most part. Then should we ban, when it comes to food and remove obstacles, which is part of what we're talking about way back to morning routines?

44:43
getting it done early, making it easier. It wouldn't be easier if fruit and veggies were cheap and you couldn't buy chocolate. Again, I love chocolate, so I don't want that. But where does it lie on the spectrum? And yeah, how much should the government stick their nose in in the name of public health? I lean towards a little bit more, but then of course it's who watches the watchman, right? We think it could be, we got in a very dark.

45:13
path if the wrong people, and that's our opinion too. If I decided that that's the wrong approach, I went too late now. I've voted for that government to lay out nutritional policy. So I know solutions there, just gave more problems. I think there's potentially some leads that we would see in the research though, right? Because I think what we do know fairly well, based on a lot of study and...

45:43
behavioral psychology and behavioral economics in particular, mostly from behavioral economics, is that punitive actions are a poor driver of motivation. Right? So if I'm going to punish you for something, it's not that good a driver of motivation. If I'm going to reward you directly for something, that's not a good driver of motivation either. So you know, the sort of carrot or stick are probably both quite limited. The biggest drivers of motivation is, are pretty much culture and social pressure.

46:12
So I think to your point, Des, I wonder if in those types of places, there is a much better culture of, you know, maybe it's just community. You know, we know that that's one of those things that's really strongly associated with longevity, right? It's having a strong and stable community, lots of social support. You know, that's a really important part of eating in a lot of these places, as you're eating with, you know, friends and family. It's very much for social enjoyment, you know, all those types of things. So I think...

46:41
with social cohesion and community and a really good culture, I think maybe a lot of these things just start to occur. Maybe it also gives the space for people to be able to have, I guess, the wherewithal to start to think a little bit more about what makes them happy. I don't know, but I think those are important. They're important questions to consider.

47:10
New Zealand trying to cut their carbon, for example, but we know, hey, we're a very tiny country. So there's that sort of argument versus well, if Russia and America don't do it, then is there any point in us trying so hard? And then who are penalized? Perhaps lower socioeconomic first. Or if we talk about, I don't know, recycling, if people can't afford fruit and veggies, do they really care about recycling?

47:39
There's those issues I feel I think about a lot is like, how do we get those, those bigger things addressed when often there's other way more important issues to some people. That's all they're going to be thinking about. Yeah. I mean the, the brain space and the energy to think about all these things is I don't think available to a lot of people. And that, that includes us at times, right? Even though we probably benefit from

48:06
being in this industry and having habits that have developed over a long time, that allows us to be a bit more resilient in the face of all these stresses in life. But if we didn't know so much about nutrition and training and we hadn't devoted our lives to it, and we were in some other job, getting home after a 10, 11, 12 hour day, what are we going to default to? We don't have a lot of the knowledge that...

48:33
would allow us to make good choices. We're being bombarded with information which is really disparate and confusing. And so it's, I can completely understand why people just say, look, I just don't know what to do. I just default to grabbing whatever's in the pantry. Or I'll just go down the local takeaway and buy whatever I feel like because I just want at that point to eat and I wanna be satisfied and I want some degree of enjoyment. Like we're talking about treats before. And that's the other thing with social, what people call social vices.

49:02
uh, tobacco, you know, we often penalize very harshly people who use those things. But I also have a bit of empathy for them because if that's all you got, like if that's your thing that at the end of the week, you've got 20 bucks that you can spend on a pack of Ziggy's. I don't know whether you can buy a pack of Ziggy's for 20 bucks. I don't think you can. Maybe get a dozen beers or something. You know, if that's your, your, your one.

49:33
your one sort of vice that you have, who are we to say you're wrong, per se? And who are we to say that you're morally wrong for that? Because it is, we're all complicit in that, right? We're all culpable to some degree in having a society that doesn't reward people that well. You know, considering that our minimum wage is way below what the living wage is. That's crazy to me, to think that you have people who are being paid less than what they need to live.

50:02
healthily and happily. Crazy. I just don't get that. And so those people are we, and you know the idea, I was reading a really interesting article on the idea of unskilled labor, and a lot of unskilled labor, probably most of it, the vast majority, is actually quite highly skilled, because not any of us could just walk into someone's unskilled labor job and do it very well. Oh, 100%. They have particular skills, it's just that it's stuff that's not always palatable to most people.

50:32
It's often hard work. It's paid really poorly. And a lot of what is considered unskilled is based on societal tropes, you know? And I just don't get how someone who cleans toilets should get paid almost nothing because that's a literally shitty job, right? I think they should be paid quite well for it because who wants to do it? If you're being paid for something that no one else wants to do.

50:59
You're actually a fairly rare person, so you should probably be rewarded quite well for it. Sorry, I went a bit of a tangent there. No, that is such a good point. I was thinking about that. In my Form 7 year, I had a cleaning job, 8 till 11 at night, from Monday through Friday. I can't even believe I did that now, actually. But my dad is a cleaner. And I was so rubbish. Like, seriously, I don't know how I managed to keep that job for the entire year. Like, because I couldn't clean.

51:29
And it wasn't through lack of effort, but for whatever reason, I'd keep getting these, you'd have the performance sort of reviews every sort of three months. I do believe I held that job for only like 12 months. And it was, and I would just like barely pass the mustard every time. And it wasn't because I was just lazy or didn't try, like I legit just couldn't do it properly. Like it just wasn't actually in my skillset to see detail.

51:59
to be able to do what they wanted me to do. I mean, I can do an all right job, but that was about it. You said something, oh yeah, you go. Oh no, on Sunday, Mick, I don't know if you guys saw this, but I put up a spring pre-trampling. Yeah, I did. And so you've probably got one, Daz. I'd love to hear your opinion on it, but they say you need two people, at least two people to put it up, whatever. And it was just me, so I put up this thing. It was hard, man, it was really hard. And I know that...

52:29
As I was getting towards the end, I realized there was a lot of technique involved and it became a bit easier, but putting in some of those little tension struts nearly broke me. Like I'm not a, I'm not a weak person, but it was really freaking hard. And I messaged one of my mates who has one and said, Oh, um, dude, that was one of the physically hardest things I've done was to put this thing up by myself. And then just message back and said, Oh dude, the, um,

52:55
I just got it installed and the guy came around and did it in 20 minutes. This little guy came around and just snapped it together in like 20 minutes. So that goes to show that dude is probably putting up, I don't know, five of these things a day. Yeah. And like I say, I'm not a weak person and I found it one of the hardest things I've done. But that guy's not unskilled. He's got a lot of skill putting up those trampolines. Yeah, 100%.

53:21
Have you got one, Dan? Yeah, we went old school. We got the spring one, but yeah, it's, we had to, there's a special tool that you had to like hook onto the springs and drag to get them in times a hundred of them or more and yeah, massive, massive grip, massive. I tried to turn it into a game, you know, figuring out the best leverage and swapping hands and this step and the other. I did it, I was doing it for Christmas day. So I did half the job Christmas Eve and then I got up at 5 AM and finished it off so it could be up.

53:51
for the morning and yeah, did it solo as well. I rush into any kind of task like that and then find that it's 5% from finished and I've done something wrong right at the beginning that involves me having to completely dismantle it and start again, you know, furniture and things. So I've learned to slow down. So this is partly necessity and partly plan to split it over two days just to ensure I could actually get through a very technical process.

54:21
Unsurprisingly, I would just outsource all of that. Cliff, I know what I was going to say, actually, on the back of you talking about everyone's social vice. Alcohol. And this has, if I say alcohol has gotten a bad rap on social media lately, it's not that it's ever been celebrated as something we should all include and enjoy, albeit I do include and I do enjoy. And that would be my social vice of choice. But after that,

54:50
Bloody Huberman podcast, right? And he's really banging the drum in every single podcast that he can possibly insert into it. I don't drink. He does it regardless of how relevant it is to the conversation and he manages to sort of like say that in every single conversation he has of the podcast I've listened to. The interesting thing is how everyone has, apart from Eucliffe and Chris Masterjohn,

55:20
jumped on this, no amount of alcohol is safe, no one should drink, sort of message. And look, I'm not going to say it's healthy because it's not, but both you and Chris Masterjohn pointed out that the role that toxins might play in our health, and they're not all necessarily bad news, Cliff. So I was interested to chat to you a little bit about that. But first, I want to know, like, do you guys drink?

55:49
Like, I mean, what's your sort of usual sort of like approach to alcohol? It depends. Like I bought, I think a dozen beers on maybe the day before New Year's Eve or something. And I only just replaced them. So I had like 12 beers over the course of two months. So I've bought another dozen beers and I've had one a day.

56:18
since then. So, you know, it goes up and down, but I never, I don't drink a lot. I never drink much at all. It might be one or two beers in a sitting and usually it's only, you know, one or two days a week. So I probably average two drinks a week. So it's, it's bugger all. Yeah. Um, do you drink it all day? It's something pretty similar. Uh, it's gone up, it's gone up since having a daughter. Um, and that's, I guess that's where I'm like somewhat conflicted.

56:48
If we go circle right back to the story I was telling about refusing to touch bread, at that time of my life, I didn't touch alcohol at all either. And it was very much, I was in fitness for performance and competition and winning and da-da-da. And that was a whole different kettle of fish. These days, yeah, but much more moderate approach. Love a social glass of wine or a cider on a hot summer's day. But I've definitely noticed that one or two will affect sleep.

57:18
And I've also noticed over the last couple of years that my wife and I was like, what a day we've just had. I need a wine, I need a cider. And we both kind of didn't like that. We felt like alcohol was going to fix it, you know, and that maybe is tying back into the treat cheat meal as well. Like just, there's nothing wrong with that per se. It is nice to have something good after a slog. But were we taking kind of the wrong approach, but I need this

57:47
glass because it's been the day and I need it to help me get to sleep or whatever. So yeah, we haven't quit. We just tried to be a little bit more mindful of, I guess, not our quantity, but just our approach or our why behind what we're having now. And I definitely would prefer to take it as a social reason than a medicated one, I suppose.

58:17
Yeah. Yeah. And I always, I think Cliff and I have talked about it, yonks ago, this study, oh wait, it stuck in my mind. I saw it when I was doing my post-grad and the graph was kind of a tick shape and it was like talking about units of alcohol per day and mortality and it showed that zero was slightly worse than one, but then after one it got worse again and that seemed to suggest that moderation was just the best approach and people who were being moderate in their drinking were probably also moderate.

58:46
any other vices or approaches. And one drink is probably consumed in more of a social situation than by yourself where you might be five or six. And that tea total is maybe too extreme about other things or did not have a social network that promoted an occasional friendly drink. And that was an issue when we see the power of social settings with longevity as well. So yeah, that's where we're currently at.

59:15
you know, no safe dose trope trotted out so much recently. And it was funny cause I did a little, um, just a little thread on the jammer meta analysis from last year. I think it was, you know, sort of the latest meta analysis on alcohol and all cause mortality. And, um, I had a whole bunch of people replying with the study. I was talking about saying, Hey, well, what about this? So, well, that's the exact study I was talking about. And it shows that

59:45
If you're having less than, I think it was actually that the amount wasn't that low. It surprised me. If you're having sort of less than I think it was around three drinks per day. And the standard drinks is a tough one as well because it differs by country. So I think it could be two or it could be up to four, depending on the country and how they standardize their drinks. But it's not that small an amount.

01:00:10
I probably think that's maybe a little bit too high and other studies have shown that maybe it's closer for all-cause mortality or particularly cancer-related mortality is maybe around one drink per day, but it's certainly not, you know, no safe dose. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anything that has no safe dose. Even things that we know as toxins like arsenic, it might actually be a micro, micro, essential trace nutrient.

01:00:39
but we're never gonna not get the amount we need from just normal exposure, right? So any amount over that is probably gonna be harmful to health, but still, even if we get right into the minutia, there's gonna be some dose at which it's safe. And I think people always need to consider that when they're talking about toxins and whether something is toxic. I had someone say the other day, well, but sugar's toxic. I said, okay, well, let's look at it acutely. Try and kill yourself with sugar.

01:01:08
You're going to be very hard pressed to do it acutely, right? Eat as much sugar as you can tomorrow and see if you die. It's probably not going to happen. Now take water and drink as much water as you can tomorrow. You'll probably kill yourself. So even things that obviously there's toxicity with anything that's essential, some things are actually remarkably safe. Try and kill yourself with alcohol, very easy. Try and kill yourself with cannabis, almost impossible.

01:01:35
You know, there's, so there's a lot of nuance within that. And I just think people love to get the simplest answer from the simplest podcast out there. I still remember visiting the, uh, Kedava lab in Auckland med school. And, uh, the, the doctor pulled out the, the woman's lungs, which were black as and said, what do you think's going on here? And we were all smoking smoking. No, she's, she's, she was 80 and she lived in Auckland all her life. Smoked. Wow.

01:02:05
Yeah. And then we're like, oh, moving to the country. Air quality. Yeah, air quality is a massive morbidity and mortality risk. Yeah, it's huge. You made your escape from Auckland, Darren. Yeah, and I ended up in the mountain where it seems like traffic is proportionally worse because everyone's either trying to go from the mountain to Tauranga or from Papama to Tauranga and back again along this little isthmus.

01:02:34
And so, which is similar to the way Auckland set up. So yeah, just on a different level.

01:02:41
So yeah, but I am lucky I can walk and bike where I need to go. And my wife has a little Vespa and she just she scoots along to work. So it's, it's definitely an improvement for us personally. Um, but by gosh, some people suffer, suffer majorly for traffic around here, which is interesting. We never drive. I drive twice a week. What a luxury though, isn't it? Isn't it just amazing? Like we're getting, we.

01:03:06
becoming a one car family and I think we feel the diesel admittedly, but we still fill it up every five or six weeks and the Vespa. We thought about it, but I can't get rid of my little Jimny. Have you got a Jimny? It'll go forever. Yeah. I bought it new, it's paid off, it's going to go forever. So I just got to keep that. Yeah. I got sick of having to go to get petrol. So we got an e-vehicle, which is... Did you? Yeah.

01:03:36
Did. And it's taken a little bit to get used to. Let me guess, you bought a Tesla because you've mined it as well, right? Does he? He's probably got a Model 3, we don't. But yeah, like, and it's actually been a little bit life-changing to not have to go to the petrol station to constantly fill up.

01:03:58
on petrol and then get aggrieved at the cost of petrol that tends to be rising, but seems to be rising every time you would go to the petrol station. I don't even look at the pump, or at least, and when I used to have my six litre Jeep, I did not look at the pump at all. I think I spend 80 bucks a month.

01:04:21
I guess that's nothing. So it's not much. No, no, totally not at all. If that, I don't even know if I've spent that to be honest. So here's an interesting thing, then, sort of circling back to some of the stuff I was saying. If public transport was just incredibly prolific, reliable, safe, affordable, what might that do to public health and nutrition steps? Yes. It would be certainly interesting. Just sort of multiple things, not solved,

01:04:51
by only focusing on one thing. Yep. And I think that is a really interesting example because I believe at least that it's a victim of looking at things in a very isolated fashion and having to have isolated profit centers. So you privatize public transport in Auckland and huge number of bus routes are cut because they're not efficient, they're not profitable.

01:05:19
But then my question is how does that then affect the overall economy? You know, it's not like in your business, every single element of it is a profit driver. It's not, because some of it's admin and some of it's other things that just need to be done. It's exactly the same in an economy, but people don't look at it that way. It's like, well, the buses need to be profitable, the trains need to be profitable. They don't necessarily. If it's driving better efficiencies across the board, that's a good thing. More importantly, if it's driving improved health and improved happiness, shouldn't that be a metric? We also look at

01:05:49
as part of our overall sort of national statistics. And I think going forward, we're gonna have to change the way we look at how we measure and quantify these things. Because I'm really concerned that we're, a lot of us are gonna be out of a job. Now, I know a lot of people are doomsayers in this respect, we all could be completely wrong, but I just can't see how a lot of people in the current environment are going to keep their jobs when AI can do it better.

01:06:17
Yeah, interesting. Some things are better done by people. But there are a lot of things that are better done by AI. And so there's going to be a massive problem with underemployment. How do we address that? Do we just allow for people to subsist, you know, make very little money and just eke along not being food secure, you know, because bots have taken over the jobs? I just don't think we can allow that to happen. Right. But to rectify it takes a massive revision of how we see

01:06:45
every component within the society and the economy. Which economies operate the way that you're describing, Cliff? In terms of... In terms of that not looking sort of individually in each component, but looking sort of across the board. Like, which economies, because I'm really ignorant about this, so I figure you're going to know that there's going to be... What is it? How the Scandinavian countries do it? Yeah, what's the go? Yeah. Typically, I mean, it tends to be those that are more...

01:07:14
socialist in respect to democratic socialism, you know, and not the democratic socialist republic of whatever, because obviously, we know that's just a cover for communism. But yeah, the Scandinavian countries, and I think any country that is more egalitarian, and that can be achieved in two ways. Obviously, you've got, you know, taxation, as you see in the Scandinavian countries, or as you see in countries like Japan, which is more egalitarian, surprisingly, than a

01:07:43
developed nations, it's through social pressure. So there is a social pressure to not have executives paid 300 times what your normal workers paid, as you see in the States. So where you see that, I think there's a lot more money that is put into the elements of social cohesion and transport is obviously a massive part of that. You know, in Auckland alone, I think getting on top of the public transport challenges would just have an enormous impact.

01:08:13
but it's difficult to do because of a whole range of things, particularly election cycles. People don't wanna spend a lot of money acutely because that's unpalatable for people and you're probably gonna find yourself voted out. I don't have any answers. I just basically proselytize and say things with no solution. So I'm probably part of the problem. Wouldn't it be amazing if some sort of billionaire, what is the word? Philanthropist. There you go, philanthropist.

01:08:43
went, right, here's $30 billion, Auckland Transport. This is what you can do with it. And actually, the money just appeared from nowhere. And then suddenly things were fixed. Because I can't see any huge changes in funding that will allow something like what you were sort of just funding to occur. It's funny, Miki, because I literally just said that to someone last week, that I knew, it was a sign that I must be getting old because that whole, what would you buy if you were a billionaire?

01:09:12
That's literally my fantasy is if I was a billionaire, I would sort out public transport. I'm not lying. Yeah. So yeah, I'm obviously getting a little bit too long in the tooth because that's what would give me the most pleasure. It also harks to your point, there's about cars. Do you know we're equal in the United States? This step blew my mind. On a per capita basis, cars per head of population.

01:09:42
First freaking equal. Wow. And as far as I know, and someone listening in could probably prove me wrong here, but from what I have seen in the past, I think we also are the worst along with Australia for throwing away electronic goods. So throwing away computers, phones, things like that. Both of which I think is interesting, because I think they both speak to the idea of satisfying as a solution to that. You guys know the.

01:10:11
idea of satisfying, it's an economic term. Yeah, yeah, define that for us. So it's basically that the concept that we're good enough is good enough, you don't need to go beyond that. So if your needs are being met, going beyond that is typically an ever, ever increasing sort of cascade, right? In which, you know, you get a new car and you want the the next better car. But if your car is serving all of your

01:10:40
needs. And we're not just talking about this, the sort of very functional necessities, but if it's filling you up, if it's enough, you know, to be congruent really with your ethos and values, at some point, you need to understand that the pursuit of the next better thing is trying to fill a void that you'll never fill. Yeah, right. So the idea of satisfying, I think is a really interesting one, because I think I believe at least that if people satisfy

01:11:10
their being and the way that they did things, we would have far lesser need for stuff. And that is potentially one of our biggest solutions to the problems we have. Yeah. You know, we throw away so much food, we throw away so many electronic goods, we buy so many things that sit unused. You know, when I was sponsored by a shoe company, I think I had something like 50 pairs of shoes. Wow.

01:11:37
It was wicked because I had all these cool shoes, but how often was I going to wear them? And when I moved back to New Zealand, I gave them all the way to homeless people, right? And that's not a virtuous thing. It's not because I'm like, oh, I'm giving away to homeless. It was more so that I thought, I can't take all these things back. I probably don't need them. So I'll just give them away, right?

01:11:58
And I haven't replaced them. And as you guys know, I seldom wear shoes anyway. I probably still have too many pairs of shoes because they've been accumulated because people have given them to me or whatever. Yeah. But I probably in any month would wear two pairs of shoes. Do you know, I know I understand that because I like, I love shoes and I feel sad to walk on by like platypus and see all these amazing shoes and go, it's just no point because right now I'm only wearing running shoes.

01:12:28
sometimes jandals and then my Nike frees. Like that legitimately are all, and maybe I bust out my sneaks for a night out. I mean, you know, white sneakers, not sneaks. I think though one element within that though is important is that if you really love shoes, like you're a sneaker head, I don't think there's a problem with that necessarily because I don't think most people are sneaker heads. Just like in the same way that if you do love a particular mark of car, like you love Mercedes or you love Porsche or whatever, and it's intrinsically driven,

01:12:58
get yourself a Porsche. But if you're buying that Porsche because you're trying to fill a void and you don't know what that void is, or you think that people are going to think you're cooler, smarter, more handsome, more attractive, whatever, maybe reevaluate things a little bit and figure out whether you really need that. Because to my mind, you know, if you're happy with a Toyota Corolla and you buy a Porsche, even if nothing else, you could have bought the Toyota Corolla and given all that extra money to charity.

01:13:27
Like that's probably going to be a better outcome at the end of the day. But it comes down to knowing what your ethos and values are. And there's no right or wrong, right? I'm not saying that you shouldn't buy a Porsche. I'm saying if you like it and it's intrinsically driven by the Porsche, if it's not, I'm trying to remember the guy who started wired, Cliff, um, he wrote a book around like sort of features, futurism, pitch projections. And it was like the drones would bring you clothes and you'd have your, your

01:13:56
measurements on file and he sort of like an extended Amazon is where we were going to go. So I was like, I need to go a wedding. Don't have a suit, but it's cool. You know, order one drone would drop it off, tailor to you, go to the wedding, put it back in your little receptacle in the backyard. Drone comes, picks it up, takes it back to the, uh, to the, to the warehouse and resizes it for the next person. And, uh, the same would go for the lawnmower that you rent once a, every 10 days, because you don't really need to own a lawnmower.

01:14:26
because it sits idle for nine of those 10, and so on and so on and so on. And we're seeing some of that with some of these car sharing things. And I know someone tried to start a tool, like a tool sharing platform in New Zealand, I think it was called Mutu or something like that. But I don't think it fired. I don't think it fired. It makes so much sense, but I'm sure there's that option to getting that critical mass. But certainly sharing stuff, you know, the way we used to, we talked a lot about the past.

01:14:55
that could be one interesting approach to having your cake and eating it too. Yeah, sure. Definitely. And yeah, and then the people who are, as you said, the true enthusiasts are going to be like, well, no, I want that Porsche for me and I keep it. But there's going to be less of them overall, which theoretically shouldn't make it such of an issue. Versus all of us wanting to keep everything, which is the electronic thing, I suppose. That shows that we were all on the electronic buzz. We've all got the phone, the computer,

01:15:24
checking out too soon. Yeah, because I think so much of that is perception based and we all know this, but you know, it's very easy to assume that, for example, a lot of the Chinese retailers are unethical. And it's probably true. But we don't always consider that, hey, a lot of the retail outlets we buy from here, they're getting this stuff from the same places. It's the same thing. Like, you'll know, Daz, remember the old story of when...

01:15:51
I won't say who it was, but we both know very well, fitness equipment suppliers who have been accidentally sent product from the factories in China that was stamped for another company that is supposedly like the gold standard, the US-based or Europe-based one or whatever. It's all made in the same place. You look at phones, try and buy an ethical phone and look at the ethical or ratings of ethics for these phone companies. You're not going to find one.

01:16:18
There is one company that makes ethical phones, but they're just not as high speed. So, you know, you're gonna sacrifice your upload time or your download time or your ability to watch this or that for a more ethical phone. Most people aren't gonna do that. Yeah. Yeah, I bought a new portafilter from a coffee machine from a New Zealand company and then saw, I saw it on Tmoo and the packaging was quite distinct. So I know it was that, I know it was that exact one.

01:16:46
it was on Temu for a tenth of the price. So they're obviously just bringing them in by the truckload from Temu and then selling them on. And you've got to get them from somewhere and just everyone's distributorship has been that way for a long time. But it's been open and honest and upfront about where it's all coming from and the markup perhaps. Hey, so guys, I'm mindful of your time. I do just want to ask a couple more questions because I'm sort of interested.

01:17:14
I don't even know what we've been talking about today. I had four hours sleep last night. We've just been going off. Did you know, right? But this is sort of why I wanted to have, like, I wasn't joking. Like, when I started this by saying it's just a good opportunity to catch up. And literally it is. Like, I'll just throw a couple of things in of thinking about, and I know that you guys can riff on whatever I, you know, what comes to mind for me, because we're often interested in the same things. But you're just far smarter than I am about it. So I learn a lot.

01:17:43
Personally though, probably just more vocal, maybe not smarter. Oh yeah, that's what I meant. Sorry. I didn't mean smarter. I meant louder. I'm more prepared to move outside of my lane. Yeah, which I quite like. So supplements wise, I have to confess I'm so terrible at supplements. I was so good for so long. Cliff, you counseled me on some really great things to get last year.

01:18:07
and we chatted on a podcast about me taking NAC the way that you do. I basically just copy you. And the res resel, I think from Thorne. I was taking a whole bunch of things, but literally right now I'm, I managed to remember to take my biotin because I take biotin and magnesium. And that's about as far as I get. I forget every other supplement. So where are you guys at with supplements?

01:18:37
Cliff, let's start with you. And then we can, and then Das will come back on and he can tell me about his supplements. Where are you at with your supplements there, Cliff? I know fish oils, obviously. Yeah, probably a little bit like you. I've cut back a bit just because I kind of wanted to reset and just get back to basics. You know, try and do a little bit more through food and, yeah, just, I started accumulating things. So I also get given quite a lot of products.

01:19:04
I'll be at a conference and I'll give a talk or whatever, and then everyone's giving me product to try. And so you try it out and then eventually you've got 15 things in your cupboard and you're just not using anything. So I'm just sticking to, I pretty much just supplement in the morning. I just have it all in my morning shake. It's just protein, greens, fish oil. And then after training, protein and creatine. So that's it. That's all I'm doing. Yeah. Yeah.

01:19:30
Alrighty. And Darren, you're back with us. What about you? What I don't think I've asked you about your supplement routine. Yeah, very similar to Cliff. And yeah, been through the whole gamut of trying everything and having a supplement cupboard a mile deep. And yeah, back to simplicity. Good greens vitality, creatine. I've been reworking collagen into the mix.

01:19:58
curious if there's any latest data on that stuff, but Cliff Jits, man, elbow tendinitis, I got turf toe, my fingers hurt. I think I jumped in a little bit too enthusiastically, so mostly myself to blame, but staying on top of that has been a big focus. So yeah, collagen is back in the mix. You'll be too strong for your own good, I think. Yeah, I try really hard not to overdo it. No, straight up. I use collagen too.

01:20:25
That's good to know. But yeah, so then I think we're the same. Fish oil, greens, creatine, collagen, and protein. That's the five. Yeah. All right. So I did actually forget to add that I obviously have protein and always have good greens, vitality, and actually have creatine as well. For some reason, I didn't think about them in terms of my supplements, though. I just sort of, I don't know why. I think they're just so ingrained into the idea that they're just part of my diet.

01:20:53
Interesting on that collagen thing, Darren, like you might find this, like not from a research perspective, but anecdotally, and Stu Phillips said this actually as well, that so many people say that having the collagen really helps their joints. So there's not much in the research about that, but that's something anecdotally. And interestingly, they- But there's a bit. But according to Stu, there was not that much about joint.

01:21:21
So I'm trying to think, I haven't seen much on joints actually though Cliff. I'll have to go back and look, but I'm, I think there is research, I think it's maybe not in general populations. There's certainly, um, information on inflammation and pain and people with osteoarthritis. Okay, cool. Do. Yeah, that'll be, that'll be good to know. Um, unless of course I've known that and forgotten it, which is possible, but no, I I'm sure that I would have remembered. Um, I saw there was a study last year,

01:21:51
where collagen helped with muscle protein synthesis. Like a study looked at collagen and that it helped increase muscle protein synthesis. Now, I don't know how that, I mean, obviously leucine is like the trigger for MPS, but it's not the main, it's not the story, it's not everything. So I was interested to see that. And Cliff, you nodded like you, that's not news to you either, which is great.

01:22:20
I don't think that's an old finding because I believe, again, I'll have to dig back into the research, but I have looked at this previously and I think that collagen has had an effect on muscle growth parameters before. But it's probably, it's not as good as other proteins. But to some degree, a protein is going to be a protein, right? Do you need more of it? Well, it just wouldn't do the job because it's not as high in some of those essential amino acids. So, you know, we wouldn't take it for that purpose. But...

01:22:49
If people are taking a bit of collagen or having some bone broth or whatever, it's not like it's not going to help across their total protein balance for the day. I think that's where people misunderstand it. It's like, well, it's not as good a protein for muscle growth, therefore it's useless. So it's just not as good. In the same way that people say, well, plant-based proteins aren't as good. Maybe marginally, but the reality is if you're getting enough protein across the day... You're right.

01:23:14
and you're well within that range, then it's probably not going to make much difference whatsoever. Yeah. And again, it just comes down to being pragmatic, right? This absolutism, you know, coffee's toxic. No, it's not. The dose is in the poison. You know, alcohol is toxic. Well, yes, it is, but the dose is in the poison. You know, plant protein sucks. Well, no, it doesn't. It just might not be quite as good for those parameters of muscle growth as an animal-based protein.

01:23:43
At the end of the day, I mean, geez, just people need to stop polarizing things so much. I couldn't resist the other day doing an invisible smoothie reel where it was like me talking to myself as two different people and it was like holding up ingredients. Then my friend was the snooty person reading too much research and was like, oh, bananas are bad, berries are bad, spinach has oxalic acid.

01:24:12
and eventually it was a glass of nothing. You just can't win. Exactly. Do you know what though? I think people love majoring in the minors, don't they? Because then, and this is this, I'm going to be blunt, but majoring in the minors gives people that break on doing nothing at all. They're like, you know, it's like, oh no, I'm so overwhelmed because I'm told these, you know, 10 different things. And then they don't bother, they don't actually bother reading any material from anything that you might.

01:24:41
provide them. They're constantly offering up objections as to why something's not going to work for them. They've switched their brain off. And then it just gives them another excuse for something else not to work or for them not to make change. That's a bit blunt, but that's how I see it. And there's so much hypocrisy when we start to fall into those traps, particularly from an influencer point of view. I'll give you a couple of examples. I've seen an influencer pretty well known, pretty well qualified.

01:25:12
very hot on the topic of, you know, sugar's not that big a deal. Within the context of a healthy diet, if you're having some added sugar, having some foods, processed foods with sugar, and it's not a big deal, I agree entirely. But then that same person is saying, oh, but saturated fat is associated with higher LDL, it is associated with heart disease, you know. And I'm saying, oh, hold on, well, that's not congruent. Because if you're saying that about sugar, which I agree with, you have to say the same about saturated fat.

01:25:39
within the context of a healthy diet and lifestyle, it's probably not an issue. What was the other example? I forget now, but that was a good enough example anyway. That's a good enough, I never talked about, yeah. Influences hammering Huberman, I understand why they do it, right? But Influences hammering Huberman for promoting a particular multi. And you know, saying it's just spruiking a supplement, blah, blah, blah. But then also in other posts saying, well,

01:26:07
If I had to recommend one supplement would probably be a multi. Well, where's the congruence there? What I think they're actually saying is that the supplement that he promotes is more expensive. But if that means the supplement that you're potentially promoting or what you're suggesting to people as they go and get a cheap multi, I certainly wouldn't agree with that because I think that very few people understand the difference in forms of the ingredients.

01:26:34
forms of the various vitamins and minerals, whether they're absorbable, whether they're usable, et cetera. And so it just doesn't seem like it's entirely congruent, right, to sort of have one message and then promote it with a hypocritical message or something that's very similar, but yeah, tirade over.

01:26:53
That's great. Something else, the last question actually, the last question because I, and you guys have families to get back to, et cetera. What are we eating right now? What's our favorite food? Not what are we eating? So I sort of know what you're going there, but any faves on the menu right now that you're just hammering? Burger bowls. Oh, I love a burger bowl. Yeah, I'm digging burger bowl. Come back to what Cliff said earlier about that summery crunch.

01:27:21
of veggies. I can't do salad in the winter. I try. It just never really takes. But now that we're in the middle of summer and got a nice big shiny barbecue, so that's in use on a regular basis. And yeah, putting together these massive burger patties. And then yeah, it's a... Max, you said big ass. Was it a big ass salad? Yeah. Just anything I can find in that thing. And it's just... I use an actual...

01:27:50
I don't know if it's like a five liter mixing bowl. That's my salad bowl. So I can get more in. And I use scissors to chop the, yeah, I chop the leaves up with scissors so that it sits down a little lower and I can fit more in. Nice one. I do that too. I cut my leaves up. Need to. I'm not the only one. No, no. What about you, Cliff? What's your? This isn't something that's now, this is probably consistent through my life. If I ever need to default to something, it's sausages.

01:28:19
Oh, I bloody love a sausage. I love sausages. I love sausages and bread. I love sausages with salad. I love sausages with mash of all sorts of types. I love sausages with sauerkraut. And I just love a bloody sausage. Sounds like a Dr. Seuss book. Dr. Seuss-age. Amazing. New Zealand has crap sausages, I'm going to say it out loud. Overall, like on average.

01:28:47
Compared to America, I reckon, which you can get the worst food in the world, right, Mickey? But oh my gosh, you've really got to read the label or you end up with this sort of 60 something percent meat sausage so easily. And that's in their premium, da da da, all the labeling. It's so hard to find something that's kind of on that 80 plus range. That's a big rant for me because I'm so into your lava saucy and I just want some people to put some good ingredients in there.

01:29:16
And that's a fair call. What's your go-to brand? I don't even remember. We sort of shop around online for good deals. So I couldn't even give you a brand off the top of my head, but we do look at that. We try and look at sausages that are predominantly, almost entirely meat wherever possible. I'm gonna say Frank's is one variety, and Le Authentique, I don't think I've said that correctly, but that's another brand which is basically just

01:29:46
Just meat, love it. Although I am partial to a spicy chorizo Woolworth sausage, actually. Quite delicious. Slumber that, Nikki. Hey, do you know what? In fact, one of the reasons why I know that I like them is because I often see them with the yellow sticker on them and I'm like, oh, cheap, I'm going to get them. With anything, when I go to the supermarket and that meat aisle, if it's got that yellow sticker, I am looking hard. I'm going, how much am I saving here? Oh yeah.

01:30:15
That's because protein, healthy food is not cheap, people. So do what you can to save. Yeah. Harmony, I think. I think we do the harmony ones as a default. Yeah. But yeah, still looking for that market leader. Hey guys, always appreciate your time. Thank you so much for making yourselves available to join me for this morning.

01:30:39
And I know that people will know where they can find you, but I'm also, I'm just going to get you guys to reel off that information again. Darren, where can people find you? Darrenales.coach, everywhere, website, Instagram. Amazing. Ancliffe. Nice. Best place is the Holistic Performance Institute, which is just holi Nice one.

01:31:06
And you're not gonna be public about your, what about Cliffy Dog? That's been a little bit more active of late. Oh, people can follow me on Instagram at Cliff Doggy Dog, but pretty much everything I do. It's because I'm not really doing much outside of the teaching now. So it's all about the students and the institute. So that's what I'm doing. Katie and I caught up actually earlier this week and she was like, how's Cliff going? She's like, God, if only we had his course when we were.

01:31:35
We were learning nutrition. She's like, every time I get contacted by an up and coming nutritionist, I send them Cliff's way because that is a great course. So, you know. That's wicked. Yeah, it's very well revered across the professionals. You know, lots of other people like us, Cliff. So I love that, it's awesome. Kudos, thanks Katie. All right, team. Well, hey, we will wrap this up and I'll let you know when this comes out.

01:32:04
We'll do this again sometime. It's gonna need some heavy editing I reckon this one. Oh, maybe. Barry's gonna have his work cut out. He'll be like. Rough and ready, great to see you again. Actually what will happen is Barry will be like, oh fuck that cliff, I actually had to edit everything out so it's only a half hour conversation between you and Daz. I wouldn't be concerned about that at all. That would be completely okay today. All right team, catch ya. See you guys, bye. See ya.

01:32:42
already team.

01:32:43
Hopefully you enjoyed that conversation. We could talk for hours actually, because you can just go down so many tangents, go into different rabbit holes, et cetera, but we managed to keep it not too long for you this time. So, as I said, you can find links to both Darren and Cliff in the show notes. And next week on the podcast, I have the pleasure of talking to Marco Altini about heart rate variability. Really great conversation.

01:33:13
sure you tune into that next Wednesday. Until then though you can catch me over on Instagram, Twitter and threads @mikkiwilliden, Facebook @mikkiwillidennutrition or head to my website mikkiwilliden.com and book a one on one call with me. Alright team, have the best week, see you later.