Transcribed using AI technology, errors may occur; contact Mikki for clarification.

00:03
Hey everyone, it's Mikki here. You're listening to a Mikkipedia, and this week on the podcast, I speak to Melissa Urban. For those of you who might have been living under a rock for the last 15 years, Melissa is the founder of the Whole30 program. And her and I speak today on the podcast about the new Whole30 program and how it has evolved over the last 14 years. We chat about how

00:31
The emerging science has led to major rule changes in the programme and we detail out what these changes are. The new Whole30 programme has actually just been released on August 6th, so that's a day before this podcast was released. In addition to this, Melissa also shares how she has changed and why this was a fundamental piece of making a lot of other changes to the programme.

01:00
allowing her to better understand an individual's experience when embarking on the Whole30 program. So we talk a lot about how even the language in the book has changed to reflect how Melissa herself has changed. We also discuss her amazing book, The Book of Boundaries, and how her work in Whole30 helping people navigate their diet experience out in the world gave her insights into the challenges that people have in.

01:29
standing up for themselves, communicating their needs in a way that makes them feel confident and empowered. And of course this extends far beyond just food and that's a lot of what we also talk about in addition to just other life and Melissa's stuff. I really enjoyed this conversation. I have loved Melissa forever since I discovered the Paleo diet and the major trailblazers in this space which of course Melissa was.

01:58
So Melissa Urban is the Whole30 co-founder and CEO and an authority on helping people change their relationship with food, set boundaries and create lifelong healthy habits. After overcoming a five-year drug addiction in the year 2000, she adopted a growth mindset, dove into fitness and began to study nutrition. In 2009, she self-designed a 30-day diet experiment and saw unexpected and life-changing.

02:27
physical, mental and emotional benefits. A few months later, she blogged about the experiment and invited her readers to give it a try, calling the program The Whole 30. 15 years later, and Whole 30 is a household name featuring partnerships with Chipotle, Whole Foods, La Croix and Applegate, and eight Whole 30 books, now nine actually. Melissa is a seven time New York Times bestselling author.

02:56
has been featured by numerous shows in America, including The Today Show, Good Morning America, and publications like The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal. And she ranked number 13 on 2023's Top 100 Most Influential People in Wellness. Melissa has presented more than 150 health and nutrition seminars worldwide, and is a prominent keynote speaker on boundaries, building community, health trends, and entrepreneurship. And...

03:25
You'll get a sense of this from Melissa in our interview. Plus also, just when you follow her on Instagram, she's so transparent, genuine, and real, it's hard not to love her. Before we kick off into the conversation, I would like to remind you that the best way to support this podcast is to hit the subscribe button on your favorite podcast listening platform.

03:46
This increases the visibility of Micropedia in amongst literally thousands of other podcasts that are out there. So more people get to learn from people that I have on the show, like today's guest, Melissa. All right, team, hope you enjoy this conversation. Melissa, thank you so much for taking time to speak to me this afternoon about the Whole30, the evolution of the program, and of course, Boundaries as well, which...

04:14
I'm super interested in too. And you know, you're such a good educator. You are so good at providing us with a blueprint, if you like, in so many areas of our lives and helping us navigate those hard conversations that we find ourselves sort of needing to have or wanting to have. And also, of course, to help us take ownership for our decisions. And I think that's just, it's a really powerful place to sort of put yourself, I suppose.

04:44
Who inspires you? Oh, what a good question that is. First of all, thank you for the kind words. Those are all, that's a really lovely thing to say and I'm so glad that that's how you're experiencing me. I've had some pretty amazing mentors along the way, I think. You know, bosses, my first boss back in my last nine to five job whose name was Tom and my dad's name is Tom. So I kind of called him like second dad, Tom.

05:10
He taught me a lot about communication and talking to people the way that they want to be spoken to and about how to sort of navigate boundaries in the world of, you know, the professional world and my career. I had a professor in college when I got out of rehab and went back to school who taught an organizational behavior class and taught me so much about my personality type and how to communicate with people with different personality types. And I feel like really

05:39
helped me get started in my professional career. I follow a lot of people on Instagram that I really look up to, and I admire the way that they communicate and take accountability and share their lives vulnerably with others. So I think I'm inspired by a lot of people. And I try to pull what I like and what I feel I can authentically ingrain into my own life and just kind of leave the rest.

06:05
Yeah, you do such an amazing job. I do remember a post you put up last year sometime and you talked about how difficult you used to find or not difficult. It was more, you didn't feel it was necessary to share a lot about yourself on like your personal life on Instagram, but that has changed for you over the years. And certainly as a long term follower, I've certainly noticed that and really appreciated the amount of yourself that you share. Because then

06:34
you're just so much more relatable, I suppose, to all of us. Like I think a lot of us who, most of us who follow you, follow you probably for that reason, is that we can see insights into how we might approach something because of how you deal with things. I appreciate that. There was a period in my life, my whole 30 life, in the earlier days where it wasn't like that. I felt like I had to show up perfectly for people to take me seriously and to feel like I had deserved this role that I was now in.

07:04
I was very unhappy in my personal life, so I felt like I had to sort of cover up and wear a mask. I wouldn't talk about things that I considered superfluous, right? I would put this big post out about the latest research or the science, and I really wanted to be taken seriously. People would make a comment about my hair. They loved my hair. They really liked my nail color. I would...

07:27
from a place of just such insecurity, I would say, I don't want to talk about that. I only want to talk about serious things because I felt like if I did talk about my hair or my nails, or, you know, any other sort of like lighthearted fun ways of connecting, that people wouldn't think that I deserved to be in the role that I was in and that they wouldn't think I was worthy of it. And after a lot of really big personal changes in my life and a lot of therapy,

07:51
I started realizing that I had become an imposter in my own life. I couldn't even live up to my own standards of perfection and it was exhausting and it didn't feel like me. And so I started to talk about all of those things and I realized that I could connect with people on so many different levels, whether we were talking about the latest science or their trauma or hair and nail polish and all of it felt good and all of it was connection. And so I really enjoy the space that I'm in right now where, you know, we talk about it all. Yeah.

08:21
I know, and I love being there for it as well. Now, interesting, you're a woman clearly of many talents, but is raising one eyebrow not one of them? Can you not do that? No, I don't think that I can. I can't even believe it. And also, I have enough Botox, I think, that that is not in my future. At this point, I feel like I just got it done, so I do still have some motion, but I've tried. I feel like I would really rock the one eyebrow look, and it's just not in my genetics.

08:50
That's a shame. That was, and I feel your pain actually, because it is like, it's quite a skill, it's quite helpful and useful at certain times. But you know, you've, I've heard you describe, you've got quite a background, I think, and you can relate to people on a number of levels because of what you've experienced in your life. And there are so many...

09:12
podcasts and you talk about it in your book of boundaries. And so the information is there for people to be able to absorb. And we're probably not going to go into too much detail specifically about that today. But what I was interested to hear you say is that it took, I guess you had to be in a right place to write a different version or a new and updated version of the Whole

09:41
We're talking about that. It's almost like your evolution was required in order to sort of evolve the program further. Did I get that right, Melissa? Absolutely, yeah, 100%. I mean, so to give some background quickly, the Whole30, which was the flagship book for the program, it was like the how-to manual, was I wrote it in 2014 and it was published in 2015. So that was nine years ago.

10:04
And the information in that book still holds up. It's an excellent program. People are still using it today. They're still finding great success with the program. But I had known for a few years that I wanted to update that book. You know, science changes, our food landscape has changed. We added a new plant-based Whole30 program. There were a lot of updates I wanted to make to the book. And around 2020, the five-year mark, I started talking with my agent about updating it. And I'm not a procrastinator at all. I like, if I have a project that I wanna get done, I get it done.

10:34
I'm not a leave it to the last minute person, but I didn't start updating that book, even though I was talking about wanting to do it. And usually when that happens, it's because there is some subtle way the universe is sort of guiding me towards like, oh, you need to wait. You need to wait on this. And I'm so glad that I did, because when I sat down to write the new Whole30 about a year and a half ago, I realized that the book didn't need an update. It needed a completely new rewrite. And that was because I had undergone such an evolution

11:02
in the way I talked to myself, in the way that I showed empathy for myself, in my understanding of my own privilege, in the way that I walk through the world and how it is by default easier than others just because of the way I was born. And there were so many things that I wrote in 2015 that I looked back on now and I say to myself, I would not have said it that way. In fact, there are some things where I'm like, I wish I hadn't said it that way. And I needed those extra few years to learn more, to get to a better understanding myself

11:32
And to, I think, kind of bring all of that evolution and all of those changes into the new Whole30. So yeah, all of that was necessary and it took as long as it needed to take. Yeah, nice one. And you know, I haven't seen the book yet because it's not released until August the 6th, of which this podcast will be released after the release of the book. So that's exciting. I've seen the previews on your Instagram, of course.

12:00
Can you, for the listeners, just sort of remind them the premise of The Whole 30 in case anyone is unfamiliar? And then I just wanna ask you a few questions on it. Yeah, sure. So The Whole 30 is an elimination and reintroduction program designed to help identify hidden food sensitivities, create new habits around food and eating and navigating stress and anxiety and negative emotions, and restoring a healthy relationship with food and your body.

12:28
So it's not a weight loss diet, it's not a detox, it's not a cleanse, it is a true elimination program, which have been around since the 1920s, and many consider still the gold standard for identifying food sensitivities. And it's designed to help you create a blueprint for the foods that work best for you in your unique body. So you can then take that knowledge and use it to build your long-term, joyful, sustainable, what we call food freedom plan for the rest of your life.

12:57
Yeah, that's so good. And do you know, I always, it makes me laugh and rolls me up at the same time when I read this, it's at the US weekly every year in January, they publish their, you know, top 30 diets or whatever, and you're always going to find the dash in the Mediterranean is going to be number one or two. And then Paleo, ketogenic and the whole 30 seem to be right down in those sort of late sort of 20s, if not like bringing up the rear. And I just.

13:24
It frustrates me so much because when I look at a plan like the Whole30 in its sort of previous version, it was just such a complete diet plan. And it was so apparent from the way that the book was written that it certainly wasn't a forever diet for everyone. You know, it was always about that investigation. And I felt like people who...

13:47
may have had an opportunity to use a Whole30 might have been influenced by what the US Weekly had said and would have completely dismissed it. I mean, I know. Yeah, it must have frustrated you more because of course you're the owner of it. They actually just emailed me today, Miki, because they're like, hey, our January 2025 article is coming out and we want to do some fact checking.

14:08
So this is US News and World Report's best weight loss diet rankings. And historically, Whole30 has always ranked dead last, which I'm always like, should I be proud that we're last because we're not a weight loss diet? So like, great, we're not accomplishing this mission that we did not set out to accomplish. Or should I be frustrated? And in fact, I think it was two years ago, we finally, after dialoguing with their journalist, got them to remove us from the ranking altogether because they finally said,

14:36
Oh yeah, I guess you're not a weight loss diet. So we probably shouldn't rank you. So they do still have an explanation of Whole30, but it's no longer ranked in that fashion. But it is somewhat frustrating in that all we have known for such a long time historically is weight loss dieting. If you change the food you put on your plate, people assume it's because you want to lose weight and make yourself smaller. And that's because the diet industry and diet culture has taught us that that's all we really need to value. So when a program like Whole30 comes along that doesn't neatly fit into that

15:06
change the way you eat, get smaller mold. And we talk about things like non-scale victories and you don't step on the scale and you don't restrict calories or portions on the program. Media doesn't really know what to do with us, but they know that weight loss is still a multi-billion dollar industry. So they tend to just like lump us under that headline. And sometimes I'm like, okay, I guess, you know, some press is better press than if people come to us through that and then they see we're not a weight loss.

15:32
diet, then they're going to get all of the other things that the Whole30 can bring. But then sometimes I just, I'm frustrated because I'm like, can you just get a little more nuanced here with your coverage of what we do? Oh, totally. And I can imagine it depends on the day and how you're feeling and how much sleep you've had and anything else that's going on, right? Yeah. So the original plan sort of leaned on those paleo diet principles, which I think give us so much insight into how we've evolved to eat and the types of foods that we eat.

16:01
can tolerate, but of course humans are resilient and there are many things that we can do, we can eat now that wouldn't have been available back in prehistoric times, I suppose. So you've got the plant-based version of the Whole30, which has been around for a couple of years. Melissa, was there pushback for you when you decided to sort of produce that from, I don't know, other people in your space? No, not at all, actually. In fact, it was met with...

16:29
remarkable welcome and almost a sense of relief because there had been a lot of people who either wanted to explore a more plant-based diet or who were already plant-based or vegetarian or vegan and who wanted to be part of the Whole30 community and go through our elimination and reintroduction protocol. But you couldn't do that if you didn't eat animal protein before the plant-based Whole30. And while we had always offered some resources for people who were vegetarian or vegan who wanted to do the Whole30,

16:57
There was always this sort of, I always kind of carried this attitude, especially in my earlier books of like, here are some resources, here are some ways that you can participate in the community. You are more than welcome in this community, but also maybe you should try eating meat. And that was an example of kind of one of the pieces of, I think evolution that I've gone through is, I used to be a vegetarian. When I started eating meat again, when I was working out and my body started craving it, I immediately felt so much better.

17:23
And it gave me so much more energy for my workouts. And so I thought, I bet everybody would be healthier if they ate meat. And that bias really came through in the way I talked about the program back in 2012 and 2013. So again, I have evolved, I've come to understand that there is no one size fits all. And there are many people that, many reasons that people might want to eat a plant-based diet.

17:43
And so we started working on a plant-based Whole30 in 2020 and rolled it out in 2022 to great fanfare. And I think people love that it gives them more inclusivity, better accessibility. And for people who have done the original Whole30, it gives them a proven framework to test how well a plant-based approach works for them and their body. And we see a lot of people using it that way. Yeah, that's amazing. And I think that you put a recent reel up about the changes in your language with how you even describe the program from

18:12
the fact that these foods will trigger inflammation to these foods may trigger inflammation or actually why don't you find out how these foods impact you? So I suppose that's just a broadening of that as well. It is. You mentioned earlier that in the earliest iteration of Whole30, like the 2009-2010 iteration, it was based on the framework of a paleo diet. And that's because the nutrition seminars we had attended that inspired the 30-day self-experiment.

18:39
And the crowd that we were running in were big proponents of a paleo diet. And so you'll find in my first book a lot of argument, or at least some argument, around the fact that, you know, historically maybe this is how our ancestors ate. Starting in about 2012, 2013, we kind of dropped that. That sort of went out the window. And now it became, let's take a look at the research that demonstrates foods that are commonly problematic to varying degrees. And while there is some overlap...

19:07
It's not a sort of one-to-one ratio. However, in the earliest days, what I would have said is that these foods are inflammatory and you would probably better off if you just didn't eat these foods, grains, legumes, dairy. Nobody needs to eat them for health. You can get all of the fiber and micronutrition you need from other foods like vegetables and fruit, and you're probably better off if you don't eat those foods. And...

19:31
Again, over the last nine, 10 years, I've had an enormous evolution in my understanding of the science, my evolution of the psychology of eating and food and our bodies and diet culture. And, you know, now it's very, very clear to me that these foods can be problematic, but not for everybody. And you won't know if they're problematic for you until you eliminate and reintroduce. And that experience is just as valuable if you discover those foods do work well for you.

19:59
then you should keep eating them because there's no reason to eliminate a food that works really well in your system. So it's very much a paradigm shift away from, this is how we think people should eat, to this is a tool to discover the foods that work best for you and everybody is gonna discover those things differently. And based on your experience, you wanna keep your diet as broad and varied as possible.

20:23
in a way that still keeps you feeling as good as you want to feel. Yeah, that's so good, Melissa. And I imagine that when you, because obviously I know that you have it independently sort of reviewed by registered dieticians and other sort of independent experts. Like, in fact, did you have any pushback this time around with the editing process on some of the things that the whole 30 sort of lays out? Or was it much more accepted as actually, you know, this is, you know, the science clearly shows us so we're in line. I'm

20:51
always going to have pushback because nobody even, even though I'll give you an example, one of the rule changes we're making in this new iteration is that no cooking oil is off limits in the program, regardless of the source. So historically, if the cooking oil was derived from a grain or a legume, so soybean oil, corn oil, peanut oil, rice bran oil, it was out for the duration of the program simply because we eliminated grains and legumes.

21:21
You know, we did and employed some independent researchers and did a two year project looking at the research specifically on polyunsaturated fats from seed oils or vegetable oils. And the common, I think, understanding with influencer culture right now is that these seed oils are inflammatory and toxic. And to my surprise, the research and we've got really high quality research in this area and a lot of it, we've got randomized control trials, we've got meta-analyses of randomized control trials.

21:50
We've got meta-analyses of observational studies that all confirm kind of the same findings. So like it's solid science. Polyunsaturated fats, especially in the context of a whole food diet, like the Whole30, especially in the context of healthy omega-3 fats in the diet, like the kind you would find on a Whole30, if you don't fry with them at super high heat or reheat them, especially when you replace saturated fat with these polyunsaturated fats can actually be health-promoting. They can reduce your risk of cardiovascular disease. And...

22:20
the science is really, really clear on it. However, when I sent this to a few medical doctors and a few other folks on our advisory board, yeah, I got some pushback because the common understanding of these seed oils for many, many years, and I say understanding and quotey fingers, is that they are inflammatory. So even though to me the research is very clear and to my researchers and to a few of the medical doctors I sent it out to, the research is very clear and well-defined.

22:47
I did get pushback and I'll still get pushback. I'm still getting pushback on the MSG rule change that we made in 2021. Because again, people think they know that MSG is really toxic and problematic. And I think it's gonna take people awhile to come around kind of like to the idea, we all thought butter was just gonna like kill you dead on the spot. And then Time Magazine ran an article about how butter could actually be like.

23:13
healthy part of a varied diet. And I think it's just gonna take people a while to come along, but I'm never gonna get a unanimous yes on things, except for maybe the idea that like we eliminate alcohol for 30 days. There aren't a lot of people who say like, oh, I don't understand why you do that. Otherwise, you know, it's tough. It's tough when you're reviewing the science and people have their own biases and interpretations. Yeah, I totally agree. And it's interesting on that. You're right, every sort of

23:42
category of food or whatever seems to have its day in terms of its potential impact on diet and certainly the seed oil one I see all over sort of social media. Whereas as I understand it and it's the, where people predominantly get their seed oils from tends to be in a lot of processed food, which has with it the starch and the sugar and things which can really impact on those inflammatory pathways. I don't know. But again, that seems to be an opinion.

24:12
Mostly people when they're citing the seed oils are toxic and inflammatory trope, they're citing either mechanistic studies, which are studies that kind of happen out mostly outside of the human body and don't necessarily reflect what happens in the body and certainly don't reflect risk in the body, which is what we really care about, right? Or observational studies where there are always a ton of confounding factors. You also have a lot of personal anecdotes, like people saying,

24:42
lost weight and all of my biomarkers got better. And it's like, okay, but by giving up seed oils, are you also giving up ultra processed foods, which via a variety of mechanisms, the calories, the sugar, the sodium, the hyperpallitability, the over consumption via a variety of mechanisms have been demonstrated to contribute to all cause mortality and make you less healthy. So,

25:09
it's not as easy as saying it is 100% the seed oils. And the science is actually really clear that inherently they are not inflammatory. But there does need to be context and nuance in this discussion. If your consumption of seed oils comes primarily from ultra processed foods, that's a very different context than cooking your whole 30 meals with a splash of canola at home. Right? And that's the kind of nuance we need to have in these conversations. But that's not as sexy a conversation as an influencer.

25:38
in the middle of a grocery store screaming about how seed oils are toxic? Particularly if you're shirtless. That gets a lot of views in a lot of places. Yeah. Yes, that's correct. Yeah. Do I need to start doing that, Miki, in the middle of sprouts? Do I need to take my top off and start yelling about nuance and context? Possibly, actually. Let's find out. Yeah. So, Melissa, just with regards to the program, obviously the seed oils is one rule change. What else can people expect?

26:07
So there are two other rule changes that you'll find in the book around additives in the program. They're relatively small around carrageenan and sulfites. But again, when I looked at the research in 2012, it seemed as though these foods could be problematic enough that we would want people to eliminate them. And after evaluating 10 more years of science and research, it's like, nah, they're not really, not for the general population, not to the degree that we need to really worry about having them in the ingredient list. So we've made that change.

26:36
There are some very small changes to the pancake rule, just to kind of, I think, better reflect our current food landscape. When I originally wrote the pancake rule for the Whole 30, cauliflower did not know that it could become pizza crust and pretzels and tortilla shells and, you know, cauliflower is really how to glow up. So we needed to better reflect.

26:57
language that kind of embrace the spirit and intention of the program. I don't necessarily think that people would have a wonderful experience on the Whole30 if they kept eating potato chips fried in avocado oil for the duration of their program, but I have no problem if people want to go buy some store-bought kale chips or apple chips. So we kind of tightened up some of the language there. You'll also find more realistic and practical recommendations around things like snacking and smoothies.

27:26
In earlier days of Whole30, I was very dogmatic about the idea that, you know, for your digestion, you shouldn't snack. You should just have three to four meals a day and wait at least three, four or five hours between meals. And practically, that's a great recommendation. And if you can do that, I think that's wonderful. But I've come to realize that that's not a lot of people's lived experience. If you have, you know, a different or an unpredictable work schedule, or you care for kids, or...

27:52
you're a student or you work nights or you're an athlete or active. There are so many reasons why people may want or need to include mini meals throughout their day. So in this book, I'm going to give people better recommendations about when and how to include them in a way that actually tides them over and promotes satiety and balanced blood sugar regulation. So I think what people will find is just a far more accessible, realistic and practical version of the Whole30, even though the rules and the structure of the program have not changed much.

28:20
Yeah, that sounds really great. And it really reflects, I think, just that you as in your role as sort of educator, I suppose, I don't know if you love that term, but it's just how I sort of see you, like, because that's what I see you do basically every day on Instagram, but that you evolve, as your understanding evolves, you have the confidence to change your opinion, you know, and based on current research, whereas so many people who are in

28:49
new information sort of will die on the hill that they're known for. So it's really nice to see that and understand that you're not one of these people, I think. I think it would be weird and make me untrustworthy if I did not change my opinion based on new information, if I did not evolve, if I didn't change. And I don't think I would like myself very much.

29:13
If I just tried to gloss over the mistakes that I've made in the past and pretend like they didn't exist and just sort of move on and talk about what I'm doing now, it was really important to me in this book. And you'll find more than a few places where I say, I got it wrong. And I'm really sorry, because I'm betting the way that I said this turned a lot of people off. And that is completely antithetical to my mission of, of having as many people as possible succeed with the Whole30. And I'm really grateful to my editors at Penguin Random House.

29:41
for letting me be vulnerable in a nutrition book. You know, they really let me share pieces of my story along the way that I felt were really important to share with my community and to anyone new who maybe looked at the Whole30 back then and thought, oh, this is not for me. She is not for me. So, you know, it was important to me to do that. I saw your reel of your sort of unveiling of the first printed copies of the book and it looks...

30:08
amazing and the recipes look great and the way that it has sort of been divided into the whole 30, that's it there, yep totally. And then also the plant based section and you've made it so super simple for people. So I cannot wait to actually see what it looks like in real life I suppose.

30:27
I know it's beautiful. I'm trying to work with my publisher now to be like, where can people in Australia and New Zealand buy it? Because I have UK links now, but you got to get me Australia and New Zealand. So I'll have that for you as soon as possible. Amazing. Because it used to be Book Depository, which was this amazing place from the UK that did free shipping worldwide. I know post-COVID though, was unfortunately one of those casualties. I know. COVID ruined everything. It really did. It did.

30:53
Obviously, food is one aspect of people's experience. I know that the whole 30, its premise was it starts with food. From food, we can develop, it's really transformational, I suppose. I definitely find that when people are eating in a way that really optimises their health and they start to thrive, then it can actually change how they then interact in other situations and changes how they...

31:22
see themselves, they build confidence and then they're able to tackle hard conversations or harder conversations as well. It's a very long winded way of me saying, I really love your book of boundaries, Melissa. And interestingly, I think I was thinking about when people think of you, probably they think it's always come easy to you. You're obviously a woman who has...

31:48
always had confidence and you know, it's very easy for you to be very forthright. But it hasn't always been like that for you, has it? No, I mean, of course not. You know, I spent five years addicted to drugs in my 20s after experiencing some sexual abuse at age 16. I took two different stints in recovery to make it stick, two stints in rehab to make it stick.

32:15
I got out of rehab the second time feeling absolutely worthless and I had no value and I was completely unlovable. It was probably the lowest point in my life and I certainly had no boundaries. And I think that's a big part of why my rehab the first time didn't stick is that I never advocated for myself because I didn't feel like I was worthy of advocating for myself. And so friends would use drugs around me or they'd bring drugs into the house or they'd offer them to me. And I would

32:44
not do anything. I wouldn't set any limits. My dog is so needy right now. I apologize. He is like, Henry is down here just banging my arm for affection, buddy. Come on, calm down. So no, you know, it took, I think out of necessity in my recovery, the second time around, I set an honest to God boundary when I found myself in a situation I didn't belong in. And I said, like, I can't be here. I need to leave. And it really opened my eyes up to the fact that first of all, no one's going to advocate for me, but me.

33:11
Second of all, this was a literal life and death situation. If I did not do this, I probably wouldn't make it back a third time. And third, people actually responded better than I thought they would. And if they didn't, that was a really great sign that I didn't need this person in my life at this stage. So I learned some really valuable lessons. I learned how to stick up for myself. I learned how to speak directly. And I think, you know, I had the benefit, I guess, of it being a life or death experience where I didn't have the option of not doing that.

33:41
But then that sort of carried its way through the rest of my life. And I found that being direct and being clear made all my conversations easier. It made my relationship smoother. Everybody knew what they could expect from me and vice versa. And it really like eased things. So it didn't come easy. It took a lot of practice. I still sometimes have to psych myself up to set a hard boundary, but it gets easier with practice for sure. And it really does make everything in your life so much easier. Yeah. And did your...

34:09
That sort of Whole30 experience, I suppose, connecting with people on that food level, increase your, I guess your desire to help other people with the boundaries problem. Like, you know, food and making good decisions around food are often impacted by the situation or the setting and us wanting to people please. So is that how you sort of started thinking, actually, I could help people a lot in this space?

34:39
Well, you know, so the Whole30 was a two-person self experiment that went really well and was very life-changing for me. And then when I shared about it, it went very well for the 100 people who chose to do it at the time. And that's how it kind of turned into a thing. But in the earliest days of Whole30, when I was helping to lead people through the program, I was really surprised at how hard it was for people to say no around food or drink.

35:05
They struggled to say no at happy hour to the birthday cake at the birthday party to the pizza at you know their office in their office break room And I was really surprised by that because I didn't have a hard time saying no to that and I quickly realized that other People did so I helped them find the language to say no around those things and really When you're thinking about the concept of boundaries or limits setting limits around the foods or drinks that you

35:30
consume is like a really good entry point because nobody is going to make you eat the birthday cake. You have control over what goes into your mouth. You have control over whether you accept it or not. And it can be deeply uncomfortable to say no in the face of peer pressure. But ultimately you have the power to hold that boundary. So I kind of think of the Whole30 a little bit like a boundary boot camp where it's like, okay, you're going to say no to food and drink and the name of this goal that you've set. If all else fails, fail back on, I can't, I'm doing the Whole30.

35:59
right? And that just sort of takes some pressure off. But then once people figured out that I was good at helping them say no to food or drink, they started bringing other things to me. What do I do about my mother-in-law who's always dropping by without calling? What do I do about my neighbor who's always asking to borrow my tools or my coworker who's always gossiping? And I started helping them find the words for that language as well. And that's really where the book of boundaries came from is the evolution of those conversations starting with the Whole30.

36:25
Yeah, and I'm rereading your book right now, or listening. I always feel like listening to a book is almost cheating, because I'm not reading the words, but you know. It's not. And you do such a great job at describing the challenges that people have with boundaries. And one thing I wonder, because I often think about it from a work situation. People have quite a demanding boss, and I've had a few bosses not.

36:51
not many actually in my time and one I just absolutely loved and still love. She's an amazing woman, but she had no boundaries when it came to asking me to do things outside of work time or she would text on a Sunday. Of course, I'm a people pleaser, so I would want to respond. Melissa, do people who seem to maybe ignore boundaries or don't even think about it,

37:17
Are they people who have no boundaries themselves or have issues like, what's your take on that? So sometimes, right, if I don't have any boundaries in my life and people are always taking advantage and walking all over me and I'm always saying yes when I really want to say no, it is very much going to take me aback when someone says no to me.

37:40
Because in my mind, I'm like, I didn't know you could do that. And I'm probably gonna be mad, and I'm probably gonna be upset, and maybe I'm gonna be jealous or resentful. But I think that can be a reason, is that, and I see this especially with older generations encountering in the workplace, Gen Z, setting and holding a boundary. And older generations, I'm Gen X, we didn't have that when I was really young in my career. And so I can imagine that our moms watching us set boundaries around our kids,

38:09
makes our moms kind of upset and resentful because my mom didn't feel like she could do that with her mom. So I think that's a piece of it. But the other piece of it, I think, is just basic human nature, which I talk about in the book. And it's essentially people will take as much as you are willing to give. And that doesn't make them bad people. And it doesn't make them selfish or manipulative. It's just, if I can ask you for something that makes my life easier, I'm going to.

38:34
And that's just your boss was asking you for things that made her work life easier. And maybe that was just human nature. It is then up to you to say, I understand you can ask for whatever you want, but here are my limits based on my availability, my capacity, kind of the what I am and am not willing to do. And it's like, okay, that's the whole point, I think of boundaries is.

38:58
Boundaries aren't about controlling other people's actions. They're about letting other people know the limits that you are willing to set for your own peace and your own comfort. So you can ask me anything you want. And it's up to me to decide whether or not to say yes. Yeah. And I really like how you are quite clear in the book that, hey, people aren't mind readers. Like if you didn't want to do something and you said yes, then you can't blame that person for...

39:24
expecting of things of you because you didn't have that clear boundary sort of set out. And so when you need to make a boundary, you actually need to be quite firm and quite clear as to what that boundary is. So it's not like a maybe or not a possibly or I don't know. So there's no gray, I guess. You know, there was a post on Instagram that I engaged with that's getting like a lot of back and forth and it was from a newborn, a mom of a newborn.

39:50
whose parents were saying, when can we come visit the baby? And some of the suggested responses were like, oh, we're kind of tired and overwhelmed right now, and I'm not sure if a visit would be. And these like wishy washy responses are not gonna get the job done. If you aren't ready for visits, then you need to say, we're not ready for visitors yet, but we'll let you know when. And I got so much pushback on that post because people are like, that's so rude.

40:17
That is so rude. And I'm like, it's not, you know, direct does not automatically equal rude. You asked when we could visit, we are not ready for visitors. And that is the clearest and kindest thing to say. Because what is unkind is being wishy-washy about it. And then your parents showing up on your doorstep thinking they were gonna surprise you. And then you're annoyed and you're treating them coldly and you're rushing them out the door and they don't know what they did wrong and it hurts your relationship and everybody's stressed. That's not a good situation. So,

40:45
My boundary framework is clear is kind, which I borrowed from Brené Brown with her permission. And it again solves so many relationship issues, miscommunications, resentment, anxiety, frustration, avoidance. Just say we're not ready for visitors. You can just say that. Yeah, I love that. And also there don't over explain because when you over explain you then give people an opportunity to, I don't know, talk you out of it.

41:15
Yeah, it sounds like a problem for them to fix. So, oh, I don't know, we're not really ready for visitors. The house is a mess and there are lots of dishes to be done and there's laundry unfolded. And then your mom says, I will come over. I will do all your dishes. I will fold all your laundry. Now look, if that's what you were hoping for, absolutely say the only way we can do visitors is if like somebody pitches in with housework, right? That's a funny thing to say to your mom.

41:40
But otherwise, if you really don't want visitors, and you try trotting out all of these excuses, and they see it as a problem to solve, now what are you going to do? They've already said they're going to come over and do all the errands and clean all the dishes. And now you're like, oh, we still don't want visitors. And then that's just weird. It's better to just decide what you want up front and then say that clearly. Yeah. And Melissa, as I understand, you sort of crowdsourced a lot of situations for your book to be able to help people to set clear boundaries. Did you get more?

42:09
I guess it depends on your audience, but what was the ratio of women to men? Do you remember? Yeah, my audience is almost all women anyway. It's like 80% women, which tends to follow the trends for diet audiences, right? If you think of the Whole30 as a diet or a way of eating. So that kind of trends far more heavily women. So most of my requests came from women. And that also tracks for me because women stereotypically...

42:38
or like understandably because of our conditioning, have a much harder time saying no and setting boundaries. We have been conditioned by the patriarchy and stereotypically rigid gender roles and religious influences to, and sometimes our trauma and sometimes diet culture, all of these reasons to not have needs. When we do have needs, we should not express them because everyone else's needs and comfort and feelings should come before our own. That's what makes us like good wives and good mothers. And if we do have a need and express it, very often we're called

43:07
cold or selfish or worse. So women have struggled historically more with setting and holding boundaries because we've been conditioned not to have them. So it makes sense to me that most of the stories that show up in my book came from women. No, it really does. And when you started getting the stories, was there anything that surprised you that people were struggling with? I know you mentioned earlier about the food situation and not being able to say no there, but any other things you were like, wow, I can't believe people are

43:34
asking this of someone or I can't believe you're struggling to say no in this situation. No, there was no situation. Even if something felt so obvious to me, I never once thought I can't believe you're struggling with this because boundaries are hard. They're scary, they're intimidating, especially if people in our lives have already tried to condition us to have none. So when we have tried to say no before, they make us feel bad, they make us feel guilty, they tell us we have too many rules.

44:04
this is something that you should be able to say no to. I think what surprised me the most were some of the boundary stories that came in where I'm like, this didn't happen. The woman who sent me a note who said, "'We told our in-laws that they could not stay with us "'during a recent visit. "'Our house isn't big enough.' And I offered to help them find an Airbnb or a hotel. And they said, no problem. And then they showed up with camping gear and they pitched their tent in our backyard. And they planned on sleeping in our backyard for the duration of their visit. And I was like, that did not happen.

44:34
It did. It absolutely happened. Or my sister in the story, who's like old boss tracked her down on her honeymoon to ask her what was not an important work question. The stories people told me often blew my mind with the sheer audacity. But I never once thought like, oh, I don't know why you're struggling with this because every boundary can feel really intimidating. And actually on reflection, when I asked you that question, I just thought you're actually like,

45:02
Because you do have such empathy for people in their situation, I can see that there would be that, that it isn't that you're surprised that people can't deal with it. It is, yeah, more than that. But sometimes what I would say is just, you can say this. I had to give people permission. People would say, I don't think I could say that. I don't think I can say no here. And so what I would do more than anything is just give people permission. Like...

45:28
People didn't know that they could set a boundary, and I was there to say, absolutely, yes, you can. You can and you shouldn't, here's the language you should use. And that I think is the thing that it didn't surprise me, but I was delighted to find that very often people just needed permission, and I could easily give that to them. Yeah, and it's a really challenging situation because you're just changing how you communicate with people and they've been set patterns and default behaviors that have been set up for decades in some instances.

45:58
you're like, I am, I know there's a lot of fear involved with taking a stand, I suppose. Yes, you know, sometimes, and this is kind of what I encourage people, sometimes people just didn't know you had a limit. And as soon as you make that clear, they'll go, Oh, yeah, I didn't, I didn't know you felt like that. Sure, no problem. My sister is a great example of this. She never once told me or my mom.

46:25
or my dad, like, hey, we're coming to visit, we're coming to San Diego to see you, we're gonna stay for a week, we're gonna stay for two weeks. She never once said anything, she always just left it up to us. And finally I said to her, you know, you can say to me, hey, it's a really busy weekend and like you can only stay with us for two nights. And she's like, I can? And I was like, yes, and you should, because it is really stressful for you to have people in your house for this long. And she immediately started doing that. And then everybody in the family was like, oh, okay. And we just rolled with it. So that happens more often than you might think. In other situations,

46:55
Yeah, you're going to have to be like the changemaker. You're going to have to be the one who goes first and the one who kind of disrupts the family pattern. But you might be surprised at how many other people in your family are like, good for you for saying something. I've wanted to say something and I haven't. And now that you have, it sort of like unlocks the patterns of communication for everybody in the entire family can function in a healthier dynamic. Yeah, 100%. And sometimes I imagine people don't even...

47:20
understand or know that they have that boundary until they start thinking about it. They're like, I just don't feel so comfortable about this, but I'm not sure why. And reading a book like yours, which is helps them unpack, I guess, those feelings and situations will just be so helpful in that scenario. Yes. A lot of times people feel these general feelings of I'm uncomfortable. It's, you know, I give people a list of things that are a sign that you might need a boundary. And it's like,

47:49
when the phone rings or the text message comes up and it's the person and you're like, oh, I don't want to talk to them. That's a sign that you might need a boundary or a coworker passing by your desk. And you're like, oh, please don't talk to me. That's a sign. You might need a boundary when you're feeling anxious or overwhelmed or avoiding certain people, or you're resentful. You find yourself just going back and forth, like making up arguments in your head about what you would say to this person because they're just constantly taking advantage of you. These are all signs.

48:15
that a boundary could or would be helpful and identifying those signs can help you figure out what boundary is needed and where. Yeah, nice one. And then with regards to that, you've got different levels, right, with which people can come in so you don't go straight to like a super hard, I don't know, how would I describe it? You've got green, yellow and red, is that right? It is, correct. Yeah.

48:41
You know, the first time somebody comments on my body at the dinner table or somebody comments on my plate and says like, oh, do you really want two pieces of pie for dessert? I'm not gonna go nuclear and flip the table and walk out on my family and say, I'm never talking to any of you ever again. That is an unreasonable response. You need levels to your boundary conversations based on the level of threat that that boundary overstep provides. So the first time someone

49:10
oversteps a boundary, I assume that they just didn't know that I had a limit. And if they did, they would respect it. So I want to go in with language that is clear, but it is the most gentle. It just assumes that the person didn't know I had a limit. So maybe it's something like, yes, I do want two pieces of pie and please don't comment on my plate. I'm always really happy with what I choose to put on here. And then I change the subject. Clear, kind, gets the point across, keeps the conversation rolling.

49:36
If they overstep again, maybe they forgot because sometimes these patterns are deeply ingrained, maybe they're just pushing buttons or pushing limits or they don't like your limit, you need stronger language. You need a yellow level boundary, which reminds them, hey, we've talked about this once before, and maybe even shares what the consequence would be if they continue to disrespect. The second time you comment on my plate, I'm going to say, I've asked you before not to comment on my plate. Please don't do that again. And then I changed the subject.

50:05
If they continue to do it, you need a red boundary. This is the boundary. This is the action you are willing to take to keep yourself safe and healthy. Maybe the third time they comment on my plate, I say, I'd rather not have dinner with people who continue to comment on my plate, and I excuse myself. I leave the table. I leave the gathering. Maybe I say to my mom, I don't think we should meet over lunch again, because I don't enjoy our lunches. The conversations we have over lunch, I don't enjoy. So let's go for a walk instead, and you start meeting her outside of food. But...

50:34
There's something that you have to be willing and able to do to keep yourself healthy because you can't make them stop commenting on your plate. So those are where the levels come in and knowing how to escalate, I think makes people feel more confident in having these boundary conversations. Yeah, no, that's so good. And, and even with your comment earlier that even you with all of your experience in this space and your, and helping other people navigate their boundaries that even you sort of need to

51:00
psych yourself up in some scenarios. So it's not, I mean, maybe this is my personality as well, but it's not a particularly, it's never always going to be easy to do it, but the value in being able to do it, like that's the, that's just worth so much to then be able to just feel confident in your decisions and feel, I guess, like you're being the person you want to be. Yes, and...

51:26
You know, there is a boundary situation I had a really hard time with two years ago. And ironically, it was around my book tour for the Book of Boundaries. One of my publishers had asked me to participate in this event. That would have been a lot of work for me, like a lot of work during an already incredibly busy time. And I didn't think I could do it well. And I was on a hike with my sister and she was like, why don't you just tell them that you can't? And I was like, Kelly, that didn't even occur to me. This is my publisher. It's like a big, it's a big deal event. I really should do it. And she's like, but you're telling me you can't.

51:55
You're telling me you can't and if you try to do it, you're going to probably do it in a real half-ass way. And it's not going to be good for anybody. So you need to tell them that you can't. She's like, is there something else you could do? And I was like, well, I could do a fireside chat if they turned it into a fireside chat from a keynote. Long story short, I sent the note to my publisher after psyching myself up. Hey, I think this keynote is going to be too hard. Could I do a fireside chat instead? They sent back a note. Yep, no problem. Oh, I had been agonizing about this.

52:20
For weeks, for weeks I had stressed myself out. And if I had only just communicated clearly as to my limits, I would not have had to carry that. That was a good lesson for me. And like, I'm literally the one who wrote the book on it. So. Yeah. That's such a great story. And so, like I recommend your book to so many of my clients because often it's, you know, it is in that sort of food situation or body situation where they really struggle. But I don't know, I think with

52:48
Food is almost, it's always so much more than just food, isn't it? It's really like a sign of just where people can struggle in so many areas. So certainly the Book of Boundaries is a nice fit, particularly with the Whole 30. Just your whole sort of repertoire is super helpful. Yeah, it seemed like a departure maybe when I started talking about the Book of Boundaries, but it really does support.

53:13
whole 30 incredibly well and the whole 30 supports your boundaries really well. So they're very synergistic. Yeah, nice one, Melissa. And what really is not surprising, but when did you have your concussion, Melissa? It would be five years ago in December. So it's been a while. It is a while. And you still struggle with symptoms. You're very open on Instagram as to you're having your concussion symptoms and the strategies you need. But

53:43
How did you do like two books? How did you manage to find the time and have the energy in addition to living a very full life and write two books? That is like remarkable. You're a remarkable person. Well, I appreciate that, but luckily I was through the worst and thickest of my concussion symptoms before I started writing the book of boundaries. I had probably two years under my belt and that's two years of like constant physical therapy and improvements and evaluations.

54:11
So that part was good and the way my symptoms impact me, writing isn't as hard as speaking, being in front of a screen to write what isn't as challenging as being out and traveling. And then like we had the pandemic, so I didn't travel for about a year and a half, which was, I mean, honestly amazing for my concussion. So that was a bit of happenstance that happened to work in my favor. And I'm just way better now about knowing how to manage it

54:41
triggering events like a big book tour. So my symptoms continue to get better. My flares are fewer in between. They last a shorter period of time. They're far more manageable. So it's all working in my favor at this point. But yeah, every once in a while it comes up and I just figure out, you know, how to navigate. Yeah, amazing. And obviously you're very active with your hiking and your gym work and things like that. Any...

55:08
other things you do on a day-by-day basis that just help keep you sort of thriving that people might not be aware of? I know. Well, I'm sure you're aware because I talk about it all the time, but I read a lot. I read a lot of fiction. Like I read, like most people breathe, I read every single day, every night before I go to bed. I have a rule on airplanes that I don't work. I just read books or watch movies. Like airplanes are sort of, because travel can be stressful.

55:32
And I think reading fiction is hugely important for my brain. It lets my brain let go of some of the stressors and worries and ruminations of the day and really helps my creativity. So being outside helps a lot. I walk a lot. I spend a lot of time just outside, in between calls or when I'm eating my lunch, I'll go outside. I'm still taking my cold showers. Those have been really, really helpful. I'm still doing my post-workout meditation every day. That's been really helpful.

56:00
There are just some small habits that I've picked up over the years that I've been able to integrate into my normal routine in a way that doesn't take up a lot more time or isn't a lot more effort, but they've been really impactful for me. So I keep those up. Yeah, nice one. And then with regards to your diet, I hope it's all right, I ask, I think you have done a few like full day of eating or whatever, but what works well for you, Melissa? So I've discovered over the years that eggs in the morning are like not a good fit for me.

56:30
And I don't really eat a lot of eggs in general. I do much better on a high protein breakfast that's based in some kind of meat. So I'll do ground chicken, ground turkey, ground beef, a whole bunch of veggies, my like ground meat with stuff. This morning for breakfast, I had chicken thighs with a Peruvian green sauce, purple potatoes and broccolini. I mean, yeah, so my breakfast is just whatever happens to sound good, but it's always a protein dense breakfast. I tend to eat my biggest meal of the day.

56:59
in the morning and or at lunch and then dinner is very light. I eat and I'll usually do a snack in between right around three o'clock is usually I'm feeling like I want something kind of in between. So I'll do like some meat sticks, some dried mangoes, some pistachios and then dinner tends to be really light. We eat early because I like to leave a lot of space between dinner and when I go to bed. So we're typically like eating by six at the absolute latest. I go to bed around nine or nine thirty.

57:25
But I eat mostly Whole30 just because that's easy and feels really comfortable for me. But I also eat white rice every day. I eat oatmeal pretty regularly. I eat corn. I love tofu. I love black beans. So those are in rotation pretty regularly. I do quite a bit of hummus. I do some cheese here and there. Not a lot.

57:45
My diet is definitely not all Whole30 all the time. I incorporate those things that I have figured out work really well for me through my various Whole30 experiences. Listen, it sounds delicious, of course. Yeah. And my final question is, did you get on board with Sarah J. Mass in her books, like A Court of Thorns and Roses and all the rest of it? Just curious. Okay. I always get her series confused with the fourth wing series. Who is, I think, Rebecca Yaros. Yes. Okay.

58:12
So I'm all the way through all the fourth wings and I loved them. I thought they were good. Oddly, like I love Smut, don't get me wrong, but the punctuations of Smut in that book were kind of weird. They sort of like dropped you into it, like really hard and heavy. And I was like, where is this coming from? But I loved them. I tried listening to A Court of Thorn and Roses and I DNF'd it after just a couple of chapters. I just couldn't get into it. But then everyone was saying, the book is better than the audio book. And also you just kind of have to get through the first book because the second one,

58:42
is way better. So I just bought the second one and I'm going to try it again, maybe. So we'll see. Nice one. I would have expected better from you to be honest, Melissa. You would have gotten through more than two chapters. But I tell you, number two is great. And I'm really enjoying the fifth one now, which and it's so not my genre either. Like I love middle age romance and Italy and stuff like that. So I was pleased to discover a series that had like five books and then another series that she has. It's brilliant.

59:12
Yes, I've heard they're good. I think, you know, sometimes the audio book just isn't the format. Sometimes audio just isn't right. And for me, audio wasn't right. So I'll keep you posted. If I read it and like it, I'll let you know. But I don't make myself finish a book I don't like. So we'll see how it goes. No, and I appreciate that time in life is short. And on that Whole30 absolutely has to be a print version for me. Like I know it's available on audio, but I really want to see it. And

59:39
It will be published by the time that this podcast is out. And of course, Book of Boundaries has been out for two years now, I think. Yeah. Yeah, nice one. Where can people find, I guess, more information and be able to pick themselves up? Copies, Melissa. Yeah. So everything is available. Whole30 website is just W-H-O-L-E in the number 30.com. There's a book page and we'll add those to UK.

01:00:06
Australia and New Zealand links as soon as I get them. So you can find, and it's also Whole30 on Instagram and TikTok and YouTube and X and Pinterest and all of those different sites, Facebook. And you can connect with me on Instagram at Melissa U. You like my last name, Urban. That's kind of where I'm the most active. You can also find me on TikTok and I have a blog and website under the same address, but Instagram is where you can get me the quickest.

01:00:31
That is awesome. And you're always so responsive on Instagram as well, which as a follower, I really appreciate because it's really nice to, you know, people must really enjoy how I feel, like feel seen, I suppose. So and you share so much as well. So thank you. Awesome. Thank you. Thanks so much. And thanks so much for your time. So enjoy the rest of your day. Thanks so much, Mickey. It was great chatting with you finally in person after connecting on Instagram for so long.

01:01:09
Great, so hopefully you enjoyed that and for those of you who really love the Whole30 program, the new book builds on what you already know and there are some beautiful recipes, the changes are really clearly outlined and if you need a refresh, this would be perfect for you. I have got links as to where you can find Melissa on her sub stack, which is awesome, I absolutely love receiving those letters, and also how you can purchase the Whole30 book.

01:01:39
Melissa's book of boundaries and I've also chucked her Instagram handle on the show notes as well. Next week on the podcast I have the pleasure of speaking to Dr. Eric Trexler all about metabolic adaptation and all other geeky things about energy expenditure which I think you're gonna love.

01:01:58
Until then though, you can catch me over on Instagram, threads and Twitter @mikkiwilliden, Facebook at @mikkiwillidenNutrition, or head to my website, mikkiwilliden.com. There you can sign up to my recipe portal access where for 12 bucks a month, you get access to over 900 recipes, which are also delicious and easy, made from ingredients that you just have at home. And will perfectly align with whatever dietary requirements you might have.

01:02:28
a range of different recipes on there. All right team. See you later.