Transcribed with AI Transcription services; erros may occur. Contact mikki for clarification

00:00
Hey everyone, it's Mikki here, you're listening to Mikkipedia and this week on the podcast I speak to Daniel Rowland.

00:12
Daniel is a runner and coach, and we devote this episode to the ins and outs of training for an ultra-run event. Daniel has a wealth of knowledge in this area, and he collated a super easy go-to guide for anyone looking to embark on this journey and optimize their approach, which is absolutely me. And you can tell as I'm talking to him that I'm taking notes as we speak, given the fact that I have a stage race

00:41
coming up in February of next year 2025. Daniel and I discussed the most important, yet often overlooked aspects of the training campaign, which includes things like how to fit a shop weekend into the plan, how to strength train in a way that doesn't further lead to fatigue, nutrition in the real world for ultra endurance athletes, appropriate timelines for training, and so much more than that. Daniel and I also talk about

01:08
difference between elite and non-elites with how much volume they can get in without risk of injury and then how to compensate with other cross training to help support that aerobic base. We talk about durability for an athlete and how to approach hill training for events that have a significant amount of vert in them. So I think that people who are interested in ultra running, getting into it or who are just wanting to

01:38
sort of optimize what they're doing now with their training that you're going to get a lot from this episode. So Daniel is a trail and ultra marathon runner from South Africa who's living in Switzerland and he's running races all over the world. So he's fascinated by training and progressing as an athlete and works as a running coach and with the HRV4 training team as an ambassador and support for their users.

02:07
Those of you might remember that I interviewed the creator of HRV for training, Marco Altini, last year. So it was super cool to be able to connect those dots. Now Daniel's provided a ton of resources which we've popped in the show notes around strength and mobility for the hips, around just some simple leg strengthening exercises and eccentric strength training.

02:34
So we've popped those in the show notes and I've also got contact details for Daniel that you can get in touch via Twitter, Substack or his website, dwrollin.com. Before we crack on into the interview though, I would just like to remind you that the best way to support this podcast is to hit subscribe on your favorite podcast listening platform because that increases the visibility of Micopedia.

03:00
and amongst literally thousands of other podcasts out there. So more people get the opportunity to listen to guests that I have on the show like Daniel. All right, team, enjoy this conversation.

03:15
Thank you so much for taking the time to speak to me today on the podcast. I have followed you on Twitter for a couple of years, and I subscribe to your little research updates every week, and I find them just so helpful. When I came across your little thread on ultra-run training, I thought this could be a really great topic for us.

03:44
talk about on a podcast because so many people probably do what I do. Obviously, not people who have a coach, but they might just look at a marathon training program and go, cool, I'll just extend out those long runs and I think I'll be great for my ultra. Whereas looking at some of the information that you have on Twitter, I think there's probably a lot that we could all learn from a coach like you. So, super stoked to have the opportunity to chat.

04:11
Yeah, thank you very much for having me. I also listen to your podcast and follow a lot of your materials. So it's exciting for me to be here. And that's it's a great point that you made. And that was actually maybe one of the questions that you sent me in advance about some of the misconceptions about training for ultra marathons. And I think that source of extrapolating from a marathon to try and prepare for an ultra marathon is the biggest issue that most runners have.

04:40
And the reason for that is that it doesn't necessarily consider the demands of the ultra marathon events and how different and multifaceted these are. So for example, we often overestimate the amount of training that's needed by taking a marathon training plan and assuming that a hundred miles is four marathons and that you need to therefore increase your training four times or that your long run still needs to be 80%.

05:10
demands of the race. And on the other side, you might underestimate some of the environmental factors. For example, you could get through a hot marathon, just drinking the normal amount and surviving. But if you're going to be in the sun for four or five, six hours during an ultra marathon, then you need to have some other means to cope with that. So marathon training is a great base for starting ultra marathons. But considering the specific demands of the event is really key.

05:39
Yeah, such a good point. And actually, I hadn't even considered the, I hadn't even given much thought to the environmental demands and the hydration and how people will respond in that setting, which just sort of immediately speaks to your experience here. Daniel, before we crack on into the specifics around ultra training, can you just give us some details on your background and your interest in endurance sports? So were you always sporty as a kid or? Yeah.

06:08
I've always loved individual sports, actually, and endurance sports. I really like how direct and precise they are in that you either win the race or you don't win the race. It's not about being selected for a team or trying to meet some sort of other criteria that's not necessarily under your control. So at school, I did cross country and swimming. And then I also competed in triathlon for my junior national team when I lived in Zimbabwe. And then later on,

06:37
I lived in Alaska for a short while and I had some friends there who introduced me to trail running. We did this amazing run through the Chugach Mountains and that shifted my whole understanding of endurance sports, both because of the length of the run that we went on, which was much longer than anything I'd done before, and just the amazing places we went to. From there, I became much more interested in trail and ultra marathon races.

07:05
because I loved exploring new places. You can often choose races that are strange, different destinations that you might never otherwise go to. And I really like the idea of being self-propelled and doing that under my own fuel and own energy to get the distance completed. So Daniel, with regards to your own experience in coaching, when did you pick up the coaching aspect of it and became more interested, I suppose, in the...

07:32
more than just the race itself, but really analysing what's required and then sharing that information. For my own racing, I really enjoyed looking into the details and trying to learn more because in particular where I started was a lot of stage races, which we might talk about a little bit later, but there isn't that much coaching information and there aren't that many coaches who work in that space. There's definitely triathlon coaches and running coaches.

07:59
And we look at the endurance sport as a whole, but in the specific space of ultra marathons and multi-stage races, it's hard to find a coach in that sort of zone and area of training and racing. So that prompted me to do a lot of my own research and to try and learn more and contact people who had raced the sort of events before and learn just for my own benefit. And I did quite well in some of the stage races that I did.

08:26
and some people started asking me for advice. I was a little bit nervous about giving that because it was a lot of information that I had sort of developed from my own experience. But after a while, I felt more comfortable sharing that and that started coaching and took some other steps to develop those skills. But it was trying to help people to appreciate the things that I'd learned and then together to learn more about how to take on these extreme trail races.

08:56
Yeah, such a good point that you raise because I come at this from an athlete perspective and then like an academic perspective as well. But if you go looking at the literature, it's just not a tonne there in trail and ultra running and particularly not stage race information either. I mean, there is some, but it's really hard to garner sort of concrete advice based on what literature would say compared to say talking to a coach like you and having insights

09:26
you've got from your own racing, but of course now your clients would have as well. Did you sort of find that you do learn more as you have more people, I suppose, take on board your recommendations and get their case studies? Yes, exactly. So there is some research in this area. Guillaume Millet, the French researcher, does some fantastic work on ultra-marathon running, particularly on the UTMB and 100-mile distances.

09:55
Other than that, it's relatively limited. So a lot of the knowledge that we have comes from individual athletes' experiences. So I've learned from my own experiences and from the athletes that I've coached, but also from being in the community and speaking to other people. One of the challenges is that learning from experience is a slow process in ultra-marathon races because you can't do a lot of them in the year. So...

10:20
Maybe you do two or three stage races in a year, and if something goes wrong in two of those races, you can fix it, but it might be another year until you're addressing that problem. And often the issues are surprising or something that you didn't expect that would come up, which is why we created that thread and why we're talking today is to try and address some of those things that arise that you didn't really think of. And unfortunately, you were extremely fit and as ready as you could have been for the

10:50
but something went wrong on the race day that's resulted in poor performance. Yeah, which is so devastating when you, you know, you feel like you give it all up to this point and you feel so fit and ready. And then for whatever reason, things don't go to plan. And it's not like you can then go and do another one next weekend. You sort of like, and I wonder whether, this is a little bit off tangent, but I wonder what your experiences with any athletes you have who might have a race where they have to DNF for some

11:19
I don't know, not an unrelated reason, but something that was unanticipated or expected. How many of your athletes would you sort of say, oh, well, there's this other ultra that I can go and run next weekend. Shall I just sort of go and do that? Or are you like, hey, you actually need that physical break, even though you didn't hit it hard on that particular race day? Yeah, that does happen, unfortunately, that people don't finish. And it really depends on the circumstances. So if there's no injury and no problem like that, then...

11:49
Additionally, if they haven't raced very far in that particular ultra marathon, and it's just been almost a long training run, but something catastrophic went wrong and they had to stop, then we will often try and reschedule a race if we can, two or three weeks later, to make the most of the fitness that they have, and hopefully to address those problems if they're something that could be quickly resolved before the next race.

12:14
So if it's possible, you do try to pivot again to a different race, it depends where you are and what type of races you like. There aren't that many stage races, for example, where you could quickly shift and change. Often they have lots of logistics and a lot of costs behind them, which is quite challenging to then repeat very quickly again. But if it's a long ultra marathon in the mountains, where you only did 30 Ks out of 100 Ks, you could definitely find another one, especially if you live in Europe.

12:44
again in two or three weeks time. Nice one. And although you have a South African accent, you do live in Switzerland, correct? Yes, that's right. I live in Switzerland. I've been here for almost 10 years now. Oh, amazing. How did you end up there? This was also a long process. So I moved around. I was working for a mining company. And we lived in South Africa, my wife and I. And then we moved to Alaska and then later to Chile.

13:12
and we were looking for a place that had a combination of all the things that we liked. So big outdoor nature and places to run and being able to walk to the supermarket and shops and things like that and Switzerland had everything that we wanted. So it's been wonderful living here. Oh it sounds amazing and does your wife run as well Daniel? Yes she does. We actually do swim run races together so we're preparing for a swim run race in the next month together.

13:41
which will be our goal for the summer. I read your most recent race report, I think, from Otillo, and that was that you had published in June, I believe, was it? Yes, that's right. I did an Otillo race at Uto in the Swedish archipelago. Absolutely beautiful, a fantastic place to race. Oh, it sounds that if I was a better swimmer, that would definitely be on my radar of things to do. But I find that I have to probably stick to

14:10
running as my main, I say competitive sport because it is the thing which I'm probably more proficient in. I think with that, I have more confidence in it. So it's less of a mental barrier or a mental hurdle to sort of train for. Before we crack on into some of your thread, Daniel, I had mentioned the idea of...

14:34
extrapolating from marathon training to ultra training and you'd said, hey, actually that's one of the biggest misconceptions. Are there any other misconceptions that you find runners come to you with that you feel you have to correct on any aspect of their training? So what are some of the big misconceptions? I think, I mean, the biggest one is definitely the volume needed for preparing for an ultra marathon. So

15:01
That's the one that we mentioned earlier is extrapolating and saying the distance is so hard. And I think the, the other is, um, the amount of racing that athletes can do in ultra marathon races, it does take a very long time to recover from ultra marathons. If you're doing a stage race, there's multiple days of, um, depletion of your glycogen stores and there's a huge effect that can take weeks or up to months to recover from if you race really hard. And especially if you.

15:31
and the fuel because you have to carry your own fuel in the race. For long ultramarathons that go through the night, I think there's also a disruption there of your circadian rhythm and that also takes time. So you miss a whole lot of meals, you miss a whole lot of sleep, and the recovery time needed for that to get back to being able to train and race again is much longer than people expect. So I think...

15:55
That would be the second biggest thing is assuming how many races you can do in a season, especially over the longer distance. And we see this with the elites now. They also running a little bit more like marathon runners where they're choosing two or three big goals in the season. Whereas in the past, it was possible to race more frequently because of the level of competition was lower at the elite level. So they couldn't get by without fully recovering. But now to achieve optimal performance, you need to allow more recovery time.

16:23
And then for non-elite athletes, just to enjoy the race and training more, you should allow more recovery time as well. Yeah, for sure. Because I often think this is that because we are not elite, we've got lives outside of the sport, we might love it and feel as passionate about it. But we've got all of these other competing interests like work and not that elites don't have family, but other responsibilities that absolutely could impact on that recovery time.

16:53
don't anticipate that that's the case, or they don't really think about it, I suppose. Yeah, it takes a lot and a whole complete system of preparation. So to do a really good race, you probably need to do some reconnaissance on the course, and that might involve some traveling prior to the race. We might talk about it later, but to prepare for the sleep deprivation of a long race, you might try and bank some sleep in the period going into the race by extending your sleep time prior to the race.

17:21
And then that needs to be accommodated in your normal routine. So that is also a challenge. So both the multifaceted nature of an ultra marathon and the demands of it, demand that you address those in training as well. And that can take more time and more preparation that you need to consider and factor into your life as a whole. Yeah. Nice one, Daniel. So.

17:46
One of the first things obviously is volume, which we talked about, and we know that we don't have to necessarily run the full distance of the event, which I think that is a mistake that I see a lot of people make as well, like clients who share with me their training programs. I do see that a bit. What is appropriate for someone of that level where they want to participate, be really fit, but also, I guess,

18:12
they don't have all the time in the world. What's an appropriate level for someone who might be training for something like 100-mile or even 100k? What is the difference between those training loads? And then of course, my selfish endeavor of doing a stage race. What kind of things do we have to think about, Daniel, when it comes to run volume? Because obviously it's important to accrue. It is important. And we do know from looking at elite athletes that they do the most

18:42
And certainly for for elite trail runners, they're doing 20 hours a week and up to 30 hours a week in big blocks before their races. And this is higher than the normal runners because there is slightly less intensity in the training because the races are slower. And because of the climbing and factors like that, where they can use poles, the intensity is lower and it's possible to do more training than a marathon runner, for example. And many

19:11
Ultra marathon runners also do cross training, so that will come into the time that they do. But for a non elite runner, I would say it's not significantly more than what they do for a marathon. So the fitness level needs to be about the same. And then when you add in a slightly longer run, long run on the weekend or a shock weekend at certain points, which we'll also discuss later, that will add a little bit extra time to the weekly training volume. But it doesn't need to be significantly higher.

19:40
than the marathon training plan. So you do need to have some specific race focused simulation weekends, and those weeks will be much higher. So there'll be more variation in the training instead of a consistent training volume. But I'd say probably around 10 hours a week for a hundred kilometer race, and maybe a little bit more for a hundred mile race, because you will do back to back long runs on the weekend, and that will help jump up the weekly volume. But...

20:10
A lot of the athletes that I work with, they have almost a similar program to a marathon program during the work week, and then these occasional longer long runs on the weekend. That do help to build up the volume a little bit, but it's not a significant jump. Yeah. And Daniel, is there for a race that I'll be doing? So I'm doing the, I think I said to you on the email, like it's a six day event and we're running anywhere from 20.

20:37
to 70 kilometers, but there's just one day that is 70. And I think only one day that's 20 as well. And then it's, so it's sort of in between those distances. Would I approach that training when anyone doing a stage race approach training much the way that you've described, like with the sort of longer back to back runs in the weekends, on most weekends, but then just sort of similar to a marathon training plan across the week. Exactly right. So...

21:07
When we look at the predictors of performance, there's been some research into this for ultra marathon and trail races, and they're the same predictors of performance as we see for marathon runners. So it is the level of their VO2 max, it is their percent of VO2 max that they can run at, what is their speed at lactate threshold. So all of those metrics that predict performance at shorter races and the marathon also apply and are quite good at predicting performance in ultra marathon.

21:37
So that kind of fitness that athletes at the marathon are trying to achieve is the same fitness that you want to achieve for preparing for an ultra marathon. But then it's just the simulation and the specific work that you want to achieve for the demands of the ultra marathon. So for someone doing a single day ultra marathon race, we would have some back to backs in their plan. But probably most long runs on the weekend would just be a single day.

22:06
For a stage race day, we would again, maybe talk later about the shock weekends, but I would also aim to do back to back long runs on the weekend just because there will be six days in a row of running in a stage race. So it's really good to become more comfortable running effectively and efficiently on the second day on the weekend. So two long runs on the weekend, maybe two to three hours can be quite effective to prepare for. Yeah.

22:34
What's the role of intensity in your training plans for your ultra runners? Because in terms of, again, speaking for myself, whenever I seem to be quite consistent, my heavier load might be 80K on any given week. And I might have a couple of 90K weeks in there, but not very often. But if I'm sort of in training for something, it is around 80K. But I do notice I am sort of...

23:02
Yeah, I would say teetering on the edge of injury a lot of the time if I try to push the intensity high. So I have to be really careful. Yes. So it really depends on the phase of the season. So with most ultra marathon runners, we try to work with a reverse periodization approach, which means that they have the most specific training closest to the race. So if you consider the race and then we work backwards from that race, the final phase before the race will be a...

23:30
a big focus on running at race intensity and race pace and doing more volume. So that would be your higher weeks of 90 kilometers per week and probably not very many VO2 max intervals during that week. Then the phase before that would be building, working at lactate threshold level of intensity. And then prior to that, a phase of faster running at VO2 max, which would be at lower intensity. So because the predictors of performances are similar,

23:59
You still need to do work during the entire buildup for a race to build, to improve your VO2 max and to improve the speed that you can run at VO2 max. But you will never actually run at that speed in the race itself. So we do that work the furthest away from the race and then become more and more specific in the training so that it looks more and more like the race as we get closer to the race. So intensity is important. And building the cat.

24:26
and the physical ability to perform those sorts of intervals and intense sessions is important but we need to phase it correctly in the periodization for this. Yeah nice one and is there value in people who may be injury prone to doing their intensity work on an elliptical for example rather than out on the road if they feel that that is going to like...

24:55
increase their injury risk? Like how do you feel about something like that? So injury risk is always a problem because there's still a big demand of training load to compete in an ultra marathon. I would try to be cautious with shifting the intensity away from running. So I would think of either reducing the volume a little bit first to account for that intensity in the training week because we're going to be doing the most

25:23
intensity furthest away from the race. So just decreasing the total load from the training week by reducing the amount of kilometers that are run can help. And then I would think about supplementing some of the training with cross training. So that could be some other form of aerobic exercise, but trying to focus on keeping the most specific training running. So the intense sessions, the long runs.

25:49
they need to be running and then you might shift out some of the easy runs for swimming or cycling or another aerobic exercise. Also for people taking on trail and ultra-marathon races, these sorts of races are often in the mountains. So you can still do a very intense session on a steep climb rather than a runnable incline that you might encounter in a marathon, but a steep climb, the intensity will be the same for your heart and cardiovascular system while

26:19
demands on your legs and the injury risk of a mechanical muscular failure are much lower from running on steep terrain or from power hiking up steep terrain. So there's ways to shift it and still keep the most specific training in your plan while reducing the injury risk. That's awesome actually. And so when you say steep incline, are you talking about on a treadmill? It could be on a treadmill or if you have mountains around you, you could go up into the

26:48
And there's other things that you can do as well. If you're training for a stage race, you might have all of your equipment in a pack. So you can use weighted vest hikes to increase the intensity of the training while reducing the mechanical load as well. Yeah, so that makes perfect sense. That's really great actually, because in my head, I'm like, well, if I do my intensity work on a cross-training machine, it'll save me from injury and then I'll just run easy, but that's so nonspecific.

27:17
And in fact, as you started talking, I'm like, Oh, yeah, what you've said is just like so much more sense than that what goes on your head. But it just goes to show that even because I'm not, I'm certainly not a novice, but it's interesting where your mind goes and in order to sort of protect yourself from what you think is going to be of, I don't know, harm or whatever. Yeah, I think what I try to always think about with athletes is to be really specific. So we need to be.

27:43
Approaching the training in a way that is specific to the race that they want to do. So that's when I said we need to think of the specific demands of the ultra marathon or the stage race that's specific to the stage of life that the athletes is in and any injuries that they have, but we're always trying to make the key sessions most similar to what they're going to be doing in the race and then everything else around that supports the training. So, um, a big aerobic volume is important.

28:11
but that can come from cross training and other places. If you can't do as much time in the mountains, then the strength training that you would do would be more supportive of being in mountainous terrain. If you are in mountainous terrain, you can use that for your training, then your strength training might just be more supplemental and focus on core and hip stability and things like that. So it's always trying to be as specific as possible for the race. Yeah, nice one. And the way that you describe

28:40
how you would set up a training program is not dissimilar to the likes of Zach Bitter, for example. And he always talks about doing that faster stuff first. And I remember hearing that from him. He was one of the first people I heard talking about it. Because of course that almost seems in, it's contra to what you might read in a marathon training program, where you sort of start easy and then go super fast. It's like the opposite, but it makes sense in my head. Yeah.

29:08
We call that reverse periodization and the reason it's reverse periodization is because, as you say, the traditional model is more coming from a big aerobic base and then getting faster and faster and faster as you approach the race. But actually, where that came from, that approach of periodization is preparing for shorter races and that was extended to the marathon. But the underlying principle is exactly the same as what we're doing. They're moving from

29:38
long slow distance for example and building a base towards much faster running which is closer to what you might be doing in a 5k or 10k race. So the principle is the same shifting from the least specific to the most specific it's just that you need to think about what the demands of your race are and build the plan in that direction. And of course you've mentioned

30:02
the shock weekends a couple of times. And this is something which I, when I read it in your Twitter thread, I'm like, of course, that makes perfect sense. And I do think actually, when I spoke to Guillaume, he also mentioned the shock weekends. So can we chat a little bit about what these might look like for someone and how often you might schedule them in?

30:26
course of say, I don't know, a six month training program or a four month training program, however long you're going to set that up. Yeah, fantastic. So this is the real difference that we see. So I said that you can probably get away with very similar training to a marathon plan, but with some very specific work that you do to prepare for your ultra marathon. And the shock weekend is that specific work. The idea is that you do, if you're preparing for a

30:55
stage a single day race, you would do two very long back to back days. So the problem with an ultra marathon is that you can never do the distance in training. You don't ever do the distance in training in a marathon run, but you still might do a 30 K or a 34 kilometer long run and you're approaching the marathon and you feel confident that you can achieve that for an ultra marathon. That might be eight or 10 or more hours. It's very unlikely that you're going to go and do it.

31:23
six to eight hour long run and it's just both risky and also extremely demanding so it's hard to plan into the program. So what we try to do for ultra-meritally runners is the shock weekends and that's achieving a similar demand of the race over two days. So there's different ways to break that up. I try to think about it in either time, distance or vertical gain. So for example if you're preparing for

31:51
And after marathon, which will take say 12 to 14 hours, then we think about the time and demand of that. And over two days, you might try to do two days or five hours. So then you're getting a 10 hour demand. It doesn't really matter how far you go, for example, but you're approaching the length. So you're getting the time on the legs. Another way you could do that is if you're preparing for, for example, a hundred kilometer race.

32:18
you might try to do two days of 40 kilometers on the weekend. So then you're achieving a big proportion of the distance on that weekend. And then finally, another way to look at it would be the vertical gain. So then you might say there's 6000 meters of climbing in my race. And I'm going to do two days or 2000 or two and a half thousand meters of climbing and not worry about the other demands. So we're splitting it into the different demands of the race and trying to achieve a big proportion of that.

32:49
These weekends are still really demanding, as you can imagine. Doing two big days like that is hard. So I would split those out and plan them, um, three to four weeks apart. So starting at the race and then maybe a 12 week cycle, building into the race, which would be your last phase of the reverse periodization approach. And you would have a three sets of shock weekends, four weekends apart. And then leading into your race.

33:17
So you do need to spread them out quite far. In between, you would do long runs on the weekend, but not that big back-to-back days like the shock weekend itself. The reason that you do that is that it's an extra long, specific training that's similar to the race. You can test out your gear, your nutrition plan. If you're gonna use poles, you can get used to that. And then from a physiological perspective, it helps to develop your low speed efficiency because of.

33:43
be at a much lower speed than a lot of the running that you're doing in the week anyway. And it also helps to strengthen your muscle fibers and prepare you for the demands of a long race. If we think about a stage race, I tell you this because this is specific to you, that would be a little bit different. But what I would try to account for there is the multiple days of running in a row. So instead of just a single back to back on a shock weekend.

34:12
The first ones that I would think of planning into the plan would be three day shop weekend. So if you're limited by work, you could do a shorter run on a Friday evening. So let's say that would be simulating the shortest stage of the race, maybe a 20k. Then we know that the longest day, you said, might be up to 70k. So you might do 40 or 45k on the Saturday and then replicate the day that's going to come after the long run.

34:41
in the stage race, which might be 30 or 40k a day. In training, you might try to do 25 or 30k a day. So you've almost made like a little simulation of what's coming in the race. If you're doing four of these shock weekends and you have six-day stage race, you could do the first half, sort of simulate the first half and the first one, simulate the second half of the stage race and the second one. And then the later ones, I would try, and maybe even

35:10
push that up to four days of running in a row. So that becomes quite demanding, but you could do, let's say a 20K on a Friday evening, a longer run of 40Ks on Saturday, 30 to 35Ks on Sunday, and then on Monday morning before you go to work, even a short 15K run, for example, and that'll give you four days running in a row, and you start to get used to that sensation and just overcoming the initial.

35:38
lack of momentum that you have when you're starting the third, fourth day of running. And once you get past that, then you have a good feel for what will come in the race and you're much more comfortable pushing in that situation. Yeah, and we have had several mission weekends is what we call them when we just like, oh, for fun, we go and we go down to Airtown, which have you been to New Zealand, Daniel? No, I haven't, unfortunately, not yet.

36:06
Well, good, not yet, because it should be on your bucket list. Down in the South Island, it's a beautiful place for running. And we go down and we just, I can't even think that there is even a race in our mind, but we do like a 20k run one day, and then we do similar across multiple days. And it's interesting, because even though you wake up and your muscles feel sore, actually when you get going,

36:32
it's not that hard. Like you actually like what I find for me personally is that after maybe the second day or even the third day is almost one of the better days that I have with running. Like it's not like I'm yes I'm fatigued but it's almost like my body sort of gets into gear and knows what to do. Yeah, that's exactly right. That's what you're trying to get used to with those shock weekends and almost learn about your body. So that when it comes in the race and you wake up on day three and you

37:00
You're feeling a bit stiff and sore and maybe a bit dehydrated and windswept and all of those things that will come from the previous stages, that you don't completely adjust your pacing and how you approach that stage. And based on those sensations alone, when you've seen from experience, that's actually you can still run quite well on a day like that. So instead of limiting yourself and trying to control and manage the race to an unreasonable extent.

37:28
your experience lets you know, okay, I can push a little bit and it'll get better in the next few hours. Daniel, is there value in having other weekends where you might do like a run on one day and then a hike on another day or are you just sort of adding junk miles if you do that? And I'm not talking about shock weekends here, but just time on feet. What's your experience telling you? That all helps. Everything. So when we said at the beginning about the aerobic volume, the more aerobic volume that you can do.

37:57
the better. And maybe in general, for example, a marathon athlete, hiking is not very specific to their race plans. So that's not necessarily the best training for a marathon runner. But for someone in an ultra marathon, that is quite close because a lot of the race, you might actually be power hiking up some of the steep inclines and things like that. So adding that volume where you

38:28
I would say add as much as you can, but at the same time, always keep in mind that you really want to achieve the shock weekends to the best of your ability and you don't want to be trying to recover from every weekend and missing out on the training during the week that also benefits you. So add as much as you can as long as it's not compromising the rest of your training and the key focus sessions that you work towards. Yeah, that's such great advice.

38:56
And obviously with many of these events, there's a lot of vertical. And I mean, I have done some races where it might only be like a thousand or 1200 meters across like a 50 K distance, which almost feels like no vertical. Of course there is, but, and then you sort of compare that to something that might have 3000 meters sort of vertical. How do we approach Hill training for these events? Daniel, when we.

39:22
aren't close to the mountains. And I think that's the, because I think everyone intuitively will know, well, hey, the mountain's just up there, I can just go and do my hill repeats up there. But what is your advice around hill training, ascent versus descent, up and down, and what to do if you've got no mountains, or even any really good hills? Yeah, so I would say there's three different phases of motion for the body. So,

39:52
Normally when we're running on level terrain, the way that the leg is working is more as a strut, and we're sort of putting tension into the leg muscles to support being in an upright position and then transferring from one leg to the other. But a lot of the work is in that strut and stabilization phase to hold up the body. That's different to the muscular demands going uphill, where you're trying to propel yourself upwards.

40:20
So that demands much more concentric quadricep muscle and also concentric calf motion to push up the heel. And then for descents, the leg is working a slightly different way and there's much more absorption of the shock and there's much more eccentric load on the leg and the quadricep muscle in particular. So the demands muscularly are quite different from uphill running, flat running and downhill running.

40:48
And we want to try and address those through specific training for that. For uphill running, here, most people are more limited by the cardiovascular system than the muscular demands of their legs. So actually it's often not that hard to go uphill on the legs because you can propel yourself upwards and you're strong enough to do that. But you run out of breath first. And this is why we see in some races that are uphill only, we often have

41:18
for example, Kenyan runners or marathon runners, you can transfer from road racing to uphill only racing and be really effective because they have a high VO2 max and they're really physically strong and able to run uphill. And it's much less technical because the pace of uphill is much slower than going downhill and accounting for the terrain and being able to cope with that. So for uphill training,

41:46
it's being as fit as you can as the first step. And then some specific training, we'll get to that in a moment. For downhill training, this is really different for most people and the eccentric demands on the quadricep muscle is really much higher than normal running. That's why people have destroyed quads after ultra marathons and why they feel really sore and that can often slow you down in the race. And getting prepared for that requires

42:12
If you can running downhill, that's the most optimal way to prepare for that. And there's something called the repeated bouts effect, which is after one exposure to the muscle damage of running downhill, your body adapts and it becomes easier to prepare for that later. The repeated bouts effect, it can last for up to three or four weeks. So

42:37
That's why you can see the spacing of the shock weekends almost matches that repeated bouts effect that you get from downhill running. So that would still be your primary way to try and prepare for downhills in a race is to run downhills and to go out for a shock weekend and to match the terrain that you have in your race. Then if you don't have terrain that you can run on all week, you want to try and build some eccentric strength in the quadricep muscles.

43:05
And you can do this through strength training. And I would recommend doing a simple single leg exercises in the gym and single leg squats, single leg deadlifts, Bulgarian squats, exercises like that. And focusing on the eccentric phase of the exercise and eccentric phase is when the muscle is in contraction, but the muscle is lengthening. So that means typically if you're thinking of squats, it's when you're going in the downward motion.

43:34
muscle quadriceps is lengthening but it's still under tension and that's the strength that you need for running downhill. So you would focus on descending in those strength exercises in a very slow and controlled way and that will increase the eccentric demand of the exercise and that will help you prepare your legs for the downhills that are coming in the race. So if you lower yourself slowly

44:03
Is there any propel up or doesn't matter? So it doesn't really matter that much. You don't have to control the upward or concentric phase of motion as much. That concentric phase will help you for climbing up hills, so it's important to also do it. And also you have to return from the descent of the exercise to get back to the starting position. But the focus should really be on controlling and slowing the descent. And then the...

44:32
concentric phase or ascends back out of the exercise, it can be a bit more explosive and faster because that also would more match the climbing and that phase of motion that you'll be using in a race as well. Nice one. And I see a lot of people, I haven't yet to do this myself, jump on a treadmill and put it on that 12 or 15% incline and either walk or jog.

44:59
And is there value in putting that at a certain point in your training session? And how long should those particular sessions be? Like hours or 20 minutes or what? What are your thoughts? Do you prescribe them? Uh, yes, I do prescribe some sessions like that. So there's going to be a blend between, um, reducing injury and also, um, trying to simulate the terrain that's coming in the race. So.

45:25
Adding incline to the treadmill makes the session much harder, of course, so you probably have to slow down the speed. And that's one way to change a session so that it's still demanding and it has a motion that's specific to the race. So it can be useful. If you don't have any hills or mountains around, then I would definitely use that. I don't think that it makes sense to do very long, slow walking sessions on the treadmill.

45:54
because it's boring and you don't enjoy it. So I would try and save that for the shock weekends where you're spending a long time in the mountain and then supplement it with some uphill training. But maybe making some of your sessions during the week, we do have some intensity still in the plan. Use the incline on the treadmill to create that intensity rather than using speed on the treadmill. So if you have, for example, a threshold session that you're doing four by eight minutes,

46:22
that maybe you would run it four minutes per kilometer, rather than increasing the speed on the treadmill, increase the incline so that you're doing running that's specific to your race, and make sure that you use heart rate zones, for example, to control the intensity. So same heart rate zone that you'd be running at four kilometers per hour, but increase the intensity so you're at that heart rate, and it doesn't really matter what the speed is, that you're practicing for the inclines in the race. Nice one. This is a tangent, but...

46:52
Every time I run on a treadmill, even though I'm running at a super slow speed, I find it really difficult. Is this something you've come across with some of the people that you coach? Like, it just seems so much harder for me to run on a treadmill because I'm not very experienced compared to running outside. Yeah, it's a slightly different running motion. So you can still develop a lot of aerobic fitness, obviously, and it is probably the most specific motion.

47:17
that you can do similar to running that you can do in the gym, right? Rather than going on the elliptical or on a bike, for example. But it is a slightly different, uh, running motion because you have less lean in your body and the, the way that, um, you use the treadmill is you reaching out further and then sort of forcing it backwards rather than using that struts and support motion that you use in running. So one way to try and adapt that.

47:46
is to put a little bit of incline on the treadmill, one or two degrees, that can make it feel a little bit more like a normal running. But it's a slightly different exercise. So it does transfer very well, but it won't feel as natural and as easy as you would expect. Yeah, I guess we're really lucky here in New Zealand that most of the time, it doesn't really matter what the weather's doing. You can get out and run. Whereas, as I understand, I'm not sure what...

48:13
what it's like in Switzerland, but I imagine there'd be times of the year where it's a treadmill for you rather than outside? No, I don't do very much treadmill running, fortunately. I can go down towards Lake Geneva and there's some nice routes along the lake. So I prefer personally to try and run on the road just because I think the treadmill can get quite boring. It's a very useful tool if the weather's hard to train in or it's risky because there's ice on the roads or things like that.

48:43
a very useful tool because of the time efficiency on a treadmill that you are running the whole time that you're on the treadmill, you can very carefully control the pace. I think a lot of people might also have access to tracks or indoor tracks that they could use instead of a treadmill. And I would suggest that might be a training tool that they could add to the arsenal of things that they use, because it is actually running as opposed to treadmill running.

49:11
And it's a way to do more specific training that you can do intervals on a track rather than on a treadmill, if that's available to you. Yeah, no, that's really good. And the reason you mentioned of why you don't often go on a treadmill is exactly why, despite the fact I've been running for over 30 years, I could almost count on, I don't think I've been on a treadmill more than, I don't know, 15 times. It's that kind of, oh, unless I walk, I walk on a treadmill. Like you say, it can be boring.

49:41
sort of just to warm up when I'm doing something else, but certainly not to, not instead of actually running outside. I quite like running outside too. Yeah, yeah. If you do have tough winters and you can't get out or the weather's terrible, the treadmill is the most specific training that you can do. So if you're in a phase of your reverse periodization plan in the winter where you're doing the least specific training, which is a faster training or VO2 max kind of intervals, then you might want to

50:11
supplement those intense sessions, you do those on the treadmill, so you're doing a really focused work that's running and then the aerobic work that you do might be on the bike or the elliptical or another way. So you're still keeping and using the treadmill to make specific but then creating variety through adding other stimulus through the bike or an elliptical or rowing and maybe focusing on strength training during that phase as well because that's also least specific to your race so you could do a big

50:40
block of strength work at that time. So it's really about creating a program that you will be most compliant to and be most consistent in and use all the tools at your disposal, including treadmills and making sure that you do things to keep you motivated. Yeah, nice one, Daniel. And you've mentioned strength training a couple of times.

51:03
And also in your sort of thread as you go through the, you know, what's important with regards to ultra running, you talk durability. And I think that this is part of building durability is the strength training component. And one aspect which always, for whatever reason I find I tie myself in knots is where do you fit strength training and a run training program? And what I am absolutely guilty of is doing upper body work. Yes.

51:33
and then ignoring my legs, I'm like, oh, but my legs are really tired already. So, which I know I should not, that isn't what I should do. So how do we fit this in? How do we fit that combination of strength training and running? Yeah, so the place that I always start with my athletes is for strength training, is to do some hip and core mobility work. So the reason for that is that on trails, we're not just running in one sagittal plane.

52:00
There's movement and the transfer of pain from side to side. And that's a little bit different to running on the road where you're always running in one direction. And there's demands on some of the smaller muscles in the hips and legs to stabilize you. And we don't necessarily have that from just the aerobic training that we do on the road or the treadmill or from general running.

52:25
So incorporating a short routine of five to 10 minutes of hip stability exercises, things like clam shells and things like that. And I can ascend through a little routine that I like to share with my athletes so that you have that in the show notes. That's a good starting point. So that's creating some stability and durability so that when you do go to the trails, you're not working those muscles for the first time. Then...

52:53
If you are someone who doesn't have access to the mountains, then you would need to incorporate some of that eccentric strength training for your legs in your normal training plan. That would be a bigger focus for a person who doesn't have access to the mountains. Where I try to place strength training is on the same day as a hard session, but after the hard session. And there's two reasons for that. One is that

53:19
the time from the strength training session to the next strength training session, as the next hard session will be the greatest. So if you do it after your hard session in the afternoon, for example, then your next hard session might be two or three days away and you're not trying to do another hard running session on sore legs from doing strength training. You also get a slight testosterone boost from doing a strength training session.

53:47
And that can help in the recovery and adaptation to both strength training session that you did on that day and the hard run that you did prior to the strength training session. So strength training is always supplementary or secondary. It's not the primary focus. Running is your primary focus. So prioritize those sessions and then fit the strength training as a complement to that in your plan is how I recommend going about it.

54:14
Nice one. And upper body work, I mean, you mentioned hip mobility and core, does that encompass some upper body stuff as well? That's less important for runners, and it could be important if you're using poles and you're climbing. For general overall strength, I think it's useful for longevity and for your health to do some upper body strength training. I don't...

54:39
give my athletes that because most of them are focused on race performance and it's not critical. But for overall health, I think you could incorporate some just general upper body strength training on perhaps those days where you do the stability and hip work that help you to become more durable and robust. Nice one. And you mentioned poles and I've just recently gotten into poles over the last year or so. And I believe that it was you that shared a study looking at the

55:07
energy expenditure around using poles. I might be wrong, it might not be energy expenditure or something else about how it was either helpful or didn't make a difference with regards to runners. Was that you, Daniel, that shared a study like that? Yeah, I shared some studies like that. There's some interesting research on poles and the point where they become beneficial in terms of energy expenditure is extremely steep. It's like the steepest vertical kilometer races in the world.

55:37
So technically they're not necessarily going to help you in terms of the efficient, uh, uh, absolute energy expenditure in a race. However, some work also from Guillermier is, um, considering the fact that you don't always need to focus on the absolute highest efficiency factor to perform best in an ultra marathon. So you might make some compromises for things that seem energetically inefficient.

56:06
but that help you perhaps muscularly in a marathon. One of those examples is poles. So having the poles to help you climb uphill might save your legs a little bit of energy and a little bit of soreness and muscle damage that will be critical later on in the race. Another example that he gives is wearing slightly heavier and more robust trail shoes, which obviously have a higher energy cost, but with a little bit of extra cushion and maybe some more stability

56:36
certainty around the traction, that loss of energetic efficiency results in greater overall efficiency over the course of the race. So, poles and shoes, and there's a few other examples that fall in that category, can be really beneficial. And we definitely see that in long ultra-marathon races now. For example, in UTMB, 10 or 15 years ago, you would see a range. Some people using poles, some people not using poles.

57:06
now the top 10 athletes are all using poles. So while it's not energy efficiency, the highest possible way to run, there are benefits of using it and people are doing it. And we see that through what the athletes are actually doing. Yeah, nice one. And it's super interesting with the shoes because of late, what sort of almost gone reverse, like for a while everyone was into the minimalist type shoes that had very little sole so your feet could

57:36
connect with the trail so you'd be able to feel it a little bit more and then you'd be more certain. But as I understand, and what you've just told me is actually you might be better off with a, not a thicker sole, but maybe it was thicker, but a heavier shoe so you've got the protection of the shoe itself, is that right? Yes, that's exactly right. So things have changed a little bit now. There's not necessarily a complete compromise like it used to be in the past where you would have to compromise

58:05
weight significantly for additional cushioning. Now with the Super Foams that we get in shoes, you can still get quite a light shoe with good cushioning. But in the case of an Ultra, that would be thinking about the shoes that you find most comfortable. So for your example with, you know, you're gonna be doing a stage race of six or seven days, you want to make sure that your shoes are comfortable. And it could be worth sacrificing a little bit of weight in those shoes to find a shoe that's slightly more comfortable.

58:35
You might also need a slightly more robust grip, for example, because depending on the terrain that you're going on and that you're going to be using that shoe six days in a row, if you're in a desert, for example, you don't want the tread peeling off because it's too hot or something like that. So it's more around compromising to make sure that you're the most comfortable for your ultra marathon and not trying to be the ultimate lightweight, minimalist runner that's...

59:04
can affect you negatively over a long race like that. Yeah, now that makes perfect sense. And then with regards to poles, do we know if there's value in being able to use them going downhill to help protect leagues from the vert down? I imagine you'd probably have to be quite a skilled individual to utilize them well in that instance. It does help a little bit, and it really depends on the speed. So.

59:30
Typically we don't see in ultra marathons in the mountains people using poles on downhills when they're running. And the people that you see using poles on the downhills are usually in trouble already and their legs are too sore and they're trying to use the poles as, as an extra support. Um, I would say that the level of skill that you would need to run on technical terrain at quite a good speed, um, and still use poles is extremely high and probably not worth it. So.

59:57
I would prioritize trying to develop that eccentric leg strength through downhill running on your shock weekends and if you need to in the gym, and prioritizing that rather than using the poles for the descents. That's such good advice. Thank you. Because I'm certainly not that skilled individual who can, who is like a mountain goat going down a hill, that's for sure. You've mentioned sleep banking, and I think Iam also talked about this concept, which

01:00:24
totally makes sense. And obviously it makes sense for someone who is doing an event that will extend into the evening time and potentially the next day. But also I'm thinking about from a stage race perspective, like, I mean, sleep is probably just going to be, it's going to be challenging to get a good night's sleep during the race, potentially anyway, because of your nervous system, because of the environment, etc. So what are some tips around sleep banking?

01:00:54
In the week leading up to the race, you can sleep a little bit more. And the research that I've seen says six days of an extra hour of sleep a night, um, can actually help to increase your sustained attention during the race. And then it can also help to reduce the onset of sleep, um, that you might feel during a long race. So you don't necessarily want that in a stage race because you want to be able to fall asleep as quickly as possible in the evening.

01:01:24
but it can improve your attention and your ability to complete the task in ultra marathon running. So the work that's been done up to now has only been about a week of sleep banking and extra hour a night. It seems that even if you just go to bed and turn off all the lights and things and don't fall asleep right away, there's still some benefits to being in bed and trying to sleep for an extra hour a night. I would include that in the...

01:01:53
sort of a pre-race week routine. So, on my athletes, I try to have exactly the same routine in the days leading up to the race for every single race, but they don't have to think about it. And then as long as it's a formula that's working for them, then that final week before the race, the training sessions are always the same. The nutrition in the last couple of days of loading up prior to the race is always the same. And for athletes who are going to race through the night,

01:02:23
we include sleep banking in that as well, and try to get an extra hour a night. So it's the same routine, and it's only really applicable to that one week before the race. Yeah, nice one. Very quickly, do you still have like 10 minutes so we can talk nutrition, Daniel? Amazing, thank you. I can do it all day if you want. I know, you've been brilliant. This has been so fabulous. So Daniel, when it comes to nutrition, like there's not a ton of literature

01:02:52
to give us really clear guidelines on what we should be aiming for. People will look at it, they'll come to me and they'll ask me, what carbohydrate content should I be aiming for per hour? I generally think for ultra-endurance stuff, it's more about a calorie intake rather than a carbohydrate intake. I'd be keen to just hear your thoughts on that because of course, you're the one that has coached multiple athletes, I don't know, hundreds of athletes or whatever to their ultra-marathon goals. Whereas, you're

01:03:21
So you've got a lot of experience there. What I do find, and I'll be keen to hear your thoughts, is it just feels like it's quite individual. And so talk us through what your recommendations are, because I think I would find it's helpful too. So it absolutely is individual. And it's also, again, specific to the race. So for example, if you're doing a stage race where you have to carry all of your own nutrition, I don't know if that's the case in your stage race. Some races, they give you food, and some you have to carry everything yourself.

01:03:51
in a stage race, we have to carry all your own food, then the weight of the food becomes critical. And you'll almost certainly be in a calorie deficit because you can't carry all the food to match the expenditure during the day from your basal metabolic rate and from the demands of the exercise. So in that scenario, and this is quite specific, I would recommend someone and what I did myself is to follow a very low carb diet.

01:04:21
try and increase your fat oxidation. And then in the race, you would carry much more fats for eating not during the stages themselves, but during the time outside of the stages where you're recovering and recuperating. For two reasons, one is you are going at a much slower speed in a stage race. And the other is that there's nine calories per gram of fat compared to just four calories per gram of

01:04:50
sorry, in protein and carbohydrates. So you can almost halve the weight of things that you're carrying if you have a very low level of weight that you want to carry. In that case, you would might eat things like Parmesan cheese and olive oil and things like that. It's not very appetizing, but it's only for six days. And it's almost similar to what you see polar explorers using, where they have limited calorie intakes. And that's a very specific case. So I

01:05:19
I wouldn't necessarily recommend that for people who have access to as much carbohydrates as they need. In that case, I think it is individual again. I don't think that we need to push up into those very high ranges that we are seeing from cyclists, for example, because the intensity is much lower. So a common mistake is to look at Tour de France cyclists and say, oh, that's a stage race.

01:05:47
And I'm going to try and replicate that. For starters, those are elite athletes who have trained their entire lives. And the demands of the race are very specific. And they're racing in zones and with power outputs that are much, much higher than what someone else would do in a stage race. But I'd still recommend aiming for, perhaps as a starting point, around 60 grams per hour, if it's possible to carry that. And then adjusting based on each individual to see how they cope with that.

01:06:17
For very long races, one of the issues becomes flavor fatigue. So you might think, oh, I can just force gels and maybe in a marathon, if you're taking six or eight gels, you can force those down in the long stage of your stage race that 70 Ks in like 10 hours, forcing down 25 or 30 gels is is much more challenging. So you would need to think about the logistics of what you need to carry in the race.

01:06:45
what's accessible and aid stations along the way. And then also the flavor fatigue and what you actually be able to consume. For that reason, lots of ultra-marathon athletes end up eating much less than they need to, but they need to adjust their plan. So I would say around 60 is a good place to start and then adjust a little bit up or down depending on how it works for you. Yeah, nice one. And I've chatted to athletes and they,

01:07:14
report that they're really good in the initial phases of the race, maybe the first half or two-thirds. Then by the time it gets to that latter part of the race, they've got flavor fatigue. Their gut just doesn't feel great. They actually end up eating a little bit less than that, but on average around maybe 50 grams of carbohydrate for the race. So pushing it a little bit higher at the start and then tapering off.

01:07:40
Yep. So I would think about that to see what happens in your shock weekends and try and balance that out. And, um, I would maybe then see like, okay, I did average 50 over the shock weekend, maybe starting with 55 or 60 as your first hours and then trying to be more consistent throughout the race rather than having a high intake at the start and then having nothing at the end. Another way to think about that is that the

01:08:06
Demands of stage rest change, so the intensity is different throughout the race. So you might want to think about trying to load a little bit more carbohydrates during uphill sections. So the demand of climbing is higher, so taking in carbs when the demand is higher is good. But also the motion of your stomach shaking and of hiking is much less pressure on the stomach and there's less jostling and discomfort.

01:08:36
So that might be a good time to take in more carbohydrates. So you could also use the terrain and the availability of nutrition and aid stations to help plan how you take in your carbs and what time frame each intake is. Yeah, that's really great advice. It is interesting when you hear what people do, isn't it? Like on those long races, and I know I've got someone who's very good runner and she ended up having avocado. That's all she ate during like the hard rock.

01:09:05
And then I think Nicole Bitter said that she ran in one of her events, that's all that she had as well. So she really felt like in that last lap of maybe, can't remember which race it was she was talking about, but she's like, oh, I felt like it was avocados. That's what I had. And it's interesting what your body, I guess what your appetite is for, just getting those calories in. Yes, I think so. I think it's probably good to always start and remind athletes to the starting point of what we see in.

01:09:33
in research on nutrition and sports nutrition is that carbohydrates are optimal, maybe 60 to 90 grams per hour. That should be probably your starting point and then you need to adjust it and individualize it on what you're actually able to do yourself based on your training and experience and the logistics and demands of the race. So those sorts of examples are fantastic and I like them.

01:09:58
actually what happens when you're out there. So it's important to listen to those practical things. But I would always start trying to follow the ISC type guidelines that are based on what is optimal for performance and then adapting that to what the athlete is actually capable of doing. So you do need to have backup plans. You do need to have other options that you can use throughout the race. Let's start with

01:10:26
with best practice and then deviate from there and probably deviate as little as possible. But be prepared to deviate if you need to. Yeah, nice. I like that because that's just that sort of training of that mental flexibility, isn't it? Like if something doesn't go to plan, that's okay. You've got plan B. And plan B didn't work? No, got plan C. Exactly. So I think that's something maybe we haven't touched on yet, but actually executing in the race itself is something is going to go wrong.

01:10:54
And just because of the amount of time that you're out there, it's almost a certainty that something that you didn't think about will arise if you haven't spent some time prior to the race, thinking about it. And one of the ways this manifests is that people might think, all right, my legs are going to get really sore. And that's the issue that I need to overcome in the race. And then they actually are struggling with blisters, for example, and they had prepared themselves mentally.

01:11:23
for the sore legs, but not necessarily for sore feet that is now their limiter in the race. So one of the practices that I also include in my athletes pre-race week routine is to do some scenario planning and to try and think about all of the issues that could go wrong in a race that could happen and then to come up with backup plans and mitigating actions to resolve that. So it could be

01:11:51
Like you said on the nutrition front, like I just feel like I can't eat jells anymore. And then what is my backup plan? Well, I still seem to be able to eat bars, okay, can eat carbohydrate based energy bars. Okay, I can't do that. But actually in the aid station, they have panini or a sandwich or something. Okay, I can try that. Okay. That doesn't seem appetizing and it's something really salty. Then there's always backups. So you don't want to be trying to think of those

01:12:20
solutions and mitigation factors for problems that you're having in the race in the race because you're fatigued and your cognitive function is a bit lower and You're more prone to catastrophic thinking So if you've thought of those things and you almost have a default action to take when something goes wrong Then you just follow that and that can help to save your race in a stage race that might be blisters that often comes up that you have blisters but having ways to deal with that or

01:12:50
having ways to fix a backpack that breaks and just fixing that instead of thinking, well, that's it, my race is over. And in normal light of day, you wouldn't think that. But in the situation that feels so catastrophic in the middle of your priority race, when you're energy deprived and tired, your decision making is not very good. So to try and prevent having to make decisions on the day through good scenario planning can really help you in your race.

01:13:19
Amazing, Daniel. You've provided us with such great tips on the things that we need to think about for ultra endurance events. I know most people will either have a coach or be following some sort of training program, but very often if the latter is true, they're not thinking about these other things. They're not thinking about durability, about how to use strength training to help.

01:13:45
specifically for their running or the shock weekends or the utilization of cross training. So I think all of that is super helpful. Your next race, when is this? So I have two focused races coming up. I'm in a race, CSNL in the mountains here in Switzerland in two weeks time. That's...

01:14:10
It's about 25 Ks and 2000 metres of climbing. It's a classic race that we have in the mountains. Yeah, it's beautiful. And then after that, I have Otulo in September, which is about 65 Ks of running and 10 Ks of swimming in the Swedish archipelago. It's a beautiful race, and that's my biggest goal for the year. So I'm working towards those two in the coming month. That sounds awesome. And I've heard race reports, I believe.

01:14:39
That was the one that Rich Roll did actually. And he talked about on his podcast, your main race, which sounds super awesome. And actually one last thing, it wasn't the UTMB this year, it was like Hard Rock. People talked about the aid stations that the runners nowadays are like F1 Formula, Formula One race drivers. Like they're in aid station and then they're out again.

01:15:10
I suppose that things have just changed, haven't they, in terms of the professionalism of ultra running over the last 10 years or so? That's exactly right. So it is a high level of professionalism, more competition, and that time in the aid stations is critical. So in the past, we would sometimes see people sitting down, changing their shoes, changing socks and things like that. And really being...

01:15:37
cautious and slow through the aid stations and using that time to help set them up for the next phase of the race. Now there's not as much time to do that. Athletes are not necessarily like Formula One that quick through. You still need to take a little bit of time there to think and this might be a place where you're looking at different options and looking at different race plans. For example, well I haven't been able to drink this, what do I take? So if you have a crew they can also support you with that.

01:16:06
And by having different drinks and gels and things to use in the next phase of the race. So all of that is more professional and people are planning and being more strategic about how they use the aid stations, but it's still a critical part of the race and making good decisions in there, even if it takes a few more minutes is, is better than rushing through and saving seconds. So it's about being maybe less efficient in some places. Like we talked about Guillaume's work.

01:16:34
for the overall benefits of a foster race. Yeah, and you know what, regardless of whether you are a professional who is vying for a podium finish or you are like me, you just want to really enjoy it and want to give yourself that best experience, I think that same rule applies, like really thinking about things in the aid station and the best race tactics. Yeah, exactly. It works for everyone.

01:17:01
You might just need a few minutes just to reset mentally as well you could use that time and feels like oh i shouldn't sit down and the station but maybe you need that to maybe putting on some fresh socks can help or if you just run through the night changing out your t shirt might not be the fastest aid station but it's can really help reduce your perceived efforts and make you feel better for the rest of the race so. I think it's been really deliberate throughout the race and then also thinking about that prior to the race what.

01:17:30
what would help you in these different scenarios and trying to execute on that. Yeah, that is awesome, Daniel. You're such a wealth of information. And I'm super pleased that we got the opportunity to chat about all things to do with ultrarunning. And certainly, it was a bit of a selfish endeavor for me because all of the stuff that we've chatted about, I think it will be so helpful. Where can people find out more from you? Do you have coaching slots available? Can you just let us know a little bit more about that?

01:17:59
Yeah, fantastic. I really enjoy talking about it and there's so much more to speak about. So I would be happy to chat again and we can talk more specifics about stage racing and your race if you'd like that. That would be a pleasure. Amazing. Yes, people can follow me on Twitter. I'm available at dwroland is my Twitter handle. I also have a blog at dwroland.com and people can reach out to me for coaching there.

01:18:28
I do have some slots available, so if anyone is interested, please just get in touch. And then I think you mentioned at the beginning, I have a weekly newsletter that I send out with interesting research that I think is interesting, with practical takeaways for endurance athletes to try and implement these things that we see in the research into their training plans in racing. So you can also find that through my website if you want to go there.

01:18:56
That is awesome, Daniel. Thank you so much. And I would love to chat again in the future, maybe closer to when everything sort of kicks off. And yeah, I look forward to hearing how you go in your events over the next couple of weeks. Very best of luck for the one in a couple of weeks. And of course, I'll be following your training along on Twitter as well for your big event in September. Fantastic. Thank you very much, it's been a pleasure to chat with you.

01:19:36
Hopefully you enjoyed the interview. It was such a delight to chat to Daniel. He's obviously very enthusiastic and I really appreciate the time and attention he puts to creating an athlete's training plan. Next week on the podcast, I speak to Steph Campbell from Clover Foments. Anyone with an interest in gut health and overall health is really gonna love that conversation. Until then though, team, you can find me over on

01:20:03
Instagram, threads and Twitter @mikkiwiliden, Facebook @mikkiwilidennutrition or head to my website mikkiwiliden.com and sign up to my webinar which is taking place on the 13th of September kicking off your spring fat loss journey. Alright guys, have the best week. See you later