Transcribed using AI transcription; errors may occur. contact Mikki for clarification

00:03
Hey everyone, it's Mikki here. You're listening to Mikkipedia. This week on the podcast, I speak to Steph Campbell, who is the co-founder and creator of Clover Femints.

00:15
Steph goes right into the background of the creation of clover ferments that began through a personal health journey for herself and her daughter Clover, who had some significant health challenges upon being born, which no doctor, nutritionist, naturopath could help with. And Steph stumbled upon the idea of these anaerobic fermentation products that led to the resolution of Clover's gut issues.

00:44
and led Steph down the path of creating Hurotonics. And it's such a remarkable story, which I think will be super helpful for parents who may be dealing with food intolerances and gut-related issues for their children. Not just children though, Steph has so many amazing testimonials as to how they've really helped improve customers' gut-related issues as well. So I think you guys are really gonna love hearing this story.

01:12
So as I said, Steph is the co-founder and creator of Clover Ferments, and she has included a discount code for New Zealand listeners to get 10% off their first order using the code MICKIE10 that's MICKIE in capitals 1 0 10. Then for any international listeners that are keen to try the tonics, they can't ship them internationally, but they have created an ebook so people can make their tonics at home.

01:40
and Steve has provided the links for me to provide to you guys. So I've popped them in the show notes as well. Just a reminder, though, before we crack on into the podcast.

01:52
The best way to support Micopedia is to hit subscribe on your favorite podcast listening platform. That increases the visibility of Micopedia and it makes literally thousands of other podcasts out there. So more people get the opportunity to learn about products such as Clover for Memes and to learn from experts that I have on the show. All right, team, enjoy the conversation I have with Steve Campbell.

02:18
Hey Steph, thanks so much for joining me this morning from the lovely Wanaka. How long have you been in Wanaka? Have you just always lived here? Thank you. No, so I met my husband here like, gosh, how long ago was it now? I don't know, 12 years ago when he was a snowboard instructor. And I was here on holiday. And then we used to do the seasons back and forward, like chasing the snow. And then we'd lived, you know, Wanaka, Auckland. And then when I was pregnant with my second

02:48
Clover, because I've gone through such a rough journey already with my first, my parents are here and I was like, Hey Matt, I'm moving to Wanaka. I'm moving with Ari and the baby in my tummy. Are you coming? And so then that was like five and a half years ago. So we've been back here for five and a half years. Oh, amazing. And I'm sure it wouldn't have been a hard sell if he is a snowboard or was a snowboard. Yeah, exactly. He's changed careers now, but he can like go up before work.

03:16
And on the weekends and stuff. So he's like, okay, yeah, I'm coming. Oh, nice one. That's great. I am super stoked to get to chat to you, Steph, about your, obviously your tonics, which I have tried and love, but importantly sort of how, like the genesis of your products as well, the Clover Ferments, because you've got such an awesome backstory. And I think for any parent out there who might have either been in a similar situation to you or...

03:45
who is currently sort of experiencing, I mean, if I say trauma with a little T, it probably doesn't even seem like a little T trauma at the time, just the distress that someone can go through that your little baby can go through with all of the health complications that you had with your baby. Or even dealing with that themselves as well, as an adult. Yes, 100%. And I love it because we're gonna bring a great story

04:14
Um, not, yeah, I would say of hope, but you know what, if someone hasn't even tried anything like your tonics, which we'll go into detail about, um, later on in this conversation, then absolutely give someone something to, um, uh, to try, I guess. Yeah. Nice one. So Steph, actually let's start by having you sort of introduce yourself and your company and what you do. Okay. Cool. So as you said, my name's Steph.

04:44
And my company is called Clover for Ments, which is named after our second born Clover. And we founded Clover for Ments when we, so when we had Clover, it was realized that she couldn't tolerate any foods apart from lamb, leek and green beans for the first one and a half years of her life. And that meant, because I was breastfeeding her, because of course she couldn't tolerate any formulas or anything either, that meant that also I could only eat those three foods for one and a half years.

05:13
So if Clover or I ate anything apart from lamb, leek and green beans, she would have severe reactions from like nappies full of blood and end up in hospital, to hives, to screaming all night, eczema, digestive upset, these kinds of things. And we tried what felt like everything for that year and a half. We tried osteos, we tried baby probiotics, we tried elimination diets. Honestly, the list just goes on and on. And we didn't see any...

05:43
improvements. And then finally, I joined this mums group online because I was like, am I the only person in the world who has a baby who can only three foods, but turns out there's a lot of them out there. And I found this mums group online with all these other mums going through the same thing. And a few mums reached out to me and said, Hey, have you tried anaerobic fermentation? And I had no idea what it was. But I was just like, okay, let's try it. Let's try the next thing. You know,

06:10
As a mum, you don't give up. You keep going until you find the thing that is gonna help your child. And so I ordered the equipment and started making these fermented vegetable tonics. And yeah, they take 21 days to make. So after 21 days, I started giving them to Clover and I, and I gave them to both of, we both had them for about four weeks because that's the advice I'd been giving from the mums in the group is like,

06:40
her gap time to strengthen and build up before trying new things first, even though it was so tempting, you know, to just like bring foods in. And so after four weeks, I slowly started introducing new foods for her, foods that she had previously failed. And I started with lower risk ones, you know, like fruits and vegetables and other meats. And from that day on, she never again had a reaction to a food. Like it was honestly unbelievable.

07:08
And so then, yeah, so once she was a year and a half, then she could just eat everything and continue to grow and thrive. And so that's the story of making the tonics, but then how it turned into a business. And so can we start? Okay, stop there. Because yeah, it's a lot. No, no, that was a great introduction. I just want to unpack a little bit of this so we can get a real sense of, I guess, your backstory as well. So my first question is like,

07:36
Did you yourself have allergies growing up as a child? I mean, your mum is in Wanaka, obviously when you were having Clover and you were seeing Clover with all the distress, did you, like, did you chat to your mum about your own sort of childhood history? My mum did say that I'd been a really colicky baby. That was kind of the only thing. And she said looking back, maybe, you know, I had some intolerances or something as a baby. And then- But you don't know what you don't know, I guess. Exactly, yeah.

08:06
And then going forward throughout my life, I didn't have any known intolerances or allergies. I ate everything. But now looking back and my gut health is in a completely different place, I'm like, wow, I did have some gut issues my whole life until I got my gut sorted. And I just didn't realize because I had them my whole life, I thought it was normal. What were you doing? Bloating, gas? Yeah, nothing major. I didn't have eczema and I didn't have, you know.

08:35
other symptoms like that, but I did have, yeah, bloating, gas, I remember having like stages of constipation, yeah, so definitely looking back, I'm like, wow, I've come a long way because my tummy was not comfortable then and I don't experience those things now. So I do think that going into my first two pregnancies, my gut was not in an ideal state. And so I'm not surprised that the...

09:04
and my two oldest girls have had gut issues because, you know, that the baby inherits the mum's microbiome when going through the birth canal. So if my gut isn't in a good place, then baby's probably isn't going to be either. And what about Matt? Like, did he have any like significant... I feel like similar to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I ate everything no-knowing, food intolerances or allergies, but definitely has realized, oh, my gut is in a better place than it was.

09:33
So yeah, and then the both of us combined. Yes, yeah, totally. And what about, now you said Ari had a few issues, but clearly not so significant that you then went and built a company around it. Exactly, because with Ari, first of all, we didn't really know about food intolerances and allergies at this point. So it was funny, it's the kind of same timeline. She had a year and a half of just, she just was always unsettled, unless she was really distracted.

10:01
I remember posting in a mum's group saying, hey, does anyone else's baby cry all the time unless they're distracted and no one commented? Oh no. And I was like, oh my gosh, this isn't normal. Yeah. And that's when I ended up going to a doctor and he was amazing and he was like, I think she's got food intolerances and we cut out dairy, soy and gluten and within two weeks she was a completely new person. Amazing. And then we didn't reintroduce.

10:30
them until, because if she had them occasionally, I do think it affected her. But then once we got onto the tonics, I was like, oh my gosh, we can reintroduce dairy soy and gluten for Ari. And we did. And again, she's never had an issue with them since then. Oh, that's so interesting, isn't it? And isn't it interesting like that Ari had some, you know, she obviously had these intolerances, but the more significant issues were with clover, which would have been your body.

10:58
through two pregnancies, it's a place for just one. That's the interesting thing is talking to the mums in the mums group, they're like, each baby gets worse unless you address your gut health. So obviously that was the case for me. Ari was had, let's say moderate intolerances, clover severe, but then that's when my.

11:19
husband wanted to have a third and I'm like, oh my gosh. So I'm like, okay, we've got to put some conditions in place when we both really worked on our gut health. And then Stella, our third baby has ended up having no intolerances, allergies, skin issues or anything. Oh, amazing. And Stella, I mean, with a name like that, you'd just expect everything to go just swimmingly. Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. Hey, so.

11:44
Steph, I can imagine that at the time, you must've been so distraught to have a baby who was having blood in her nappies, who was crying in distress all of the time and not being able to help. Like I am not a biological mom, I've got stepchildren, but I've never had a child myself. And I can't even imagine what you would have gone through with that. Yeah, it was really traumatic. And I think I have kind of blocked it out a bit.

12:14
I feel like sometimes when I'm making reels and stuff, I'm like, I should have got more photos so that I, you know, now I'm thinking, so I could have showed people actually what it was like and given people hope. But obviously at the time, I didn't want to be taking photos of it. And the only traumatic thing I have to remember is I remember that there was one stage in it where no doctors were listening to me. And I remember video.

12:41
her in the night because it was like she was possessed. She was just absolutely out of body. And I was like, I need to show the doctors so they see I'm not, because you take your kid into the doctor's office, so many parents will relate. They're terribly sick at home. You take them in and they start smiling. Like they're really distracted or you know, and the doctor's like, oh, they're fine. Yeah. But honestly, apart from that, I do feel like I've kind of almost blocked some of it out because it was.

13:10
sat to chore at that time and not only was COVID not thriving, but I was really suffering as well on the three food diet. I ended up getting shingles. I was so underweight because you're eating only those three foods. No matter how much lamb I ate, not eat like the fattiest lamb, I just couldn't keep weight on and couldn't be well nourished. Okay. So how on earth did you get to the point where you'd realized that lamb, leek and green beans were the three foods? Because they were like...

13:38
hundreds of foods out there. I know, it's such a good question. Okay, so first of all, when we were in the hospital, they were like, you need to cut out dairy. I think they just said dairy and gluten, maybe not soy. But because I'd had that experience with Ari, I'd actually already gone into my breastfeeding journey with Clover not having those, and I was planning on reintroducing them in a few months. So I was like, I'm already not having those. And they're like, oh, okay, that kind of threw them. They thought that'd be like a quick fix, you know? So then they said, okay, you've got to try it.

14:07
top eight allergen free diet. So you know, that includes like nuts and shellfish and stuff. So I was like, okay. So then I tried that, still no progress. Then I think I went to AIP, which is also, yeah, like no grains, no potatoes, no nightshades, et cetera. That's autoimmune paleo for people who are unfamiliar. Yeah, so basically it was kind of like, do you know what I mean? I was like getting less, more restricted, more restricted, more restricted. And then finally in the mums group, they're like saying, okay, I think.

14:36
When you get to that stage of still not seeing any progress, try a TED diet, total elimination diet, which is like picking three foods and then hoping to get to a baseline and then slowly reintroducing. So from researching in the group, it seems like lamb was like the least allergenic. And luckily for me, I was in New Zealand, you know, some of these moms are in like America and they're really struggling to access enough quality meat, but you know, New Zealand, that's fine.

15:03
And then I don't know why I picked Lincoln Green Beans. I was just like, I think because I was like, okay, Green Beans, I can get a frozen bag year round. And they seemed like lots of people were okay with them. And I'm not, I don't even know why, like, but anyway. So I went to those three foods and honestly, within two days, the blood stopped in her nappies. Like it was turning into like normal yellow, newborn stills. And she started settling down. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. So at this time, obviously you're still breastfeeding.

15:32
Yes, yes. This was like, this was like she was about maybe four months old now. Yeah. And then, and then I thought, okay, cool. Now I can start reintroducing foods. So then like, two days later, I introduced chicken straight away. The blood was back. Oh, yeah. Unbelievable. Yeah. And then I was like, okay, maybe not chicken. So then I'm like, okay, Swede, everyone talks Swede is like so low, allergenic. No, couldn't do Swede. So and I kept, I was too eager to try new things.

16:00
I needed to give her time, her gut time to rest. And it was so inflamed. Yeah, and at the time when people knew that this is what you were doing, like doctors, did they try to refer you to like a pediatrician, dietician? Yeah, I did, I got all the referrals. Yeah. And like, okay, so the pediatrician was just like, kind of like, this is awesome that you've got your daughter to a stage where she's...

16:30
growing now and isn't, you know, having nappies full of blood and things. So she was kind of like, just keep up the good work and then like, see you later. But then I'm like, well, we can't just eat three foods forever. But then the dietician was kind of almost the opposite. And she was like, you need to be introducing new foods. You need to start introducing them now and you need to try this. You need to try this. And I'm like, but when I try that, we're back to the start again. So again, she didn't really know how to help me. The pediatrician didn't really know how to help me.

16:59
All right then, we'll just crack on. So was it at this time when you were in your mum's group online and you were like, where to, that you got the advice to try anaerobic fermentation? Was it then-ish? No, I was in this mum's group for ages until someone suggested it. I don't think it was very well known in the mum's group. There must have only been a few of them trying it because that was like a year later. Yeah, oh wow.

17:26
It was in the mom's group, it was more just talking about things like gut rest and incorporating gut healing things, so making broth out of the lamb bones and stuff like that. But it wasn't until like a year later that some moms were like, hey, what about anaerobic fermentation? At first, I was really skeptical as well because I was like, so the three vegetables were carrot, beetroot, and cabbage. I was like, but she can't tolerate any of those.

17:56
And also Steph, like, so, okay, so if someone suggested to me, Miki, you need to try this thing. Like, I'm sure if I was as desperate as you would have been, I'm sure I would have gone onto it. But I am not naturally a person who's that creative, you know? Like, and I'm not naturally sort of wanting to make sourdough bread and sauerkraut for me is easier to buy than make, even though it's the easiest thing in the world to make. What is your personality like? I am the opposite. I am obsessed with making everything.

18:25
Have you always been that way? I think so. I have to hold myself back. Like if in the evenings I've done my work and then I'm like in the kitchen and there's all these smells, Matt's like, what are you making? Is it really necessary? He's like, come and chill out. Like, yeah, I'm the opposite. So that's why I was just like, yeah, bring it on. I'm making these tonics, you know? Yeah, although to your point, you were skeptical because you were like, well, gosh, if she cannot tolerate cabbage, carrot and beetroot, what the hell? Exactly. I was like...

18:54
how is she gonna drink these? But I was just like, well, you know, I'll give anything a go. And honestly, I don't know why. I don't know if it's because they are fermented and it's also in such small doses, especially when you start, but she was fine. She was fine with them. Cause lots of people do message me and they're like, oh, I don't want that one cause it's got cabbage and I can't tolerate cabbage. And I'm like, don't knock it until you've tried it because Clover couldn't tolerate anything. Now we're talking tonics, right?

19:24
Like it's not sauerkraut? Yes, exactly, it's tonic. Okay, okay. So when someone said anaerobic fermentation and you were like, oh, okay, I'll give this a bash. Like, why would this work? Okay, so basically it's fermenting. I'm gonna keep it really simple, but with our oxygen present. So we use special air locks so that no oxygen enters the tank.

19:51
and therefore that's creating a low histamine ferment. So lots of the fermented foods out there are so amazing, but they might be quite high in histamine, which some people, especially some people with gut issues can't tolerate. So these people with gut issues are being told to like add in fermented foods, and then they're adding them in and they're like, I can't tolerate that. So they can't have it, but because the tonics are low in histamine because of the anaerobic fermentation, lots of people find that they can tolerate.

20:20
the tonics. I mean, not everyone, you know, some people, there's always going to be some people who can't. And also some people, and also people are going to have to have different doses. Some people can tolerate a smaller dose and some people can tolerate more. But we always say, it's not about having the upper dose. It's about having the dose that your body can tolerate. Yeah. And I guess it would be for anyone listening who wants to try it, it would be starting small and working up. Yeah, exactly.

20:47
And then if you're having any uncomfortable symptoms, like let's say gas or loose stools, then bringing it back down. So Steph, like, cause I think about how I would be in this situation, I'd be like freaking out that oxygen accidentally got in. Like, so like you, obviously you got the equipment and you were feeling confident of your ability to successfully do the fermentation. Did you, were you sort of a little bit anxious?

21:15
that you would try it and it wouldn't work? Do you mean like when I was making them or when we launched them to other customers? No, no, for you and Clover, were you initially like- No, because I was just like, we've got nothing to lose. Yeah, okay, good. Like, it can't get any worse, you know? I was just like, we might as well. Yeah, yeah. And so, how much of that did you initially start Clover on? Okay, so there was the carrot, the beetroot and the cabbage. So when we first made them,

21:45
we'll go into this one, but they were three separate bottles. Yeah. And she had half a teaspoon of each a day. And I had like, I think I started on one tablespoon of each a day. And then we built up to her having one tablespoon of each a day and I was having like 50 mils of each a day. Okay, okay, cool. And we carried on with that for the four weeks. Amazing. And then after that four weeks and you started reintroducing foods and you're like,

22:13
Oh my goodness, I can see, you know, this is really like, wow, what a shift. Did you tell your doctor and your pediatrician and your like, I didn't. Someone's asked me that and I'm like, maybe I should have, but I think I just, I was so caught up in it first of all, that I didn't even think about that. And second of all, I was just like, oh my gosh, of course, they're just going to be like, this is just no, you know, this, what are you talking about? Yeah. And did it make you dive into the science?

22:42
or application of, and when I say science, I'm really mindful that there's a ton of science in that probiotic area, but this type of science takes a lot of money to actually create randomized controlled trials and all the research. So I'm not sure of the basis in that sense, but did you sort of dive into the mechanisms and stuff? No, I don't feel like I did. That's when I just was like, so I was just like...

23:11
I'm so happy that we found something to work for our, that was working for our family. And we just carried on and just started being free to live life, not taking our own food everywhere, letting the kids eat things at parties, you know? It was just this amazing change for us. And then that's when my friend, Mary Ann, so we went on a holiday to Stewart Island together and I'm obviously like carting, because at this stage we were still always having them now.

23:39
that's not necessary for us, but we love them. We have them all the time anyway. I'm carting them on this like little plane to Stewart Island and she's like, what are those? So I told her the story and she was like, oh, I wanna make those. So anyway, she started making them too. And then after a few weeks, she's like, oh my gosh, Dev, I think we could turn this into a business. I think we need to get this out to New Zealand. This could help so many people. And at the time when we started, then we turned it into Cloth for Men's.

24:07
We were like, okay, we know that it can potentially help people with allergies and intolerances, but we had no idea what else it was gonna help with. So we used to get people messaging us like, hey, can it help with this? Can it help with this? And we had to say, look, we don't know. Why don't you give it a go and see? This was like really early days. And then a few weeks later, we'd get these messages of people with like photos of their skin, like their ex, McClare D'Arp or.

24:34
They're like, my constipation's completely eased, just all these things. And we were like, oh my gosh, these are even more magic than we thought. So that's interesting, and particularly the constipation one, because I talk to a lot of people who have issues with constipation, which seems to be related, a couple of things in my clinical population, at least anyway. One is that sort of undiagnosed food tolerance, which you can't...

24:58
Pretty much, so which of course is resolved once that food has been eliminated. But actually constipation can happen for so many other reasons as well, like stress and high protein diet. As you might know, Steph, I'm all about sort of getting in decent protein load and a lot of people struggle. So constipation, is this one area where you feel your tonics can be super helpful for people? Oh my gosh, like I honestly don't think we've had, we might've had one, okay, one.

25:28
case of constipation that hasn't been resolved by the tonics. I used to be able to say none, but there has been one. Always outliers. Otherwise, whether it's a kid, whether it's an adult, we get messages within two weeks. And they're like, I'm regular, my constipation's eased. It's just amazing. That is absolutely huge. And just by adding them in as well, not making other changes. Yeah.

25:57
does, how do the ferments work in the gut? Like what, what do we know what's going on? If you like this, no, I feel like this isn't the area that, okay, all the stuff around testing is that's kind of our next step. Like at the moment, everything is kind of anecdotal, you know, we don't really know exactly how they're working. And we don't really know exactly what strands there are. But to be fair, each batch would have different strands because

26:27
It's just made with beautiful organic produce, water and sea salt. We're not adding any starter cultures. So that's kind of our next step we're hoping to do is the testing. Yeah, amazing. I follow a guy, Michael Ruscio, and he's amazing and he's all about gut health. And in his experience, he's got a great book actually, Healthy Gut, Healthy You. And

26:50
it sort of almost runs contrary to some of these other protocols like AIP. He's like, let's just keep this as simple as possible. You know, so that's his whole sort of premise. And in his read of the research, he's like, you know, there are these particular strains that might do XYZ, but ultimately it's a genus. It's the actual family. So you say you're not sure about what kind of strains that might not even be important. It might even just be that the overall family of probiotics that you've got in there are actually doing the work.

27:20
each batch does have different strains is really helpful because you're not just getting like certain ones each time, you're getting a diverse range. Yes, 100%. So your friends like, hey, we should make a business out of this. You go home and talk to Matt, what's Matt say? He's just so positive. He's always just, oh yeah, go for it, you know? So how did you say, I'm really good with that? I think I was feeling like, I don't think I realized what I was getting myself.

27:49
into though, as in with already two under five at home and then soon three under five at home and starting up a new business. Crazy. I don't think I realized what I was getting myself into. No regrets, but yeah, it's been a busy time. And is it just you Steph or is it your friend involved as well? There's quite a few of us now. So yeah, Mary-Ann and I were the co-founders and then

28:16
We rep, Mary Ann, so then it, cause at first I was making it in my Wanaka home kitchen, but then we soon realized we need to, we need a proper fermentary. We were like, is it in Auckland or is it in Wanaka? It made sense for it to be in Auckland for so many reasons. So then Mary Ann was making it in Auckland. We soon realized we need, we need a head fermenter. Yeah. And then we found Georgia, who is a head chef. She's like a super well-trained chef.

28:44
and really interested in fermenting health and wellness and also like a certified mom and baby nutrition consultant. So just really a great fit. And we met Georgia and Georgia started and Georgia just changed the game. Because she, you know, we just, we knew how to do home ferments but Georgia knew how to scale a home recipe. And not only that, but Georgia learned how to, Georgia knew how to create new products because.

29:11
We just, I just knew what I knew, which was the carrot, the beetroot and the cabbage. We had had some feedback from customers that they found it a bit too much admin having all three once a day. So Georgia started trying, fermenting those three vegetables together and then bottling them in what we called the blend. And then we started rolling that out to customers to try to see if they continued to get the same results. And they did. And they preferred the flavor. Like everyone loves the beetroot,

29:40
The cabbage sometimes was slimy. It's just high-impept and it's just what it was like. The, sorry, that was the carrot, sorry. The cabbage, you know, some people like sauerkraut, but some people don't. They're like, it's just too cabbage-y and fatty. The blend is a lot more mellow. So the blend has been a game changer for us. And then as we're going down all these fermenting rabbit holes, we couldn't ignore that we kept seeing so much information about

30:09
fermented turmeric and there are quite a lot of turmeric tonics out there, but I don't think there's any fermented ones and So then that's when Georgia also started playing around with a recipe for a fermented turmeric tonic Which is now turmeric ginger lemon and pepper the pepper in there to help with the absorption of the curcumin and And that has been such a successful addition to our little range and you know what we're finding little is good like

30:38
We don't feel like we need to keep introducing new tonics when the ones we've got are working so well already and just to not over-complicate it. Yeah, nice one. I think I've definitely tried, I've tried the beat. I think I've tried all of them. I think the beat was probably my favorite, but I am a fan of the turmeric as well. Yeah, it's really fiery and strong. It's funny, with the turmeric, people either love it or hate it. Like they either like, I love it so much. That's why we had to create a turmeric-only pack for these people.

31:08
or they're like, no, it's just too strong and fiery. And that's like, kids find that one harder, but kids, you can definitely give them the beat and the blend either straight or sneaking it in, but the Tumorix is a little bit stronger. So for people who aren't sure how they use these, obviously you can take them as a shot if you start at that small dose.

31:30
Can they go into hot foods? Is it gonna kill the bacteria? What are some of the rules around it? So what we recommend is, so you can either have them straight as a shot. You can definitely mix them into anything cold or raw, like a smoothie, a dip. We don't recommend to heat them, but what you can do, I say to lots of moms, and this is the ultimate hack for kids who are not enjoying the flavor at the start, is let's say you're having the kids having bolognese.

31:59
you get their bolognese, put it in their bowl, leave it to cool down a little bit, just like how you would before they would eat it anyway, and then stir it in. So you're not heating it, you're just adding it to their warm meal, and also they can't taste it because the blend is just a little bit salty, so it just adds a little bit of saltiness to it. So that is the ultimate hack for sneaking it in for kids. But lots of kids do like it from the start, and if they don't,

32:29
they either come to, this is adults as well, come to like it, their taste buds change as their gut microbiome changes, or they end up wanting to do it because they're seeing mom and dad doing it. Totally. And they're like, oh, I wanna do that. I wanna be having these shots, or I wanna be racing mom to the bottom, or having this cool glass and straw to drink my special drink. Because one thing that our girls love is like, we call it like the cocktail, and they think it's the biggest treat in the world, and it's sparkling water.

32:59
beet kvass, lemon, ice, and extra optional is cucumber and mint. Oh, delicious. Optional extras. That's what I was going for. Optional extras. And they think that's the biggest treat ever having the cocktail in summer. They're like, she's amazing. Yeah, that sounds so good. You know, Steph, I think what you just said there just sort of made me think about adults and I speak to like, and the whole idea that your taste buds do change.

33:27
And people forget this. So when they start something, whenever they start any new protocol or diet, or try to shift away from that, what they usually eat, they are always going to struggle because your taste buds are expecting something else. But as you just said, your bacteria, your gut microbiome has actually been feeding off this diet that they've been having for however many years. And now they're trying to make a change. And I think it is a hard shift.

33:53
your product could be super helpful for people who are trying to make that diet shift. It's almost like a help change the microbiome to change the taste buds in addition to changing the food. I bet you there's a real application in that space as well. Because in New Zealand, we're not brought up with this savory, sour flavor profile. It's not part of our culture, but it is part of most other eastern, yeah, so western countries.

34:23
We don't have this sour, savory flavor profile. We're not brought up with that. So when we try it, we're like, oh, this is different. But other countries, like, let's say Korea, they're having kimchi from young ages. And then, yeah, Germany, they're having sauerkraut from young ages. So that's just a flavor profile they're used to. We're not used to it, but I think it should be part of. Yeah. The fermented foods should be, yeah,

34:53
cultures, flavor profiles because it can do us so much good. Yeah. Is there unami in your flavor profile in your tonics? Steph, you just mentioned sort of salty sour, you know, that fifth flavor. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like that is in the blend. Yeah, I agree, actually. Totally. Steph, so you've obviously, you've got three children now. How were you in that third pregnancy?

35:21
So in that third pregnancy, I was definitely aware of gut health by now. Like I honestly didn't know. Like I generally felt like I was quite a healthy adult those like years leading up to my pregnancy. But looking back again, like I was saying, I didn't really know anything about gut health. So actually I don't feel like I was super healthy.

35:47
But I feel like after I'd gone through that journey with Clover, not only had I been having the ferments, but I'd been researching so much about gut health. And like I said before, I'd said to Matt, hey, if we're going to have another baby, we both need to make sure we're keeping our gut health in good shape. So yeah, we were both really conscious, preconception and then pregnancy hours, drinking the tonics and also...

36:16
I mean, I do get sick in my pregnancy, so I couldn't eat ideally, but I was like, well, I'm at least gonna do the best I can with what I know. Yeah, nice one. Yeah, like I'm not one of those people who doesn't get sick and can just eat normally. Like if it was up to me, I would have just lived off salt and vinegar chips and sour lollies. But I was like, no, I'm gonna at least try and find, like I'll do like salt and vinegar, series organic rice.

36:44
crackers if I need like stuff like that I was at least try you know yeah and bring in some other yeah and nourishing things that I could tolerate. Yeah nice one and then um and then post pregnancy breastfeeding what is your third child's name I don't know that you've said Stella Stella yes you did because I mentioned how what an awesome name that was and Stella was fine? Absolutely fine I was so I don't know I wasn't nervous I thought I felt confident that things are gonna be better.

37:14
But I didn't know they were going to be that good. Like I thought, oh, maybe she's going to have an issue with Derry, or maybe she's... Or maybe she'll be mildly unsettled. But I was just like, oh, my gosh, it was so amazing getting to experience a settled baby who slept. I can't even imagine. It was just... It's such an incredible feeling, and I felt... I still feel so grateful that I got to experience that after, honestly, being traumatised by it.

37:42
Oh, I completely understand. Completely. We laugh about it now, you know, like we laugh about it around the dinner table. Yeah. The girls know, you know, that it was pretty cool. Yeah. And Steph, when did you launch? Oh, okay. I feel like it was about just over three years ago. So we were in basically the throws of, right, like if that's the case, that was 2021 when

38:09
the whole country, but then Auckland went into that massive lockdown. Yes, running the business during that was interesting. Oh, I can imagine. Were you like, did you invest quite a lot, obviously time and resources, but were things on the line for you? Were you like, God, if this doesn't work, it's... I think because it was such early days for us, we were kind of okay.

38:30
Yeah, because we weren't doing massive numbers by then. And so like when we did have to close or whatever for a week or two weeks, whatever it was, it wasn't like the end of the world. I think now if that happened, we'd be like, ah. You'd be like any small business, right? Like, hold the crap. Exactly. But I think because we'd only just started, we were like so small. Yeah, amazing. We could kind of get through. Yeah, and you mentioned that when you went to Stewart Island with your friend Mary Ann, you were taking like,

38:58
your tonics with you because you needed them. Did you not need them? Do you not need them every day now? So what is that sort of- We haven't needed them for years. Oh, interesting. Like, honestly, I feel like I'm trying to think how long we had them before until I felt brave enough to go without them. I don't know, let's say six, maybe six months. After six months, I think I was like, okay, we're going away this weekend. I'm not going to take them. And then we're fine. And then we'd go away for a week and I wouldn't take them.

39:28
and we'd be fine. Like it was just kind of like that. And then I think I got to the point where I was like, we don't actually need these at all now. But obviously we really want the benefits still of just keeping our gut healthy and strong and our immune system. So we do still have them regularly. The girls like them a bit too much where I have to, if I'm having a shot and they've already had some, I'm like, I'm just gonna hide because otherwise they're gonna demand more and you know.

39:55
Yeah, I mean, it's not like it would be bad if they had too much. It's just, I'm like, we only get, we're in one account. I'm getting them from Auckland now. I'm not making them myself anymore. So we only send ourselves a certain amount each week. Yeah, yeah, totally. They've got to last. Hey, random question, but what happens to the vegetables? Like, can you sell them as something? Yeah, good question. So you can't, we have looked at using the vegetable pulp for other things, but it's just not yum.

40:25
So what we do, so we get our vegetables from an organic grower in Palmerston North. He's so passionate about what he does and he's so lovely to work with. And then all our food scraps either go to compost or one of our lovely ladies, Louise, her cows. Oh, brilliant. So we're not like putting it in the bin. Yeah. Yeah, we can't, we've tried but... Okay, now that's good because in my head... Not going down the tree for eating the vegetable pulp. For sure, because I was thinking...

40:54
what's anaerobic fermentation, but I wonder whether you can just like divvy it up and have like sauerkraut and tonic. Yeah, I know. No, because yeah, some people are like, can I eat? Yeah, eat if they're trying to make their own, let's say the beetroot. They're like, can I eat the beetroot? And I'm like, you can, if you want. But I'm like, it's probably not going to be delicious. Yeah, yeah, because all the goodness has been bleached out. It kind of goes all soggy. And yeah, I'm like, if you want to eat fermented beetroot, I'll tell you how to make that. But maybe don't eat the beetroot.

41:24
Yeah, from the kamaas. Yeah, no, that totally makes sense. Now, obviously, you've just said that you want to keep the business really, like you're really happy with it being smaller and things like that. Do you have plans for future products or flavor combos or anything that you want to share with us? No, at this stage, we are more about just reaching more New Zealanders and growing with what we've got. Like I said, just because.

41:51
The tonics we've got are working so well for us and others. And we just want to, yeah, get, spread the word because there's so many customers that message us and they're like, let's say, let's say conservation. They've been constipated for like seven years. Let's say, you know, not the whole time, but on and off. And then they had the tonics for two weeks and they're like, I wish I'd known about these sooner. And we're like, those are the people that we want to reach. People that could benefit by just bringing the tonics and not making any other changes.

42:19
and it's like life-changing for them. So that's more our goal. And so like, I feel like I've been quite under the past few years with all the girls at home, you know, Stella's two now, so I feel like I'm just coming up to breathe. And so this year, like we've started expo. So we did our first expo, the Go Green Expo, Matt and I flew up to Auckland and left the kids and did that together. And then we're doing the baby show in a few weeks. So like...

42:47
starting to do more things like that. And also starting to like work on kind of more support protocols. Like at the moment we've got a four week gut reset, which is like four weeks of deliveries of tonics and an ebook, but we've been really wanting to also go a bit further and turn that into like a support program. And then also we've had a lot of demand for like a post-antibiotic protocol. So a pack or which packs to get after you've had antibiotics and then some other.

43:16
things you can do alongside. So kind of more going down those routes than like new products. Nice one. And I guess when you are able to get that testing done, you'll have more clarity around the type or like the family of probiotics. You'll be able to make some good sort of recommendations and stuff around that. Yeah. And you know what? I just feel like protocol, like there absolutely will be people who will need protocols. But then there will be people who

43:46
from what you've described, who will just benefit from putting them into their diets already to see the impact. You're right, people have nothing to lose. And that's the thing we do say to people though, is try them for four weeks because some people will just order one pack and then maybe just stop there. But we're like, it's better to try them for four weeks. That's what we did with Clover. And that's what we find for our customers is like, kind of like round like...

44:14
say three weeks is when people, most people have started to see a real change. And if you've only done one pack and it's lasted you like two weeks, one to two weeks, you're selling yourself short because you're not giving your body time for the natural, for the live cultures and the digestive enzymes to build up and take effect. I agree. Yeah. If you're going to do it, try it for four weeks, not just one. Yeah. Yeah. That's such good advice. Otherwise you don't know what you could gain. Yeah.

44:44
Some people will see results within a week and that's awesome, but I always say, hey, give it four weeks if you're going to give it a shot. Yeah. Amazing, Steph. And that makes me think, because my gut is fairly fine, I think, but sometimes it does get put under the pump with regards to- Yeah, like every one in the world we live in, we can't always have a perfect situation in our gut living in the world we live in. Yeah. Yeah.

45:10
Oh, I love it, Steph, and I really loved the products as well. And this makes me feel, I feel always, I get a bit like this, but I do actually feel really quite inspired just to do the four weeks, because you're right. You've got nothing to lose. Oh, thanks so much. Yeah, amazing. Steph, where do we find your products? Okay. So our website is clov At this stage, we are only online. Okay. Again, another thing that we might be looking to with growth is stockists.

45:38
at the moment online and then we're on Instagram at Clover for Ments and Facebook as well. That is fabulous and I love your Instagram page. It's really informative and it's lovely and as are your products. Steph, thank you so much for taking the time this morning. Is there anything else that we haven't covered that people need to know? No, I feel like we've covered all the main points and I just feel like, yeah, the takeaways which I've already said are.

46:03
You don't necessarily have to change anything else but just simply bringing the tonics in makes such a big difference. Yeah, amazing. Thanks so much, Steph. Thanks for having me. See ya.

46:24
Alrighty, hopefully you enjoyed that. And I just found it super fascinating, particularly the testimonials that came through for constipation. I mean, as a nutritionist, I get people struggling with constipation all of the time. So when I heard Steph mention that particularly the beak of us and how it was such a potent.

46:45
solution for people, I certainly got a lot of my clients onto it. And as Steph said, you do need to use the tonics for around four weeks in order for them to sort of start seeing effect. And I guess that's just a really important point to reiterate because you don't just want to use them for a week and think that they're not doing anything. To remind you again of the discount code for New Zealand listeners, that is Mickey.

47:12
10 that's capital letters MIKKI10 M-I-K-K-I-1-0-10 and for the international listeners they cannot ship internationally but Clover for me to have an ebook and I've got the link in the show notes for this show for you to be able to make your own tonics and don't be scared by that I mean certainly not something that I have a lot of skill in but it's certainly something which lots of

47:42
Alright team, next week on the podcast, I speak to Paul Taylor, who is an exercise scientist, a neuroscientist, and he is currently doing his PhD, all about physical activity, the brain, your habits, and all of the things. Super great conversation. And I have a new webinar coming out on Wednesday, 18th of September. I'm running it twice. It is free.

48:09
It is unlocking metabolic mastery. It is a science-backed solution to your fat loss goals. And you guys know that I do this in the lead up to my Monday's Matter program. That is kicking off end of September as well. But I also love giving value. And I would love it if you signed up, if you need any extra strategies to help with your sustainable fat loss solutions. And we will also pop a link in the show notes to that, or you can sign up over at my website.

48:38
or ask me about it in my DMs over on Instagram, threads or Twitter @mikkiwilliden or Facebook @mikkiwillidennutrition Alright team you have the best week. See you later.