Transcribed using AI transcription, erros may occur. Contact mikki for clarification

00:03
Hey everyone, it's Miki here. You're listening to Micopedia, and this week on the podcast, I speak to Meredith Teranova. Meredith is a performance nutritionist who is based over in the States, in Lethal actually, and we have our discussion on nutrition for ultra running. Meredith's background is in gut-related issues for athletes. That's what she did her masters on.

00:31
and she herself is an ultra runner. So we chat about her experiences in her racing and also how she works with her athletes. We also discuss her masters around gut related issues. We talk about how she helps her clients have better nutrition experiences during ultra running. We really talk about the nuts and bolts and also how to save it when it goes wrong, which can really be a performance limiter.

01:01
for anyone during a race, you know, you rock on up to the start line as trained as you can be, and then it all goes pear shaped. So we talk about how to minimize the likelihood of that occurring, but also what to do if you do experience gut related issues during a race. So Meredith Terranova is a performance nutritionist to many of today's top ultra runners, and has been helping

01:30
since 2004 and these range from losing weight, wellness nutrition, race nutrition, training and recovery nutrition, of course gut related issues, using a real world nutrition approach. So I think you're really going to love this conversation if you're an endurance athlete particularly in that trail running space. I've put links to where you can find Meredith in the show notes at her website.

01:59
eati and also have a link to her Instagram account. Before we crack on into the interview though, I would like to remind you that the best way to support this podcast is to hit the subscribe button on your favourite podcast listening platform that increases the visibility of Micopedia and amongst literally thousands of other podcasts out there so more people get to listen to the experts that I have on the show such as Meredith.

02:27
Alright team, enjoy the conversation.

02:32
Meredith, thank you so much for taking time to speak to me this morning about your work working with athletes in sports nutrition and particularly gut health, but also just running, you know, and ultra endurance running, which I know you not only are you, you know, a competitor in, I believe your husband is as well and it's just your community. First of all,

02:56
Can I just know a little bit more about your athletic background, Meredith? So how did you get into the sport and where are you at now? Sure. Um, funny enough, I started running in 2000, a January of 2000. I ran my first marathon. Um, I was not a runner actually growing up or through college. I kind of found it after college. And, um,

03:22
You know, did my first marathon as one does in cotton socks and cross trainer shoes, you know, not. And then, um, I got the bug. Um, you know, once you do a wine, you're just like, what's next. So I was a marathoner first and then became a triathlete, um, doing small triathlons, kind of locally. I was in Texas at the time. And then, um, we had.

03:49
an ultra marathon that was very close to our house. And everybody did the 50K to prepare for the marathon. I don't, it doesn't make sense, but it's flat and it was on very forgiving trails. And so everybody was like, well, instead of doing a really long run, just do this, let's go do the 50. Yeah. And then 50K became a 50 miler to me very quickly. And then, you know, instead of

04:17
thinking about it too much. I was like, I'll do a hundred miler. Again, that same trail network had a hundred miler, but my husband was not, like he was a marathoner. He was just dabbling in triathlon. And so we did not know hundred. This was like in 2004, 2005. And so this was before everybody ran hundred milers. So we went out with zero knowledge and the girl I had picked to pace me, I had gotten very cold. I didn't have enough clothes.

04:46
And she's like, well, you've really gone far enough. And so there was a fire and I sat down and like my legs totally locked up. And that was the end of my attempt at a hundred miles. And then the next year tried to say race again, and I was successful. And so within Western States was like all I could think about or dream and every, and this was when you could get in. Yes. And so I was, I got in.

05:15
twice easily and DNF'd for pretty epic reasons. One, I had just not thought about like all the dust on the course. And when you're running with piles of people, you kind of end up eating their dust, literally. And I had gotten to Forest Hill and I couldn't breathe. Oh goodness. And it's because like I had been eating dust for, you know, 60 miles. So that was

05:43
one DNF, the other DNF was not respecting the heat because I was like, Oh, I'm from Texas. I'll just run through this. And that's not the case. And then in 2010, I finished Western States, sub 24 and was done. Like that was the dream. And I got the time and I was like, I can move on now. And so my husband actually became the hundred miler after that.

06:08
as one does, and then I took on very long triathlons at that point, the longer the better. And so I did Ultraman. Yeah, and so I've done six, five, six, seven of them. Yeah, and then we moved to, in COVID, we moved to Colorado.

06:32
And there's not a pool near us. And Ultraman is really hard to train for because of the 10K swim without a pool locally. And so I've kind of moved on from that and just doing more reasonable adventures. And I'm actually doing the Chicago Marathon this weekend. Oh, amazing. And that, yeah. And then I'm gonna do a 55-mileer for my 50th birthday. And so...

06:58
kind of just shifted to like things that interest me, more low key race. I mean, aside from Chicago, more low key races. Um, yeah. And just seeing kind of what's, what's next. Well, I mean, all of that sounds amazing. And I'm, I'm like a marathon runner first, probably, and then has moved into trails because my husband really enjoyed the trail and I love the trails. Like I love being outdoors. I'm just not that great at it, to be honest. Like I'm much better on the road. Uh, but I've never been drawn to.

07:28
the 100 miles in part because I just think it's such a stress on the body. And also I don't like the idea of going too long without sleep. So I'm like, I couldn't even contemplate that. Although as you talked about sort of Western states, there is something about those types of events where you just get this little thing in your chest that goes, oh, can you imagine doing that? You know, like that would be an amazing goal to sort of train for. And then

07:56
complete. So I totally understand that pull. And then Meredith, how does this fit with your study? Because I know that you, or as I understand, you studied nutrition and dietetics, but then you came back to it and did your master's in gut health for athletes. So does this coincide with your own journey as an athlete? Interestingly, yeah, my degree was, I was chemistry nutrition in college and

08:24
but I was not a real athlete. I wasn't a runner then. It was just, I really loved the sciences and nutrition is a science degree. And so it just fit really nicely with kind of where my interests were. And then after school, I graduated in 98 and at the time it was not popular to go, unless you wanted to be in the hospital, it wasn't popular to practice nutrition.

08:54
And as I became a runner and as I became more passionate about running, I saw the need in the community. It was like, nobody's really focusing on how to implement nutrition practices to really do better. And at the time I was actually in a program for a graduate program in psychology. And I thought my shift would be more eating disorders. And...

09:21
It was, you know, it was like, interestingly, I was like, no, I see this act, this hole in our community in the running community. And so I was really finding that I could fill this need. And then obviously, everything's evolved so much. So that was about 2004 2005. So I've been doing this for almost 20 years now. Yeah, amazing. And then can we talk about your, your master's project looking at

09:49
the athlete gut. So first of all, actually, in your experiences with your longer events, obviously the Western States and similar events, but then Ultraman as well, which in some ways I wonder if it's not easier. I wouldn't say it's easier, but because you've got a lot more time if you're on the bike and you don't have that sort of the gut being jostled around with running, I wonder whether you did in fact find it easier. But like was...

10:16
What was your personal experience like with fuelling for your 100 mile? And how's that informed how you work with your ethics? I'm sort of going right there actually, and we'll come back to your masters. Um, well, interestingly, yes. So somebody just recently sent me a note and they were like, oh, I was a pro cyclist and now I'm doing hundred milers, you know, I'm in trial and error. And I was like, they're actually two totally different tolerances because

10:43
Sitting on a bike, you're not jostling your stomach. You can take in more. You know, I know now with all the high carb craze, everybody's pulling from the cycling world, but it's like such a different dynamic of what you can tolerate on the bike. You know, I was doing eight, nine hour bike rides and what I could tolerate over that time. I mean, if somebody had like rolled through and handed me a hamburger, I could have eaten it, right? And...

11:13
tolerance and I was racing in Hawaii so it's not like it was cold temperatures, you know, it's many degrees Fahrenheit and so it's hot. And so that tolerance into running, it's just so different, you know, and what we have kind of riding the wave with weather and effort and terrain, everything is so different.

11:39
in running and even for like myself, you know, again, this was 2010 going backward, you know, when I had failed at Western States, it was like, go back to the drawing board, go run some 50 milers, figure this out, and then extrapolate it to 100 miler. Interestingly, though, my nutrition has not changed. Even with all the products on the market, my

12:07
2010 Western States nutrition is if you looked at my race nutrition as I do a long race, it's not so different. I always tell people once you find what works, you can change the products, but you know your formula, what works and you can kind of dance with it. What I'm seeing with athletes now in this can kind of roll back to our guts and as we age.

12:35
what we need and what our body can do. Some people are like, oh, I had my nutrition in my 30s and 40s was great. I hit 50 and all of a sudden I couldn't tolerate any of it. And it's just because our metabolisms change, our bodies are changing. And so we have to kind of be able to evolve and change with that. Yeah, it is interesting. I'm glad you mentioned the sort of the where the science, that where some of the science is at in that elite professional.

13:04
Same thing. And the cycling realm of pushing up to 120 grams of carbs. And I certainly have athletes come to me and they've been not 120, but 90 to 100 grams of carbs. And they almost feel, they almost are like, I've just got to get it down because I know that this is going to help my performance. Not actually seeing on the flip side that in fact it's creating them a lot of GI distress and that's the thing that's making them go to the bathroom every 10 minutes or they're on the side of the course kind of vomiting up and then they're, you know.

13:33
they're on their way again. So how much of, and I'm just really interested to know what your thoughts are around, you know, what we see elites do versus what people who might not be in that category. Do you notice a difference with your athletes, Meredith, the top of the top versus people who might be more like me, who would just start to complete? Well, and I think it's, you know, we have this kind of interesting dynamic of people. You know, there's this group of people that are...

14:03
chasing cutoffs and honestly, their heart rate's up and working, they're working so hard and so they almost have to, you know, kind of play out their nutrition like somebody who's racing at the top, at their top level because it's just a different dynamic of what your body can tolerate. If your heart rate's up, you can't tolerate super high carb because to the point you'll be throwing up.

14:33
you know, going to the bathroom. I think one of the challenges we're seeing and we're seeing it in, you know, somebody sent me the breakdown of what people did at Western States and that they were so successful. Everybody nailed their nutrition. And I think Western States can almost create, you can create a formula because...

14:55
there are not that many things that change about Western states. Like, you know, it's going to be a hot day. You can plan for that. You can work within that, but you can get in a steady state. When you have like a UTMB, for instance, you know, there's humidity, there's, you know, it's different because you're climbing and then you're descending for long periods of time. And I think one of the things that's challenging elite athletes are people who are like, I must,

15:25
take in this 90 to 100 grams, is that they're not willing to vary that. To your point, they're like, I must get this in per hour because this is going, this is the key to the performance. And what they don't know is that doesn't have to be every single hour. You know, there could be some hours if you're descending and you're jostling or you're pounding your gut, maybe you take in a little less.

15:53
or you plan for that long descent and that you kind of time you're fueling a little earlier so that by time you get to the top of a climb, you're ready to descend and not have a full belly of carbs because anything in excess, you know, it goes to your gut to be digested. So it's like if your body's not actually using that 90 to 100 grams.

16:18
it's going to go to your gut. And that's where I think people find or are puzzled by their GI distress. And it's like, well, you, ex-person needed 90 grams. You actually only needed 80. And so those extra 10 grams, well, they're sitting in your gut, you know, need to do something. Yeah. Yeah. And so, so I guess one of the first things people might need to consider is, you know, what

16:44
course they're actually competing on and the fact that that may, like my flat marathon nutrition could look quite different to me doing a run up in the mountains that might have 3000 meter vert or something over 50k. Just the opportunities for fueling and the shifts there mean that I have to consider the terrain as much as the time.

17:08
terrain, timing, effort. Like now that people are actually racing each other, they're not just like time trialing and looking for a special time. They're like, everybody's like in a race together. And this is on the elite side, the more average person is maybe looking for a time, but if they're racing cutoffs, they're in their own race. And then weather.

17:34
You know, I think that people aren't playing with the variability of weather. They're just like, I trained this. I quote unquote trained my gut for this, but you trained your gut in a very, you know, almost scientific way because it's like when you go out for training runs. You can, you can calculate your effort. You can calculate so many things. You can have so many less variables thrown at you.

18:00
And then when you get in a race scenario and there are so many variables, if you don't know how to change things up on the fly, you know, I think that's where we're seeing some problems for people. Yeah. You know, I know that makes perfect sense. So I like that. That's that sort of your ability to be flexible and have more than just one plan when you're out there. Yes. And I think that that's people get so locked into what they've seen on the internet or, you know, what one.

18:27
research paper has said, you know, they haven't looked at like a full body of information, you know, there are lots of individuals that have done these sports for many years, you know, we can take from all of them, you know, I like to tell everybody that I start with a range and then within the range, every individual might be different within that range. And so it's like, you know, because honestly, if it was just a formula, then

18:56
Everybody would be like, oh, here's the formula. Amazing. I'll follow it. Great. I'm set. Well, no, because we see DNFs. We see people on the side of trails and roads vomiting. We see all the things. Yeah. So Meredith, where do you typically start your athletes at when they think about they want to fuel for a long event? So what are some of the?

19:19
key sort of factors that you talk them through and you mentioned a range, like, are we able to just to talk about what that might look like? Well, and I think the range could be like 60 grams, you know, depending on the person's size, weight, metabolism, you know, you can kind of get all of that 60 grams would be low and then upwards of 90 or 100. I will say that I don't hit very many people with 100. I haven't totally tagged on to that.

19:50
that new way. For me though, I always tell every athlete you can always add more. The unwinding of too much is a project. And so if you're in the middle of even a training run, it's like if you've taken too much, you have to either drink water, go without, you know, go to the bathroom, like pick the thing or ride the wave of nausea while you have too much in your system. And it's like,

20:19
You know, it's pretty black and white if you have too little, especially from a fuel perspective, you kind of start feeling like a little negative, you feel a little bonky. It's like, add some sugar, you're going to feel amazing. And it's easier to find that number by saying, let's start at a lower number, and then we'll add and then we're going to probably come up with an average of where you land. Yeah, nice one. And like I actually saw a study last week that

20:45
It makes intuitive sense and probably as practitioners this is what we do, but that showed that people who weigh more and have bigger body size can actually tolerate more carbohydrate. Even when you take on, because often carbohydrate in a race situation, we haven't really leaned towards the per gram, per kg body weight. Not the same way that you do in other areas of nutrition.

21:12
And is it your experience as well that smaller people may actually do fair better on a little bit less than some of your bigger athletes? 100%. And it's fighting the stigma. They're not actually under-fuelling when they do that. Again, they can add more. And some people are smaller and their engine burns super hot and they do need more, but actually...

21:36
those people do really well adding in a little bit of real food, adding some protein or some fat to slow down the burn of the carbs, not just throwing more carbs at it. Because if the engine burns hot, it's like then you're just going to burn through all those sugars really fast. We need to put something else in to kind of slow all that down a little bit.

22:01
Yeah, yeah, that's an interesting point because a lot of people I speak to, they come to me and they're like, I really just want to use real food when I'm out there on my run, which I totally appreciate that for them. But I am also weary and mindful that, you know, sort of late in the game and fatigue sets in and the gut sort of seems to shut down and like it makes it a little bit challenging. So when you're talking to an athlete, do you talk to them about only about carbohydrates per hour or do you also include calories per hour? Like how does that look for you, Meredith?

22:31
Um, it just depends on kind of what the person, you know, people hold on to one, like they want, they start the conversation with calories, they, you know, or carbs. And so I am super flexible of what feels good to them. Um, a lot of people have a better understanding of calories. Like that's just, it feels more natural unless they have really studied for themselves or they've spent time really learning, you know, about.

23:00
what carbs are doing and all of that. I get very delicate. I don't have very many athletes that I solely let them do real food. And the reason for that is because protein's not an energy source while they're out there exercising. That is heavy on the system. And then you also have to start worrying about fiber. I feel like fiber becomes a factor.

23:27
when people are like, oh, I eat all these bars and I'm like, okay, but you had a day of fiber, you know, in your run. You know, a day of fiber is a day of fiber. Like that's the math. You know, it's going to catch up to you a little bit. So I like to just interchange in some sugar, simple sugars, and then some more real foods for the people who...

23:52
Even the people who are like, I just want to do real food. I'm like, yeah, but let's also do some simple sugars in there. Like, let's not just rely on real food. And to your point, late in a race, chances are, like, I don't, I am always impressed with somebody who will do real food all the way through, but it's normally that person who's cycled in. If you've, if you're just on real food late, like late in a race, you're just.

24:18
It's going to be hard to chew, hard to really rely on. Like, this is, I need to eat all of this real food. I also, you know, really steer people away from relying heavily on aid station food as their sole source, because if you're in a hurry, chances are you're not going to grab 200 calories worth of food at an aid station. Yeah. Right. You might grab one quesadilla. You might grab a handful of chips. But it's like...

24:47
Okay, the math of that never works out for them. Yeah, yeah. So when you're counselling people on the aid station fuel, Meredith, are you sort of targeting that they're, like in between aid stations, they're targeting X number of calories or carbohydrate an hour, and then anything they add, is it a sort of, if I say a bonus, I sort of mean it's complimenting what they're doing, maybe on what they're feeling like eating, but it's not that reliance, is that what you mean? 100%, yeah.

25:17
even grabbing like a cup of Coke, right? It's like you're, unless you're filling your bottle with Coke and then there's an actual value to it, you know, you're at the kind of at the mercy of who poured that Coke, whether you got two ounces or whether you got eight ounce, you know, or whatever that, you know, 250 milliliters or, you know, you're just, you're not getting any accurate number.

25:44
And it's hard to really, in my opinion, I find that it's hard to really say this was a proper fuel to go through an aid station. But it's a great supplement, right? It is a great complement to anything you're already doing and also kind of to that point of you can always add more. If you're on the lower end and you grab chips and a Coke or something like that at an aid station, you didn't just tip yourself well overboard.

26:13
But if you're on the upper end of your intake and you go into an aid station and all of those things look tasty or you want some cups of Coke, all of a sudden you might have tipped yourself over. Yeah, yeah, such a good point. And where do you sit in terms of getting your carbohydrate and calories from fluid as opposed to relying more on gels or those sort of more solid-based?

26:42
sort of fueling options. I am totally open to somebody's preference. If somebody says to me like, I get hungry and like feel that stomach hunger, then I like to make sure we're complementing, you know, liquid calories with something solid or you know, gels or even shoes or something so that they don't have that empty stomach feel.

27:11
game, like during the hottest part of the day, it sure is easier to get liquids down more than, you know, eating half a sandwich. Like, you know, it's just, and it's easier on your body. I'm careful of kind of taking a look at the whole picture though, because if we have electrolytes and then we have some liquid calories and then we have gels, you know, I like to know what products we're working with. So then, you know, this is

27:40
This is actually, our race nutrition is an actual science experiment. And so we need to have spreadsheets of what we're taking in. People need to really keep track of the products they're using because some gels have sodium, some gels don't, some choose to, some don't. Some of the liquid calories have sodium, some don't have any. So you have to really pay attention to what you're taking in.

28:07
I've recently been taking a really close look at the gels on the market and the variability of the caffeine was actually one of the things that surprised me. There are a number of gels that have 100 grams of caffeine per gel. Oh wow, 100 milligrams of caffeine. 100 milligrams of caffeine, some have 35 milligrams of caffeine. So if your flavor preference have all 100 milligrams.

28:34
All of a sudden you could be having five, six, 700 milligrams of caffeine and the average large soda that's caffeinated has 80 to 90. So if you're thinking about, oh, I could drink soda all day during a race, well, one gel just gave you that. So you need to kind of be paying attention to what, and it's interesting to me how different all the gels are.

29:03
and that we need to be educated in. It doesn't matter what you're taking. You just need to know what you're taking. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I mean, I know that you are, I'm sure, I think I heard you have a conversation or a school something on your Insta about most recently, spring energy gels and just for what it's worth. And it doesn't matter, you know, the brand doesn't matter, the company, it's not nothing against the people or whatever. But it's just that the fact that it could happen with one.

29:32
one brand of gel that really sort of changes everyone's game plan because they think they're getting a certain amount of nutrition and then wondering why it's not working for them. So I mean, I think I'm pretty sure that would be a one-off, you know, and not something that would that happen frequently or in other brands potentially. But you do have to be so careful with that stuff. You have to be so careful. And then interestingly,

30:00
you know, spring, somebody just asked me yesterday about spring because they still have them at home and they're like, oh, I'm using them as my locale gels. And it's like, yes, please use them. Don't throw them away. You know, don't be wasteful. But you know, they revamped, she said, can I order them? And I said, no, because they revamped. And this is again, nothing about spring, but it's not just they didn't just put more carbs in. They actually, in order to bump the calories, they put oil in.

30:30
And so now this gel that had zero grams of fat has like, and I can't remember the exact number, but maybe like seven or nine grams of fat. And so the carbs didn't actually increase, the calories increased, but the calories increased because now we've added this oil or this fat. I don't know what it tastes like, but it's just, you've changed the whole dynamic of that actual gel.

30:56
And so what you've thought works for you now that that ingredient list may not work for you. Yeah, that's such a good point. And I mean, you mentioned earlier that sometimes we want to add in some fat to help sustain that energy release. But if you're just grabbing it off the shelf and treating it like, you know, a goo, for example, like that's quite a different product. It is. I was surprised that that was the route they took. I think, you know, it was probably the easiest change to make.

31:25
I know that the gels that they have, or they had at UTMB also, you know, and I have not tried them, but they also have fat in them. So it's just being aware of the products that you're using. That could work for somebody and they could be very tasty to somebody. But if that's the only gel you're taking, you know, and you take five gels and they all have nine grams of fat, that's a lot of fat. You know?

31:55
to then work through, you know, not just getting the sugar, you're getting this extra thing that your body gets to deal with. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Meredith, what's your experience using the likes of sort of Morton or UCAN, where they have a different formula for hydrogel, or I think, I might be wrong on that. Yeah, like, is it really just like an individual thing as to whether someone's going to tolerate that?

32:24
delivery system? Have you seen it make a difference? What are your thoughts on it? I think it starts with the taste. The hydrogel tastes different. The flavor itself is a very neutral flavor. I actually just, because they're going to be on the Chicago course. I was like, well, I'll try. I think that the texture and the texture of it is different.

32:53
called it a jello shot gone wrong. But it is kind of that jelly or I had a client said it's like jelly but they forgot to put the flavor in the jelly. So like you have to think about like, can I get that texture down first? The gel itself is great. It does the same thing. It's fructose and glucose. Once it's down, if those are tolerable to you, then

33:23
It's a great product, but you know, you have to, can I get this down first? Um, and I think that that's always like, factor one is like, you have to take the gel that you can take, like that it has to, you have to be able to get it down first. Yeah. Nice one. And what do you do with your athletes in terms of sort of training them through their nutrition plan? What I will say, I was meaning to say it earlier, actually, when you were talking about athletes should be super aware of what they're doing and spreadsheeting and everything.

33:52
In my experience with my athletes, they're super all over the data with their training, but with nutrition, it seems to be all over the show. It's like, well, I'm a human, I eat. Surely it's that simple. But I do think that people like the, I think it is shifting. People are understanding and appreciating what a difference it makes, but I think that the whole calculation side of it is still a little lost on people.

34:19
I do the numbers and I just have them send me a list. I tell them to brain dump after their long runs, let me know how it goes and then we'll look at the numbers. I always tell people sky's the limit. Start with the thing that when you look at companies like The Feed or just go online and search gels and see what flavor or product looks interesting to you.

34:47
You know, some of the packaging again, kind of in my recent looking at all these things, some of them are huge. And so then it's even like a factor of what do you want to carry? And thinking through kind of what's interesting to carry, what flavors like I love, the sweeter, the better. But for somebody else, they may want, you know, chocolates and vanillas and stuff like that. And so I never dictate that. I'm like, you go and...

35:16
You know, I kind of say, I send them off and I say, go experiment and I can make the numbers work on anything, you know, and then come back to me with like a pile of foods that you like, a pile of gels or shoes, and then let's make the numbers work. And some people will say, I just want liquids. And then I say, even to that point, go find the flavors you like, go find the textures, you know, some of the drinks feel thick. You know, you mentioned like a U can, you know, with

35:45
you know, some of those feel thicker than, you know, drinking something like a scratch that's just sweet. And so it's finding what's palatable to them, because when you think about even a marathon, when you think about being out there for multiple hours, you want to think forward of what's going, what am I going to get excited about later in a race? Like, let's be honest, none of this stuff is like most delicious or else we'd all be snacking on these foods. Like,

36:15
We're not. That's fine. But when we think about like, what am I gonna want, kind of think about your future self. What am I going to want many hours from now? And what do I think I'll look forward to? And that's where we end up landing. But I can't dictate that at all. And for some people, it's very easy. You can start eliminating things because maybe they don't tolerate multidextrin. So then,

36:44
You eliminate all the gels that have maltodextrin and there are all the products that have that. Maybe somebody doesn't tolerate fructose. So you eliminate all of that. So you can also make some quick eliminations based on people's tolerances. Yeah, sure. And do you ever, with any of your athletes, and I guess because your background and experience or at least your study background is on gut related issues, do you have athletes come to you and they're like, big...

37:15
their guts in a terrible state, yet they do want to run like 100 miles. You know, that's their, that's their sort of goal. Like how would you deal with an athlete like that? Like where's your starting place for someone who's like really can't tolerate a lot? Like, do you have any sort of key things that you might bring in or, or practices that help them tolerate foods better? What I'm seeing now, and it's interesting because, and I think I'm using a little bit.

37:42
of my master's study. But I think that sometimes it's not just about, you know, the race nutrition, like some people, and you have to start asking the questions like, you know, do you have gut issues like on your training runs? Or do you have, you know, do you get bloated? Or do you have, you know, irritable bowel or some issue going on? That's...

38:09
then you go into a race scenario and chances are not in your favor to tolerate anything. And so sometimes the discussion turns into really looking at daily nutrition and then really like we need to actually heal the gut on your daily focus. And once we can heal the gut, then you might be able to tolerate race nutrition better.

38:33
Um, and so I think that some people are so focused on that acute, like, I need to fix my race nutrition. And it's like, well, you actually have something else or a bigger thing going on. Yeah. No, that makes perfect sense. And then to what extent is, um, like if someone's training for a race, like to what extent do you get them to, uh, train with their race nutrition?

38:59
And what if they actually just can't tolerate a lot? Do you focus more on the fueling post-training to sort of make up for what they couldn't get on board whilst they're on the training run? How do you sort of deal with that scenario, Meredith? Because I get that a lot with clients. You know, it's interesting. I think sometimes the practice becomes, let's, well, one, if somebody's got their race nutrition down, I actually...

39:26
encourage them to take a break from it. I'm like, go to the grocery store, get some gummy bears, get some other stuff, have fun so that you're excited to take your race nutrition, you know, when on race day. So that's for the person who's like, they've got it down. They don't need to practice and practice and take that same gel over and over again. For the person who has not gotten it down, you know, we do need to practice. And it doesn't have to be every run, you know, it can be

39:56
let's have focused runs where we're really working on your nutrition and then give yourself a break some other days, you know, just like, don't let this be a nightmare because some people are just like, I can't, I don't wanna think about this all the time. And it's like, okay, go just enjoy running. Like, and then you can, you know, do all the things you need to do recovery, make sure you have electrolytes, make sure you're hydrated. And then like, just give yourself a break sometimes.

40:25
You know, I always think that if you're really trying to get your nutrition, like if you've had gut problems, I think you really need to focus on getting that bare minimum, you know, like that 200 calories and, you know, really shoot for that because if you think that you're gonna do, you know, people love fasted runs and I love that it's losing popularity, but you know, people go out and take in the bare minimum.

40:52
And then all of a sudden they're shocked that their body can't tolerate the calories on race day. And it's like, if your body's not used to getting in the calories, like the tolerance is going to be so low. It's just going to feel like so much on your gut when you're trying to get it in. Yeah. And definitely I feel like athletes almost like, I feel like there's a time and a place to do that faster training.

41:19
for at least maybe an hour of your run, you know, like where you're working on that fat metabolism. But where athletes tend to do themselves in is that they go for, you know, they can run for four or five hours without, you know, because your body's just this amazing thing. And they're like, oh, well, if I can do it, I should do it. And then they just put themselves in a metabolic hole, like for the rest of the week and the rest of their training is really impaired. Yeah. And I would like to remind people that everything you do has a cumulative effect.

41:49
Yeah. You know, if you get super dehydrated on Tuesday and you don't really like take a step back and fix the problem, you're going to feel that on your Saturday long run. You know, if you don't do recovery every day and make sure you're getting enough protein, by time you hit Saturday, if you're in a big training block, like you're going to feel awful every time. You know, it's like, wait, it's like our bodies are aren't...

42:16
You know, we're not like dogs we don't forget, you know, it's like our bodies remember what you did the day before and they remember what you do day after day. And of course, athletes that have been doing this forever, they can probably get away with a little more here and there just because they're like, they know what their body can do, but also as we get older, we get away with so much less. You know, there's actually zero room.

42:42
and people get injured or people get sick and they're always like, oh, I'm so surprised this happened. It's like, well, potentially not. Yeah. And actually that's such a good point as well. Like people like to, if they're, you know, their diet, they're sort of zeroing in on, oh, if only I didn't have that on Friday for dinner. And it's like, well, was it Friday's dinner that was the problem? What's the fact that you didn't have breakfast on Wednesday? You know, like, you know, a big chunk of it.

43:08
can, yeah, yeah, it absolutely is that sort of accumulated effect. Meredith, how, what are some considerations for altitude and heat that, that you talk to with your clients and, and look, you live at altitude, do you live at altitude? Like, I do, I live just south of Leadville. So, yeah, so we're high. Yes. I think, so we did a, a 14-er actually in Leadville. Which one would we have done? I want to say it's.

43:37
Albert? Yes, we did Albert. Yes, yes. Albert's just outside our window. Amazing. That's what's closest to our house. Yeah, actually a surprising number of people were doing it in jeans. Like, like, people were just going up there in all manner of dress. But you know, so what are some considerations for people who who may not be as used to or as adapted to those conditions? Like, what should we be thinking about? So

44:02
I like to actually parallel heat and altitude together because the hydration becomes the most important. You can't do anything magical to determine how your body's going to feel at altitude, especially at high altitude. But what I have found is watching these races at high altitude is people come in and they forget that they'll say, oh, it's a cool, relatively cool day in the summer.

44:31
The challenge is at altitude that heat is magnified. And so, you know, like I see people DNF Leadville, there's another race near us. And it's because any section, they're not carrying three bottles. You know, they're just like, oh, it's a cool day. I only need two bottles. And it's like, no, but you're also at altitude. And so I tell anybody who's training in the heat, the hydration you use for the heat typically will parallel

45:01
getting you in really good shape, getting ready for altitude. And when I say hydration, it's not just water, it's water and electrolytes. And so, but I find that to be the, really the thing people mess up. Also, I, you know, to the fueling side, sometimes people over fuel, you know, your heart rate's higher. Again, the blood is like, absolutely does not wanna be at your stomach. Yeah. And so,

45:28
If you put too much fuel in your gut, it's like either you're going to feel low while your guts dealing with it, or you're going to get sick. And you know, one of the biggest issues that altitude races is the nausea. And do we like, do we counter that by doing small and often? Yeah, I like to call it nibbles. Yeah, nice one. So yeah, just having no and everything should be nibbles and sips like.

45:55
when we're thinking about any kind of race scenario, the best situation we can do or the best thing we can do is slow and steady and not kind of have any big bolus of drink or food at once. Because again, you can always add a little bit more. And if you're slow and steady and you're like, oh, I think I need a little bit more, add a little bit more. But if you've had 200 calories at once,

46:24
It's like, well, you're going to have to wait it out a little bit before you kind of add more to it. Yeah, yeah. No, that makes so much sense. And it feels to me like it's more of a, if you get into the habit of the nibbles and the sips, it's actually easier to adhere to your plan rather than thinking every half an hour, I'm going to put 25 grams of carbs in and then just sort of go that way.

46:49
And I'd say that that's probably the biggest thing that people need to train themselves to do is to be regular about the eating and drinking and kind of find their pattern. You know, nobody really wants to set an alarm. I know people do and good for them. But most people don't want to have alarms set while they're racing. And so just kind of finding your rhythm is the best thing you can do. Nice one. Meredith.

47:18
So you've got Chicago coming up. Like, are you someone who's like, right, I'm gonna do my marathon, then I'm gonna have my most favorite post-race meal. Like, are you that person? No, so my mom has this wonderful saying, which is like my favorite, everything in moderation, even moderation. And so I love that because I'm a believer that if we don't forbid foods,

47:43
if we really allow ourselves to have treats and just incorporate that in. Food is so joyful. During COVID, I was part of a bake club. You were, I saw that from your feed. Yes. Obviously, I love to bake, I love to cook, I love to eat. And part of that is not feeling guilty. We're having tons of rules attached to that.

48:11
The night before, of course, I eat the thing I know that's going to settle well. And, you know, or the days leading up, like I'm very committed to having a happy stomach on race morning. So I won't go out, but you know, I also am not going to be like, Oh my gosh, I ran so I deserve like, no, we deserve because we woke up this morning, right? It's like, if that's what feels good to us.

48:38
That's when you deserve it. Um, and so I, you know, I think that the dialogue it's, I always cringe when I hear somebody say, Oh, I did this race. So I, you know, I've earned this, you know, I can have my piece of cake. And it's like, no, you could have had your cake last week too. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. Nice one. And, and Meredith, um, any supplements that you are, like, obviously it's all quite individual, but do you have any staples that you would recommend most of your athletes?

49:08
look into or take or anything like that. So I always recommend that before somebody kind of starts a big supplement regime of any kind that they have baseline blood work. I really like for people, blood work tells such a good story, right, of what our body's doing. So I like to have people do blood work to kind of tell that story.

49:32
You know, if somebody feels like they're not getting everything they need and what they eat, then like a one a day vital, you know, multivitamin, but then being mindful of like, what's in that? Is there iron in there? Is there calcium? What do they need? What do they not need? And kind of being really diligent of making sure they're not taking in more than their body needs. You know, I support a probiotic. I find

50:00
very little downside to taking a probiotic and then, you know, lots of upside. But I also don't believe in spending a, you know, a small fortune on that because it's again, there's little downside. There is some nice research on the upsides of taking a probiotic. So, you know, that's nice. But I don't believe in spending like a ton of money taking supplements because everything can get so expensive. You know, we all think, oh, runners.

50:29
We just go out the door and I joke, oh, well, we just go out the door in our $200 pack, in our $300 shoes, right? And then our $5 gel. So it's like all of this inexpensive sport adds up very quickly. And so I'd rather somebody focus on getting really good food. And then if a supplement, if it's needed, of course, but if it's just to like perk up what you're doing, then just take a one a day.

50:59
Yeah, no, nice one. Meredith, are you taking clients right now? Yes, I am. Yeah. Yeah. Can you let people know more from how they connect with you? Because you just have a wealth of experience in the ultra space, both personally, but of course, professionally, because you've worked with some of the best in the sport, like most recently, the winner of UTMB. Like, so like, I feel like people who really want to take their nutrition seriously need to.

51:26
actually do so and get in contact with the experts in our space. So how can people connect with you? So I have a website, eati They can find me there. And then I'm on Instagram, sunshinemare23. I will say a lot of the content is dogs and baking. Yeah, very probably I'm less like.

51:54
in your face nutrition, but you can see our adventures. It tells a story. It tells a story of your life up and around Leadville and the people that you help and the, you know, I guess your philosophy, like, and I, you get a really lovely feeling from your Instagram account, actually, Meredith, I really, really enjoyed it. Well thank you. So I will obviously put links to both of those in the show notes.

52:24
quickfire sort of overview of how you approach nutrition. And if people want to dive a little bit deeper into some of the ins and outs of altitude and heat, I know you've got a couple of great podcasts on cookers and we'll also link to them as well. So people can get maybe a little bit more granular on that Merida. So thank you so much for being here. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

52:58
Alrighty, hopefully you enjoyed that conversation, particularly those people who may be undertaking an ultra run in the coming season, or you're sort of on your base phase, thinking about 2025. And as I said, I've popped links to where you can find Meredith in the show notes. Next week on the podcast, I speak to my friend Anna Hartman from Movement Rev, all about physical therapy and...

53:27
understanding your body better to get better results. And this involves her LTAP method, which we do a deep dive into, and I think you're really gonna love it. Until then though, don't forget that I have my Fat Loss in the Festive Season webinar coming up this Sunday. I am running it at 11 a.m. and at 4 p.m. New Zealand time to give you some

53:52
practical strategies on how to navigate the festive season with regards to your nutrition related goals. You can sign up for that over on my website mikkiwilliden.com. You can also find the sign up link on Facebook and Instagram. I'm at Instagram @mikkiwilliden, Facebook @mikkiwillidennutrition. Alright team, you have the best week. See you soon.