Transcribed with AI transcription, errors may occur. contact Mikki for clarification

00:03
Hey everyone, it's Mikki here. You're listening to Mikkipedia, and this week on the podcast, I speak to Anna Hartman. Anna is the creator and founder of the LTAP methodology, which is the Locator Test Assessment Protocol. And I've got Anna on to chat all about her innovative approach to injury prevention and rehabilitation. We delve into how she integrates osteopathic principles, nervous system considerations,

00:32
and traditional orthopaedic techniques to achieve faster, more effective recovery outcomes. Anna also shares her insights on treating complex cases, empowering patients through body awareness, and also teaching other healthcare professionals to confidently guarantee results using her techniques. This is such a great conversation I think for anyone, either health professional in that sort of physical therapy space.

01:02
if you're wanting to gain further insight as to how your body might respond in certain sort of situations like sport or overuse syndrome and potentially give you other avenues to explore if you get an injury. If you're an endurance athlete that might actually be when you get an injury. So I think you're really going to love this conversation. Anna Hartman is a renowned athletic trainer, educator and founder of the LTEP methodology.

01:30
With over two decades of experience in athletic training and manual therapy, Anna has worked with elite professional athletes across a range of sports, helping them achieve peak performance and optimal recovery through her innovative, holistic approach. Blending osteopathic principles, nervous system integration, and traditional orthopedic techniques, Anna's LTEP system empowers healthcare professionals to confidently address complex cases, reduce treatment times, and guarantee results.

01:59
Her work emphasizes the interconnectedness of the body, incorporating the viscera, nervous system, and biomechanics to uncover and treat the root causes of pain and dysfunction. And Anna and I spend a lot of time chatting exactly about this stuff. In addition to her clinical expertise, Anna is a dedicated educator, teaching physical therapists, athletic trainers, and other practitioners how to implement her methods through her highly regarded LTAP Level 1 course.

02:27
Her diverse background in manual therapy, yoga, pilates, and strength and conditioning informs her unique perspective on injury prevention and recovery. Anna is passionate about advancing the field of sports medicine by promoting a more holistic integrated view of the human body, and her work continues to shape the way athletes and practitioners approach health, performance, and long-term wellness. I have put links on where you can find Anna over on her website and Instagram.

02:57
and to her highly regarded podcast Unreal Results which is awesome. Again both for practitioners but also just people who are interested in understanding more about their body and so I've got links to all of those things in the show notes. Before we crack on into the interview though I would like to remind you that the best way to support this podcast is to hit the subscribe button on your favorite podcast listening platform. This increases the visibility of micipedia

03:26
And there might be literally thousands of other podcasts out there. So more people get the opportunity to hear from the experts that I have on the show like Anna. All right, team enjoy this conversation. Anna, hi, thanks for joining me. Hello. So happy to be here. This is super exciting actually, because you are a wealth of information on not just all things physical and

03:54
nervous system and emotional, but just other things in general, like whales and just, I don't know, fun stuff Anna. So I'm really pleased to get this opportunity to chat to you. So thank you. You're welcome. I'm very happy to be here talking to you. You're in the future. It's like a home of your day where you're at. I know. I often say that you're looking at your future. Yeah.

04:21
slightly sort of like, it's either a good or a bad thing. I'm not sure. And can we kick off actually, because I've got a bunch of questions as you know, related to your LTAT method, which of course we're going to detail for the listeners. But I think people would be super interested to hear just a little bit of your background and even your actual profession, because

04:47
even though you've got so many different elements to it, but doesn't quite align with what we here in New Zealand and Australia probably see as either a physiotherapist or an osteopath or something like that. So sort of lay it out for us. What do you do? That is true. I do not believe that athletic training is a profession down in Australia or New Zealand. I'm sure there's people that fulfill those roles. But yes, our profession

05:17
only United States and Canada has one they're called athletic therapists and then Japan and Korea also have a set of trainers, but those are the only countries that do So an athletic trainer is the bet the way I explain it to people who don't really know right out of the gate is if you're watching a sporting event and Like a sporting event in the United States and somebody gets hurt

05:45
the people who run out on the field to check on them first, those are the athletic trainers. So the athletic trainers are healthcare professionals that work typically for teams or universities, providing healthcare to the athletes. And healthcare to the athletes may look like physician extender role of like dealing with illnesses, or it is dealing with orthopedic injuries, rehabilitation, prevention.

06:13
triaging them. So like that's what's happening on the field, right? An athletic trainer is running on the field and basically triaging the athlete to determine like what happened, is this an emergency, what do we need to do next sort of thing. So we're the first line of care for them. So we have some skills of physician extenders, we have some skills like physical therapists, and then we have some skills like emergency medical responder, like you know.

06:42
Those kind of things. So it's a profession that has a really large scope of practice, which it's sort of like one of those quotes of Jack of all trades, like master of none. So it's like, we're pretty good in a lot of different things. We're generalists in that way, but more for the active population. But the active population looks like.

07:07
many different ages and many different abilities. So it really has to encompass that too. And then we work in coordination usually with a physician as well. So that's like our key team member is a physician. So very similar in the United States to, it's almost like if you would blend together a physical therapist and an EMT and like physician's assistant. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So,

07:36
And then me specifically, I have some other skills that qualify me for other things. I'm a strength and conditioning coach, which is pretty standard across the world, as well as I've been trained in the last 11 years doing osteopathic medicine type assessment and manual therapy through a...

08:04
education provider called the Bural Institute. So Jean-Pierre Bural is an osteopath and physical therapist from France. So I'm learning his work. So that's very hands-on manual therapy type of thing. And for me, even though I have that big scope of practice as my profession, I have like niche down to one like area of it. I only work with, I don't work for a team, I work for myself.

08:31
but I only work with athletes in the prevention or rehabilitation of their orthopedic injuries and optimizing their body for elite performance. So, yeah. So Anna, I'm going to ask you how you sort of developed your methodology, which you've almost half already answered that given the, I guess, the scope of both your, um, athletic training plus the addition of the osteopathy, um, medicine.

09:01
So how did you transition into, did you feel you needed more? Like when you started as an athletic trainer, did you not feel that you had the skills for what was Brithington in front of you? Well, yes and no. From the beginning, so the way that I became an athletic trainer back then, decades ago when I became an athletic trainer, there was three options of how you could become an athletic trainer. You could...

09:27
go to an accredited university that had it as a bachelor's degree program, and then take the test, the board of certification test to become a certified athletic trainer. Or you could do it as a master's level, entry level program. The same thing, go to a school that had it as a master's degree and then take an exam. Or you had this route, which was called the internship route.

09:54
that if you did enough hours and put together your own sort of like, made sure you checked the boxes of certain education in your curriculum at your university and had a bachelor's degree, you were eligible to sit for the border certification exam. So that's what I did because when I decided to be an athletic trainer, an undergrad student

10:16
University of Oregon where I went and did not actually have an undergrad program for it. So they had a graduate program for people who were already certified. And they had like a pre-med program, pre-physical therapy program that sort of checked the boxes of the classes. And then I did 3000 hours of internship under other athletic trainers. So it's a bit at back then it was a very like apprenticeship type of way to learn.

10:46
Yeah. So from the get-go, I felt like I was at a disadvantage because of that, because I didn't go to an actual athletic training program. So the grad school that I went to grad school specifically picked a school that had a very like rigorous education part of it, because I felt like I was lacking.

11:15
education was like everything that was presented is like, I learned this already in undergrad. So I actually did a better job than I thought of like preparing myself to be an athletic trainer and I got certified, you know, I passed the test right out of the gate. But then also, just who I am, I love to learn. And so I knew there was more to learn and I especially like knew we had such a broad

11:42
scope of practice, I knew that there was always, I mean, that's actually kind of what makes athletic training fun is like, you can, there's always something to learn because you have just so much. And yeah, at that time, I wanted to work in professional sports. And so I was seeking out internship opportunities with professional sports teams, and really realized that if I wanted to be in professional sports, I needed to know more about strength and conditioning.

12:11
And even though I wasn't gonna be a strength coach, like if I was working with the athlete, I just need to understand that piece more, especially from a rehab standpoint. And so that's sort of when I became, when I went down the path of getting certified as a strength coach and learning more into that world. And then it kind of snowballs. The more you learn, the more you realize you don't know. Yeah.

12:36
Yeah. And so the more you want to learn. And so I've always sort of been like that in my profession. And when I started learning osteopathic medicine type stuff, it was I didn't I actually got really good results already for my patients. What I thought. And, you know, I was in a job that was like the industry leader.

13:03
So I definitely didn't seek out the osteopathic stuff because I needed better results. I sought it out because I felt like there was something missing and it was highlighted by my mom being diagnosed with lung cancer and realizing that some of her musculoskeletal aches and pains that she had for decades before she was diagnosed were actually visceral referrals. And I had heard of visceral manipulation before from another colleague and I didn't think it was like worth investigating.

13:32
And when my mom got diagnosed and I sort of dove into understanding her diagnosis and her symptoms and like how is this happening? How does she have stage four lung cancer? That's when I realized like, holy shit, she's had it for a while. And her shoulder pain, her wrist pain, her finger pain, like everything the doctors and physical therapists labeled as orthopedic.

13:58
was actually a symptom of the lung cancer. And I just at that moment was like, I'm doing a huge disservice to my athletes, not understanding what's going on deeper, on a deeper level. And like, this could have easily been one of my athletes. And so I was like, I never again, will I not do a thorough differential diagnostic about, you know, assessment that includes the viscera. And so I sought out to learn it. And then,

14:27
Also watching her body change in response to the cancer, I just saw in real time how your dynamic alignment and posture has more to do with what's going on the inside in your environment than anything else. And I was like, holy crap, like, again, I'm missing a huge piece. And so that's what drove me to sort of learn that and start to integrate it. And it also turned out over the years of all this learning, right? There's been like,

14:56
so many continuing education courses in my past, but what one physical therapist pointed out to me that I worked with so elegantly, she said, Anna, you're really good at assimilating the information. She's like, you go to a weekend course and then you come back on Monday and you instantly start implementing it and easily see how it weaves in with what you already do. And she's like, she goes, I'm so in awe of that ability of yours. And she's like, I just thought I would let you know. Like I-

15:25
And I'm like so grateful that she did that because I had no idea that that was what, you know, like I knew I was smart and I knew I was good at practical application, but I didn't quite understand that that is like what my gift was. And when she pointed it out, I was like, oh my gosh, that is what I'm really good at. So yeah, so that's naturally what I did was kind of create my own methodology based on all that.

15:51
Yeah, that's amazing. And that is such a good point as well, because you can be the smartest person in the room with all of the knowledge, but it's an application of knowledge and the ability to then share it with people who can then go and do what it is. That is a real gift. So, in addition to being someone who's really good on the one-on-one with helping your athletes, clearly you're like an excellent teacher as well. Yeah, thank you. Yeah. And so let's talk about that then, the Locator Test Assessment Protocol, which

16:21
which I didn't even realize that's what LTEP's standard for until I, I just never thought about it. I was like, what's NNR and her LTEP method? Yeah. So, um, obviously you've just sort of, um, told us how you developed the methodology, um, but can you actually describe for people like what it is? Yeah. So, so what it is, it's a supplement to a standard assessment.

16:49
that uses some orthopedic tests to guide us where the body is protecting. Because when the body has something going on, which may or may not be where it hurts, it goes into a protection mode and it limits our mobility and it like, you know, checks our range of motion, it might alter our strength patterns, our movement patterns. And...

17:14
It does this because our body is like wired for survival. And so what makes us really great, unique human beings is that we have this ability to compensate for things that happen to us and to keep going. This is that drive for survival, right? And so sometimes the body is dealing with something and it doesn't quite, can't like fully process it all the way or like heal it all the way. So it just sort of like.

17:39
I picture it as puts it in a box and closes it up and keeps it safe, puts it on a shelf and is like, we'll deal with this later. You have all these layers of protection patterns going on in your body. The LTAP helps us to figure out where the most important one is. When we can start treatment at the most important spot that the body is protecting, it helps to shift their nervous system out of a protection mode into a.

18:07
rest and safety mode, which is where our self-healing capacity lies, as well as it changes their whole dynamic alignment. Because if you think about, so when the body is always protecting the important things that are responsible for our survival, so that means that the muscles and the bones and the joints and our musculoskeletal system.

18:34
is like a bodyguard for the visceral organs, the things that are more important. This is why our brain is in this hard container and our heart and our lungs are in another hard container is because they need extra protection because they're so vital for our survival. So whenever those organs are not functioning well, our body like splints the area, like it doesn't allow any movement through there because movement will affect the organs too.

19:04
you know, if an organ, if the organ is super, super like inflamed, let's say, the body's going to limit the mobility around it because it doesn't want you to stretch it so much that you perforate it, right? Yeah. And so when we can start treatment in those areas, it totally changes how people, their posture and their movement patterns because

19:28
I always explain to people, it's like, if I'm protecting something in my lungs because like I have allergies or asthma, it's almost like if my shirt just sort of like tightened up or wound up. So you could see how it would affect my opposite hip or my opposite foot, right? Because it's changing all these tension lines and these ability for your trunk to rotate or your hip to flex or extend. And so when we can identify that, we often fix the orthopedic.

19:57
drivers of whatever is having pain, like if they have knee pain. So that's what the LTAP attempts to do is it's a way for us to have some solid orthopedic tests that I say listens to the body and guides us where to start treatment. And so I sought out these orthopedic tests. I saw patterns in people when I was evaluating them.

20:24
And it matched up to what I was feeling in my hands. So in the osteopathic world, they teach you how to evaluate where the body is directing you through feeling, through feeling that t-shirt knot. But as someone who has operated in like Western medicine their whole life, like we need something a little bit more concrete than that, that feels a little like woo woo. And so I started noticing these patterns in the orthopedics and

20:52
these use of what's called inhibition tests that could help kind of let us know if the body likes something or not. And so I utilize those to create this locator test assessment protocol. And over years of teaching people my methods, I kept on telling them like, if you're overwhelmed by all the information I'm giving you, just make sure you get really clear on these like four or five tests.

21:18
Because I know if you do that and you start where the body wants you to start, like that's where the results actually come from. It's not the treatment tool you use, not the exercise you pick or the manual therapy thing you choose, but if you can figure out where the body is protecting and do it there, then you're going to get really good results. And then what happened is people listened to me and they started doing that and they started getting really good results in their patients too. Like,

21:44
we're talking like results within one to three sessions. And so I was like, oh yeah, like we're really onto something. And so it's just sort of like steamrolled into this thing, like its own course now, because it's sort of like the foundation of like, if I'm helping somebody with a complex case, I wanna know, I don't care so much about the complexity of the case in terms of like, how long they've had the pain or how many surgeries they have before that led to this or.

22:13
We know how many diseases they might have. My first question always to that clinician is going to be, well, where is the body directing you to start? Like where does the body think is the primary thing that matters? So it's like the foundation of like the language we speak of the body. And it sounds like the sort of origin is, or could be as much a physical issue as it could be like an emotional one. Like, yeah.

22:41
Mm-hmm, it can be an emotional one. So whenever we have an emotional, an emotion that hasn't been fully processed, well, even fully processed emotions, anything that happens to us, it's recorded in our tissues. Yeah, it's recorded in our brain and it's recorded in our, the rest of our body somewhere and there's no rhyme or reason to where it gets recorded, right? So like a memory of my dog dying might have been like stored in the fascia of my neck, right?

23:10
What happens is when it's emotions that are not fun to feel, we tend to not fully process them. And so when the body goes and stores them, there's like leftover like, I'm like, how do I, I don't even know, explain it. It just doesn't. Tension or what? It just doesn't, yeah, tension. It doesn't get integrated into the tissues as well. It's like not as hydrated. It just is like clogs it up a little bit. Yeah. And so,

23:37
Yeah, unprocessed emotions can be like a form of tension as well because of how they're stored in the physical tissues. Yeah. And I feel like people will recognize this if they've ever been someone who has, you know, been gone through a period of significant stress, right? Because you know, like that's like everyone, I'm sure can recognize how the body responds in us or even how the body feels when you're stressed. You're actually just thinking about it more from that. And it's

24:08
feels almost deeper than maybe what we are imagining, but it's not different, is it? No, I don't think it's different at all. And what you have with that even too is like, Jean-Pierre always talks about how different emotions are discharged in different organs. So there's every, in Chinese medicine, like cosigns this idea too, is like each organ sort of has a emotion that it tends to like...

24:33
be involved in a lot, like the liver is anger and the kidneys are fear, and so stress, like just anxiety is like the stomach, or small intestine, and you feel that. When you get anxiety, what happens? You get a little bit of nauseous. Yeah, yeah. Right? And so we've all felt the effect of emotions and stress on our organs, and yeah, so that is no different.

25:01
that is a true thing and our organs are like the function of them are operated by the autonomic nervous system and so no wonder right like our autonomic nervous system is responding to all of our environments external and internal and internal is not just what's happening in the organs itself but internal is also what's happening in our brain so if our if we're having a message from our brain

25:30
or angry or like whatever, that message gets transmitted to our organs from our autonomic nervous system. Yeah. And then the tissues respond. And it does sound like woo woo, but it's like, no, like actual science, neurophysiology. Yeah. And I feel like, you know, 20 years ago, this may have been looked at with more skepticism than maybe what it is now. Like, I'm not sure if it's just...

25:55
social media has exploded the information that's available and opened people's, um, sort of worlds to different ways of thinking. Yeah. And for better or worse, but certainly in this instance, people listening to this might better understand that than maybe what they would have like a couple of decades ago. Yeah, absolutely. And I, I share that in my courses a lot of times. I was like, it's not like the woo-woo stuff, the energy medicine. I was like, you can think it's woo-woo all you want. But

26:24
we can measure it now. Yeah, yeah. Right, like energy medicine is not like a made up thing. It is a measured thing. Like according to physics, you can measure the electricity in the electromagnetic fields that come from our body. So it's like, this is not, this is not, yeah, it should be more accepted. But yeah, it's new, but because technology finally is good enough that we can measure those.

26:51
things. In the past, it felt woo-woo because we didn't have the technology that can measure it. Now we can measure it. And so once we can measure something, you can start to understand it a little bit better. And by understanding it better, being able to measure it, you can harness tools, whether it's through manual therapy or movement or talk therapy or whatever it may be, to address it. Yeah. And I feel that's where Western medicine sort of...

27:16
lets people down a little bit is that we demand tools and evidence and the rest of it whereas sort of Eastern and Chinese medicine, not that it's gone on, it hasn't just sort of developed because people take a leap of faith. It's just part of almost their in-ground sort of DNA. They grew up knowing that this stuff worked, which we didn't really have that I suppose. Yeah. Well, and yeah, I knew that we were like very connected to the seasons and the light and the...

27:44
And all those things are being mainstream as if they're new information. I'm like, are you kidding? Like, and it's funny because when you do look at like, whoever the PR was for Western medicine, like give them like the most awards and credit because like if you look at how old Western medicine is, it's so young. Yeah. Like turn of the 19th century, like when surgeries were a thing and pharmaceuticals were a thing. Like it is it.

28:14
should be the thing that seems woo woo, right? Yeah, yeah, 100%. But yet it's flipped. And it's like, types of medicine, Chinese medicine and medicine doctors from like native cultures, indigenous cultures is like, that has been around for millennia. Yeah. Yeah, so it's like so funny to me. Like I'm like, it's actually opposite. Western medicine is the new like, making shit up as they go sort of.

28:43
And have you always been sort of open-minded, I guess it's open-mindedness that really probably allowed you to look for further information and et cetera. Like you're very science and evidence driven, yet you went outside of the framework if you like to learn it. Yeah, I've always been curious. So I often think this is actually a great question because I have reflected on it.

29:13
And, you know, I grew up, I grew up in a medical family. My grandpa was a pediatrician. My grandma was a nurse. Like medicine, Western medicine, has always been like a big part of my life. And science has been a big part of my life. And I often think like, man, what would my grandpa think of how I practiced medicine versus how he practiced medicine?

29:41
And would he think I was a quack or would he like, like, would he be open to it? Because, you know, he used to tell me that like chiropractors, he's like, yeah, chiropractors are quacks. Like, so it took me a long time to like get over that, that fact that he put in my head. Right. Like I had to like use my own brain to be like, I actually don't think they are. I actually think like, yeah, are some of them sure. But regular doctors, some of them are quacks. So it's like.

30:07
So I think there was some rigidness in his thought that way. But what my grandpa, what my uncles told me a while back ago, he goes, you know what's interesting about how you approach this and how grandpa, Poppy approached it? He said what Poppy was really good at was he was really a phenomenal diagnostic, like gathering all the information and coming up with a really thorough,

30:37
diagnosis. And I was like, oh, that's so cool, because that's what I'm really good at. I've always been really good at like, getting all the assessment information and like, being really thorough about coming up with like my diagnosis or my final assessment. And I think that comes from a very foundational drive of curiosity. Yeah. And having questions. Yeah.

31:03
Fundamentally, that's what a scientist is, is like someone who has questions and proposes questions to actually not necessarily even be answered, but to be disproven, to like drive the field forward, to be answered with more questions. And that is like very fundamentally who I am. And I think that's probably who he was and what made him really a really good diagnostic

31:34
You know, yeah, I think that, yes, I might not have been like really open to like this energy medicine stuff. It's like was not necessarily introduced to me. I was aware of it. And I also just saw it as like more questions to be answered. And I will say even though I grew up in that family, I also grew up in an area of California that is like kind of hippie dippy. And in you know, and so the again, like I was aware of the hippie dippy stuff. Yeah.

32:02
And though my grandpa probably didn't think it was worth anything, like it was part of the culture that I was in. And he never like, calling chiropractors a quack is probably like the meanest thing he's ever said about, you know, any other sort of like profession in that sense. And so because I think too, at the end of the day, like what he cared about most was his patient, like just caring for the person and wanting to get the person better.

32:30
And I think he recognized that in all these other professionals. And so, you know, same thing. Like I think that that's what resonates across the board, whether it's like hippie-dippy or Western medicine. Like when you're curious and when you're driving force is really doing the best for your patient and doing everything you can and to care for them and help them become well, like you don't really care how it happens. You just want them to be well.

32:59
Yeah, it makes perfect sense. And you're really like, you're not dismissing one for the other, you're integrating them for that main outcome. Yeah, I always tell people, I was like, you know, some people are like surprised that I'm like very pro Western medicine style, but I'm like, 100. I am like, there are so many wonderful breakthroughs that Western medicine has provided, including pharmaceuticals, they get a bad rap, but I'm like,

33:23
I mean, all it takes is having one infection and needing antibiotics to be very grateful for that, right? And so, and same thing when my mom was going through cancer, like, I wish we could have done all the coffee enemas in the world and gotten rid of her cancer, but that was not going to help. Like, I mean, chemotherapy, as shitty as it is, is also can be very helpful and pleasant. And I just like, why can't it be both and, right? Like, why can't we take the...

33:53
best of both worlds, like natural medicine and allopathic medicine. I think when you can combine the two, you kind of like I've found when I combine the two, it supercharges my results. Yeah. And so I'm like, let's again, going back to sort of what that physical therapist said, like let's assimilate it all together and like, let it build us a more clear picture of how the human organism works.

34:23
Yeah. And Anna, I imagine that you must attract to your LTAP courses because they're certified right for other trainers to take and to build their skillset. And I imagine that you must attract like-minded individuals and other trainers who have that sort of similar philosophy. Do you get any pushback from other people interested or in the course? Or like has that been something that you've seen over the years or not so much?

34:51
I mean, I get pushback from people not interested in the course, thinking I'm full of shit, which is fine. Like, I'm like, I get it. It's not for everybody. It's an industry of very, a lot of very black and white thinkers, and I'm not teaching something that's super black and white. And so if your brain doesn't like operating in the gray, it's probably not for you. So there's that. But what's been cool about the internet, right, is like realizing like, there are a lot of people out there.

35:21
that work in the gray and think that there's more to learn and realize that there is this innate intelligence that the body has and are curious about learning and understanding it more and like doing everything they can for the patients. Because again, like the big driver is just doing the best for your people. And so I am constantly actually in awe in how many people take my courses.

35:49
and are like-minded because, especially since I work for myself and I've created this thing on my own, it can make you feel like you're kind of alone. And so it's like really cool to be like, I'm not alone at all. Like there are so many people out here and there probably is, like there's even more. And there's an opportunity, like there's just an opportunity to really change the profession into a more gray area.

36:15
that combines things as opposed to being so black and white. Black and, like the black and white things is to me, just what people with ego sort of hide behind. Yeah. And so, yeah, I always tell people that take my courses, like whether you realize it or not, you're on a journey to let go of your ego completely. Yeah. And so, you know, not everybody wants to do that, and that's okay.

36:40
I like that. That's very similar to the space that I work in, you know, because you've got the very black and white. This is what we learned in dietetics. This is how it is. And then of course, you've got, like similar to physical therapy, you've got nutritional therapy from a whole different range of cultures that have been around for thousands and thousands of years, which is dismissed if there's no randomized controlled trial, but you've got you know, millions of anecdotes to support a different way of doing things.

37:08
And like you, it's really nice to have, to be aware of these options, to be able to use tools when necessary to help the individual in front of you and not be governed by the fact that it's not written in that textbook. We didn't learn it in your second year or that kind of thing. Yeah. Anna, so who is your LTCH course for? I mean, obviously you're an athletic trainer, but I understand it's for more than just athletic trainers. Yeah. I say it's for physical therapists and athletic trainers.

37:38
That's who it's designed for because that's the world I operate in. And so that's like the language I speak, but it's open to anyone that works in a like health and wellness setting that works one-on-one with clients. So, um, I also get massage, a lot of the massage therapists take it. And then also, um, chiropractors, um, Pilates instructors, yoga therapists, like strength coaches.

38:04
I've had all of them in the course and you know those people if they I always say if you're good at taking a course and kind of learning around the edges as Shante says I was like you know like you'll probably get something out of it but I always tell people it's for PTs and ATs because when I'm writing the content and when I'm like saying how to operate how to use the LTAP in like a treatment session like that's all I know is physical therapy and aesthetic training. I can't.

38:33
adequately like tell you how to use it as a chiropractor because I don't even know, you know, the thought process that a chiropractor uses for assessment and treatment. So I can certainly help them and share with them how I use it, but it's like I can't fully help them assimilate it like I can with a physical therapist or an athletic trainer. Yeah, now that makes sense. And I imagine with massage therapists who do it, that some of the stuff you talk about may be beyond their scope of.

39:02
practice, but they'll understand it more and be able to direct their client to ask questions of their physical therapist or whatever. Like it's, if everyone works together in that collaborative sense, then it's a great way to use it. Exactly. Yeah. Nice one, Anna. So if I get back to like, you mentioned that you work primarily with elite athletes. I don't know if you said that actually, but I know that of you.

39:28
And in that sort of like team-based sports setting, not always, because I know you have track athletes as well. So how does this integrate to the actual physical, I mean, I know this is a really 101 question, but your athlete comes to you and he's got a hamstring tear. Like, can you just sort of describe the process of how you would utilize LTAP and what that might look like from that rehabilitation sort of perspective? Yeah.

39:55
Yeah, so yes, to answer your question, I do work only with professional athletes. So most athletes like in the NFL, MLB, NBA, and yes, Olympic level professional track athletes. And I don't work for their team, I work for the athlete. And so I am kind of an outsider in that sense, but I will work with them during the season as well as the off season. So yes, when they come to me and are like, and I tweaked my hamstring and

40:24
practice or the game or whatever. No matter if they have an injury or a complaint or not, when I start to work with them, I always start with an assessment. And so my assessment is I use osteopathic glistening as well as the LTAP, because I'm trying to see like, is your body in a protection pattern? If it is, where is it? What is it? Getting those three answers. And then,

40:53
once I have identified where the body is protected, I don't treat yet. I then gather information orthopedically about what's going on. So if they pulled their hamstring, I might be looking at their hamstring strength. I might be looking at their knee extension and hip flexion range of motion. I might be looking at just their hip flexion. I might be looking at their hip, like, glute strength, hip flexor strength.

41:21
ankle mobility. I might be looking at just general neural tension if they have any like peripheral neural adverse neural tension. So I'm gathering all that information and with the orthopedic information I'm gathering like an idea of like what may have led to this injury, right, from a biomechanical standpoint. And because at the end of the day that's I still care about those things.

41:50
But before I start treating, I was to explain it, is like you get this laundry list of objective dysfunctions from an orthopedic standpoint of things that are wrong. Lacking hip mobility, lacking ankle mobility, decreased strength, all those things. But then I had already figured out where the body wants to start. So let's say the body was directing me around the-

42:14
the lungs. Like let's say it was springtime and the allergies were pretty high and so yeah the body is protecting the lungs. The lungs are having a hard time functioning. So I'll do treatment here first at the lung and what that looks like, like okay any of the organs in the hard frame of the thorax means that I'm treating the hard frame of the thorax and maybe I'm doing like a specific technique to like stretch out the tubes of the bronchus.

42:42
Or maybe I'm like adding humming in it. Whatever that, I can choose any tool I want because getting to the right place was the key. It doesn't matter the tool. I could just do massage. I could do cupping. I could do whatever I wanted. I could do exercises. I could do visceral manipulation. I could do just spine manipulation, all those things. Once I treat there, then I retest that orthopedic laundry list because I wanna see how is that protection pattern

43:12
leading to the orthopedic laundry list of problems that I think were part of the reason why they pulled their hamstring. Yeah. And also will be the reason if we don't address them that it takes their hamstring forever to feel better. Right. So after I treat the lung, we recheck the orthopedics and what you'll see sometimes is this laundry list of 10 things is now three things.

43:37
And so it's like, okay, that narrows in my focus of what the actual problem was, and even gives some insight to perhaps why they pulled their hamstring in the first place. Yeah, yeah. And so then I do another round of the LTAP to look at the second layer. Okay, body, where are you protecting now? Can I work on the hamstring yet, or these orthopedic things that I think are driving the hamstring, or do we have more to uncover? And maybe it takes me to the cranium.

44:06
So some central nervous system tension, which from a hamstring standpoint is concerning because a lot of hamstring pulls happen because the nerve is getting irritated, the sciatic nerve. And that tension can be from all the way up in the cranium. So we treat that, you know, so we treat that. And then again, we look back at that orthopedic list that is now three things and we see, did it change? And then it's like, oh, that knocked out two of them. So now we have one orthopedic thing we need to work on.

44:33
So then now I've made it so much easier on myself. And what happens too is so many times people come with an injury like that, we knock at all these protection layers, and then what we're left with is actually no pain, full range of motion, full strength, even though they have a hamstring tear confirmed on MRI. Oh wow. And so then they're like, that doesn't make sense. I feel fine. And I'm like, yeah, isn't that wild? Because you have all these other muscle cells, like this huge muscle.

45:02
that is also doing the function of the little tiny area that was pulled. So, um, so that's what the kind of the mind blowing part is like, oftentimes it takes an injury that feels like you should be out for weeks and makes it days. Yeah, that's crazy. And then in fact, like you do hear, often hear that, um, athletes, you know, professional athletes seem to have a real accelerated healing process. And for a large part of the time I'm thinking, Oh, they must have

45:29
infrared shockwave, they'll have all the things going in there and they probably do. Yeah, good. Yeah, they probably do. Yeah. But that's interesting to me that even the injury itself can feel a lot better when you've addressed all of those other things. And I imagine that the healing process of a particular injury is actually going to be accelerated as well with less risk of re-injury. Yeah. Well, and so

45:58
Part of what makes things accelerated too is not only like you instantly change their dynamic alignment and sort of take off the reasons that the biomechanics led to the injury in the first place, but also because we're treating the whole organism, we're usually really supporting the blood flow and the lymphatic flow to and from the area too, which just feels like supercharges the healing. But what it does is it just.

46:25
makes you, allows your body to do what it does best, which is heal. Yeah. And oftentimes people's healing takes too, like a prolonged amount of time because it's delayed by fluid being like clogged up at certain points around the body, how it like circulates around the body. And just like when our drain gets plugged in the bath, like it doesn't drain as well and like things.

46:52
Right? Things, what, get smelly and they stay dirty longer. Yeah. Same thing in our healing tissues. So oftentimes because we're treating other parts of the body, we're really affecting a lot of those like stoppage points that are preventing the good blood flow and good lymphatic flow. And so the healing is supported too. So I've had a lot of people with like bone healing issues, like non-union fractures, or like doctors having to put internal fixation, but...

47:21
wanting to take it out but not being able to because of the healing's been delayed. And when we treat them in this way and restore their vascular and lymphatic flow, the bone just responds so quickly and heals so fast that I've had multiple doctors be like, this is kind of unbelievable what we've seen change on the x-ray in like a short period of time. So that's been really cool to see.

47:50
talk to people about things like bone injuries and things like that. And there's this protracted amount of time is required. It feels like it's almost like it doesn't really, it's not necessarily about accelerating healing in that instance. It's about that not delaying healing. Yeah, not slowing it down. Yeah. And I wonder though, Anna, like probably our expectations on healing are somewhat skewed by the idea that this isn't just

48:18
Like what you're talking about isn't very common practice. So potentially, um, it might seem accelerated healing in that instance, but actually it's just, it's not, yeah, it's not. Yeah. I think that often we don't really realize just how fast and powerful the, the body can heal things. Yeah. Um, because a lot of people do a lot of things to slow the healing down, but yeah, you're right. There's no way that we can actually accelerate healing ethically. Yeah.

48:47
But there's a lot of ways that we can delay it. And so when we're optimizing healing in people, what we're doing is just ensuring that all the ways that it could be delayed is not happening. I always tell people with my spelling protocol, I was like, you know, it works so well because it is doing exactly that, like facilitating this systemic improvement of vascular and lymphatic flow. And I always tell people, I was like, you will be really surprised

49:16
how much swelling is actually necessary for healing to happen. Because swelling is not, swelling is good. Swelling is our healing response. You know, our wound, our wound care response. I was like, but the amount of swelling people think is normal around an injury is like, not. It's very, a minimal amount of swelling that is needed to actually...

49:40
promote that healing response. And I see that with the swelling protocol, as soon as I restore people's distal pulses, which is an indication of good systemic blood flow, the amount of swelling that is actually there post-op or post-injury is like wildly less than most people would realize. Oh, that's super interesting. And is this knowledge that you gained from your osteopathic sort of learning or?

50:07
Yes and no. Some of it fundamentally was just understanding anatomy really well. I luckily had an amazing anatomy teacher in college in grad school and she pointed out that when my athletes had swelling issues that I should be addressing their left clavicle if it was the lower extremity or the trunk and their right clavicle if it was the right extremity or the right side of their head because of the way the lymph strained. Oh yeah. And so I was actually

50:37
type of swelling treatment very early on in my career because of understanding the anatomy. So yes, then once I added the osteopathic piece into it, which was testing the pulse and realizing how important that was, I was like, oh, now we have an indication of if we've restored it or not, this is going to be great. Yeah, amazing.

51:07
Is it Jill? Like Jill in our business course always says, evidence builds confidence. Yeah. But I think the same is true regardless of what field you're in. And I wonder how, obviously you've built a reputation for yourself and your methods now because it's been several years. But I always wonder about, when you first started working with your athletes on it, whether you were a bit nervous or they were a bit nervous or unsure of what you were doing. And if you remember what that sort of learning curve was like.

51:33
Yeah, the learning curve of adding in the osteopathic treatment was interesting. It was more about learning how to trust myself and trust what I felt than anything else. Like that was really what the journey was about. And also returning to that curiosity, like science, scientific approach, like embracing that and letting go of my ego. And I had a big ego back then. And

52:02
The nice thing was, since I already got good results with my clients, they trusted me. Also I'm really good at building relationships and displaying or letting the athlete know that I truly do. It is truly an athlete-centered approach of like, it's not about me and my results, it's about them and whatever they need and I'm going to do everything I can for them. So they know I'm not in it just for myself.

52:32
So they were always very open to me doing new things. And then also they actually loved that. They said one of the things I love, the early on in my career, they said one of the things I love about working with you is every year in the off season, when I come back to see you, you have new tools. Yeah, nice. You're always learning, you're always growing. And they're like, that's really cool. They're like, I love to see that. And I love, it makes me feel like.

52:58
you're really the best person for me because you're always like searching for more answers. So that was really cool. So when I added the osteopathic stuff in, they already had a level of like, whatever, she just tries stuff all the time. So like, we'll see what it is. I think the hardest learning curve for them was realizing that when we were in the area where the body was directing us, the

53:23
rest of the body would change so much. It was like a little mind-blowing for both of us of like, wait, your ankle was like so jammed up and now I treated this thing up in your neck and now your ankle's not jammed up. Like, that doesn't make sense. So it was like mind-bending to them as much as it was to me. And then they, what happened too is in osteopathic world, it really taught me I didn't need to force the body so much. I didn't need to push so hard. So I, I stopped doing a lot

53:53
And what was hard for them is they realized how addicted they were into feeling pain in order for something to get better. Yeah. I so know that. That's so me. Yeah. Exactly. So what that, the change that I had to then like, like step into then was doing a lot more of not convincing them what we did made a change, but proving to them with evidence.

54:20
And so when I would do their assessments, I would point out their orthopedic laundry list to them, whereas I might have kept it to myself before. I'd be like, look at this, your hips limited in this, and your ankles limited here, and your nerve tension is this, and your strength is this. And then we would treat somewhere else. And then when I would reassess and I would point it out, like, oh my gosh, did you see how much that changed? Or I would have them do a movement before and after so they could feel it in their own body.

54:48
And I started to let them feel it for themselves. And as soon as they would feel it for themselves, and they're like, oh wow. And it was easier for us to all move forward. But what's interesting is a couple of the athletes, even though they felt it for themselves in their body, they felt away, we did a treatment, they felt better. Even the thing they were complaining about was better. They're still like, well, could you still smash my, could you still release my hand flexor?

55:15
And so it's interesting because it just, I'm like, well, you see how maybe like your belief is wrong, right? Your belief is that this is happening and so your knee hurts. I'm like, and maybe that story that was planted in your head probably from me or another health care professional in the past is not true. Yeah. And so that also was a learning curve for me to realize that every time I tell this an athlete a story about their body, they hold on to it.

55:45
and it becomes their belief. And so it made me very careful at the things I tell my athletes in terms of their body and their injury and what it was caused by or what it, you know, whatever, because there's literally no way for us to know that. And when we give them a story, it is soothing for them in the moment because they want an explanation, but it actually pushes our belief system on them, which

56:14
fundamentally maybe incorrect and then they hold on to that forever. Yeah. And it takes a lot of convincing and proving through evidence that it's not true and that's hard to let go of. And so that's probably one of the most important soft skills I've learned in all of this is just how many stories we tell our people. Yeah. And we see it, like we see it too because...

56:40
What we get annoyed at as clinicians is like, somebody will go to the doctor after like a back thing and the doctor will be like, don't ever flex forward again. It's the worst thing you could do for your back. Yeah. Which is not true, but because the doctor said it and they're the expert, the person is like, oh my God, I can't ever flex forward again. Like how am I supposed to tie my shoes, right? Yeah. And it's so silly and we're like, don't believe him. But I'm like, we do the same thing. We are just as guilty.

57:09
as the doctor telling that story. And so when I want to tell a story or when the athlete really wants an explanation, I tell them that I said, well, everything's connected because we started as one cell. So the story I'm about to tell you is based on my belief system, not actually what happened. And I can tell you five more stories that would be just as believable, but still not sure which one is true.

57:38
I was like, so I'll tell it to you as long as we can both agree that it is a story and not fact. And they're like, okay. And all we want is certainty though. I mean, this is the problem, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. And those beliefs, like, are 100%. It's just being human, isn't it? It's just part of our human condition to have stories that we want to believe and that we buy into and that we identify with and that we hang our hat on. And that regards us of how, even when it's proven otherwise.

58:07
if they've been so ingrained, it's so difficult to let go of them. Yeah. It's kind of wild. Yeah. It is kind of wild. And I like people listening to this will be like, okay, well, that's, this all sounds amazing, but there must only be about 20 little annas in the world. And I know there are more. I know there are more, but my first question before I ask you about, um, people's access to your courses is do you do anything for just, let's say I'm here and you know, I run and I'm super interested in.

58:35
in helping myself. Well, I mean, I'm interested, but it's a different question. It's a different story. But do you have any sort of like consumer resources that would help that I could use myself on myself? Yeah, I do. I have this whole thing called the Regen library or individual Regen sessions where it's basically like, I mean,

59:00
I guess like similar like a yoga class or something like that, that is set up in a way that you move through learning about your body, checking in with how you feel, doing interventions and see what's changed to make you smarter about understanding how to make things feel better in your body. And then also within the regen session, it's designed to shift your nervous system into a more restful state to facilitate self healing.

59:28
Because that's usually the biggest thing when people are like having rest days or regen days, what a lot of the athletes call them here in the United States. Regen short for regeneration is they'll do a workout on their rest days. And it's just a lighter workout, but it's never telling your nervous system it's time to rest. And so these sessions

59:55
specifically have the intention of speaking to your nervous system to shift you into that more rest regeneration restoration state to support your recovery and your body's ability to heal itself. Well, nice. Oh, that sounds amazing. Okay. And then of course, there'll be practitioners listening to this thinking this would be super helpful for my practice. And I know that you have options for those people both in person and online. Yeah.

01:00:24
So I do the LTAP level one course, I do online as well as in person. Right now in person is just in the United States. I'm working on maybe setting up some courses in your neck of the future. Yes. And maybe even in Europe and Canada. But

01:00:46
For now, it's in the United States from an in-person standpoint. It's a two-day course in-person and the online course is six weeks. They are designed to support each other, but they're also designed that you don't need to take both if you don't want to. Nice. If you want to become certified as an LTAP professional, you have to take both an in-person and a six-week course. And then I have some other self-paced education courses. Sort of like...

01:01:15
in that work in this world of blending osteopathic medicine with performance, like physical therapy type stuff. You mentioned the swelling protocol. That's one of those sort of standalone things that people- Yeah. Yeah, nice one. Yeah, I have a free download of the protocol where you can see the key spots of the swelling protocol and sort of like a background information of how it was created.

01:01:41
And then if you want to, from the free protocol, if you want to learn more, there is a online course. And also there are two regen sessions specific for decreasing swelling as well. Oh, nice one. Awesome, Anna. Now I actually do have one last question to ask you before we jump off the call. And then of course I will put links to all of this in the show notes and to your Unreal Results podcast. Oh yes. Yeah, yeah, like you're just, you are very generous with your information.

01:02:10
out there for free, which is, which people can learn a lot. And if they've got questions or they're more curious, then they can get a better understanding of it before sort of like diving in. Um, but the question that the super interesting one is of course about technology, because of course, as athletes, we're very, um, interested in data points and assessing, um, you know, from one week to the next, how we're going, um, which isn't actually the point of my question, my question is tell me about the Apple watch.

01:02:37
Yes, I was like, I knew where your question was going. Yeah, yeah, because I found this super interesting and people like it was almost unreal sort of results as to like looking at the impact of these wearables on our physiology. Yeah, I've sold, I've told people I have like unsold a lot of Apple watches. A lot of my athletes have Apple watches sitting in a drawer never to be used again. So here, my disclaimer is

01:03:07
I love Apple and all of their products. Yeah. There's nothing I would love more than to wear an Apple watch because I think it's one of the coolest things ever. It does look very cool. It does, right? And I'm like, and? Like, instant I got all my stuff without holding my phone. It sounds amazing. So, it's like I get why people love it. Yeah. Now, unfortunately, when we talked about energy medicine and I said we're electrical

01:03:36
That means that as an electrical being that has an electromagnetic field, that means when we come into contact with other electrical or electromagnetic fields that don't resonate with us, that they can do harm to us. And so what I see sometimes with the watch is that people who have pain that they can't figure out, if they take the watch off, they don't have pain anymore. Or in the range of motion changes. Crazy. And so this is

01:04:05
because people are like, so you're saying I shouldn't wear my watch? I'm like, no, I'm saying that you should consider it as something that might be driving your pain or your disease. Yeah. And you should be assessing how you are around it. Some people can tolerate EMFs just fine. And I think it probably has to do with whatever frequency our EMFs are. Like, and it's probably very unique to our own DNA and our own situations. And

01:04:33
other things in our environment, right? So the most important thing I tell people, I'm big on consent and your body, your choice. But with your body, your choice, I want you to have the most informed consent about the choice you're making. And so my point always is just to get people to test how they feel with the Apple Watch on, with it off, test a range of motion, right? Like if you're having shoulder pain, like...

01:05:01
How's your shoulder? What your mobility is like with and without it off? Neck pain, whatever it may be, and see what changes. And you might see that it drives your pain or it limits your range of motion. Then it's your choice. And it sort of surprises me sometimes how many people pick the watch, just still want to watch. Even though they're like, I have this neck pain. And I'm like, okay, but we all know pain points, right? Like we know.

01:05:28
that the only way people change is when the pain point becomes painful enough that they want to make a change. And so my job is just to point out how the Apple Watch could be contributing to somebody's pain and poor movement patterns, and then it's their choice if they want to do that or not. And so that's the biggest thing. What I find is it tends to be the wearables that transmit cellular information that are the worst.

01:05:57
Okay. So wearables like a whoop or an aura ring who are just collecting data, and not phone calls and text messages and that kind of thing, they don't seem to test poorly on people. Oh, interesting. But it's like a regular garment, fine, but a garment that transmits the newer garments that transmit the stuff that an Apple watch would, bad. Because I've got a garment, and a newer garment, but I always have my phone on Do Not Disturb.

01:06:25
So I never get any of the information as it comes through. It's never, it never sort of pops into my mind. And it's just one of those things we'd have to test it. It's like, I don't know, we'd test it. Okay. So that's, that's the thing with the Apple watch. And, and again, like, it's like, well, you, it's, I always tell one of the things I always, the words I say to people is interesting and my athlete made it, but I'm also like, well, that's interesting. So I'm like, okay, so you and I have both saw.

01:06:54
with our own eyes, that when you have the Apple Watch on, your shoulder range of motion is limited and your neck pain is there. When you take the Apple Watch off, your shoulder range of motion is no more limited, like is within normal limits, it's not limited, and your neck doesn't hurt. So we both saw that evidence. I was like, but you want to still choose the Apple Watch. And I say, isn't that interesting? And they're like, well, what do you mean? I'm like, well,

01:07:24
I don't know, what does that mean to you? Isn't that interesting that you would rather choose an Apple Watch over pain? I was like, what does that say about your relationship with tracking your steps or tracking your calories or being connected to your text messages? Or I'm like, what does that mean for you? And I'm like, and maybe like you're borderline obsessed about things that are not serving you.

01:07:49
Anna, you're asking the hard questions. This is the problem. It's the stuff people don't love diving into. Yeah. I'm like, no. But you live in, you deal with weight loss a lot. And it's like the person who is stepping on the scale every day. Is that really serving you? Because what story are you telling yourself about the scale? And same thing with the text messages. If you feel like if you don't have your text messages on you,

01:08:17
And you can't be gotten a hold of at every moment of your day. Like what is that? What does that tell you about, like, what is that story you're making about how you need to be available all the time? Oh, and it's too confronting for people to think about. I know. But the fact that they think about it, that you, and do you know what? I would look at it less as sort of unselling Apple watch and more about how can you use this to your advantage to get sponsored by Whoop? I mean, really that's-

01:08:44
This is what you want to go with it. Exactly. How can we get whoop on people? I'm like a big like stop tracking everything. Just like, what do you feel? Like my biggest thing too in leaning into how you feel is like this is a problem. We outsource our body to other professionals thinking they're the expert or other things thinking they're expert instead of just taking inventory on how we feel. Yeah, nice one.

01:09:11
We are feeling sensory beings. We have so much information coming into our brain at all times from all parts of our body, the body that's interacting with the outside and then the parts of the body on the inside. We are constantly gathering information about how we feel. So the fact that you feel like you need a computer to tell you that information when we are more intelligent than any computer ever will be is like kind of mind blowing to me. Yeah.

01:09:39
No, a hundred percent. I love that Anna. And it's so true. Like, but we not, you know, we just don't trust ourselves. It's, it's, you're absolutely right. We've outsourced everything. Yep. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Body autonomy and like learning how body, like self-trust is like, we, we, but again, we are trying to outsource it when it's an inside job. Yeah. Love it. And tell people where they can find you on sort of all corners of the internet. Yeah. All corners of the internet. It's movement ref. My.

01:10:09
business name, so movement and then R-E-V. Nice. So Instagram's where you can find me most of the time. I'm also on Facebook, so I post less on Facebook. And then I have a YouTube channel and a podcast. The podcast is called Unreal Results, like you talked about. But yeah. Nice one. Hello on Instagram. That's the easiest way to get to know me. And then, yeah, my website is movementrev.com.

01:10:38
Yeah, no, I love it. And as I said, you give loads of free information and I should be your broker for coming down, down under. I'm sure I'll know people who want to hook up and get you doing a course down here. Yes, I have a good amount of people down under that follow me and I am sure I could do a course on there. And then, you know, one of my mentors is in New Zealand, so I always want to try to go down there. Yes.

01:10:59
It's far away and expensive. It's not that far and actually your dollar's pretty good compared to ours. That's true. I can't complain about the finances. You're right. All right, Anna, thank you so much. Really appreciate your time. Yeah, you're welcome.

01:11:27
I really enjoyed that. I absolutely love chatting to Anna. She is a good friend and I feel so blessed to have met her and be able to spend time with her and also just sort of tap her brain about all things sort of physical.

01:11:43
Next week on the podcast, I bring back on fan favourite Cliff Harvey. We have a great conversation. So I'm looking forward to sharing that with you next week. Until then though, don't forget, you've still got three more days. If you're listening to this on Wednesday to sign up to my Monday's matter course. And it is a four week primer for my fuller Monday's matter program. And there's like what?

01:12:11
41 days left of the year team, there is still plenty of opportunity to either dial in those habits or start to change things so you kick off 2025 feeling like the person you deserve to be. So sign on up to Mondays Matter and if you've got any questions don't hesitate to connect with me over on Instagram in my DMs at @mikkiwilliden. I'm on threads and Twitter at the same handle.

01:12:40
@mikkiwillidennutrition can't really send me a message there but tag me if you like head to my website @mikkiwilliden.com and you can sign direct to Mondays matter or send an inquiry there alright guys you have the best week see you later