00:00
Hey everyone, it's Mikki here. You're listening to Mikkipedia and if you are picking this up on Wednesday near Christmas, I hope you're having a fantastic day. This week on the podcast, I speak to Holly Baxter. She's a registered dietitian, an Aussie import into the US, she's an author, scientific educator and nutrition coach and we discuss transformation.

00:29
So we talk initially about Holly's journey from a young track athlete to physique competitor, how she overcame her eating disorder and amongst all this, and how discovering her faith has helped for an inner transformation to become a happier and more content version of herself. And amongst all of this, Holly and I also discussed some real practical strategies for people interested in the Fat Loss Space. So

00:59
I think you're really going to enjoy this conversation. Holly is a wealth of information. She just has such a beautiful personality and she's so giving and anyone that follows Holly on social media and follows her YouTube channel will absolutely know this as well. For those who don't know Holly, her true passion lies in women's health and fitness, as in...

01:22
Credited practicing dietitian and online physique coach, she brings her discipline and first-hand experience as a professional athlete to empower clients to achieve their ultimate success through knowledge and dedication. Her commitment to providing evidence-based education continues to be the cornerstone of her career, challenging misconceptions about food, nutrition and exercise. Her mission has always been to promote accurate information and inspire a life of balance and wellness.

01:51
Holly leads the journey to a healthier, more informed and empowered life through her revolutionary BeerBody team-based fitness and coaching business. So Holly not only has a thriving online coaching business, she also, with a team of a few other people, puts out a research review every month called BeerBrain as well. So there are so many avenues with which you can engage with Holly and her information.

02:21
So I've put down links in the show notes to both Be A Body and also Holly's Instagram page. Absolutely check it out if you're not already following her. Before we crack on into the interview though, I would like to remind you that the best way to support this podcast is to hit the subscribe button on your favourite podcast listening platform because that increases the visibility out there and amongst literally thousands of other podcasts. And that way more people will get...

02:50
to learn from the guests that I have on this show, including of course, Holly Baxter. All right team, enjoy the conversation.

03:02
I say things have calmed down, but to be honest, every time, and I'll just hit record, every time I, because I follow you weekly on YouTube, obviously, and it's like every time you're like, oh, well, it's just been such a busy week. Like this is a new thing for you. But I'm like, Holly, every single week is busy for you. And you're very good at filling space, or at least it seems, which isn't a bad thing, right?

03:28
Yeah, I feel like life has been a bit of a rollercoaster since I got off the plane and stepped foot in the US. So I probably should, well, to be fair, I have gotten much better at just normalizing chaos, which I don't know is a good thing or not, but at least it's, it's helped me to navigate some pretty difficult situations by just being like, yep, another busy week. It's kind of crazy. But you just roll with it. And you have to, you know, yeah. And like.

03:56
Do you follow Dr. Gabrielle Lyon at all? I do, I know Gabrielle, yes. Yeah, of course you would, yes. And she often talks about this, the concept that we talk about stress like it's always a bad thing, but actually stress is just a really good way to build resilience. And I have to say, Holly, I think you must have over the several years that I've followed you have just built a lot of resistance to be doing what you're doing now. And you really appear to be thriving. And I feel like you are,

04:25
very good at sort of wearing your hat on your sleeve actually. So it would be a difficult facade to keep up if it wasn't actually genuine. No, definitely genuine. I think you have to roll with the punches. I think learning to forgive for all the negative things and the people that kind of come in and out of your life I think has been monumental in being able to kind of just continue to persevere.

04:52
But, you know, I used to struggle with depression and through lots of therapy, like I have been able to kind of work through that. And I think I just have a very different mindset today, substantially different to how I was maybe 10 years ago. I didn't handle stress, you know, change, disruption. You know, I joke, I always say I had the emotional intelligence and capabilities of a toddler.

05:15
until I started doing therapy. Um, sorry, I'm sure we'll get into some of that in today's podcast. I talk a little bit about my upbringing and I guess what kind of contributed to my eating disorder and just some of the stuff that's going on, but definitely a different person now. So, um, yeah. Yeah. Well, it's amazing when I popped on my stories that I was talking to you, I got loads of people saying how excited they were, um, that we would, that I would get the opportunity and in fact.

05:43
one woman who I know, she was an ex-client of yours actually. And she's like, I worked with Holly in 2020 and Holly is amazing. And she really got me sort of set up for her physique competition. So you're very well liked over this side of the world as well, which of course is where you're from, right? You're Australian. You immigrated to the US. I grew up in Tasmania.

06:10
Tasmania, I hear it's amazing over there, Holly, like the beautiful and outdoorsy, possibly, I don't know, it's probably quite different now maybe than to when you grew up. So how did you end up in the US? Yeah, so I guess for it to kind of go back a little bit, obviously I was born and raised in Tasmania, which is one of the smallest places, I guess, ever. It is the smallest state in Australia.

06:36
I kind of got out of there as quick as I could to go and do my undergraduate and master's degree. And then I kind of moved around a couple of different locations while I was there. And then originally when I moved to the U S it was for a boy. So that was kind of what drew me over initially, but you know, I've kind of got my life here now, all my businesses, you know, new family and friends and.

07:02
You know, as much as I'd love to be able to go back, you know, I obviously miss family, miss friends, miss the natural beauty. And there are so many amazing things about Australia. But it's such a big adjustment. It was a massive adjustment, you know, back then. And it would be just as difficult, I think, now if I decided to go back. But, you know, maybe one day we will. I don't know. I'm kind of in a position now where I am dating somebody new. I obviously was married, divorced.

07:30
Um, and I'm in a new relationship and they are very fixed in the US. They are, I guess, an assistant professor at a university here, which, you know, it's a lot more challenging to move around when you've got a physical in-person job than perhaps what I do, which is mostly online. So I could live anywhere, which is nice. Um, but for now I don't see myself leaving, uh, Florida or at least I love it here. It's great. Despite the hurricanes.

08:00
Yeah, yeah, no, that's nice. I was in fact, I was in Florida maybe in May last year. And you have like quite a few breweries. And I'm pretty sure that, well, at least I'm pretty sure you were a beer drinker or you quite enjoy a craft beer. And there are so many in Florida. And in fact, America is known for its craft brewery scene. So I'm pretty lucky.

08:25
So, Holly, obviously you're an accomplished athlete as well, and you sort of started out in, was it athletics and track, I think, and then you sort of moved into physique sport. And I'm not sure if that was like a linear sort of, that is how it went. But how did that, you know, I mean, you've been really open about your eating disorder, which of course you just mentioned before, and there are a range of different sort of podcasts that you talk about it in.

08:53
What does recovery look like for you now? Because as I understand it, it's actually only been in the last few years that you really felt like you've gotten to a place where it's resolved. Would that be correct? Yeah, I would 100% agree with that. Yeah, I've been very open about it. I think it's been, you know, part of the healing journey has been, you know, part of being open and being vulnerable and kind of sharing some of those struggles. And I think where it gained most of its attention was probably on the Peter Atiyah podcast.

09:22
Honestly, we received so much overwhelming support after that podcast. I remember reading through the comments section on YouTube where that video is, and I could not believe the number of women that were like, thank you so much for sharing. I've struggled with this myself. I've had mental health struggles over the years. I've struggled with disordered eating or an eating disorder, and it's just so refreshing to have somebody just so openly talk about it. I think...

09:50
I now can look back and reflect on my experience. And, you know, so much of the reason why I didn't heal sooner, I didn't take action sooner was because, you know, people are very private about those struggles and I think it comes from a fear of being judged or criticized or misunderstood and, you know, the old me was that person. That's exactly who I used to be. And being vulnerable was so intimidating. You know, and especially since my career kind of went from being, you know, private practice.

10:19
straight over to social media when I moved to the US and you're constantly in the public eye. So I think there is an even greater pressure to kind of maintain this like certain standard or image. But you know, I think when we reveal those struggles, for me at least, there was a genuine concern that it might negatively affect my like professional reputation.

10:42
Um, and for me, maybe what was even worse than the idea of affecting my professional reputation, um, was feeling like, or having this perception of weakness. And, you know, maybe we'll talk a little bit more about this later in the podcast, but you know, the way that I was raised, that would be unacceptable. Um, and I also think just culturally we pride ourselves on having strength and having resilience and, you know, I think.

11:08
Um, for so many years, I, I felt that if I admitted any of those, um, I would be perceived as weak. So yeah, I think there was a lot of shame in that. I kept completely silent for gosh, all of my late teens, all of my early twenties. And it was really probably when I was about 26 years old, I was kind of at the breaking point where like my mental health was so bad and I was just so I struggle was struggling.

11:36
every sense of the word that I finally started to get some help, but it didn't happen immediately. I didn't click with the therapist that I was working with. I went to another one. I was like, what a loon. It took a little bit of time to kind of find somebody that I felt like I could genuinely be open and honest about it. But up until that point, I kind of internalized everything. So any problems I had, I would just bottle them all up and instead of reaching out for support,

12:05
Um, you know, I, I just pushed it all down and, you know, that was, again, uh, a reflection of how I was raised. Um, but, you know, I couldn't look at this now and realize like, not only did I delay my healing journey, I completely ignored all these opportunities to grow, to mature, to work on self-development. So, you know, as soon as I finally did, um, you know, put myself in the pathway of like receiving support and help.

12:31
and kind of letting go of my pride, I guess, because that's what it felt like. I really started to see some pretty major improvements, to be honest. Yeah, and what kind of timeline is this, Holly? Like, so if you sort of started looking at it when you were 26, like, and where were you at on the social media front there? Like, and how did that sort of transpire? Yeah, so I guess when...

12:57
When I was, so I'm 35 now to put things in perspective, I moved to the US in 2017 and I was probably 27, I guess. Someone can do the math for us. But it was around that same time. So 26, 27, I just started, I started working with a therapist in Australia, but very inconsistently. I wasn't committed. You know, I honestly thought I was a lost cause at that point.

13:21
So yeah, when I first came to the US, I actually started working with Dr. Corey Propst. Some of you may or may not know who she is. And we worked together for probably six months, but again, you know, she's a wonderful person, but you know, trying to make sure that you've got a good connection is really important. And I think from a professional perspective, because we were in the same industry or area, I know for me, I just didn't feel like I was able to open up and, you know,

13:49
talk about things freely because there was also like a relationship, you know, outside of that with my husband at the time. And, you know, there was professional connections all, all over the place. So it just didn't feel like a good fit. So I didn't get therapy for maybe another year. So we're moving into like 2018 at this point. And then I finally found somebody who was incredible. And I'd also been doing a lot of, you know, self-development, um, you know, I was reading books, I was listening to audibles, like so many things.

14:18
I'm to kinda get me you know moving in the right direction sorry yeah time line was twenty six to thirty five and still to this day you know i am in such a better place and i've also now got you know the big guy like god is in my life very you know heavily

14:46
scripture, like all of that has made such a massive impact, you know, on my recovery journey. And I'm sure we can dive into all of this. Yeah, and I find it so, like it must be so challenging to know when to sort of open up to the wider audience, you know, like no one out there on social media thinks that they, I mean, no one is like, oh, Holly needs to share everything of her life on social media. Yet we know that in order to sort of garner, I guess,

15:15
trust of your audience. It is a really good thing to be genuine, which you were so good at. Like, was it- And transparency. Yeah. Was it frightening for you, Holly, initially to chat about your eating disorder online and then of course these other transformations that have occurred? Yeah, it definitely was. I mean, I don't think anybody likes to admit, you know, that they're a flawed human. You know, again, I had so much shame and I really want to talk a little bit about, you know-

15:44
why I carried so much shame, just relating that back to my upbringing. But yeah, to begin with, I didn't talk about it. I just bruised right through, I just brushed straight over that. I didn't talk about it at all. But I kind of realized, you know, after starting to go to, you know, therapy, and I just felt a little bit more confident in being a bit more emotionally vulnerable. You know, I found my words, so to speak.

16:08
Um, I just felt a little bit better, you know, in conveying like some of the struggles that I had. And I think to begin with early on, I would only let little bits out here and there. I mean, I go back to my YouTube channel in 2017 and 2018. I'm like, oh, cringe, but you know, that was part of this process. And, you know, I don't know. I mean, hindsight's a wonderful thing. You know, what would have happened if I didn't step into social media where, you know, I kind of had to.

16:35
talk about things openly, or at least that was part of the process in coaching from a nutrition perspective and training. You know, I also had to kind of talk about, well, why didn't things work this week and or why they did work very successfully, you know, what was changing. So there's so much psychology that kind of goes into this. And I think, you know, over the years of being a coach, you know, education and knowledge around nutrition and exercise is critical, as you know. But what I was finding is, you know,

17:04
I could convey what I needed to from a scientific perspective relatively confidently and with simplicity, but it was always the psychology and the behavior change and the mindset shift and reframing people's entire beliefs that they've carried with them for their entire lives. That was the really difficult part. I think I realized if I'm going to embrace this, I also need to do this for myself.

17:30
So, you know, that was kind of the impetus or the catalyst for, you know, being more vulnerable. And it has really made me a better coach. Like I think about, you know, five years ago, even how I coached the way that I go about it is very, very different. But to think about like where it all stemmed from, honestly, like I, I don't think I ever thought about where the eating disorder actually came from. And after having done a lot of therapy, it's,

18:00
very clear but as I understand it I think I was raised in what I would consider a rather narcissistic household so I guess to give some examples because I think people might be able to relate to this a little better you know love was very conditional was very transactional and I don't think that should be the case for any child or anyone for that matter

18:23
But love was given based on your performance and for your achievements and whether or not you behaved the right way. I remember very distinctly, appearances were everything and there were no room for mistakes or any errors. It felt like no matter what you did, nothing was ever good enough. So home for me and I love my parents, they're your parents. But it never ever felt like a safe space where you could be honest about your feelings and

18:53
You know, if you were at least how I remember it, it was, there were always consequences. If you told the truth, if you didn't, you know, it didn't matter. So as a result, I think when I grew up, I kind of learned to just suppress my emotions. I would never really say what I needed. Um, I constantly had my guard up and I think some of that I look at.

19:15
with positive, like with a positive lens. I think that helped me to develop the resilience that I have today and tolerance for pretty difficult and uncomfortable things. But unfortunately the downside of like being raised that way, I consider myself one of the world's or did consider myself one of the world's best people pleases because you know, I learned growing out that that's how I would receive praise. That's how I got validation.

19:42
If I did really well, I would be, you know, awarded for that. You know, I would be shown a given attention or affection or love. So yeah, I think as an adult then, um, that kind of was what led me to set the standards for myself, unbelievably high, like unrealistically high. It was silly. I mean, I still hold myself to a high standard, but I have other like redeeming qualities now that I have worked on a lot.

20:12
Um, that kind of helped me to, you know, know when to put the gas pedal on or put the break on, on certain characteristic characteristics and qualities that I have. Um, but you know, back then I prided myself with perfectionist mindset. You know, I was so proud that that's how I was. And you know, that I was so, you know, um, what's a, what's a good word to describe this? Like I was so hard, not hard headed, but, um, resilience, I guess is the best word. So.

20:41
Yeah, I think the reason I wanted to share a little bit of that, a little bit about my background is because it's those experiences like in our early childhood that I think really shape who we become as an adult. And I was a complete mess. Like I said to you just earlier, maybe it was off air, I don't know. But I feel like back then, like I had the emotional coping skills of a toddler. You know, I treated myself like a drill sergeant, then you know, I could never make mistakes. I

21:11
And ultimately, you know, the eating disorder kind of was a symptom of trauma as a kid. And I was also sexually assaulted when I was a teenager. And I, you know, talked about this pretty openly. So there were like a combination of different things going on, you know, as a young girl and then as a teenager that ultimately, you know, led me to, you've got an eating disorder. It was the only thing at the time where I felt like

21:41
I had control because everything else felt completely out of control or the standards were so high, the bar was so high, I'm getting like no emotional affection, I don't know how to manage my emotions, it was just wild. So I feel like I really struggled as a young woman and I'm so glad that I finally kind of let myself ask for help and get some support

22:11
beneficial onwards and upwards ever since then. Oh, 100% Holly. And it's hard to hear people talk about this kind of trauma and experience because you just feel so deeply for them and what a, how hard that must have been for you. Have you like had conversations with people in your past about this now? Like, is it a hard thing for you to sort of talk about in relation to the people that really impacted on

22:40
your upbringing. I'm not sure if I said that correctly, you know what I mean? Yeah, no, no, I think I understand what you're trying to say. I wouldn't say that I have held a close relationship with my family. I think honestly, if I'm being really like open about it, part of the struggle is just like having a lot of distance between us. The time zone for Australia to the US is really difficult. But again, I think

23:07
having done so much therapy, you know, and working with people that I respect and that I know really have my best interests at heart. I think I've kept that little bit of distance for a reason. You know, it's a protective thing. You know, I don't want to be in a position ever again where, you know, I feel like that or I am mistreated. And, you know, as an adult now, I think I have better coping skills and...

23:33
I'm able to kind of manage it a whole lot better. So I don't know whether that was exactly what you're asking, but. No, no, actually that was, yeah, that was pretty much answered my question around that. And Holly, what I've also, of course, what you've been really open about is your spiritual transformation. And I don't even know if it is a transformation or if it's just something that has just sort of come out. But did you grow up in a religious sort of household? Is it something that you've found as an adult?

24:03
How did that transpire? Yeah, it seems like such a blur, but it's been so amazing. Yeah, so you're right. I actually was raised in an agnostic household. So I guess for anyone that doesn't know, it's basically there is no religion. So I didn't have any religious foundations and not a single person growing up was Christian or any other religion for that matter. I think in Australia in general, at least in Tasmania where I grew up.

24:31
was not a whole lot of diversity in general. So, you know, I didn't have that experience or even any spiritual guidance, you know, to call upon for any help if I needed it. So I think, you know, a lot of the struggle, at least with my identity, you know, as a young girl, is probably attributable to that kind of upbringing. I think my family adhered to probably social norms and ideals.

25:01
I think that that probably what that means is I think they were basing a lot of their value systems on superficial things like appearances, achievements, material possessions, stuff, like things that now what I realize are very low on the totem pole having you know found faith and you know I was recently baptized actually I flew to Texas with to see one of my friends who was I guess

25:29
She's already been baptized, but she was renewing her faith, I guess, and wanted to do it together. So yeah, it's really changed my perspective on so many things. I don't feel like the same person and in a good way. I'm just happier.

25:48
the world could be burning down around me and I probably will still feel pretty good, which is a very different scenario or version of me compared to the 18, 20 something year old version of myself. Holly, did you have people around you that encouraged you with this or was it just something that you stumbled upon? And yet, like I'm always really curious about this. Yeah.

26:17
It's a little bit bittersweet because the person or the individual that actually introduced me to my local church here in Tampa, unfortunately, has hurt me personally in unimaginable ways. But I have forgiven this person and I think I've come to terms with those memories. And I really had to recognize that this is probably a testament to the unconventional ways in which God operates.

26:45
He found a way to be with me regardless of the circumstances. So yeah, I think I was in a really difficult place in my marriage. I had basically, I didn't know what else to do. I was going to church to begin with, praying to God that my marriage would somehow miraculously heal. You know, that I just needed the strength to get through because I was doing therapy for myself. I was in therapy, you know.

27:14
for like marriage counselling. We'd been through like seven counsellors. Unfortunately, none of them were spiritual based. And nothing was, nothing was changing. So I originally was going to church, just praying that something could happen that was good. And whilst it obviously hasn't worked out, it's, it's been one of the best decisions in my entire life. So

27:39
Yeah, it's changed many things. I think even down to the way that I coach people, it's just given me, I guess, more empathy for people. I feel like I'm a more compassionate, grace-giving individual. I feel like I have a set of guiding principles now that help govern my behavior and my decision-making.

28:04
I could probably do a whole podcast just talking about that. But yeah, it is relatively new. And I mean, I recall not that long ago, maybe just one and a half, two years ago, just saying God, you know, or like singing some of the songs, um, you know, at the beginning of a church service before the sermon, it just felt so uncomfortable and strange. It was like, you know, an outer body experience, but, um, yeah, it's a very different feeling now. It's very comforting and.

28:33
Yeah, I think it's given me hope during periods of my life and still to this day, difficult circumstances. It's a really obvious transformation actually when you, when, when, or at least when I see you on social media, you just seem so much lighter, you know, and despite the business and despite all the crazy things that are going on. And I think I saw your, you know, the moving and restructuring your business and just all of the things. You just

29:00
I don't know, there's a lightness about you, Holly, which I don't know that was there before. And it was from a person who follows you, it's a real delight to see, you know, someone going through a really hard time and then sort of coming out and being better and being, I don't know, stronger and just, yeah, for it. So I'm sure all of your followers would feel the same. I think they do. I've had many comments about it and it honestly just makes me smile, I think.

29:29
I mean, it's great. It really is. Yeah. And I mean, obviously, and it makes all of this stuff that has shaped you, you're like this kick-ass dietician who is an amazing educator and you, you are so generous with what you put online. And I just really would love to get some of your sort of technical insights. Cause I know half the people.

29:53
listening to this will be like, yeah, but what does Holly think about zone two training and do I really need to bulk before I cut? And what are her thoughts around this? So I'd love to talk shop with you. Absolutely. Far away. What are we going to chat about? Well, actually, like, one of the first things, Holly, and I heard you talk on Optimum Protein podcast a little bit about sort of building muscle and what that sort of takes. But okay.

30:22
and they're not necessarily coaches, they're just sort of influences and they're like, you need to earn the right to lose weight. You just can't come up and just decide that you're going to go on a diet and then strip calories and exercise and the rest of it. You have to earn the right. By earning the right, they mean you have to spend time eating more food, gaining weight, gaining muscle. But I think it's almost the attitude of...

30:51
you're not deserving of feeling better until you've sort of gone through this sort of building process. Have you seen that? Or you look a little bit surprised by those comments actually. I am a little bit surprised. I have, I honestly have never, look I'm the worst person when it comes to knowing what's going on on social media. I am, I put my stuff online, I might interact with a couple of comments and then I am back into the books and reading or whatever. Sorry.

31:16
I'm probably the worst person if you had asked me like, what's, what's the latest trends on social media? I couldn't tell you. I don't know. I think I missed the whole plant oils or seed oils or whatever it was. I'm like, oh, is this a thing? Oh, but yeah. Okay. So earning the right to achieve like a good Frisique, I don't think we have to earn the right at all. I think that there is a scientific way that makes sense to me. If you want to optimize.

31:44
your body composition and unfortunately the fastest route to usually getting to where you want to go is I guess the pathway that requires most mental resilience and resistance. So it's sitting with the discomfort potentially of not getting what you want right now knowing that if you're patient and you give yourself time that you will achieve your goals and

32:12
the first person took my hand up and said any shortcut I could have taken as a young 20 something year old woman I would have taken it. I truly I believed that there were magic pills that were supplements that were going to you know transform my body composition you know. I think I tried just about every single supplement that would come on the market back in the day and now that barely even makes up a percent of what I actually do. I don't really even take supplements anymore but yeah I

32:41
Ultimately, the women that I'm working with, they want to be able to have a lot of food freedom. And what I mean by that, I guess, is they would like to have a lot of calorie flexibility to enjoy not only the healthy nutrition things, but the fun things as well, which is, you know, a reasonable expectation or wish.

33:00
Um, and they want to have, you know, not only a good looking appearance, but they want to feel good. They want to be strong, uh, you know, and they care about their health and they want to exercise or healthy in all ways. So the fastest way to do that is to just think about building. I mean, there's an ultimately the only way to improve your, uh, calorie requirements is to increase your lean body mass that lean body mass is.

33:27
Really the driving powerhouse behind what's going to afford your body more calories. It allows you to be more wasteful with how you spend your energies. Sorry. I think I've said it this way before. Build for as long as you possibly can until you've got as much muscle mass as you desire and then worry about your cutting phase. Because

33:54
If you decide to do it a different way, and it's not wrong by any stretch of the imagination, but if you do an eight-week cut here or another 12-week cut there or you end up spending half of the year in a calorie deficit dieting, you're chasing fat loss. But every single week that you choose to be in a deficit, you're basically tacking on weeks to the timeframe that you're actually going to get to your ultimate muscle building goals.

34:20
because the likeliness of somebody building an appreciable, you know, amount of muscle mass whilst they're dieting is relatively low. And again, there's going to be some variability with that, you know, depending on the person, depending on their body fat percentage. So, you know, if it's somebody that's already relatively lean and they've only got a little bit of, you know, change that they want to make in their muscle mass versus their lean mass, that set of circumstances proves to be

34:50
I guess the most challenging to build muscle in because we don't have this huge reservoir or storage unit of adipose tissue and energy that's going to help drive and create that new muscle tissue. Compared to maybe an individual that has a slightly higher body fat percentage, maybe they're sitting just above 25%. That's kind of my draw a line in the sand if I had to pick a number, 25% and above. For an individual that has that kind of body composition.

35:17
they've got a little bit more reserves in the tank that would allow you then to build muscle, even if you are, you know, endeavoring to lose body fat because you've got some storage to kind of help not only fuel the training well, I allow you to reach, you know, proximity to failure to help signal muscle growth. But you're also able to lose body fat at the same time. So it kind of does come down to the individual if they're, you know, going to choose one route or the other.

35:47
But the most direct route is build as long as you possibly can, worry about the fat loss at the end because every week that you spend in a deficit is just tacking on weeks until you get to your ultimate goal. Yeah. And do you know, people are in such a rush to lose the weight, I think. Like, you know, where like patience is a virtue that not a lot of us have when it comes to body composition. It's like, well, I'm on an eight-week plan. So you know, by week six, I want to sort of be, you know, not withstanding or not.

36:16
thinking about the fact that it's actually been several years of the slow sort of weight gain that they've experienced and now they're wanting to do something about it. It's hard to be patient, I think, for a lot of people. Yeah, and I understand it. I've been that person, but hindsight's a wonderful thing. I can sit here now having 10, 15 years of being in this industry doing the right thing. But I guess...

36:42
You can go quickly, of course. There's a certain limit on how fast one should be losing weight per week. There are several studies that indicate once you're exceeding this amount of your body weight per week, you're starting to compromise your lean tissue and that's your compromising your metabolic rate. Your metabolism is under fire. But even within the safe recommended reference

37:12
sacrifices that I have to make in order to do that and it's so unbalanced. So again, it comes down to the individual. Some people have a higher tolerance for uncomfortable positions than others and it could also be circumstantial. I look at the broad range of clients that I work with. I have one client right now, she has seven children.

37:35
seven. And then, you know, I look at the time that she's got free and available and she also works part-time on the weekend. She's a hairdresser. Her husband, I don't know what her husband does, but anyway, they split those responsibilities. And then I look at, you know, some of my other clients, they're single. They have a very low stress job. You know, once they finish in the afternoon, they can switch off. There is no other responsibilities. There's no stress. There's no, you're on call basically 24 seven as an entrepreneur.

38:04
And, you know, in that unique set of circumstances, someone might be able to move at a faster speed because they're not having to contend with 5,000 things every day. Their responsibilities are a little bit less. So they might be able to commit, you know, to something that's slightly more aggressive. So, you know, it really comes down to the person. So, yeah, there's there's multiple ways to get to the end road. And I think for many of us, and at least my experience was.

38:32
I just had an unrealistic expectation of what I could do given my circumstances. And only through years of practice and then growing up a little bit, becoming a little bit wiser. And they're like, wow, I was so hard on myself. Like what on earth was I thinking? Like, I'm not going to be able to do that. You know, you're, you're looking after children. You're trying to run four companies. Oh, you know, you're doing this without any family in the country. Like it was just wild. So.

39:01
Yeah, I think again, part of my healing journey, there's been a lot of time spent, you know, learning to be a little bit more emotionally vulnerable and learn compassion, learn giving grace and learning to be less of a perfectionist. And you know, I would never have admitted it back, back, you know, then, but it has been so freeing to like,

39:28
let let it go a little bit, chill out a little bit. And you know, I'm such a happier person now because you know, I try to do things that are a little bit more realistic. So I think that tends to shine through a little bit with the coaching that I do for for women. I'll have some people come in and they're like, all right, well, you know, in the past, I've lost weight at this speed. And I'm like,

39:49
Well, that's nice. How did that go for you? How was your mental health? How was your relationship with your husband? So, you know, it's about striking a good balance for the individual. Yeah, nice one. And is it realistic to expect that if you are currently maintaining your weight at say, just pick a number, 1600 calories, that if you spend a year building muscle that

40:19
increase the number of calories that you eat by a set amount. So what is the math around that, Holly? Sometimes I look out on social media and it just seems like either it's a reverse dieting case where this person's gone from 1200 calories to now they're able to eat 2100 calories and oh my goodness, look, they've lost weight. What are the expectations in that space? I feel like social media is rife with these transformations.

40:48
Right, okay, so I think in terms of like one's capacity to get their calories up, that can, we can achieve that through a couple of different areas. I guess I'll start with the first one, which we probably hear a lot of, which is this kind of positive adaptation. So I guess you're probably familiar with this idea of like the reverse diet. My personal stance on reverse dieting has changed significantly over the years. It's definitely

41:16
I used to be far over here and now I'm kind of back in the middle a little bit. Sorry. I've softened my belief behind that, that principle or that process. I do think that there is a hard ceiling for all of us where, um, you know, beyond a certain point or a certain calorie amount, we're not able to just continuously increase calories, increase calories and increase calories. Like there is a ceiling. Um, if we go any, if we go further beyond that, we then do gain body fat.

41:45
So, part of the reason that we're able to achieve some adaptation is by and large through your niche, so non-exercise activity thermogenesis. So, as we give ourselves a little bit more energy, we increase our calorie targets by a small amount, what we'll often find is that people's need increases.

42:07
Um, that might exist in the form of maybe you just fidget a little bit more. Maybe you swivel on your chair a little bit more like I do when I'm coaching. Now, uh, if you're out in a public place, I know from me being in a fat loss phase to me being in a small surplus and eating just a really good amount of calories. Rather than me sitting down to talk to people, I will stand up. Um, I might be standing there instead of just being dead still. I like, I will sway on my feet or I'm just, I move around more.

42:35
Another great example is always the obvious one. When you're in a contest prep, I would go to get beverages from my refrigerator. So it would keep me hydrated through the day. And I had a two story, three story house actually here in Tampa. And I'd find myself going down to the kitchen and rather than just getting a single drink, like I take a can of soda up to my office, I would be trying to like hoard three under my armpits to go back upstairs. And I'm like, what are you doing? Like it's not conscious. This is sub.

43:03
conscious, like your body's trying to conserve energy. So, you know, when we do start to allow more calories back in and you've got to trust that there is some amount of adaptation available, we can bring our calories up and you know, the studies that we have and there are not that many believe it or not, would indicate somewhere in the realm of maybe 90 to 120 calories of positive adaptation. There are probably other cases, undocumented cases that we don't have in you know, science.

43:31
where people have experienced wildly greater adaptation. So we call that like a maintenance calorie range. But it's probably no more than say, three to 5% on average for most people. So that's one part of this capacity to add more calories. And some people are too afraid to even try. They're just like, oh, I don't wanna do it. Or there's some kind of limiting belief or fear or worry that they have, but it probably exists.

44:00
But then, you know, as far as then taking your calories any higher, the only other way that you can do that is if you have a more muscular body. You know, that is a more energy demanding, you know, material that allows you for the same exercise that you are doing today. You think about your current training program, your, your step goal, whatever it is, the body that now is more muscular will

44:26
burn more calories without doing anything else. Like it just needs more energy to support that muscle mass. So, you know, you can therefore then diet a little bit easier if you are, if you do the work, build the muscle, then you know, if you are embarking on further fat loss, or in my case, like I'm always, you know, doing competitions, I'm now able to, you know, lose body fat doing the same, you know, frequency of lifting the same, you know, three sessions a week of cardio. But I...

44:55
do get a little further ahead every time because now my body just demands more energy and I do get to eat a little bit more too than what I used to do. So as far as you know what's the math behind that? Well if you are gaining lean tissue, so like true like protein, it's four calories per gram. So you know you can do the math like if you've got to put on, I don't know I don't have a calculator in front of me but insert whatever amount of muscle you want to put on.

45:21
That's how many more calories that mass is going to demand in a day. So it can be pretty impressive depending on how much somebody actually puts on. Yeah, no, I love that because one of the challenges that I have is to convince a woman to do strength-based training actually. And I wonder whether you get that or probably you might actually.

45:46
attract women who are also already doing strength-based training, but maybe not. I mean, you're probably with a wide variety of people, but I think it's because they're, I don't even know that they're afraid to get bulky. I think it's, they just really dislike the gym or they, or on the flip side, they really love the feeling of doing cardio-based training because it just feels different in the moment of that. You get the sweat out, your heart rate's higher. And then

46:15
if they do go into the gym, they're lifting like five pound dumbbells and doing, and very easily, and they're not necessarily putting some sort of effort in it. So I, but how you've just described, you know, the advantage of doing muscle-based or sort of strength-based training, I think hopefully we'll flip the switch a little bit. Flip the switch. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And in someone's mind. Yeah. And again, this is where I think like nutrition and exercise education is pivotal in all of this.

46:45
Yeah, I was that person myself. I mean, I think back to my 18 year old version of Holly and I was a cardio bunny like everybody else was. I mean, you grew up doing sport. Usually like you're in school, you're probably doing something that requires you to run. Um, so yeah, I, I ran, I did track sprinting. I loved as I kind of went onto college. Um, I can transition out of that a little bit and, um, was more interested in doing like five kilometer runs.

47:12
We had a beautiful place in Melbourne where I lived that I could go and run. And I had a gym with my old boyfriend back then and we ran, we did boot camps and it was all functional training. It was get your heart rate up, sweat. And if you weren't sweating, then you weren't working hard enough. So I definitely had that mentality when I kind of moved into the gym setting. But again, it's just education. Once you realize, okay.

47:39
that type of training, you know, whether you're working zone two, three, four, five, and six, they all burn calories. Like all exercise has the potential to burn calories, but not all exercise has the potential to signal muscle growth. So, you know, once we can kind of conceptualize that idea, then when you're lifting, you don't need to be sweating to be, you know, maximally like fatiguing all those motor units within a muscle, which is signaling muscle growth.

48:06
And it was actually such a relief to me. Recently, there was a meta-analysis that came out that was looking at, I guess, hypertrophy adaptations or muscle growth outcomes under different RPE conditions. So rate of perceived exertion. So looking at like an RPE 7, 8, 9, and 10. And where the statistical differences between muscle growth, whether you train at a 7 or a 10 out of 10 and what was.

48:31
So great to hear. What was that? Anywhere in that range, the results are really similar. So my attitude towards exercise is always do or die. So, you know, it gave me, oh, I can go in and actually just enjoy this. Do work relatively hard, you know, 70% out of my maximum up to 100%. And I can still get really good results.

48:56
That is, because part of my, so I love going into the gym and I'm a runner, but I've always loved strength training as well. But I always suspect that I do not work hard enough, or at least up until the last couple of years, but I'm really trying to sort of work harder when I'm in the gym. So that is great news, what you've just shared with that. Yeah. The new research out there, Holly. Yes. Because also a lot on social media is the idea that, you know, in order to get to...

49:24
progress or to maintain health, your health is to lift heavy actually. Like particularly women of my age and perimenopause and menopause and beyond, like the type of weights that you want to hit is, you know, three to five reps, do five sets and it's hard intimidating type work which is, you know...

49:49
It's that'll go for a run for a lot of women. They're like, Oh, I'm just going to go for a run because that's easier. It's less intimidating. I know what I'm doing. Yeah, I can relate to that. I mean, for the longest time, obviously my I've evolved to like every woman in the gym, I'm sure. Um, I first kind of transitioned into, you know, hypertrophy based training. So, you know, with purely the goal of muscle building in mind. And I did that for probably six or seven years without giving any thought.

50:15
to like pure like true strength training. And I guess by definition, strength training is one to six rep maximums. So, you know, you're not necessarily going in with anything left in the tank, it's to hit RPE 10. You know, you're going to failure. And you know, that whole, that concept of training for me was very intimidating because I mean, you're dealing with your physical strength, like it's scary. So.

50:42
I'm really glad that I did, you know, a period, maybe three years where in my non-bodybuilding, like get on stage, be a bikini competitor stage, I would actually switch over and do a bit of powerlifting in my off season. I have done a couple of competitions. I'm by no means very strong, I think.

50:59
Um, I, I enjoy being athletic and functional. And I think if I was to really test my true limits in that area, I would be so injured. But anyhow, one of the benefits that I do think for anybody who's interested in, or maybe like considering doing strength specific training is it really does give you a greater bearing on like your true, like physical capacities, like what are your physical feats? And after doing that, and again, I did it with.

51:26
You know, all of the precautionary you need. I had a lifting belt. I used knee sleeves. I used wrist wraps. Um, you know, I did it with catch bars. I was doing it the safest way possible. And that did give me a lot of confidence. I will say the knee sleeves for anybody that is trying to do squats, um, and hasn't ever used a knee sleeve. Oh my God, your joints are just like, it's like music to their ears. But it was, it was really beneficial because it.

51:53
It also opened my eyes to, wow, you're not training that hard when you train hypertrophy training. Sorry. It kind of, it encouraged me to push a little bit harder in the area for muscle growth. And that was probably one of the reasons why I wasn't growing. You know, I was just spinning my wheels because truthfully, based on my true strength capacity at the time, I was probably only lifting at an RPE of five. You know, I was chasing a sweat.

52:20
I was trying to get my heart rate up, but I wasn't actually getting my, like working my muscle to the point where all those little motor units within the muscle are fully fatigued, which is what signals muscle growth. So I was training outside of that desirable RPE range. So I liked training that way. And I think, you know, it's very fun to go into the gym and challenge yourself and have a performance-based goal. So if you've got an athletic background, I think it's a great pairing.

52:48
But I also found because of my competitiveness, I would probably push myself a little bit too hard without the proper recoveries. And I, you know, I just was, I was going way too hard. And I was always sore. I like my bones ached. It was a different type of sore than I'd ever experienced. And then I was getting injuries. So as much as I love true strength training, you know, for the benefits that it had in terms of me, you know, calibrating my true strength.

53:19
Um, I wouldn't continue to do it, or at least I do it a lot less often now, at least in that rep range, because I value being able to walk and move free of pain and discomfort. And, you know, I want to be in this for a long time. You know, we know the benefits of strength training and resistance training in terms of like longevity and, you know, staying muscly, strong, functional, having good mobility, stretching, lengthening. Um, so I, I truly believe that there is a nice.

53:47
balanced trajectory where we can kind of keep cruising along pretty injury free, getting a little bit stronger, growing a little bit of muscle without the big extremes, you know, where you're, oh, I worked so hard that I'm now injured and I'm out for 12 weeks. Or, you know, same in dieting. Like I don't do things in extremes anymore because usually anything done in that level of extreme either end of the spectrum, it comes with sacrifice or some kind of consequence. So.

54:15
I do a little bit of that type of training now, but mostly hypertrophy specific. Sorry, you know, eight plus reps, again, working in that RPE range of seven to 10. And yeah, just picking the muscle groups that I really care about. Yeah, nice one. And I've done a couple of your programs, Holly, and they're always fun because they're often gluten shoulders. And I'm like, well, this is good. Because as a runner, you just don't have any glutes. So it's quite fun to train every once in a while.

54:42
I discovered that after running for many years. Now when it comes to, obviously protein is a big buzzword. I mean, you've been in the trenches for so long, even though you're not on social media so much, you must see just how the conversation has moved somewhat from just carbs. Is it carbs? Is it fat? Or do we really need to focus on protein? How have your views changed, if they have Holly, over the last few years on...

55:11
the amount of protein we need to improve our physique and then just maintain that improvement. Like what are the things you think about when you're dialing in protein for a client? Yeah, so my ideas and beliefs have changed. I think they've evolved as the science has evolved. So in terms of the optimal protein reference range, there are two common ways that we hear it referred to or the recommendations.

55:39
One of those recommendations is just based on total body weight and that number for example Is about 1.6 grams of protein per kilogram of total body weight Now for me as somebody that is I think 63 kilograms I operate in pounds now It's so we're going back from Australia to the US anyway

55:59
Oh, I think I'm about 63 kilos. So you know, at that number, I would need about 97 grams of protein, maybe 103. I might be getting my wires crossed here. But it's it's not that high. So my preference when it comes to prescribing a protein intake is actually based on somebody's known lean body mass because it is that lean tissue that fat free mass that really garners why we have a need for protein. So

56:27
I use the reference range of 1.8 to 2.9, so a pretty big range of protein per kilogram of lean body mass. And anywhere in that range is pretty good. So it gives people flexibility. And again, I used to hold myself to this idea that more is better. And again, prior to maybe 2015, the research wasn't necessarily clear on that. So...

56:55
I was like, well, it can't hurt me if I eat more. So, you know, I'd always stick to the upper end of that reference range. But I also realized that doing that, whilst it didn't have any detrimental effects to my body composition, and obviously I'm healthy, you know, I don't have any pre-existing kidney disease or anything like that, and I'm not old, I'm still relatively young. So I wasn't concerned about it, but it was actually contributing to my, you know, disordered eating behaviors. It was really skewing the ratio of my meals. So...

57:23
know, because my protein target was so high, I didn't really feel like I had a whole lot of flexibility with carbohydrate and fat. And I mean, I loved carbohydrate and fats. So I felt very deprived and very restricted and it just kept the ball rolling with my ED. So recently I actually have brought it down by quite a, quite an amount. Like I'm talking like 40 grams less than what I used to try and shoot for.

57:49
Um, and you know, I have not lost anything. In fact, I've still gained muscle in a couple of the muscle groups. I've really been trying to grow for competition. So that's kind of been my experience and also what the recommendations would indicate, um, for older clients and people that are over the age of 40. I know that doesn't, it's not really that old, but I mean, that's the recommendations over the age of 40. I'm almost old myself now, I guess. Um.

58:12
But I do think there's probably benefits just knowing that, you know, there is increased muscle sarcopenia, you know, as we age, we're not able to get the same kind of signaling to grow our muscles. It's somewhat blunted with aging. So for clients over the age of 40, I kind of encourage them to stay in the upper third of their range, but not to the detriment of their mental health or physical health. I mean, if it's contributing to...

58:39
you know, stress in their lifestyle because they're really struggling to eat that way, like it's really stressful, you know, or it's causing disorder eating behaviours or a dysfunctional relationship with food, I would say to them, bring it down, like stay in the range then, that's better than nothing. And sometimes there's science and what it says is perfect and optimal, and then there's the human. So, you know, we have to kind of give a little bit of flexibility to that. Yeah, nice one. And I love how balanced you are.

59:08
on your approach to nutrition as you show on your YouTube clips and of course on social media and like you love eating art or you love eating art and you enjoy a drink and the rest of it, which I also enjoy a drink in a responsible sort of way. But I think what you do a really great job of Holly is showing that you can be balanced and you don't have to give up your life for your physique related goals. And I think that's something that...

59:37
lots of people appreciate. Yeah, I really try to practice what I preach again, which is exactly why things have changed so much over the years. You know, I previously, and I mean, obviously, you probably know I was involved in the creation of a nutrition coaching app in 2018. And I am in the process now of building, as I've kind of stepped away or navigating, I guess, stepping out of that company and into my own.

01:00:05
Yeah, I don't always track macros anymore. I mean, it was a wonderful skill to have learned. And I did it for about 15 years. And I would encourage anybody who hasn't done flexible dieting and used, you know, macro based, you know, nutrition approaches to give it a try, because it's so informative. It helps. It's a process of education, really, like learning the constituents of the foods that you like. And then how can you fit them into your diet? I look

01:00:34
Okay, if my body requires I have this much money in the bank, all right, how much do I want to give to that meal? How much do I want to have, you know, at this dinner? And I just think it gives people, you know, a bit more like relative. It just makes sense. So, but in my off season, I don't track macros anymore. Again, just for a whole host of different reasons. It's not that I am.

01:00:59
am you poopooing flexible dieting? I still work with many clients on flexible dieting. I'd say 50% of my clients are tracking macros, but there is, you've got to look at the individual, assess certain risks, you know, I think from a disorder eating background, like I would never put somebody now knowing what I know and the education and research that exists in that space. It's not a place that I would want to encourage somebody to go.

01:01:23
So, for ethical reasons, I can't knowingly prescribe macros to somebody that is struggling with an eating disorder. So, an intuitive and mindful eating approach, which is what I do now when I'm not getting on stage, is probably a really good strategy. So yeah. Yeah. And I will. I really, I came from a background of not really using macros at all in my...

01:01:52
in my nutrition practice until a few years ago. And the way I feel it can be really helpful for people is that you stop catastrophizing over certain decisions. If you have three hot chips from a plate, you're not like, oh my God, I've just blown my whole calorie budget. Because even though you're not necessarily counting, in your head, you're running some sort of mental tally regardless. And it's not until you actually see things on paper, you're like, actually, I can fit that in and still live my life and meet my goals.

01:02:21
I feel like people are really afraid to, it's almost like they feel it's confrontational to actually have a look at what they do. So they are almost in denial about tracking and about sort of taking account, I suppose, of what they eat. But I mean, when you get real and you start looking, and it's not a forever thing, right? It's just, it's such a good learning tool. Yeah, I will say, I mean, I totally agree with you there. It shouldn't be a forever thing, though I've had several clients kind of say to me over the years,

01:02:48
know, it doesn't give me any stress. I don't feel like this is detracting from my life in any way. And I mean, I have to take them for face value. I mean, if it's truly not a burden at all, and they have the bandwidth to track, and they really enjoy it, that's fine. I think when it's a fear of letting go of tracking, because they don't know whether they can trust themselves, they don't know whether they have the intuition and the ability to kind of listen to their hunger cues, that's when

01:03:17
apply a little bit of pushback and challenge that narrative because you know, that's a fear based behaviour. It's not one that's, you know, optional or decision. They're not making that decision necessarily for the right reasons. It's out of concern for, you know, not being able to do something instinctually. So yeah, there's definitely a time and a place for macro tracking. Yeah, nice one, Holly. And so just to finish up, I'm really mindful of your time.

01:03:47
You seem to have a lot going on in your business as well, the Be a Body research, or Be a Brain, I'm sorry, research summaries that come out every month. Research review? Yes, research review. There you go. I mean, what a great resource. And you're involved in actually conducting some of these studies and writing. Like, haven't you just published like some papers over the last couple of years as well,

01:04:11
Yeah, so I've been involved in three different papers over the last 12 months. One of them was in training volume, so just looking at differences in volume and how that affects hypertrophy outcomes. But the most recent paper was an investigation kind of reviewing the literature on lengthened partials and its superiority perhaps for muscle growth adaptations.

01:04:36
I wouldn't, I'm definitely, I'd love to say I'm a full-time researcher, but that is, that's an entire career in and of itself. I'm very fortunate to be, I guess, dating somebody that is a full-time researcher and his knowledge on this subject just blows me away. So I'm very lucky to have him. But yes, I have been involved in a couple of studies and it's changed my perception of.

01:05:01
how I used to train and has been really eye opening also as somebody that is, I would say I'm on the social media like evidence-based social media side of the fence. Listening to the perspectives of actual researchers, there is a lot of conflicting information and opinions between these two spaces. So I think on social media.

01:05:24
there is I guess people will perceive certain individuals as the experts. You know, they're evidence-based, you know, coaches. But when you then step over to the researchers, the people that are publishing and have hundreds of studies in, you know, specific areas, they disagree by quite a lot. And they're almost being silenced on social media for having a different opinion. So that has been.

01:05:51
quite an unfortunate, I guess, experience for me to see that, but it it awared me of what was kind of going on and it's it's meant, or at least for me, it's led me to be a lot more cautious in what I say and, you know, what I put out on social media. I'm, unfortunately, or maybe this is a good thing, I think it's made me a lot more mindful of just how, like, what I say and I won't just put anything up unless I can get behind it.

01:06:19
Whereas previously, you know, the younger version of myself is perhaps a little bit more careless and less cautious Not thinking about the potential consequences that it can have on an individual's life I've definitely become a lot more You know mindful of what I say and do which it's a high standard to operate at but I mean I wouldn't change it. I think it's just led me to become a better coach. That's for sure Yeah, no, and that's certainly evident when we see you out there Holly and

01:06:48
Thank you so much for your time this morning, your afternoon. I really appreciate it and for all that you do. So I'm really looking forward to seeing how things change for you over the next year or so and how you just continue to develop. It's awesome. Thank you. I appreciate the time being on here today.

01:07:20
Alrighty, hopefully you enjoyed that. It was a real delight to chat to Holly after following her for a number of years now. Next week on the podcast, I speak to my mate, Grant Schofield, as we head into 2025. So we just get the low down on where Grant's at, what he's thinking, and of course, we always love a great discussion about those practical life strategies to move you into 2025, although we did record this interview.

01:07:50
a month or so ago, that'll be next week. And also, do not forget that I have a sale on my fixed term meal plans, 50% off using the code XMAS50 right through to New Year's Eve. So you can start 2025 the way that you mean to go on. All right team, you have the best rest of your festive week and catch you next week.