00:00
Hey everyone, it's Mikki here, you're listening to Mikkipedia, and this week on the podcast I speak to Dr. Tera Fazzino, a translational research scientist whose work delves into the complex interplay between addiction, obesity and eating disorders.

00:19
With a PhD in experimental psychology and an MA in clinical practices in psychology, Dr. Fazzino brings a unique lens to understanding eating behaviors and the neurobiology behind food consumption. Together we explore her research career, including the pivotal moments that shaped her understanding of eating behavior and weight management. We dive deep into the neurobiological factors that drive overeating and food addiction-like behaviors,

00:47
unpacking how our brains influence the choices we make in a world of highly palatable foods. Dr. Fazzino shares insights into the parallels between food addiction and other addictive behaviours, challenges common misconceptions about food intake, and discusses surprising findings from her studies on binge eating behaviours. We also examine the delicate balance between biological and psychological factors in weight management and consider what more we need.

01:15
to know about our modern food environment to help people make better food choices. And finally, Dr. Fasino offers practical research backed advice on how to optimize eating habits and break cycles of overeating, starting with actionable steps that anyone can take. I think this conversation is packed with invaluable insights into how we think about food, behavior, and the systems that shape our choices. And I really think you're gonna love it.

01:41
Dr. Tara Fasino is a translational research scientist whose work is dedicated to understanding the mechanisms that contribute to health risks through a combination of clinical and experimental methods. With a PhD in experimental psychology and an MA in clinical practices in psychology, she brings a unique perspective to studying health risk behaviors and developing innovative research questions. Her work focuses on the intersection of addiction,

02:09
obesity and eating disorders, exploring shared reinforcement processes that drive these behaviors. A key aspect of her research involves leveraging mobile technology to assess and intervene on health risk behaviors in real time within participants' natural environments. And Dr. Terra is also an associate professor and conducts her research in the Department of Psychology at the University of Canvass.

02:38
bio on the university page. All right then, so before we crack on into this fascinating conversation, I would like to remind you that the best way to support this podcast is to hit the subscribe button on your favorite podcast listening platform, because that increases the visibility of Micropedia and amongst literally thousands of other podcasts out there. So more people get the opportunity to hear from experts I have on my show, such as Dr. Tara Casino. All right, team, enjoy the conversation.

03:10
Tara, thank you so much for joining me this morning to chat about one of my favorite topics. And I don't know about you, but I feel like the whole field of nutrition, processed food, and how it affects our brain, it feels quite contentious if I'm out there on Twitter or listening to social media. Is that just me as an observer and interested party, or is this you yourself as a researcher as well? No, I think...

03:38
There's a lot of discussion right now, more, and it really seems to have picked up quite a bit since I even got into this area. So, no, I think it's a bit in the zeitgeist at the moment. Yeah. Interesting. And I absolutely want to talk to you about that. But first, can you sort of walk us through how you got into the field of looking at the neurobiology behind food and how it impacts us?

04:08
where people start and sort of where they are now. Sure, certainly. So my background and my training for my PhD was in the field of addiction, topically. But then I did a brief kind of bit of work in the obesity treatment research space. And in those experiences, I noticed that a very common thread.

04:39
throughout people's experiences with trying to lose weight and then keep it off long term was that they kept on saying that there's something that would draw them back to the food. It would be specific types of foods or kind of food in general, but there was a general sense that there was something about the food that was really difficult for people to stay away from and to resist.

05:07
what about the food specifically might be doing that because hearing people talk and seeing there were a lot of parallels actually between what we see in the substance use field use in greater quantities than intended. I think overeating is a pretty common phenomenon here. Eating despite consequences, so that could be health consequences. And so...

05:34
some of the way that people were describing the effects of these foods seemed almost more like a substance to me, closer to a substance than a whole food that would come from nature like an apple. That's how I got into this area. Yeah, super interesting. Is food addiction recognized in that diagnostic statistic manual of conditions, the DCM categories now?

06:03
Not as of yet. So it is not there currently. But there's been really a lot of discussion recently, I think about the concept of food addiction with. So my impression is that like the the the premise of food addiction was really popularized and kind of came on the radar in a big way in 2009, I believe with Dr. Ashley Gearhart's

06:31
um, um, you know, first paper sort of using a scale to characterize that, that came from the addiction space and she adapted it. So I think for, for some time there was a lot of discussion about, is this a thing? Is this not, you know, where does everybody sit with this? But then I think with some of the food, um, you know, and, and, you know, literature about ultra processed foods and hyper-pubble foods starting to gain more traction.

06:58
That in some way has been like the science catching up a little bit with what she put out actually earlier, which was, you know, identifying the clinical kind of phenomenon and a potential consequence of consumption of foods. Yeah. It's so interesting because, you know, it's an, I'm keen to hear, you know,

07:19
Is there a definition for food addiction as it stands now? Because when you're out there talking to people as a nutritionist, I mean, that's what I do. Sometimes it's a bit of a throwaway comment like, I'm so addicted to that food. They don't necessarily mean that they probably fit some sort of diagnostic criteria, but there are people who literally, who do appear to have an addiction to...

07:48
to food and to a particular type of food. So does our understanding, does our sort of layperson understanding of addiction, does that fit with what you would categorize as a food addiction per se? Like what is the definition? So the definition is based on using, so Dr. Gerhard used the Diagnostic and Statistical

08:17
to foods that she described generally as being difficult to stop eating. And so the criteria actually directly parallel what we use and is in the diagnostic framework for substance use disorders. So that's use despite, you know, consequences, withdrawal, craving, tolerance, and other related kind of...

08:45
difficulties and impairments in functioning. Yeah, yeah. So I already sort of asked you a little bit about if there was, you know, what got you into the field and interested in it. When you started seeing parallels with what you were seeing in the obesity management space, compared to your work in substance abuse and addiction, like were other people on the same page, Tara?

09:13
I think not too many. I think there was, so there was a lot of folks who kind of had the impression as far as I could tell that, you know, at least in the space that I worked in that like, you know, food addiction, it was kind of a question mark of like, what are we really talking about? Is this, how could this be, you know, like is this really a thing or is this a variation on either an eating disorder or, you know, an obesity, phenotype, you know, so there was kind of a lot of.

09:41
ongoing discussion about what are we actually talking about? Is this really what we're dealing with and what we're talking about? So, and I was actually, initially when I came into that space and not having the knowledge or having looked into, you know, what about the foods is exactly going on that might influence our behavior. I was also not entirely sure what to think of it. And it certainly wasn't, I certainly wasn't one of the folks who, you know, kind of heard about it was like,

10:11
automatically convinced. Yeah. So, yeah. And so, can you talk to us about those neurobiological factors behind eating behaviors? So what is it about the foods that influences our brain and makes us overeat? Sure. So, the thing that I kind of like to start out by saying when I talk about kind of these neurobiological processes and how foods can do kind of different things is to kind of start out with a baseline.

10:41
You know, food in general, so like fresh whole food that comes directly from nature is designed to be, you know, like pleasurable and also reinforcing for us to consume. Like that's inherent in our neurobiology. When we consume it, you know, a new, you know, like whole food that comes from nature, you know, like that activates our dopamine reward, neurocircuitry. And that is by design. Because like

11:11
we need to eat food to survive, right? So like that's ingrained in us and that's there at our baseline. There are however some differences and some distinctions between whole fresh foods that come directly from nature and foods that we tend to see and be concerned about as being difficult to stop eating, having addictive qualities, that type of thing. So fresh whole foods that come from nature, they typically have...

11:37
one single palatability related nutrient that kind of gives us this flavor profile. So if you take like a fresh apple or fresh strawberries, there's a light sweetness to them because they have sugar in them. And if you take like whole almonds or even like a fresh piece of fish, you know, that'll typically have some fat in it because it gives it, you know, savory flavor. And, but these nutrients often also occur in combination with other nutrients.

12:07
that help to promote our digestion and satiety. So that's like having sugar in an apple, but it also is combined with a good amount of water and fiber. And likewise for the example of the fish or the almonds, there's a bit of protein. And so those types of food, the combination of one single palatability related nutrient,

12:34
occurring along with these satiety promoting nutrients is really kind of the whole market, you know, as I kind of view it with fresh whole foods that come from nature. And so what happens, you know, so these foods, you know, reinforce our, you know, eating behavior because that's what we need to happen to survive. And so the problem is that though that some foods and a lot of foods now that we have in our food environment have characteristics that are

13:02
pretty different from what I just described to you. And those have been shown to do different things to our brains and to our behavior. Yep, nice one. So what do they do? So what we have seen from a variety of kind of sources, really the most compelling work came from animal models. Now, almost 15 or 20 years ago, some of the stuff is not new.

13:30
And so, but in humans, you know, there's been a lot of progression since that time. And so, what we've seen in, for example, in human fRM, like functional magnetic resonance imaging studies, fMRI, is that when individuals, when participants consume a food, or I think it was like a milkshake or something, something that they get in the scanner.

13:56
that had combinations of palatability-related nutrients, so let's say fat and sugar at kind of high-ish levels, that they were able to observe that their brain reward responsivity was actually substantially higher than when they consumed a milkshake that had either high fat or high sugar only. So they were able to demonstrate that there is a synergistic effect on our brain reward responsivity when we have

14:25
when we consume this combination of nutrients that is above and beyond what any single nutrient would produce in isolation. And so there's that kind of underlying it. And these foods can produce an acutely rewarding eating experience and can basically be difficult to stop eating. Yeah. It's so interesting.

14:51
Now, this may seem like a ridiculous question, but when you look at it on like an MRI image and you're assessing what's happening in the brain with regards to a fat sugar sort of combo, does the subjectively, like if you were to also ask me what I thought and how I thought, like would that marry up as well? Like, am I, I don't know, this sounds weird, but am I aware of how pleasurable it is and therefore I want to seek it out? Or is there some, or am I not as aware?

15:21
And maybe that's an issue. No, that's actually a fantastic question. Because in the field, there's generally a distinction that we make between two processes that can often seem very similar, but they're actually distinct. One is how much we like the food, and how pleasurable it is, and how much we might rate it when we try it. How much enjoyment are we getting from this food?

15:48
And so that can, and that's kind of, you know, the subjective experience of, you know, food pleasantness. But then we also have something called wanting. And that is really based on the drive and the desire to seek out and consume the specific type of food. And so that's really, and what we see in the addiction field and what we are starting to see in the food space as well,

16:17
is that these same processes that, you know, liking and wanting are very well established kind of processes in the addiction space. And so when we look, and wanting really is the compulsive, is what we see when folks are seeking a substance in kind of a very, you know, compulsive manner. They have like high craving, they have a high motivational drive to seek out and consume a substance. And so what we see is that,

16:43
with people who have exhibit pretty strong wanting for a specific type of food or foods. They also have this really strong drive to seek out and consume those foods. They're much more willing to work harder in like a laboratory-based task to obtain these foods. So that's actually something that is very, it's distinct. These paths are distinct neurobiologically and also behaviorally.

17:12
And so that's how we can, so really what you experience in the moment is, you know, the initially would be the liking. But after repeated consumption, the wanting really comes on board. And that's what we see to be the most problematic when driving consumption and over consumption of related behaviors. And so that's what I have been particularly interested in with respect to

17:38
being able to understand what about these foods might drive that wanting process that is really difficult, you know, to, you know, once it's on board and, you know, in kind of a powerful way. Yeah, that's super interesting because of course, you know, you can take two different people and we can both enjoy chocolate, like a piece of chocolate. But if I enjoy my 92% chocolate and then I'm satisfied and I liked it.

18:07
but I don't have this drive for more yet someone else might enjoy the same chocolate, but that the wanting can kick in and that is the difference between us. Yeah, to some degree. And this wanting piece can really be, so there's some question about, you know, there's probably some degree of just individual level differences between how people experience that with related to that, you know, chocolate example, right? As well as a lot of other things. But the wanting can also come on board through exposure history over time.

18:37
were to consume the same food that has addictive qualities over time, what might happen is that the wanting can kink in in a greater fashion and they may develop what we call sensitization, which is the hypersensitivity to food cues in the environment that signal the presence of that food might be in vicinity.

19:05
And so that's what drives the, you know, motivates like, you know, the wanting and the seeking of the food, even in some cases, despite consequences. So therefore does reducing exposure reduce the wanting? It depends on if there was to some degree, how much pre-exposure. So in general, you know, less exposure, particularly among vulnerable populations. So

19:35
That can include infants and small children. Exposure among populations that are pretty naive and have very sort of like neurobiological systems that are very highly attuned to their environment and their nutritional environment. Those types of settings, if possible, avoiding foods that can trigger that really strong response early on is the hypothesis that

20:04
can be a useful factor in not at least having vulnerable populations such as infants kind of establishing that very early on. Yeah. What I find with, say, clients, and I find it interesting is that the foods that, and we'll talk about what is hyperpalatable and what is ultra-processed and the rest of it, but some foods which you wouldn't necessarily think are...

20:31
There's a difference between ultra-processed food and hyper-palatable foods, isn't there? Yeah. Because I'm thinking, like, there's something about bread. For so many people, they smell bread, they smell toast. But if you were to categorize bread, it's not ultra-processed, is it? It's sort of less down that processing chain than, say, NutriGrain or Lucky Charms or something like that.

20:54
Yeah, so I will tell you to start out with that I am not an expert with the ultra processed Oh good, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they're quite nuanced and can be kind of complex to determine for a case like bread as much as I understand because, you know, if there's enriched ingredients, then that might kick it into the category of being ultra processed. But if not, if not necessarily, you know, wouldn't necessarily be ultra processed. There's a lot of nuance there.

21:23
But yeah, and so ultra-processing is really based on the nature and extent of industrial processing that a food goes through, which is separate from hyper-palatability, which really focuses on combinations of pala nutrients that occur together in thresholds that we typically don't find in nature. Yeah. Okay. So there's no peanut butter tree out there either, because this is a big one. So when you were talking about exposure.

21:52
and the liking and the wanting. There are so many people who just cannot control themselves around peanut butter, or similarly almond butter, or some sort of thing which has, I mean, it's a healthful food. If you just have raw peanuts and salt, it's nothing, it's healthy. But if you're eating half a jar, and then every time you walk past your pantry, it's calling your name.

22:21
and you can't stop it just a spoonful if you're having it, then all of these are sort of hallmarks of what you're describing with the wanting. Would that be right? That's exactly it. And I will tell you, peanut butter is so often categorized as hyperpotable because it has elevated fat and sodium. And so this- Yes. Yes. And so this is kind of the nice part about the hyperpotable food definition. It's because

22:46
because it's just based on nutrient combinations, you can apply it to any food, including foods prepared at home, including foods that might have kind of a health halo because they didn't, you know, they still somewhat resemble the foods that they came from in nature. But they're not all the way down the line for ultra-process. But so yeah, exactly. And so, and to kind of further illustrate this point too, just because it's peanut butter doesn't automatically like inherently mean that it would be hyperpalatable. If you just have,

23:16
If you just go to the grocery store and you're able to find a jar of peanut butter that is literally just peanuts, no salt added, it's not hyperpalatable. You are so right. No one enjoys that. Far less, right? And that's because there's no salt. You really need the salt on board to get that to the threshold of being like, oh my god, this is so hard to stop once I start.

23:45
Yeah, such a good point. And so it's the same kind of premise with, you know, nuts. Yep. Unsalted. Yep. I don't know how many people are really going to go to town on like an entire, you know, like, like, you know, thing of nuts that are unsalted because it's just, it's just the, what's all. But once you add sodium on board. Yes. Another story. What about the texture, Tera? Because when I think of nuts, like I, like, again, like I know people who

24:14
They love the crunch of an almond. And sometimes when you're dieting, there are a lot of foods that are taken out of your diet because there's no crunch. But if someone says to you, but you can have eight almonds and you haven't, for what it's worth, I've never ever recommended anyone eat almonds. I'm like, oh, it's too hard. And I just, let's leave those out for now. But like sometimes does the texture make a difference? Cause some people say it's the crunch or something like that. They miss that they are born to.

24:43
I mean, I certainly think there are individual differences on like, I mean, texture certainly plays a role in general for, you know, making a food pleasant to consume. But there are also, I think, individual differences in just like what people prefer or what they like to consume. So yeah, I think, you know, that certainly kind of makes sense on an individual difference level. But, you know, you could try the, see if it's useful for almonds that are unsalted, you know, there might be at least less of a risk.

25:13
you know, that somebody might just keep going on them because they have the salt on board as well. And those are just really hard to stop at. Yeah. So true. And in fact, if I'm thinking about that, like the unsalted sort of raw almond example, I'm getting a picture of someone sitting at their desk at work, it's three o'clock, they're sort of bored as well as maybe slightly peckish. And probably the combination of those things is driving and overeating, not like this, I've got to get these almonds on board because I can't stop eating them type, you know. Yeah.

25:42
It's very that these foods are kind of sneaky because they're so it's it's not necessarily the case, right? But as you described, like somebody's just going all in there like I have to have these. It's like can be extremely passive, like fairly, you know, kind of passive overconsumption, barely noticeable. But that that is what I think is really kind of the challenge with having these types of foods in our food supply because they're.

26:08
It's like if you have a piece of cheesecake, you're going to have in the front of your mind. Well, many people may have in the front of their mind, especially people who are trying to engage in dieting or weight loss or something like that. I need to be paying attention to this cheesecake because I'm going to need to stop. You probably get this massive piece, right? Or at least here in the US you would. I don't know about your portion sizes. Yeah.

26:34
a can of nuts in the middle of your workday, that's not something that people are going to expect to have that same challenge associated with it. So I don't think that it's even on the radar for a lot of people. Yeah. And you said something really interesting that I want to come back to earlier, that if we have the importance of protecting our vulnerable people from having this...

27:02
exposure early on, which must be so hard given what you've just said about the food supply. If statistics are correct, then 67% of the foods, that's so exact, isn't it? The 16% of the foods in our grocery stores are, they're ultra processed, they're not necessarily hyper palatable, but I imagine there's plenty of crossover between the two. Exactly, there's quite a bit of a overlap.

27:32
In that sense, then, it's like that early development stage, that stage, that's when it would be most important for parents to think about the foods that they're feeding their kids, right? That's kind of where we think it starts and where it's really important to look. I have some collaborative work with a colleague who does infant research and we are trying to...

27:59
you know secure kind of a larger scale, you know federal grant to study this exactly because again coming from my addiction background we one thing that is a very strong focus and we really attend to is early exposure to substances because we know that it early exposure to substances, especially during stages of ongoing neural development can be

28:27
particularly, you know, either, you know, cause negative consequences to how the brain develops or how behaviors develop. And there's a lot of concern. And so we really identify like people with early exposure and early exposure in the addiction field, take alcohol or something. It's like teens, right? But that's, you know, but we use that as a marker. Like if we know somebody has early exposure, then there's a higher risk that they're going, you know, like of.

28:57
risky use and potential disorder later on. And so when we apply that to the food, and in my work on hyperpopul foods, we realized that it was like, well, you gotta go back to when infants start consuming food. So that's where we've started to look. And yeah, absolutely. And in our sort of preliminary work, we had...

29:24
we looked at a reasonably large sample of infants from the US and they were 9 to 15 months of age, so early-ish in that complementary feeding period. And we found that over 90% of them had already consumed hyperpalatable foods. And not only that, was that approximately 50% of their daily calories from food came from hyperpalatable foods. Oh, wow. Yeah.

29:53
So is it how food is packaged and like parents are buying it because they believe it's a healthy choice as much as a convenient choice? You know, marketing on food is really clever. It is. I think it's just unavoidable. In our food supply here, we have like roughly 70% of the food supply is hyperpalatable. And then, you know, you add that with older processed and, you know, which is a lot of overlap with some distinction and

30:19
And you can you can barely avoid it, you know, so in one hand, it's like, it's given how much of the food supply that occupies, it's not surprising that infants would have the exposure that and the consumption that they do, but it is especially concerning. Yeah, for sure. And you mentioned negative consequences on the potential for negative consequences on the brain. And you're obviously very well versed in the sort of addictive substances space. And so

30:49
because of the similarities here, does it change the brain from an early age? Is this what we see? That is what we want to test. Some of that I don't think is really, it's been difficult to ask that question exactly because most infants come in and they've already had so much exposure. By the time you're studying an adult, it's like, well.

31:16
You know, they've had what a minimum of 18 years of exposure. You know, so we don't know because, you know, they didn't really show up with it. And so that is one of the questions that we want to ask. And the concern is that, yes, there may be consequences, especially at that early age and that developmentally sensitive period. You know, exposure to these foods could serve to basically dysregulate food reinforcement processes.

31:44
And which could leave, you know, infants really with this wanting and this high motivation to seek out and consume, you know, hyper palatable foods. And this can largely occur at the expense of them being interested in or wanting like whole fresh foods that come from nature because hyper palatable foods are like, you know, kind of have an, you know, they're, they're artificially kind of an exaggerated way, you know.

32:10
reinforcing, you know, whereas Whole Foods that come in nature are, but not to that same extreme degree. And it really is quite a concern. And some of the work, really, if you go back to animal models, which is what we can really see very clearly, is that is, and some of what I think really startled me when I first started looking into this area and to think like, oh, this actually could be real.

32:38
in terms of the addictiveness and the addiction is that, you know, there were a couple of seminal studies that were conducted where rats were fed like a cafeteria, they called it a cafeteria diet, but it was basically, you know, like a bunch of hyperpalatable foods and they fed them these foods, they let them have free access. And what they saw was they saw not only did these rats, you know, kind of briefly this like gain a lot of weight,

33:07
But they also exhibited neuro adaptive changes in their brain reward neuro circuitry from the exposure to these foods, which those researchers could pinpoint. And it was the same changes that we see when people consume addictive substances. So it's the same neural adaptation. And so that is a concern and it's a major one. Yeah. And people would...

33:36
would argue that you've just talked about like preclinical trials that aren't in humans, but because of, but the obviously, I'm just going to assume by the way you talked about it, that it's actually a very good model for what we might see in humans. But I guess until we see it, we don't see it until we actually have the studies, we don't have them. What's that? Yeah, I mean, it's very, it's such, it's so difficult to because we can't.

34:02
randomly assigned infants. Yeah. Right? It's like, there's some ethical qualms. But also I think, you know, there's, there are really compelling, there is a lot of really compelling work that can be done in the animal space because as much as we like to think we're different, there's a lot of human similar overlap neurobiologically and behaviorally.

34:32
best in a sense to be tested in animal models. And if you see something really compelling, then you should start to be concerned and start to look at humans, which is basically why I started to do that. Yeah, no, nice one. And Tara, what about from an epigenetic perspective? Like does what parents eat impact on, or do we know or do we have a hypothesis that that's going to impact on the wanting sort of aspect for infants?

35:02
That's a

35:31
different things that can go through the breast milk as well during breastfeeding. So we know that generally, I don't really think we know as much about this area related to, you know, hyper-paddle, ultra-processed foods because it's new, new-ish relatively speaking. But again, it also gets difficult to test because our population has such high exposure. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I guess it's that nature versus nurture.

36:01
aspect as well, right? Yeah, I mean, certainly some folks have genetic risk factors for developing obesity. So that is certainly in the mix as well. But also kind of takes me to kind of the premise of like, if we have folks in the environment that we know are vulnerable, and our general population, we have 70% of the US population has a

36:29
body mass index that's reflective of overweight or obesity. It's like these are major public health consequences at the population level and we have additional individuals who are really at risk due to genetics or environmental exposure or combination of all sorts of things. So the premise really does become, okay, so we should probably be doing something about this at the environment level to protect people instead of leaving people to just try to navigate it.

36:59
Yeah. And it seems like there's so much, it feels like there must be some cognitive dissonance somewhere out there in the really important sort of seats that sit around and make these decisions because we've been focusing on obesity for as long as it's been an issue, which hasn't from a history perspective been actually that long. It's only been a few decades, right? And they're putting things into place to try and solve this and things are getting worse. So you know, like it just, it's...

37:28
It feels like, I don't know, like who's paying any attention? And you know, what are some of the driving forces that are causing the, you know, there's no new solutions being put to the table. It always seems to be just more of the same. That's a bit frustrating. Oh, certainly. And it's not that we don't know anything that we could do either. And you know, so it's extremely, I think it's extremely problematic. I mean, I can, you know, I kind of,

37:58
know the most about the US, you know, food environment at this point, but I can say that, you know, there is, there are reasons that a lot of it is financially based when you track it back to why, for example, the NIH, the National Institutes of Health here in the US, which is the primary, you know, federal granting agency for health related grants, including those focused on obesity. You know, there's a reason that

38:27
most of that money goes to focusing on individual level interventions. And very little of it focuses on systemic or population or ways that we can change the environment. And that's because there are certain entities that don't want us to look there, including lobbyists and companies that have influenced how NIH allocates its portfolio and things like that. So

38:56
I think that we have a system that is really catered in a way to food companies and to making sure that they're successful. And at this point, it's certainly at the expense of our public health. Yeah. What do you do about that? Well, I think first people should be mad. You know, again, in a lot of my experience, like talking about this, I often encounter just this kind of reticence of like...

39:24
Oh, well, it's industrialization of food supply. Oh, well, you know, capitalism. What are you going to do? Right. And, and so I think part of part of my, my concern and my interest from that perspective started to become like, well, why is it like this? Like, why, you know, why do we have such a saturated food supply? And what's going on here?

39:53
And so some of my more recent work actually documented a pretty substantial link between ownership of major US food companies in the 80s to early 2000s by the US tobacco companies. Oh yes, interesting. Talk to us. Yeah, yeah. And so they, I was able to review what are publicly available now, but were previously secret.

40:20
industry documents. And then I conducted an analysis of our food supply over time and, and with my team. And basically what we found was that major, leading US tobacco companies from the US, R.J. Reynolds and Philip Morris, who, you know, were instrumental in the tobacco epidemic of the 50s and 60s, they bought into our food supply and just dominated in food sales between the 80s and the early 2000s. They ran our food supply.

40:49
And during that time, they were more likely to produce foods. They were consistently involved with the production of hyperpalatable foods during that time. And that's even when you compare that to similar types of foods that were from parent brands that were not owned by a tobacco parent brand. So what kind of like, what, what, so can you give us a practical example? Yes, I mean, they, they own major companies like Kraft, which has like,

41:19
Kraft cheese, mac and cheese, they own Nabisco, the cookie and cracker company. Yes. Major, major stuff. And so they, yeah. So if you look at, you know, for example, in the data, there were some, you know, there are some foods and crackers that were owned by Nabisco relative to similar types of crackers or cookies.

41:44
from other brands not affiliated with the tobacco companies. And we found a consistent association in those data where the tobacco companies were really involved with disseminating hyperpalatable foods that had elevated like starchy carbohydrates and sodium. So a lot of the crackers and the snacks and things like that, and also hyperpalatable foods that had elevated fat and sodium. So a lot of our meals, they really pushed the frozen entrees. They led that initiative.

42:14
And so it kind of all, you know, it paint that paints a very different lens. Okay. As opposed to just industrialization. Right. So they took tactics to help. They, they took tactics. I've heard people talk about it. Tactics from the tobacco industry playbook is how they've described it, but they just knew how to change the things in the food that then.

42:42
made us want to eat more, to increase the wanting of those foods. Is that? From what our evidence suggests is that they were consistently involved with producing them. We don't have data far back enough to be able to say whether they were the ones who changed the nutrients or whether they just bought companies and were like, they've already got something that we know is kind of has that going on, we'll do more of that type thing.

43:10
But ultimately, the question has been around for decades now, in this tobacco playbook, oh, Big Food seems like they're using strategies from Big Tobacco. And so my question was, well, is it possible that they're actually the same? What do you know? Yes. That's just crazy to me. And is Big Pharma involved at all, Tierra, or we do not know this yet? They seem like a separate entity.

43:40
I have not seen crossover into food yet, but I have not been able to dig very thoroughly. So I would say I don't know overall. But this industry crossover is wild. Yeah. And so our conclusions were basically that like, that it seemed like, you know, the tobacco companies and tobacco owned food companies really, you know, played a major role in kind

44:10
the food, the US food supply toward hyper palatability. Yeah, and I think what that, that is a different lens than like, this just kind of occurred over time as a part of industrialization and processing and things like that. Like it wasn't just an inevitable part of the food history, yeah, and food. Exactly, exactly. I've heard people talk about those, this is a bit of a sidebar actually, on the frozen entrees and how that was also sort of

44:39
woman, you're more important than just spending all your time in the kitchen. Here's some frozen entrees so you no longer have to cook your food and go out and conquer the world." I remember thinking, well, that was quite smart actually. From a marketing perspective, that sort of would have done it. They're masters. They are, unfortunately, the tobacco companies are masters at marketing. They really know how to dig. They really know how to get into the societal...

45:06
issues of the time, like they, there's a lot of that. And so they have a very long history of, you know, marketing, really tailored and aggressive marketing to like, minoritized communities here in the US, black and Hispanic communities, marketing sugary drinks to kids, they are all over it. So yeah, I'm, you know, I bet that was part of it. And it's, you know, it's, they have a pulse.

45:35
And it's unfortunately very effective. And yeah, but that's part of, I think, why, you know, we need to be aware that like this, you know, the origin story of a lot of our food or at least the point, you know, of departure from a lot of, you know, our whole foods has a very notable, you know, point there. Yeah. Do you know the problem, Tierra, I see, is the, is that

46:06
Companies are also very clever with how they distract people from what they're truly doing. Like if I think about Coca-Cola, for example, and they're the ones that are sponsoring children's sport and giving them a sort of player of the day. And basically I can't think of Christmas without Santa driving a Coca-Cola truck, you know, like, and we have all these feel good sort of feelings. And so to go up against companies like that, and like I've mentioned things on my social media in the past.

46:35
about Coca-Cola and about, we've got this cereal here called Wheat Bix, which is, I mean, it's any sort of wheat cereal. It's not hyper palatable in itself, because it doesn't have sugar, but everyone knows you add sugar. So, you know, immediately it becomes hyper palatable. But anyway, you go after, or you even mention something like that, you are crucified in the public sphere. Like I have been absolutely crucified for doing it

47:05
like at a national level. So you're almost tainted with this conspiracy theory brush. It's like people don't want to believe that our government would let food companies do that, or they're only trying to do good for society because they're helping these vulnerable people here or helping make things more available. I think it's such a big issue. It's all part of their playbook. It's all part of it. They want to get people on their side, right? And that's exactly how they do it. If you look in the archives, you can see

47:34
They've got documents from the 60s showing that R.J. Reynolds was like, let's target these specific community based societies, organizations, let's sponsor kids, athletics, let's do all this. And it's all to get that halo to buffer against any, you know, problems that individuals or, you know, governments might bring to the attention of others. So yeah, yeah, it's very, it's a very long.

48:03
held and well developed strategy that they have. Yeah, super interesting. So like, did you get any feedback on that paper when you published it? I've gotten a lot of interesting feedback. So I've actually gotten several kind of versions of reactions as well, which has just been interesting. I think people, we might be kind of at a little bit of a point in the US where people are.

48:32
are a little bit more willing to entertain this idea. And so when I bring, when I talk, when I do, sorry, talks to like the general public, general public audiences, non-scientists, or I just kind of talk with somebody about my work, they immediately are, just say like, that makes so much sense. Like, oh my God, like I can't believe it, but that totally explains my experience with our food. You know? And...

49:00
And so that seems to really resonate. And I've taken some note of that because I was like, if people who know nothing about, and shut up because they have other jobs, they do other things, right? Like not everybody's a scientist. And so when I tell them about my findings and they're not invested, they're not scientists, and they don't have that same frame of reference, but it really resonates with them, that is what for a while has told me, like I'm onto something here, like I'm tapping something that is a very real experience.

49:29
And so that has been kind of with the general public. With the kind of addiction field, the reaction has typically been, you know, first of like, you know, oh my God. And then it's like, oh, but that makes sense. Because we know the history with the tobacco companies. And it's like, well, this is shocking, but it's not surprising. Right?

49:58
And so then I think I've gotten a little more kind of this dissonance reaction, if you will, from folks more, some folks, more in the nutrition obesity space. I don't exactly know how to explain that yet, but yeah, that's kind of where my kind of range of reactions has been so far. Yeah.

50:24
Do you like have you from from specific groups or whatever have you gone and looked at where they get their funding from? I don't know. Like is this what it is? It's because it's so deep, you know, like it's apps like, yeah, there's just food industry influences everywhere in Newt, yeah, and they're very well ingrained with nutrition research. Yeah. And I mean, I don't want to say Tara that that all

50:49
that we need to throw out all nutrition related studies because they're funded by industry. Cause I don't necessarily think that's true. Like I don't, and I would hate to think that that was actually true because they were always buyers. And I actually, like, I don't know. I can't imagine that that is the case, but I mean, it really does make you question what we, I don't know, like the quality of information that's come out because of the, how they pervade all areas of science. I don't know.

51:19
It's a big concern, it's a big issue, and there's a lot to it, but that's why I think in a sense the way I kind of picture it, my perspective is that, well, somebody needs to bring this up. Yeah, and I love it. And whether people want to hear it or not, or are happy that I'm talking about it, that's one thing.

51:49
the, it ultimately it's unfair that we have the food supply that we do. You know, our food and drug administration, the FDA is supposed to have a, you know, like we are supposed to have a food supply that is safe. Um, and doesn't, you know, kill us immediately, which is what you're what the FDA focuses on, which I appreciate, right? Like I love it. Thank you. But.

52:15
If something kills us 30 years down the road from chronic disease that develops from what we're eating now, they're not touching that, or they haven't historically. So, and I don't think that that's fair. That's not fair to our population. We need a food environment that promotes our health. And right now, it's exactly the opposite, and it's absurd. And it shouldn't be this way. It doesn't have to be this way. And I think once people start to...

52:43
to hear that and to learn about some of the origin and the connections and like why we have, what's behind some of these foods that it's probably not an accident, and things like that. That shifts people into a different place instead of just reticence. But I also think the good news is that with knowing the kind of connection with the tobacco industry, there's already a blueprint.

53:13
in place for regulation. We already know what to do with addictive products that US tobacco companies put in our market. They did that once and they got regulated for it with cigarettes. So we have that roadmap. We have all of the strategies that have been used and we can do it again. And I think that we need to strongly start considering that. Have you written a paper yet that

53:41
overlays that blueprint with our current statistics to see what potential impact it could have in 50 years time. Have you done that yet, Tara? I haven't yet. The tobacco stuff is pretty new. It's like a year old. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that would be a great project for a master's student, right? Right, definitely. No, I mean, I think a lot of that is where we kind of need to start moving next. And that's where I am starting to move in terms of, you know, like...

54:07
let's start talking about policy here. What can we learn from the tobacco space? How would this look in the food space? Because food is not the same as tobacco. Like people have to, you know, so yeah, absolutely. That's kind of where I'm heading. That's fascinating. I feel like part of the issue, and this is at a very individual level, like I just think about health practitioners and people like me who work with individuals, but who have a different...

54:34
view on how people should approach food. I have a friend, she's a nutritionist, and she doesn't believe that we need to cut any food groups from, that it just creates a problem and creates disordered eating. I don't agree with her at all because I have seen the impact that consuming different foods has on people and people who say, I'm addicted to this food. I wonder how much of

55:02
that understanding of how food can affect other people that some people are missing. They just don't understand it because they themselves don't have a problem with food addiction per se. I'm not sure. I think that, and what you're saying, I mean, I am aware that there are several kind of fields, really, where the premise is, you know, that also makes me think of the field of eating disorders research, where the premise is very much like there's no, like,

55:29
bad foods, there's no foods that you should totally avoid. And they kind of, there's a lot of reticence to even go there, to even go to talking about, is there a problem with any of the foods? My take is that...

55:45
is that I think it's really important and I think can be very meaningful when people are let in to know what these foods really are. Because the message that any food is the same and any food, like an apple is the same thing as those hot, you know,

56:14
Cheeto Doritos or whatever, you know, to say that message in so many ways with some variation on like, oh, there's more fat or whatever, you know, but like basically to say that like all foods should be addressed similarly and treated similarly and, you know, is really a disservice to people because I think that then they blame themselves. Like, you're like, why did I overeat that? And it's like, it's not your fault. It was designed that way.

56:43
the intent. And so then when people, you know, but without that messaging, people just feel they internalize it. They're like, well, it must be me. I must be the problem. And so what I want people to know is like, you know, there it's kind of like if you take somebody through treatment for a substance use disorder for like alcohol use disorder, but you don't recognize that alcohol is in the is addictive. And you're just saying like, just hold on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you gotta get through it.

57:13
And so I think it's really, it can give people a lot of understanding and explain kind of a lot of their experience. And it doesn't mean that we should recommend that people never eat them or always eat them, like wherever you are on the spectrum. But I think being real and like acknowledging that like these foods are designed differently and here's how, and this is what they can do to your behavior and your neurobiology.

57:41
I think it can say a lot and really remove, you know, some of the probably like the burden that the individual feels and kind of in a way that I hope, you know, would be really useful to them. Oh, yeah, 100%. And I wonder with the, you know, if I think about the history of food production, as you've described it, and also maybe some of the guidelines for helping someone sort of get out of an

58:10
practice. Maybe that's the update that's required as a better understanding. Or maybe some guidelines that have been around forever, maybe they need to have this awareness as well. So they may be able to make better recommendations around stuff like that. Because I think the other thing, Tara, is people often think that it is just chips and chocolate and soft drinks. These are the things we need to be mindful of, not thinking about the hyper palatable.

58:37
food that's been constructed by the food industry like mac and cheese and like frozen entrees and the rest of it. Yeah. Did your eating habits change over the course of your research? Consciously or have you always just eaten in a way that doesn't really include a lot of that food? What's your deal? That's a hilarious question.

59:06
My eating has changed a bit, but I do actually, the main reason that my eating changed was before I started focusing on the food and that's really just credit to my husband. He cooks really good meals that are like a lot of whole nutrients, you know, things like that. So, that's really the kind of major influence on my eating.

59:32
kind of predated my research, but now I do focus on that a little bit more. And since that time, we did have a child as well. And so that also certainly influenced my kind of what we chose to feed her and also kind of the order of exposure and things that we tried to get her to eat early on, which really leaned into the fruits and vegetables and things like that.

59:59
Oh, that's such a good idea. And then actually a question, like my final question, because I want to be mindful of your time. I mentioned about big pharma versus big food and obviously big tobacco. But of course, now we've got a whole sort of emergence of those GLP-1 drugs, which can ultimately change someone's eating behaviors and potentially, and I don't know to what extent that they will.

01:00:28
because of the, I guess, the percentage of people who will actually utilize these drugs. So I remember reading an article that sort of talked about, there's a little bit of not, they weren't scared. Big food wasn't scared of big pharma in this sense, but they were mindful that this can change people's consumption habits. Do you have any thoughts on that space, Tara? My kind, I think my main takeaway

01:00:56
big picture of this is really like, it's another avenue with which we can focus on the individual and not address the issue with the food environment. So instead of changing our food environment to make it better for everybody, we're, you know, like where the field is looking is again at an individual level solution for an environment problem. And that's not to say, you know, like people who want medication for this, like should be able to get it. So I'm not saying

01:01:25
it's a problem that it's there at all. But without the focus on the environment, that's what I think is like just this massive gaping hole in what we can really do to meaningfully make a difference and ultimately people's lives and population health. Yeah, such a good point. Tara, thank you so much for your time this morning. I've really enjoyed our conversation. How can people find out more about your research and sort of hook in with that?

01:01:55
Oh, I have a general university web page for my research lab that you can Google and then I'm also on LinkedIn. Amazing, that's good. Have I seen you on Twitter or are you not so active on... No, no, I'm only on LinkedIn. I don't have the bandwidth for other... No, no, I totally appreciate it. And maybe I found you actually via someone else on Twitter who was maybe a co-author on your papers. And of course, I will put links to...

01:02:23
paper that we were talking about with the tobacco industry and to your LinkedIn page and your university page. Tara, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. Absolutely. Thanks so much for speaking with me.

01:02:50
Alrighty, hopefully you really enjoyed that and I found it fascinating, and particularly the information around how the food industry was all brought up by the tobacco industry. Like that to me is just mind boggling. As I said, I've got links to where you can find Terra, which includes links to some of the studies that we discussed in the show notes. And next week on the podcast, I speak to my friend, Professor Paul Dawson, and around some updates

01:03:20
for athletes, which I think you guys will really enjoy that conversation. And we will also have a link in the show notes to my unlocking metabolic mastery webinar that is taking place January 27th, that's a Wednesday, at 1pm and 7pm New Zealand time that goes through my science backed approach for fat loss and gets you on right track for 2025. It is free, it is being recorded, I would love to see you there. So there is a link in the show notes to that as well.

01:03:50
Until then though, you can catch me over on Instagram, threads and Twitter @mikkiwilliden, Facebook @mikkiwillidennutrition or head to my website mikkiwilliden.com and sign up to that webinar. All right team, you have the best week. See you later.