00:00
Hey everyone, it's Mikki here, you're listening to Mikkipedia and this week on the podcast I speak to Kristi Storoschuk, a passionate researcher, science communicator and PhD candidate at Queen's University. Christy's research focuses on exercise physiology, metabolic health and the fascinating world of nutrient exercise timing. In this episode we dive into topics like mitochondrial biogenesis, fasted versus web training.

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and Christie's broader research interests in improving metabolic health and blood sugar regulation. Christie also shares her insights on the practical applications of her work, touching on how science can inform our day-to-day choices in nutrition and exercise. We also discuss at length why there are certain ideas out there that gain traction and are held as truths, where there's no research to support it. So I think you're really going to enjoy the conversation I have because Christie knows in and out

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the topics that we discuss and where the research sits. So whether you're an athlete, a coach, a longevity enthusiast, or just interested in optimizing your health, I think this conversation is packed with actionable advice and thought-provoking science, and you're really gonna love it. For those of you unfamiliar with Kristy, Kristy Storysiak is a researcher, science communicator, and PhD candidate in the Muscle Physiology Lab at Queen's University in Kingston, Ontario.

01:27
Her academic work focuses on exercise physiology, metabolic health, and nutrient exercise timing, with a particular interest in how these factors influence mitochondrial biogenesis and blood sugar regulation. Kristy's passion for health and nutrition stems from her early experiences working in her family's health food store. This foundation inspired her journey into research, where she bridges cutting edge science with practical strategies to improve metabolic health and promote healthy aging.

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In addition to her academic pursuits, Christy has over three years of experience writing on topics such as ketogenic diets, fasting, and metabolic therapies. She has contributed to platforms like Paleo Magazine, CrossFit, and the Zero Longevity app, and serves on the Scientific Advisory Board at KetoKind. She's also a sought-after speaker and science communicator, known for her ability to make complex topics accessible and engaging.

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And I will put links as to where you can find and follow Kristi over on Instagram in the show notes. Before we crack on into the conversation, I would like to remind you that the best way to support this podcast is to hit the subscribe button on your favorite podcast listening platform. That increases the visibility of Mechapedia and amongst literally thousands of other podcasts out there. So more people get the opportunity to hear from the experts that I have on this show, such as Kristi Storrisha.

02:50
All right, team, enjoy this conversation. Kristy, so great to chat to you today. I'm super excited. You seem like, to be honest, like how old are you? I'm 29. That's crazy young. But everything that I feel like you, I have seen your name in and the stuff that you're interested in and what you're involved in, I feel like you should be at least in your 40s. Not that you look like you're in your 40s.

03:20
Just so you know. I didn't tell you that way, but no, thank you for saying that. I definitely don't feel the same, but yeah, no, you've been on my radar since the beginning, so it's a pleasure to be here and an honor to be speaking with you today. Amazing. And I feel like you actually, like a lot of your both personal interests, your previous sort of work interests, and of course now your study is really based in areas that we just wanna understand more about, and they're sort of coming to the fore

03:49
the more public space on social media and people tend to have a lot of big opinions on things like fasting and mitochondrial health and exercise, obviously, and diet. You've had the privilege of working with real sort of thought leaders in this space. I'm really excited actually to chat about their influence on what you do and also just you yourself and how you live your life really.

04:18
Can we just sort of kick off with your background? Am I right in thinking that you sort of come from a background that was interested in health, like either your parents or grandparents, people like that? Yeah. So my grandparents owned a little health food shop in like a small town. And so I spent my summers living with my grandparents. It was hours away from my house, but I would pack up and go for the summers, work for them. At a very young age, like I was like 13, 14 when I started working there.

04:46
And so I was exposed to the natural health world very young. And we had all types of like walks of life that were customers of this store. And so I was exposed to some. Woo, heelers, but then also some professional, natural product doctors, clinicians, et cetera. Um, and I always knew like, Oh, I'm going to go down the path in this natural health world somewhere. Um, that was, that was my, my plan from the get go. Um, so yeah, so.

05:12
was an early start. Yeah. And your grandparents just curious, were they like, hippie vegans or? No. So they actually bought the store in their sixties. So it was a, it was a late start for them. And then they just bought it and they were like, we're going to be, we're going to learn as much as we can. And thank goodness that they did, because it really changed the trajectory of all of our family, of all of our lives, especially their grandkids.

05:39
Um, cause I'm sure I'll mention somewhere that my sister's also an adopathic doctor. Um, so no, they got into it much later, but they were diehards. And when they were 60, so that was 30 years ago, they're the OG biohackers. Like they slept on grounding mats. They had red lights before it was cool. They had a sauna before it was cool. Like they taught me to ground. Like they were like, go outside in the backyard with your bare feet, get the energy from the ground.

06:08
they had like magnets on all their pipes that they like switched around for their water. I don't know. They just did a lot of things before anyone was talking about it. And I feel super privileged and lucky to have grown up with that because they influenced me a ton. And, and I mean, this isn't a podcast about your grandparents, but I'm not quite curious. Like who sort of, do you have any idea who sort of influenced them and how they thought? Like any of the big names? It was just...

06:34
Oh, yeah, no, they were Merkola fans. Oh, of course. Which I say giggling just because, I mean, I'll refrain from any opinions, but yeah. They're like the classic, like what I read on the internet is truth, 100%. They'll buy into anything. So market to them. They're a target market.

06:59
Oh, cool. And so you mentioned, obviously, just then that your sister is a naturopath. And you yourself were interested in naturopathy, but then sort of moved on. Yeah. I mean, I watched my sister go through naturopathic medicine at the college here in Toronto. And honestly, like it's for her, she loves it. But I witnessed what she did and I was like, that's not for me. And then I decided, I guess, in like third or fourth

07:29
my undergrad, that I wanted to go into research. I wanted to get a PhD. I wanted to get a doctorate. I knew that for sure. And then PhD, I was like, oh, it's free. If anything, you get paid. People always complain about not getting enough money from doing PhD research, and I'm like, it's free school. That's pretty sweet. I'm not going in debt. So that's what really started my whole.

07:57
journey in research is that knowing that I wanted to get a doctorate, I wanted to go down the research route, I had more questions than I had answers. And I was interested in all these like kind of niche health topics. And at the time when I was looking at opportunities, exogenous ketones and the ketogenic diet was just starting to emerge. Dom de Ucino was on Joe Rogan at the time. I listened to that interview and I was like, oh, this is so cool. I'm going to email every single prof and...

08:26
North America that studies ketones and hopefully do a PhD with one of them. And lo and behold, Dom DiGasino hires me into his company because he wasn't accepting new students at the time. I was kind of taking a gap year. So I ended up working for him post undergrad, just working in science communication and eventually getting into the lab and doing some volunteer research work with his lab.

08:55
And then I rode that wave for a really long time, just doing kind of just freelance science communication work. Although I did have a full-time-ish job with Zero, the fasting app Zero. So I was working as their head science writer for a while before they switched to Zero Longevity and before I started my own school. But anyways, I rode that wave and then I just had to give it.

09:22
kick myself in the butt and say, Christy, you were on a journey to go back to school and you put that on pause and now's the time. And so eventually I ended up applying for PhD programs and now I'm here in my fourth year at Queen's University. Amazing. And do you know what? That's such an opportunity, I think, to really, it's so easy to sort of go down one route, particularly when you're young and you're like, right, this is what I wanna do. And you go, if you went straight into your PhD right after graduate school,

09:52
after your sort of undergrad, you might not have really ended up where you eventually will. And of course, research is great because once you get your PhD and you've got publications, it feels like the world can be your oyster in that sense, but you had a lot of experience with other projects and it's just working in them. And obviously with the fasting and the ketones, I feel like you would have been exposed to quite a lot of work.

10:20
a few different methods and ways of doing things and ways of thinking would have been really good actually to have that in your background before you start your PhD. So sounds like a really good way to do it. Totally. Yeah, I wouldn't have, I don't think I would have been researching what I was truly interested in without that experience beforehand. So yeah, it was definitely worth it. And when you went into Dom's lab, like what personally were you doing with regards to diet and just ways of doing things?

10:48
prior to sort of going into Dom's lab and how did that influence, you know, how you lived your life? Like, Like my own personal diet? Yeah, yeah, I'm sort of interested because, you know, like he's so, he's like, he's like the guy in terms of sort of ketogenic diets. I mean, I feel like he's quite balanced. He's actually balanced. He's not like, super zealous at all. But, you know, when you've got a mentor like that, I just wonder how that would have affected what you personally did.

11:17
Yeah, it definitely did. I was very plant-based before, like during my undergrad, highly plant-based, mostly. Almost like I was paleo and vegan at different times in my life. And then I almost went paleo-vegan and all that was left was fruits and vegetables because you can't have grains, you can't have dairy, you can't have meat. I was essentially just eating fruits and vegetables because the paleo world scared me away from all the non-paleo things and then the vegan world scared me away from

11:45
non-vegan things and yeah, essentially all that's left is that. And then starting working with Dom, I was trialing a ketogenic diet. I actually did it pretty long term, like probably almost over a year. Not strictly, but because I was traveling around the world actually at the time. But for the most part, I was very low carb. And then I started...

12:16
flew up and nutrient density and animal foods and the carnivore diet and all those things to kind of started emerging on social media and getting more of a voice and following and that influenced me and I started introducing more meats into my diet and really focusing on nutrient density. So liver, organ meats of all sorts and now that is the basis of my diet. But yeah, definitely starting in the low carb world. I thought low carb was like a like...

12:45
yeah, of course this makes sense. We should all be eating low carb. And that was my, I lived in my little bubble and I still appreciate that for sure. But my bubble has expanded, let's say. But yeah, now I'm to a point where basically whole foods, prioritized protein, nutrient density, and you're probably good. Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like that's sort of where lots of people land after going to extremes, right?

13:12
You almost need to spend time at the extremes to appreciate that the middle ground is probably a better way to be, which is quite different from everything in moderation, which is the popular public health message. But I feel like your approach now is much more moderate from that Whole Foods type.

13:29
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like no, like macro. I don't care necessarily about macro. I probably, honestly, most days are following a ketogenic diet. Yeah, yeah. Because you're focusing on those whole foods, right? Right, right. So I'm restricting carbs, but inadvertently. Yeah, yeah. And, um, Kristy, before, obviously I want to talk to you about your research, but I'm super interested, interested to know where you're at with your training right now, because I either see you up at 4.30 doing CrossFit or

13:58
outrunning a marathon, which, and I do feel like you've actually shifted a little bit in your training habits over the last couple of years from what I've seen on social media. So is your background CrossFit? Is that sort of why you started with the paleo-ish type stuff? Well, yeah, actually, CrossFit is what introduced me to paleo for sure. But no, my background is in volleyball. So I grew up playing club volleyball. I went on a D1 scholarship to the States.

14:28
is not my identity at all anymore. I started CrossFit in high school, just kind of recreationally with my friends. We both joined the gym at the same time and we'd go every morning before school. I remember like borrowing my mom's car before she had to leave for work at 8 a.m. So I started pretty young and I loved CrossFit. CrossFit was just spoke to me. I loved the community. I loved frequent improvement. So with CrossFit, it's like adding

14:56
2.5 pounds to a barbell is like such a win. And you can constantly see improvements. I mean, I'm sure there's other forms of exercise where you can constantly see improvements like that, but that was really fun at the time. And I've continued, so that was more than a decade ago. And I've gone kind of like on and off of like...

15:17
strictly CrossFit. And then within this last year, we had a new member join our lab who's on the triathlon team and we spent a lot of time together. And so I naturally just kind of started running with him and kind of realized that I'm an okay runner. So I kind of leaned into it. But honestly, there's no training. I always say I exercise, I don't train. Which honestly...

15:45
I should maybe say, but I don't follow any structured training. I kind of pride myself on the fact that I wake up in the morning and I'm like, hmm, what am I going to do today? And then I just whatever I want to. The thing that's consistent is that I'm pretty much work out almost every day or I wake up with the intention that I'm going to work out that day. And then I say that life just throws me rest days. I don't plan rest days because life's busy and it'll come like what if

16:14
I plan my rest day when I don't actually have that much to do that day, then I kind of waste it if it comes in at a time where I wasn't expecting it. So anyways, I like the fact that I enjoy my exercise so much that I can just wake up and be like, hmm, what do I feel like doing today? And I know and I appreciate the fact that just doing anything is better than nothing. So I'm not, it doesn't make me anxious.

16:42
or stress not following a training plan. Yeah, you're not like, oh no, I haven't got three of these particular sessions in this week. That actually doesn't matter because you're right. And what you speak to is just habits that have clearly been formed over a lifetime. And I feel like I'm talking to a far more talented, younger version of myself, actually, because what you describe with getting up in the morning, borrowing your mom's car and going to the gym, I did that.

17:11
And it was just what I did, you know, and now I do follow training plans because of the ridiculous ultra runs and stuff that I tend to enter. But I, that whole idea of, the question isn't, am I going to train today? Or am I going to work out today? It's what am I going to do? And I feel like that's the better question to ask. You're not having this mental battle of will I, won't I? Which so many people...

17:40
get caught up in. If you just make the decision that you're an active person, then decision fatigue gone. You're just getting up and you're just doing what you need to do. A hundred percent. I don't feel like working out every day. It's not like exercise is easy for me or yourself as well. People who exercise regularly, it's not like they're like, they really, really want to

18:03
hurt themselves in the gym or hurt themselves on a run or something like that. It's that it's so part of our identity that without it we would kind of feel lost. And I think it does really matter what you do at a young age, at least what I can see from myself and those around me that like without my team sport background or my sport background, like, I'm not sure if I would be into sport and exercise as much as I am now. I can't imagine I would be.

18:33
So I'm a big advocate for young team sports, movement, exercise, et cetera, getting into the gym young. Yeah. Or getting moving young, not necessarily the gym. I totally agree. And I do really kind of despair over what the younger kids, the environment younger kids are sort of growing up in now. Or in fact, it feels to me like there are a couple of different camps. I mean, there's more than just two, but there are the kids that do 18 different sports.

18:58
throughout school and so their parents are running themselves ragged because they're taking debris, single team sport and things. But then there are the kids that just come home and just do nothing and sit in front of screens. The prevalence of people who just actually are quite sedentary, I'm a nutrition, but exercise is the thing that I think is the biggest dial mover with health and that's starting early and remaining active. I feel like even though everyone knows that you should be active.

19:28
whatever reason people aren't, you know, and that's a thing that actually, if anything would keep me up at night, it would probably be the amount of people who do not exercise would be the thing, not how shit people's diets are. I know. And I think about it all the time. I'm like, what do people need to motivate themselves to just buy in? Like, what do they need to buy in? Because I'm bought in. I know exercise is going to reduce my risk of disease. It's going to increase my longevity, reduce my risk of mortality.

19:56
and help me live a longer, more vibrant life. So I'm bought in. That's what motivates me on a daily basis. But do we need to shout it more from the rooftops? I'm not sure. I don't think people appreciate what exercise does outside of body composition and weight loss. If we removed that and just thought of, oh, our bodies just need to move to function properly, if people appreciated that, versus being like, oh, I'm...

20:26
I want to lose weight, so I'm going to start going to the gym. No, it's like, you want to live soon, so you're going to start going to the gym. Yeah, 100%. It's almost like people don't see their future selves. They only see what's in front of them right now. If they're not hurting right now, then why would I bother putting myself through this discomfort if I'm actually feeling fine now? I've got a friend who also talks about it, and he's like, well, yes, even if they are

20:55
at least it's familiar. And so actually people just want to stay with familiar. And so it's trying to get sort of people beyond that. And it's, I mean, it's the question, right? It'll be that million, not million dollar question. I'll probably need to change that to billion dollar question. Because if you can sort that, you'd probably sort a lot with regards to all the things that we care about with health and vibrancy and wellbeing and things like that. Totally. And I don't want to...

21:24
drag this conversation on any longer. But that's another thing about getting people in the comfortable with sport young is that it's less intimidating when you're older to pick it up again. If you're comfortable lifting a dumbbell or barbell or running or being active, then if you're familiar with that, then it's just less intimidating. Cause I see like my parents, other people's parents, it's like, they're not gonna start going to the gym in their 50s, 60s. Like it takes a lot for them to feel comfortable.

21:52
to do something like that. And with you, Kristy, have you moved to the High Rocks competitions yet? Have you got, are you there? No, no I haven't. I'm so scared of those sleds. I was at the CrossFit Games and I was sitting beside the CrossFit, or the High Rocks World Championship, the girl who won in France last year. And I was like, okay.

22:18
Be honest, how hard are those slides? Because I want to consider competing. And she essentially was just like, it depends where you are, the humidity, what the turf is like, et cetera. So it kind of changes where you compete. But no, I think I need to increase my strength. And be faster. They're running sub 4 kilometers.

22:40
in between all of those. Oh, you could totally do that. Oh, I don't think you've got any worries of that at all. Maybe, I don't know about your strength because I only see what I see on the internet, but I absolutely no doubt you'd be fine on the running and the endurance stuff. Well, maybe one day I'll compete. It's definitely on the radar. 29, you've got years and years and years ahead of you to think about this. So Christy, can you give me a little rundown on what you're actually working on right now? Tell us about your PhD, because this is what I really wanna

23:09
to you about, and I will preface this by saying that I did a mini-MICAPedia and I was talking about mitochondria and I had said, what did I say? Something like zone two increases mitochondrial biogenesis. And you messaged me afterwards and said, hey, awesome, I'm studying this. I don't think that happens. Send me the paper to show me that that's the case, which I loved actually, because that's what I say to people as well. When you hear them that they're wrong, like you called me out, but not in a mean way, you were just like, hey,

23:38
If there is a paper, let me know because I'm studying this and I have not found it." Which just, well, one, it made me, like everyone falls prone to this, right? You hear a couple of people say it who you really value and respect, and you just assume that they are right. So you just parrot it back. I see this in social media all of the time with lots of things that people say. But your research is sort of looking at areas about mitochondria, isn't it?

24:08
in that whole area. Yeah, so just to be fair, I am so guilty of doing that as well. So it's so natural. Yeah, totally. I appreciate it. It's good because you don't want to go around spouting misinformation. Like you want to try and be as accurate as possible. For what it's worth, I then have called myself out the next week by saying, I was called out last week on this and that's what I said was not actually the case. So.

24:33
I did stand correct. That's awesome. But no, it wasn't calling you out. It was a genuine question because I was on the hunt because this message is perpetuated on social media that low intensity exercise is increasing mitochondria and improving mitochondrial content. And I'm like, where are these training studies? I have searched high and low and I can't find them. So it's kind of a crazy psychological experiment with the zone two topic that...

25:03
Like, how many times can we repeat it to the point that people believe it's truth without any evidence? It's very interesting. But no, just to kind of bring us back to what I'm saying. So yes, I'm in an exercise physiology lab, muscle physiology specifically. Our lab studies the regulation of mitochondrial biogenesis. And this was super intriguing for me coming into this lab and why I chose this lab in the first place was coming from the ketogenic world. Because mitochondria are a...

25:32
pretty big topic within the ketogenic world, with its relevance to both type two diabetes, insulin resistance, but also neuronal stuff and mitochondria are often talked about. So I started my PhD, I had many conversations with my PhD supervisor on what I wanna study, what I'm interested in. Zone two was definitely one of the first topics I brought up, but fasting was another one. And I was always under the impression that fasting is a metabolic stress.

26:01
metabolic stress is this upstream signal for all these adaptive responses within our cells to make us more resilient, increase these longevity genes, and increase pathways that essentially lead to greater mitochondrial health and mitochondrial biogenesis. And so I brought this forth to my supervisor and I was like, I want to do a prolonged fasting study. Let's look at how our mitochondria adapt and respond to fasting in skeletal muscle because

26:31
Skeletal muscle is our biggest metabolic organ. If we're improving mitochondrial function, mitochondrial capacity in our skeletal muscle, then we would expect that to improve our metabolic health because mitochondria are the epicenter of our energy metabolism. It's where we turn our fuels into usable energy for just daily living, exercise, et cetera. But skeletal muscle specifically is responsible for basically our whole body metabolism.

27:01
And so if fasting, based on what I've heard on social media, what I've read in journals and a lot of these review articles that say that fasting, caloric restriction activates these energy stress pathways, which we would expect increased mitochondrial biogenesis. So that was my first impression of fasting. That's what I brought forth. And my supervisor kind of questioned me. He was like, we've run a short-term fasting study.

27:29
and we saw nothing. And we've actually run a 48 hour fasting study, also found nothing, because he wanted to use fasting based on animal literature as just a model to study these pathways. So not even thinking of fasting as an intervention in any shape or form, he just wanted to see like, oh, can this be a way that we can study these proteins and figure out the pathway and the

27:59
And so that kind of threw a wrench in what I just thought was common knowledge that fasting isn't metabolic stress. And so I was like, hey, well then what's going on in human skeletal muscle? So we conducted a systematic review where I essentially did a search to find all the studies that have been conducted in both humans, not both humans, mice, and rats.

28:26
And we looked at prolonged fasting anything longer than six hours. Six hours we chose just because the post-perennial period is around six hours. And so anything longer than that, we could consider a fast. Although no one would necessarily say like seven hours of fasting or seven hours of not eating is fasting, but anyways, they're not, no one's really studying that in humans anyways, that was more rodent stuff. Um, and the conclusion from what we found, we looked specifically.

28:54
I guess I should take a step back as well. We looked at a specific pathway that should be activated if our cells are under energetic stress and that's the impetus for that. The signal for that is the activation of something called AMPK, AMP kinase. And so if anyone's familiar with any of this longevity stuff, then an upregulation of AMPK is a good thing because that's the upstream kinase for different pathways.

29:24
terms of mitochondrial biogenesis, it's the upstream kinase for a protein called PGC1 alpha, which is often referred to as the master regulator of mitochondrial biogenesis. So if we get the activation of this pathway in the AMPK PGC1 alpha axis, we would expect, although this is kind of like I'm oversimplifying because there's so much nuance with this pathway, and PGC1 alpha regulation doesn't necessarily mean

29:53
we're growing our mitochondria, but that's definitely a discussion for someone else and also another time. But it is an important pathway and still highly studied right now for mitochondrial adaptations. And so with what we found, we found that in rodents, there is enough regulation of this pathway in skeletal muscle. Although our results showed that it was...

30:20
way more inconsistent than what is commonly communicated within the literature. So it's not always the case that a fast is going to increase this pathway. But in humans, we found essentially no evidence that it's occurring. So the studies that were included were up to 48 hours. So not eating for two days was not an energetic stress signal for our skeletal muscle. And there's other studies that didn't meet my inclusion criteria.

30:50
criteria, but up to 72 hours where those energetic stress signals are also not changing. So three days of not eating versus six hours in a mouse or a rat will cause the regulation of these. Yeah. So I've got a few questions. So first of all, when I'm thinking about human trials versus the rodent or mouse studies, you mentioned six hours. Is that like, I've often heard that that is like worth three times the amount in a human in terms of a tie. I don't know if you can like

31:20
multiply it as cleanly as that. But six hours is a long time for a mouse compared to six hours for a human. Is that one of the reasons why you sort of look at six at the different? Yeah. So you wouldn't expect that in humans after six hours, but after 48 hours, that's an equivalent timeframe? I'm not actually sure the equivalence. I remember did like a calculation and I feel like I did add it to our publication, but I can't

31:48
Remember, oh, well, other than so, I mean, just looking at the publication right now and mice mice lose 5% of their body weight in just six hours of fasting, which is an over 10% in 24 hours. So 24 hours of fasting for a mouse, they lose 10 over 10% of their body weight, whereas humans lose around 1.4% in 24 hours. So that's a massive difference. That's like 10 times the difference. Just like they're 10 times.

32:18
Um, so yeah, so, but we chose six hours just because of the post-prandial period, not because of what was, um, documented in rodents. You're thinking, and cause I understand, I, um, talk about AMPK, not often and not a lot, but with regards to up regulating fat metabolism and athletes. And so if you train what research shows in athletes is if you train them, um, in the absence of glucose, they can still take on like protein and fat.

32:47
But if they do the, I don't know what kind of, I believe it's steady state training probably for about an hour, then they're going to increase that AMPK activation. But it's working in a similar way, similar to what you're talking about, right? It's like, even though we're increasing fat metabolism, but it's also working at that mitochondrial level in that athlete example as well, right? So fasted exercise is different than just fasting.

33:17
And so I think that there's a lot to really untangle with the fasted exercise literature because there are some studies that show no difference in AMPK, but then there are studies that show an increase in AMPK, which we would want if we're trying to adapt to our exercise about then maybe, yeah, lowering carbohydrate availability before exercise gives that greater metabolic response or metabolic stress response.

33:46
signal for this adaptive response that we're looking for as an athlete or just anyone because the adaptations that are promoting performance also promote health. So they're applicable to anybody. But yeah, sorry, I don't even know what your question was. Oh, and so I'm wondering whether it's acting in the same way. Like if you're, so does, I guess my question is, would exercise accelerate that AMPK?

34:14
pathway, even if you've got food on board. So you used fasting as the stress, but if you've got food that isn't glucose and you exercise, are we doing the same thing with our mitochondria? So does lowering glucose availability before exercise? Yeah. Yeah. So they might still have some food, so they're not fasting, but is that still acting in the same way as, for example, the post-prandial fast or the...

34:42
the fasting that you were looking at? So, yeah, so my stuff was all at rest. And so when we add exercise on top of a fast, so whether that's an overnight fast or even like within a day, post-pray, like if you ate breakfast and then you didn't eat all day and then it worked out eight hours later, it is a different metabolic state that we're gonna be exercising in.

35:09
and glucose will respond differently. Liver glycogen content will be different. Muscle glycogen won't be different. So even when you wake up in the morning, whether you eat or you don't eat and you go and exercise, your muscle glycogen is going to be the same. It's liver glycogen that's gonna be different. Blood glucose might be different because if you eat carbohydrates, you're gonna have elevation. So we can kind of also, what you're getting at, I think is that we can also just put

35:39
low carb or protein only or fat only within that group of fasting. So just carbohydrate availability if we're different. Then there are some studies that do show that you're getting more of an adaptive response within skeletal muscle when we reduce carbohydrate availability prior to exercise. But there's also contra, there's other counter studies that show no effect.

36:08
I mean, I'm hoping to contribute to this research because I just wrapped up a FASTA versus FED exercise trial in using high intensity exercise, which most of the study does use steady state. And that's kind of promoted like, oh, if you're gonna go out and do your low intensity, like don't eat before, just ride it out, increase fat oxidation, because we know that being in the FASTA state or low carbohydrate availability state, we're gonna have higher rates of fat oxidation during that bout of exercise.

36:37
And that's often thought that that's linked to greater adaptations, which I still am like kind of confused about mechanistically because like, yeah, we're a very molecular lab and I want to know why like, why would why would burning a different fuel lead to a different adaptation despite doing the same amount of work that to me is like, a very odd question or an odd like.

37:06
What would be going on? Yeah. Is it to do with the increase in ketone production and ketones act as a signaling molecule? And you wouldn't get that if you had you in the higher glucose state. Yeah, that can be. So if your bout of exercise is promoting ketosis, there's a chance that you're getting some signaling from the ketones themselves. If they're entering skeletal muscle and being exposed to your muscle cells.

37:35
That's definitely a possibility. I think there's only like one study looking at ketones and mitochondrial stuff out of Jeff Olick's lab. Then Miller, I think, who did all that research. And so yeah, I mean, there could be a chance there. There's also different hypotheses around fatty acids being ligands for certain enzymes, proteins. So because another thing is that

38:05
It used to be thought that like, oh, if you're increasing carbohydrates, or you're eating carbohydrates, you're sparing muscle glycogen. But it doesn't look like we're actually using different amounts of glycogen, whether we're in the fed or fasted state. So it must not be tied to muscle glycogen unless there's fiber type differences. I don't know. It's definitely a very interesting...

38:30
topic and it's being applied though. So we need to understand it. Athletes are definitely using fast exercise thinking this is going to be like train low and then compete high type thing. But I'm not sure what I think. I'm definitely on the side of I think that there's enough evidence to make hypotheses around fasted training. But whether it's a strong enough

38:58
reason to adopt that. Especially if it's someone like, Oh, I feel like crap during my fasted workouts, but I'm going to do it anyways, because I heard it's good for me like that. Versus someone who's like, Oh, I love my fasted workout. So I'm just going to do it. Whether like what percentage benefit you're getting. I'm not confident in but I'm curious enough. I'm convinced enough.

39:23
Well, obviously I was convinced enough to design a whole study and dedicate a year of my life collecting a ticket for that there could be something different going on. But I don't think it's like nail in coffin. You need to train low because there's an amazing there's amazing athletes out there that definitely don't train low and are still performing really well. So, so, Christy, I've got another couple of questions just on the mitochondrial.

39:50
the rested, fasted stuff, your review that you did. And then I wanna get back to this conversation. But you mentioned that you're looking at skeletal muscle AMPK activation. Is it people who think differently, are they looking at AMPK in other tissue? Is that why there's this sort of different interpretations? Why is it that everyone thinks that

40:20
It's just a no-infect quotations used that fasting increases mitochondria where actually this is not what the research says. That's an excellent question because even before this, I had no appreciation for tissue specificity. So perhaps in the liver where energy would be depleted. So even to get back to what's the difference between humans and rodents and why would they respond differently to fasting? So

40:44
Metabolic grade is a huge one, so they're losing a ton amount of weight in such a little amount of time. They're also reducing their muscle glycogen, which humans don't. Up to 72 hours of fasting, there's no decrease in muscle glycogen, which means that there's no energetic stress because the degradation of muscle glycogen is regulated by that energetic stress signals as well. We need to essentially demand more from our muscle.

41:12
like energy demand, in order for us to send the signal that we need to start depleting muscle glycogen. And fasting does not seem to be doing that, at least up to 72 hours. I'm sure there's longer studies that have looked at it as well, but not for the sake of this review. And then also something that's not in the review, but I wish I added to the discussion, is that rodents tend to move more when they're fasting. So during their fasted hours, I

41:39
it's probably an evolutionary thing where they're trying to scavenge, look for food, et cetera. So they actually increase just their voluntary movement. Whereas humans, during fasted hours, we reduce our movement, our just non-voluntary or our voluntary movements actually start to reduce. So maybe we're seeing a response in rodents because they're actually exercising, like they're increasing physical activity.

42:06
And then we're taking in their muscle and they're like, oh, fasting caused this versus a human who doesn't need anything. We're actually reducing our energy demands. The capacity of our mitochondria at rest is well in excess of what we need, what we're demanding from our body. If anything, we're reducing our energy demand by fasting. And the stimulus to tell our mitochondria to grow and be better, bigger, stronger is to increase energy demand.

42:36
not just reduce energy input. So that's a big difference. That's probably why we're seeing these discrepancies. But then back to your tissue specificity, like, yeah, in these reviews, people will just cite like, prolonged fasting increases AMPK period. And then, and not talk about, okay, well, was it in the liver? Was it in the brain? Was it in muscle? What tissue are we talking about? Because we're going to see a different response. And then...

43:05
And then these reviews kind of that are promoting fasting for metabolic health will create these beautiful diagrams like, and then just link fasting down to AMPK, down to PgC and down to mitochondrial biogenesis. And then the reader just looks at the diagram and they're like, okay, well, fasting does this. And we know in muscle if we increase that, then that's good. So I think there's just like leaps in logic and a little bit of just assumptions that are made.

43:34
And that's, but that's leading to different clinical recommendations, which I think is very important. And it also takes away from the, what we know, uh, exercise can do. And if we're using fasting as a replacement for exercise, I think that that could be a potentially damaging or dangerous message, um, because if, if we're opting for not eating or having to go for a run, people might opt for the fast. Uh, I, I think so. I just, the number of people who, who.

44:03
would prefer like to, I mean, everyone's in different camp, but obviously in the work that I do and helping people with fat loss, diet is always almost the easier thing to implement than it is to do the training. Now you said something, and this is a question I did have for you, because I've heard you say this before as well, is that exercise and fasting are both a stress, a metabolic stress. But in one case, in one scenario...

44:31
you're actually doing something so you're expending energy. Whereas in the other one, you're just taking away from the energy intake. So you're, so, and so they can have quite different effects, like, like all the adaptation can be different. Can you sort of expand a little bit on that? Because it's sort of basically you talking a little bit more about why exercise isn't the same as fasting, even though people will sort of compare them like they are. Right. And...

44:58
So this comes back to kind of what I briefly mentioned about how our mitochondria respond. So in order to send the message to our mitochondria that we need more of you, we need you to be functioning better, we need to exceed our capacity. So we need to increase the demand for ATP because mitochondria produce ATP for ourselves. And we can only do that by increasing energy demand. So when we reduce energy,

45:27
input. So if we're fasting or restricting calories, that's never telling our mitochondria that we need to increase how much ATP we're producing. So the only physiological circumstance that I can think of that would do that is movement, muscle contraction. And so exercise is essentially the only way we can increase our mitochondria in our skeletal muscle.

45:57
send those signals that we need more of you, we need you to be functioning better. So I mean, I'm under the impression that exercise is the only way to activate mitochondrial biogenesis. What about cold plunge? Yeah, that's true too, actually. I don't know enough about cold exposure to heat. Because that's how PGC went off, it was initially discovered. It was called a cold-inducible protein. So like the first paper, I think that documented it.

46:25
And it also was also referred to as a fasting-inducible protein. So I might have to connect to systematogram on cold exposure now. But yeah, no, I'm not actually sure. Yeah. I'm not sure. Yeah. But it could be possible. But that, you know what, that makes so much sense, doesn't it? Like logically, like the adaptive process, the demand on the mitochondria is obviously occurring with exercise. And it's just not the same when you just donate. Like.

46:55
And the body's actually trying to pull things in and conserve a little bit. And I think when I heard, because I heard you say that on another podcast, cannot remember which one. And that was the first time someone had very clearly spelled out the difference between them in a way that I really understood. I'm like, okay, well, you almost don't even need to explain any more than that. Because I think that in itself is just such a, like people can wrap their heads around that. Whereas.

47:20
And ultimately, I mean, I guess you're a science communicator, so you're very good at communicating the science, but that's language that people can understand. Are you right? You know, I don't actually have to do anything that does not eat. It's so different from the effort of exercise. Right, right. Well, yeah, especially when you understand that like we have enough energy on board to live while fasting. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I do want to mention though, like,

47:47
Because fasting is an amazing tool for metabolic health. And I still, I don't want my take home message to be devaluing the use of fasting. Maybe prolonged fasting, I've definitely shied away from in terms of the therapeutic benefits for just average people. I'm not talking about clinical populations because I think that there could be use case scenarios that I'm just not in the field of. But for someone who's just...

48:15
I don't know, people like you and I who are interested in improving our health at any kind of cost. And so I don't want it to be devaluing the use of fasting as a tool, but because I do think it can be an amazing, amazing strategy for restricting calories, reducing the amount of time you eat in a day, intermittent fasting, time-restricting eating, I think is great. I think that there's some real good reasons to do it around our circadian rhythms, et cetera.

48:43
So I did want to put that out there too. Although I do think differently about prolonged fasting now that I appreciate muscle tissue so much that we don't want to lose muscle tissue. So prolonged fasting is definitely not eating. It's definitely not a good signal for muscle growth. Yeah. That's super interesting. And then Christy, can you tell us anything about the study that you just wrapped up or is it like too early to give us any information, but I'm super

49:12
chat a little bit about that because that's an area which I'm interested in as well, obviously, because I work with all athletes. I'm an athlete myself. So yeah, tell us about it. Unfortunately, I can't share too much because it's not published and I literally analyzed it this morning. But I'm excited to publish it. So there's that. Tell us the protocol actually. And then yeah. So actually, this was kind of born out of the

49:39
ketogenic research as well. So if anyone's familiar with the ketogenic exercise world, there's a five day protocol that's kind of repurposed throughout a few studies by Louise Burke and her lab. And so they do a five day ketogenic protocol show that you can become fat adapted in five days. And then afterwards, even reintroducing carbs, you still have

50:05
higher elevations of fat oxidation during exercise. And so it's kind of suggesting that there's this adaptation that makes us better fat burners by exercising in a low carbohydrate availability state. But with the ketogenic stuff, there's also a paper that you're probably familiar with, and it has all the train low strategies within it. I think it might be fuel for the work required. Yeah, it is, I think. And...

50:33
within the train low strategies, it's like ketogenic diet, fasted training to a day. And there might be another one that I can't- Sleep low. Sleep low in the train or then workout fast in the morning. And those are all different. So especially fasted training. So I don't think even fasted training should be lumped in that, I guess it is a strategy for train low, but it's so different from the ketogenic diet that-

51:00
ketogenic diet plus exercise, you're going to be reducing muscle glycogen. By day five, they're not restoring much muscle glycogen. They're probably in a very low glycogen state every time they're exercising versus fasting. You're just in a low liver glycogen state, low insulin state, low glucose state when you're starting exercise. So it's a very different state than low everything plus low muscle glycogen. And I think that that would result in very different adaptations potentially. Actually, I don't know if I think that.

51:30
potentially. Was that a question? Was that one of the things you were interested in knowing? Is it actually different? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I would love to have compared fasted versus ketogenic, but I took that five-day protocol and I was like, okay, well, if you can become fat adapted within five days using a ketogenic diet, can you become fat adapted using fasted training? So I did a five-day fasted training study where individuals, we did pre-testing.

51:59
Then they came into the lab for training, which would start on a Monday. They got a beverage when they walked in the door. It either had carbohydrates in it or it didn't. So the placebo would have been our fasted group and then carbohydrate group. I was blinded to the intervention. I actually don't know which anyone got. And they did HIIT. So I use HIIT specifically because most of our... I was pulling in pieces from all different research worlds. So within the fast, it exercised the world.

52:26
Everything is just steady state, moderate exercise for the most part. There's some sprint interval training studies. Um, there's a HIIT study. Um, but it's, it's mostly our understanding of fast exercise is mostly based on just steady state, moderate exercise. So I wanted to use HIIT because when we're at high intensities, the difference in fuel substrate utilization actually isn't different when we're carbohydrate fed or if we're fasted because we're, we're relying so much on our intramuscular stores.

52:54
the demand for energy is so high during kind of density exercise that we're not pulling much from our outer post tissue, our blood glucose is supplying stuff, but it's supplying glucose, but we're mostly burning muscle glycogen and using those intramuscular stores regardless of nutritional state. And so I liked that idea because it took away that difference in fuel substrate utilization that might have explained differences in past studies.

53:21
But if I see an effect, then it would be unrelated to the fuels that were burning during exercise because we would expect them to be the same. So I did a five-day protocol, FASTED, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, they came in every day, did their hit in the FASTED state or the Fed state, and then took the weekend off, came in for post-testing. So that was the design of the Sunny. It took a whole year of data collection. It was super fun. I'm actually sad it's over. It was awesome.

53:49
We did muscle biopsies, so we have pre-post biopsies, we have day five biopsies, we have blood draws, we have our primary outcomes lactate threshold. And the reason we're looking at lactate and lactate threshold was that if you're improving your fat-oxave capacity, you should be improving your lactate threshold. So...

54:11
Fat oxidative capacity is a determinant of lactate threshold. So that was the kind of this functional outcome I could use in the lab instead of looking at substrate metabolism. And yeah, we had mostly females. I tried to get it one-to-one male to female, but we had more females than males. And my females were functioning fine.

54:40
coming in each morning. And I'm sure many of them were in the past group. So that was one thing that like I feel like my whole PhD is kind of just like taking claims from social media and then studying them. Yeah, which is actually perfect. Right? Yeah, I think that's great. So it'll be interesting to analyze. So I mean, I haven't looked at any of the muscle stuff, I've just essentially just created a table of all my data and then started some stats.

55:10
But yeah, that's the protocol. I'm excited to look at the muscle. So once I start, once I get into the wet lab and spend months in there, I'll be able to hopefully identify some mechanisms to explain if we're seeing any differences and whether that would explain anything. So yeah, that's a risk to hit. Yeah, awesome. And when can we expect a publication from that? Honestly, soon. I think we're going to be trying to take whatever data we have right now.

55:39
especially with my primary outcome, and then maybe do some secondary papers to follow. So hopefully soon, hopefully within, I don't know, half a year. Yeah, oh, brilliant. And because you also recently submitted a paper on zone two training, didn't you? Can you tell us anything about that? Yes, oh another. But tell us, tell us what was your question actually, because I know that it is likely to be published very soon, but so what can we expect? What was the question you were asking?

56:07
Yeah, so my interest in zone two obviously started through social media, through listening to podcasts and hearing that zone two was the best thing that we can do for our metabolic health and that we absolutely need it and it's going to increase our mitochondrial content and our function of our mitochondria and we need that to be insulin sensitive, et cetera, et cetera. But I really like high-intensity exercise. I don't do steady state low intensity. Even my runs, I'm like, I'm going to just run fast and try and...

56:34
hold that. Yeah, run for as long as I can. 85% beer to max. Yeah. Literally. I don't really have a long gear. And so to me, I was like, Oh, do I have to do this zone two stuff? Like I want healthy mitochondria. I want to live a long and healthy life. And I was just not convinced that I needed to do zone two. I was like, why would I be doing? Why would I be sacrificing my high intensity work for days for zone two days when I know that

57:03
So much of the research shows that high-endensity exercise is a potent signal for increasing the regulators of mitochondrial biogenesis. So there was just this mismatch in the literature from what we learn in exercise science and what we know is causes. These are upstream of the adaptive responses and then what zone 2 does. So zone 2 is...

57:27
low intensity work. It's sub lactate threshold one. So lactate threshold is around two millimolar of lactate. What's promoted on social media is to stay just below that. So around 1.7, you'd want your lactate at and just to stay there for at least, I don't know, 45 to 60 minutes or something like that. Watch something. Watch like something on Netflix whilst you're riding. That's the zone two thing. Yeah. Right. Right. But...

57:56
all of the HIIT literature would suggest that we want to be going hard. We want to be pushing ourselves to get that energetic stress signal, which is the upstream signal for our muscles to adapt in a way that would promote endurance adaptations, mitochondrial biogenesis being one of those. And so my supervisor and I talked a ton about zone two being like, why is it being promoted so much? And...

58:23
like this is not lining up with what we understand about exercise physiology. So we were like, okay, let's just write a review. And so yeah, that was in the works. Oh, honestly, it was like, oh, let's go scour the literature first being like, does it increase mitochondrial biogenesis? So we spent, honestly, a lab mate and I spent months just looking up. And that was why I reached out to you because I was a genuine question like, hey, like...

58:51
You're smart. You said this. Do you have a paper? Because I'm really looking. And yeah, so I mean, I guess people can understand my opinion by now that I've been unable to find any strong evidence that low intensity exercise is promoting adaptations. And also that like high intensity isn't. Like why would we...

59:19
deliberately stay in an intensity of exercise when we know going above that is most likely going to promote mitochondrial biogenesis and improve all these adaptive responses. And it's interesting because even in our department, we have a really amazing lab, world renowned.

59:41
Bob Ross runs this lab and he's an obesity researcher and they did a trial where they took non-responders, people who didn't increase their VO2 max in response to MIXT. If I'm getting this study correct, I haven't looked at it in a long time. And then put them on high intensity protocols and then they all responded. And so high intensity exercise almost takes away those non-responders because most people will just respond to high intensity exercise. And if we're improving our VO2 max...

01:00:09
most likely improving our mitochondrial function because that's a determinant of mine. I mean, of course there's other central regulators of our VO2 max, if not, those are the most important, but our ability to utilize oxygen within our muscle is also a big determinant of our VO2 max, especially for just like regular general public people. Those things are going to be probably increasing together. Yeah.

01:00:33
And it's not like you're against zone two training. It's not like you're like, no one should do zone two training. You're just saying it doesn't have the same potential benefit if we're thinking solely about mitochondria that HIT has. Yeah, I think people are just using it, thinking it's doing something that it's not. And I think that's the bad message. I don't think zone two is harmful in any way. I do think it's harmful.

01:01:00
I do potentially think though it's harmful if you are giving up higher intensities in order to stick in zone two because you could be sacrificing greater adaptations by staying in a higher intensity. It's always convoluted because athlete populations are so different from regular population people. So if you're training 20 to 30 hours a week.

01:01:26
maybe you need zone two in order to increase your training volume that much. But someone who's working out an hour a day, like I always say, I always joke, like, I don't deserve zone two. Like I straight up, I don't do enough exercise to deserve that low intensity because I would prioritize all that, all the high intensity that I do. And then maybe if I wanted to increase training volume, I would consider, but even then I'm like, well, I don't know. I just would rather not exercise.

01:01:55
Like it's zone two is increasing energy expenditure and increasing flux and it might be doing something like, of course, increasing energy expenditure is good and increasing like the mobilization of fuels within our body is also linked to health as well. So I don't think it's bad, but I don't think from a training perspective that it is causing an adaptive response. Yeah. And and to your point, like the shorter amount of time that you

01:02:25
have to devote to exercise, the harder you probably need to go. And of course, as we age, we can't go hard all of the time. So if you're mixing it up and having that, so purely just from a lifestyle health, I just want to be fit and healthy, you've got to do that high intensity stuff in addition, which is relevant, which is relative. It's not like Christie's high intensity is going to be the same as mine because just different ages, different stages, et cetera.

01:02:54
I mean, everyone can still do higher intensity based on their sort of starting point. Totally. And should, by what you're saying. Because even like zone three, just going above that, there's like, what's wrong with zone three? Yeah. Oh, that's gray zone. That's gray zone, Kristy. We should never train. No, it's not true. But actually to your point as well, I feel like with, because I think Stacey came out saying women shouldn't do zone two. Which is, which.

01:03:22
isn't what you're saying, but for an entirely different and to my mind, not a, I don't think that's a good recommendation and it isn't even really backed up in the science anyway. Women can do zone two. And if you're an athlete, of course you do zone two because it's part of your training program, particularly your endurance training. Yeah. I'm also convinced that women can also do faster training. Or I'm not convinced that women can't do faster training. Oh yeah.

01:03:53
literally decades and decades of fasted training has been, you know, I've done it, all my friends have done it, like almost every female I know has done it. So yeah, no, I tend to agree. And the thing is, is that if you're unsure, then just try it or try eating before you exercise. And how does that make you feel? It's all actually about that and that personal individual sort of experience, right? The benefits of exercise, I'm pretty sure are just doing the exercise. Yeah, I like it.

01:04:21
So putting like adding that extra percent on top from some sort of nutritional strategy, I do think matters. I do. However, I don't think it's worth it for like quality of life or, I don't know, anything else. But yeah, the women not being able to hit either or hit. Yeah, I don't know. There's a lot of, I think it's just not very empowering for women to hear that.

01:04:50
that we shouldn't be doing hard work. Yeah, yeah, I agree. And someone else I know describes it as an anti-fragile, you know, like, it's a fragility message, actually. And we need to sort of move away from that, you know, women are anti-fragile, for sure. Right, I like that. So Christy, when are you wrapping up your entire, so you're in fourth year, have you got a year to go? Yeah, I hope to be done in a year. So I actually started in the master's program and then flipped into the PhD program, so.

01:05:19
I don't know, that first year was a bit of a wishwash, washy. So I hope I'm done in a year. I have another trial starting in the new year, so in a few weeks. I'll hit the ground with that and that one will be super fun. I'm very pumped for that. That's in collaboration with Tommy Wood and Amy Galvin. So we're running a trial together and yeah, stay tuned for that. Are you going to tell us anything about it or we just have to stay tuned?

01:05:49
So I'm validating a model of muscle quality, a blood-based model of muscle quality in just a real world population of people across the spectrum of young, old, lean, obese. So hopefully where you have a spectrum of metabolic health and we'll be doing a bunch of both functional and molecular markers of muscle quality and then correlating that with a signature, a blood-based signature.

01:06:18
Oh, amazing. And also mitochondrial outcomes and people zone too, their lactate threshold. And yeah, so I'm excited about that. Ah, that sounds great. So that's interesting because I often think about muscle quality as well and hear people talk about it because of course you always hear that people who just have bigger bodies and they may also carry excess body fat will naturally have more muscle mass as well. But to the extent to with which that's healthy, that's a question that hasn't really been answered.

01:06:48
Right. Yeah, that was actually an interesting finding from our last publication with also Tommy and Andy, where people muscle, cognitive function wasn't associated with muscle mass, because in a in just a population, US population and Haynes, because those with greater muscle mass were tended to be just overweight. So their whole body was higher. And so the hypothesis is that just that

01:07:14
you're overweight, so you have one less mass and that's why it's not associated with cognitive function. However, when we put in physical activity and strength, that's where we see it correlating better with these health outcomes because that's more of a functional outcome. Yeah, amazing, Chrissy. You are doing such interesting research and it is complex, and I only understand about half of it.

01:07:40
But I get the message and I get the outcome. Because you are very good at communicating the outcomes then, and you also do, even though you sort of go into social media and you go out when you're obviously super busy, but I feel like you're in this really great position because you're doing the research, but you also have an audience to start talking to as well about this. Just get people clear on where the benefits lie, and what they do, what they can and can't do. I think that's really important.

01:08:10
I don't know, not making up stuff, but just, you know, like your opinions are based on the research as you understand it and you're willing to change your mind. I think that's really important. I appreciate the words. I think you think I'm a lot special or more smart than I am. Because don't worry, I'm still confused about everything. That's kind of why I am very silent from the most part on social media these days and these past years is.

01:08:38
I started in science communication and then as soon as I started my PhD, I just was like, okay, I don't know what I know. I think I know nothing. And I'm almost four years in and I still think I know nothing. But I hope that I'm coming out of the woods slowly but surely. But really, it was just about, I don't want to have to force a message and I wasn't producing any research.

01:09:06
And I really wanted to hone in on that. I wanted to just do good science and then the communication will come after. I didn't wanna have to like force myself to create messages that I didn't even, wasn't even confident or weren't my own. Or so I really took these last few years to focus on just doing good science. Cause I mean, that's what I'm here to do. And then I hope to jump back into the, into the social media sphere eventually. But yeah.

01:09:35
No, thank you so much for your words and for having me. And yeah, you definitely talk me up way too much guys. Don't believe Mickey. I'm just really lucky. I'm honestly like, if I, well, I should say a word of gratitude for all the people around me and all the mentors that I've had. Tommy, Dom, like the two of them have been, it's insurmountable the amount of mentorship they've gave me and I wouldn't be here without them. But so many other people as well, my supervisors.

01:10:03
incredible. I lucked out so hard with falling under his wing for these last few years as well. So yeah, it's nothing, it's not me, it's the people that have been letting me tag along with them. And you know what is so great, Kristy, because you've had this experience in academia, you're in a position that in 20 years time, you'll be able to have the same effect that others have had on you. Like how great, you know, like I just think that's such a gift. So.

01:10:32
Yeah, I think you're doing great work. I hope so. Yeah, amazing. Thank you. Thanks so much, Kristy. Yeah, thank you, Miki.

01:10:51
Alrighty, hopefully you enjoyed that as much as I did. You can see, she's like, I look at Kristy and just think, gosh, she's so young and it's felt, I feel like she has an extra decade on her with respect to her wealth of knowledge and her experience in this area. So I'm super excited to see what the future has in store for Kristy. All right, so next week on the podcast, guys, I speak to Dom Dagostino.

01:11:19
who has been on the podcast before, and of course is a mentor to Kristy, as you would have heard in our conversation. And Dom and I chat all about allulose, about ketosis, about a whole host of these super interesting metabolic health topics that is next week. However, if you're listening to this on the Wednesday, there is still time to sign up to my webinar today, 1 p.m. or 7 p.m. New Zealand time, and get the low down on

01:11:49
the best strategies for fat loss in 2025. So if you can't make it live, I am recording it and sending it out. So hit the link in the show notes and sign up. So if you've already got planned, you can catch up with it over the weekend. That's over on my website, mikkiwilliden.com. You can do that there. Or hit me up for a link in my DMs over on Instagram @mikkiwilliden. I'm on threads and Twitter @mikkiwilliden or Facebook.

01:12:17
@mikkiwillidennutrition. All right, team, have a great week. See you soon, bye.