00:00
Hey everyone, Mikki here. You're listening to Mikkipedia. This week on the podcast, I speak to Dr. Dan Plews, exercise physiologist, endurance coach and world champion Ironman athlete. And today we talk about his latest chapter, stepping into the world of high rocks. Dan has long been recognized for his scientific data-driven approach to endurance training and his advocacy for low carb, fat adapted fueling or

00:30
shall I say right fuel, right time. But his pivot into hybrid fitness has been both a personal and professional experiment. One that's tested his identity as an athlete, reshaped his training, and sparked new questions around fueling, function, and long-term health. In this conversation, we unpack the mindset shift from long steady-state Ironman prep to the explosive demands of high rocks. Dan shares what he's carried over from his Ironman days.

00:58
where he's had to reinvent his approach and how his fuelling strategy has evolved in a more glycolytically demanding sport. Or has it really? And this is what we dive into. We also explore the launch of Endurox, his Hirox specific training platform with Adam's story and his thoughts on where hybrid racing is headed. Whether you're an endurance athlete curious about functional fitness or just intrigued by how world-class performers adapt and evolve, this one is for you.

01:27
For those of you unfamiliar with Dan, god I'd be surprised if there was anyone. Dr. Dan Plews is a sports scientist, endurance coach and elite athlete with over two decades of experience in exercise physiology and applied coaching. He holds a PhD in heart rate variability and is a world leader in endurance training methodologies. Dan has coached athletes to multiple Ironman and Olympic level performances and in 2018 he made headlines by winning the Ironman World Champions in Kona, age group,

01:57
with a course record time of 8.24. That was the fastest ever by an amateur. And then I believe it was 22, where Dan actually went under eight hours in Ironman, California. We talk actually about whether he's really hung his head up or not, but for now he has turned his attention to HiRox. So Dan is the founder of Endura IQ, a science-based endurance education platform and the co-creator of Endurox.

02:24
which brings a structured physiology driven approach to high rocks training. Known for his evidence-based focus on low carbohydrate fueling and fat adaptation, Dan's current work spans high performance coaching, applied research, and helping everyday athletes train smarter and age better. I will pop links into where you can find out more information about both Dan and Endurox in the show notes. Before we crack on into it though, I would like to remind you that the best way to support this podcast

02:54
is to hit the subscribe button on your favourite podcast listening platform. That increases the visibility of Micopedia and it makes literally thousands of other podcasts out there. So more people get the opportunity to learn from guests that I have on the show like Dr Dan Plews. All right team, enjoy the conversation.

03:15
Really cool. In fact, your extra five minutes was quite good because I was just poofing down my own protein shake. So I have mine in a bowl though, because I don't love drinking my breakfast. I prefer to eat my breakfast. So, but I managed to start to get it down. So what? Is it like a, isn't it runny though? No. Or do you have oats in it? It's a thicky. No, I have mango, cauliflower, ice, almond milk and...

03:41
Don't even look at that face. God, if this was a video podcast, people would be like, what is up with Dan? It adds fluff. It makes it fluffy. Really? Yeah. Seriously. Interesting. haven't tried it, obviously. Try it. If you've got frozen cauliflower, even a floret or two, I just use cauliflower rice, and you've got to have the almond milk and ice has to be sort of the ratio has to be about the same. When you're visually putting it in your blender, puff up.

04:10
Sounds great, but I'll try it. try it. Let me know. hilarious. We are recording, by the way. I just laughed out loud when I put in, because I've got some questions to ask you about your transition from Iron Man to High Rocks, right? And I popped into chat GPT. I'm like, hey, so do you know Dan, please? you know, he's an exercise physiologist in chat. It's like, oh, yeah, I know, Dan, total weapon. Yeah, know.

04:40
I'm pleased to see that ChatGBT is improving its facts. Yeah, totally. They're like, well, that must be like everywhere on the internet of ChatGBT sort of comes up with it. But it's been a while since you've been on Micropedia. In fact, have you only been on once? I think you've managed to dip out of about three podcast requests. No, I've been on at least three times. Oh, fact check that. I'll ask ChatGBT. just go into my...

05:06
Well, know for certain it's two, but it could be three. Well, this feels long overdue because we have yet to talk about high rocks. So my first question to you, and I don't, you know, I don't actually usually go Q &A, but I'll just kick this off with why high rocks after Iron Man? Why? Yeah, how did you get into it actually? Like, how did you even discover it was like nothing and then suddenly it's all over my feed. How did you find out about it? Yeah, it's crazy, isn't it?

05:35
How it's grown. So I knew about it from my brother. My brother did one, but I kind of knew about it loosely before that, but I'd never really paid that much attention to it. So I don't know how I found out about it. think my brother mentioned it to me initially, but my brother did one and he was, and he basically suggested that I should do one because he thought I'd be pretty good at it. So I was like, oh yeah, okay. What time did you do? Oh yeah, good. I'll beat that.

06:05
And so, and so it began. Do know, I always wonder about the shift from an endurance athlete to like something which is, I mean, it's not endurance, it's explosive, but it's a long event. Yeah, would still say it's primarily endurance. like, so really, long story short though, well, maybe I'll just keep a long story long, but. Yeah, do. So after I did finish doing Ironman, which was 2023,

06:36
I decided that I wanted to get more into strength training, I did. And as you know, I like a lot of strength work and I did a lot of eating and gained a lot of mass. gained a lot of weight. How much did gain? I went from 74 to 89. I mean, isn't that a phenomenal, actually that in itself was quite heroic. I mean, the body's quite an amazing thing the way it adapts to.

07:03
what you make it do. I mean, if you're strict with what you, if you have good self discipline and you stick with good guidelines, your body can do amazing things. really can, you know? so yeah, so, you know, and I went to, went up to 89. But like the strength training, didn't really satisfy me very much. You know, I didn't, I didn't really enjoy it as much as I thought I would.

07:30
I didn't, I really despise the over eating. It was horrible. just like never feeling full, never feeling hungry, always feeling full, feeling heavy, feeling sluggish. just, it's just not, it's just not something for me. I really don't know how bodybuilders do it. I think it's it's going kudos to them because you go either going from one extreme where you're not, when you're eating too much to another extreme where you're just starving yourself. And I just like, well, it's like,

08:00
crazy to me. It's not something that I really typically enjoyed. I didn't really like seeing my cardio-spirit fitness gradually decline either. But I did get a lot stronger in that process. really got, I I wouldn't say I got strong, but I got stronger than I was because I was so weak before. I went from squatting, I could barely squat 70 kilos to more than 100. Is that typical?

08:29
Dan, like in your experience with other endurance athletes, like your lack of relative stress, I guess, is that typical of what you see with clients you work with and things like Yeah, it's very typical, very, very typical. Because one is they don't do enough in the gym and you don't have to be that strong. You really don't. In some ways, added muscle mass costs energy.

08:56
You just take with what you need and for especially something like Ironman that's over eight, nine hours, the absolute forces of every pedal stroke and every two stroke is really low. So you don't need to be that strong. No. you can get away with it. And that's why I think stroke training is great for endurance athletes, but I don't believe it's really contributing that much to performance generally. I think it's contributing.

09:23
That might contribute in some ways to make you a little bit more robust. So if you're someone who's injury-proud, you know, it's good, but I don't think making yourself physically stronger, actual result of making you physically stronger is having any impact on how well you're doing in Ironman. I'm not saying that there are side consequences of being a bit stronger might make you more injury resistant so you can train more and all that. That might have an impact, but the actual

09:50
the actual net or the very specific difference of going from, from say, you know, 60 kg squat to 100 kg squats, not making very, it's making very little difference. That's such a good point actually. And because I think, if I think about studies done in like cyclists and swimmers looking at their bone density, for example, it's like terrible, absolutely terrible. And then, I mean, with triathlon, swim, bike, run, I mean, running is great for

10:20
Running is pretty good for bone density. In fact, tennis apparently is like one of the best things. And any sort of impact type sport is here. Yeah, yeah. But so I appreciate what you're saying there. Yeah, but there was actually a study that was brought out not long ago. I can't remember the name of it. I think it's by a Spanish group. But they basically they compared squats versus over gearing on the bike, know, strength and the actual performance gain in cycling was better from doing over gearing on the bike.

10:50
it was actually doing squats. know, like specific strength. I mean, when I was doing Ironman, I believe a lot of specific strength training. So I did a lot of strength training, but very specific strength. So I did a lot of paddles in the pool, a lot of over-gimping on the bike, a lot of hill running, but I'd never really got into the gym and did very heavy weights. I do some like going there and do what most endurance athletes do. They throw, you know, do get the Swiss ball out and flop around on a foam roller.

11:17
you know, nothing really, nothing really that specific. I kind of enjoyed it. anyway, yeah, so yeah, never really, never, never really enjoyed it. I never really liked my cardio spiritual fitness got getting worse. And then I went on a cycling trip with my dad and my brother to Italy. So, so by default, I wasn't that fit cycling, but I was fit enough to keep up with my dad and my brother. That was, that was fine. But, but as a result, I got, you know, we were cycling for like

11:46
just over a week, we were doing like six, seven hour big, big ride days at massive Alpine passes. And I just, my fitness came back. So I got really fit really quick. I dropped, I dropped a lot of weight. went down to like, you know, back down to 80. So, you know, dropped to like five kilos in that period of time. Um, felt better. And I felt better. Yeah. I felt better. You know, my wrestling heart rate came, was lower. My HRV was higher. Um, and then from there I was like, yeah, okay.

12:16
My brother was on that trip, so I talked to him a bit more about higher ops than that. Then I entered one in Brisbane. Yeah. Sorry. And that was, what was that October or November? When was Brisbane? Brisbane was in... It was pre-Conor, wasn't it? It was before Conor. Yeah, it was before Conor. So I think it was like September, August. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it was late August. Yeah. Yeah. I...

12:43
For what it's worth, I know what you mean about a couple of things. First of all, the grind of eating and strength training, and that's what bodybuilders do as part of their sport. It is, it's just part of the sport, right? It's the same way that I'm sure most people couldn't see how you could get out on a bike for six hours, that they couldn't think of anything worse for triathlon. That's a grind as well, but it's just, that's the grind that you prefer compared to like... Yeah, exactly. it's just the way...

13:13
It's just the way it is. Yeah. I guess everyone, everyone likes their specific things, you know, and like I grew up doing endurance sports. So there's something that I really like and, um, you know, there's even some, love, I love so much about high-rise. I love the training, but there's some things that I don't particularly like compared to Ironman. Like, you know, I don't like the indoor aspects of the event, for example. Um, you know, I don't really like gyms. I'm not really a gym person. So, you know, I do most of my workout in my own garage because I feel it's,

13:42
I can open the garage door. feel like I'm outside. but I mean, I love the, but there's some things that really excite me is like, love being stronger. I love the diversity of the training because there's so many different things you have to train, just like triathlon, get swim by run, but now you've got, you you've running and you've got eight different stations to think about as well. So it's really interesting. It keeps things very, very cool. And, and there's a, and there's still a massive endurance element. So I get to do.

14:12
My gravel rides with my mates, I can go up in three hours and it's all benefit towards high rocks. I still get to do my runs. Um, but I also get that feeling of being a lot, a lot stronger, which is for me as, um, as I'm getting older is it, I feel it ticks the boxes of my, my longevity bucket, you know, and what I want to do in terms of growing of aging well. but

14:35
And even the mobility side of it, there's a big aspect of, there's way more mobility required in higher ops than there is in triathlons, for the burpee broad jumps and the wall balls. it's great. Actually, can you just go through what the stations are and how it works? Because I know obviously singles have to do everything, but is it true that in doubles, you don't pick and choose, but you can sort of play to your strengths? So can you sort of walk us through a higher ops?

15:03
Yeah, okay. Let me do that. So, so HiRox is made up of, so there's two different events in HiRox. So there's the HiRox Open and there's the HiRox Pro. What I would say, what I would say is that the word pro is a little bit misleading. It kind of, what you and me think of pro, we think, you know, it's you're in the pro race and, and like, but it's not like that at all. It's, it's just a different event that has heavier weights, basically. So you use, you use it so that you use heavier weights in the stations.

15:33
So I mean, I would like to do, you you would do a 70.3, you do a full Ironman. It's just, they're just different events. Like you could do a pro race tomorrow if you entered it. There's nothing, there's no ability required to do it. You just decide which one you want to do to your particular strengths. But the world championships is only in the pro weight. So you can't do the world championships in the open weight. So it is kind of the main event. So to go through the stations, it starts with a one kilometer run.

16:03
It goes one kilometer run and then a thousand meters on the ski. One kilometer run, 50 meters of sled push. One kilometer run, 50 meters of sled pull. One kilometer run, 80 meters of burpee broad jumps. One kilometer run, 1,000 meters of rowing. One kilometer run, 200 meters of farmers carry. One kilometer run, 100 meters of lunges. One kilometer run and then a hundred wall balls. And then you're into the finish. But the weights change.

16:33
If I just talk about the men's race, because I'm not actually sure what the women's open is. I know what women's pro is, but just to talk about the men's. I'm sorry that I don't go for the women's as well. The ski is the same. The sled push is 152 kilos on the open to 202 kilos on the pro. The pull goes from 102 kilos on the open to 152 kilos on the pro.

17:03
The farmer's carry goes from 24 kilos in each hand to 32 kilos in each hand for the farmer's carry. The lunging goes from 20 kilos sandbag on your back to 30 kilos sandbag on your back. And then the wall balls goes from six kilo wall ball to nine kilo wall ball. So it's quite a big step up. And if you do doubles, do you have to do all of the stations like

17:29
How does that work? Yeah. So the way it works in the doubles is that you run together, but you can share the stations and you can share the stations in any way, in a way you like. So it's like, you go, go, you go, I go. so say like, you know, like, um, but you can, you can do it however you want. So when I did the duals with Art, for example, because I was a stronger runner than him, I would start and finish the stations. So he would do the middle station. So, you know, because then he would, cause he would, he would more tired coming off the runs and then he'd get a rest before we started the run again.

17:59
So then he'd do the middle bit, have a rest and then we'd start. But if, and that's kind of, but you can really do it any way you want. Like if I do it, I'm probably going to do a mixed doubles with Kate in Sydney. And if I do that, I will, you know, I'll probably do, I'll do more of the station, obviously, you know, I'll probably do a third and two thirds, she'll do a third or something like that. Yeah. So what do you prefer Dan? Do you like the singles or the doubles? Oh, they're just very, they're very different. I mean,

18:27
I am always, I've always been a, it depends a lot from a competitive, like my focus, it's the singles, but I enjoy doing the doubles as a, as an extra thing, as an extra thing for just fun and enjoyment. So typically like I've done single. So when I did in Auckland, I actually did the open in the morning singles and that finished at nine 30. Then I did the doubles with art in the afternoon at one 30. So I did two in one day. And then when I did, when I did Brisbane, did the open, I did the pro.

18:56
the pro men on the Saturday night. And then I did the open doubles with my friend Adam Story on the on the Sunday morning. So, you can you can you can do them. I mean, I think I like them both really. They're just they're just very different. It's it's nice having to do something with someone else is a lot of fun. It's something I've never done before. So. And yeah, and I'm curious, like I imagine that the idea of

19:24
figuring out how to train for something like this would have been so great for your exercise, physiology, strength conditioning brain, you know, like, and I mean, I know you're not strength and conditioning, we're saying we'll get to Endurox in a while, but like, was it a bit of a puzzle for you to sort of figure out, okay, how am I going to optimize my training to sort of suit this event? Like that would have been quite an exciting challenge, reckon. Yeah, it definitely was quite an exciting challenge. like, I think I'm really still, I think everybody,

19:51
is still learning a lot in the sport now. think no one really, really knows, really knows the answer. But, you know, it's definitely been quite an exciting experience to try and figure out how to train properly for it. And so far, I think I've done a reasonable, reasonable job. you know, and I don't know everything, can I've, I've seeked the help of people who been in the sport longer than I have. And I've asked a lot of questions and I've got a bit of guidance here and there, because I think, you know, I'm very naive to think that I'm a bona fide expert in high rocks. I've just done

20:20
I've only done three races, three single races. I think even though, I think if you understand physiology, you can build training programs, but the experience still counts. so I have asked other people's opinions and got help when required as well. Yeah. And how many hours would you spend training a day now compared to say, I guess, I'll say your most competitive Ironman time, and I don't even know.

20:47
If that's like, there's only, so how many hours now compared to your lead up to maybe your last Ironman in California? Yeah. I'd say I do about 15 hours now. So I still train quite a lot. mean, but you know, it's just my nature is that I'm quite, you know, I like to things properly. You know, that's what I do. But yeah. whereas, well, I'd I'd be around 15 hours now, whereas I could have been around 20 25 when I was training for Ironman. So it's quite a bit less, but it's still.

21:18
Yeah. mean, it's still, main thing is, the long sessions aren't as long anymore, you know, and like, and with the, with the young kids, like I used to go out on a Saturday morning and I'd be, you know, I'd be gone nearly the whole, whole morning until the afternoon. And then I'd be, when I got back, I was absolutely shattered anyway. So I couldn't, I couldn't really parent almost. And thankfully I just don't get that. I don't get that high level of fatigue that I used to get anymore. So that's pretty nice actually. Yeah. And has it sort of.

21:48
tick the boxes with what you might've been missing with your Ironman training? Yeah, because of the, because there's still a massive endurance aspect to it. You know, I still run 60 K a week, you know, so I still run a lot because running, you know, that's, you look at the athletes who doing well in, in high rocks, who are coming from different sports, you know, people, they all have a good aerobic background. You know, it's mainly, mainly if you can run well, it's half of the event.

22:16
You know, it's pretty much half and half, half stations, half running, but you know, that's one event of running where you've got all those other different stations is just, you know, they're all very different. So any niggles or injuries sort of crop up with the switch in training? Like I bet something like this would really sort of magnify any weaknesses. Yeah. I mean, think pretty good actually. I mean, I would say I've always had, I mean, I've always had a bit of a niggly back generally.

22:45
And I would say it's actually got better than doing this kind of thing. But it's just, I've been pretty lucky so far. I've had a few little niggles here and there, know, my back's played up a little bit here. Sometimes my knees feel a bit sore from lunging. But I mean, nothing, nothing crazy, really. I mean, it's a very physically demanding sport. So, you know, you'd imagine that you would be getting

23:09
a few more hindrances because of the kind of positions you're putting yourself in all the time. But so far, they've been pretty fortunate really. Yeah. And so how does your training week look then, Dan? Like if someone was, mean, no one is going to copy what you do. I say that, of course everyone's going to copy if they listen to it, but I'm super keen to hear how your training sort of rolls out for the week. Do you have, I imagine you have a set schedule.

23:34
or an idea in your head about what each day might look like. Yeah. So typically at the moment I'm doing my week because there's something like this. So Monday I'll do a big session in the gym. it's that generally now. So I'll probably run in the morning something endurancey like, you know, 15 minutes to an hour, just endurance. And then I'll do a gym session, which will be more upper body focused. know, military press.

24:02
bench press, that sort of thing. So very upper body, upper body focus. And that will be that day. Tuesday, I generally do something a bit harder, like a double threshold day. So I'll do like some kind of threshold running in the morning. Usually I'll be doing it on the treadmill because I've been doing it so early and it's pitch back outside. I just do it on the treadmill. And then in the afternoons, I'll do something a bit shorter, but quite intense on the ski or on the row. So it will be

24:30
you know, but now we between five and eight K on the road machine and between 12 and 14 K running something like that. Wednesday, I go out and I do a gravel ride. Generally with my mates with Gordie and with Cam Brown as well. So we generally go out we do we leave, we go gravelling, we leave early and do about three hours just steady endurance. And then that's all I'll do on that day. Thursday, I will do

24:58
And it'll be either a run or like a short circuit, but the main event is a legs day. So I'll do something quite heavy, legs, which will be, you know, some of the main exercises will be like lunging and Bulgarian split squats, general squats, deadlifts, know, that sort of day. And then Friday, I'll do another harder run with sometimes another, which will be like threshold, but kind of uphill on the treadmill, like six.

25:27
6 % gradient, I'm harder running. then I might back that up with maybe another session, like a day session in the afternoon, which will also be quite hard. Then Saturday, do. What do you do on Saturday? Yeah, Saturday, I do what I call a compromised run. So that's like, generally, I'll be on the track and I'll be hard running. But like I'll do bodyweight stuff in between the intervals.

25:56
So I'll be like walking lunges into a run, like lunging into a run. So I might do like 40 minutes of walking lunges, 40 minutes of burpee broad jumps and then run a 800. And then I'll take a rest and do that or something like that. And then Sunday I do a long run, which is not, I don't run that long anymore. Like long for me is like an hour and 15. And I'll do full, a full body gym. wow. And when does the, and do you do like simulated high rocks?

26:26
as part of your usual training? No, I don't do that. No, I am. just, I did it at start, but I don't, mean, there's always, cause you're always kind of simulating it continuously anyway. I just don't, you know, so I don't take a rest day. Um, but I don't really feel like like rest days and I don't really need one because I'm not training. I'm not training hard enough to merit one really. And you always just, gotta, I mean, you gotta sort of figure out what helps.

26:54
how your body's feeling, right? Like I'm sure if you... Even when I did Ironman, I never took any rest days. I used to just swim only, I'd swim 5K in the morning and that was my rest day. mean, people think that's crazy, but I didn't really have proper rest days. Barry and I, often talk about, like, cause I'm like, oh yeah, I'm having a rest day and he's like, what is it? Resistance exercise and some swim training? And I'm like,

27:19
REST or it's like a ride easy and strength train, you know, like I'm the same, like active recovery is what I call it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then that's the thing. I mean, I actually still do a reason amount of cycling. So sometimes on a Thursday I'll ride as well. You know, often I'll do some easy bites, like an hour here and hour there. But I don't really do any intervals on the bike anymore. I just use it for like extra endurance training because I kind of like getting on Zwift every now and again and getting out on the gravel.

27:49
So, and I think there's a lot to be said for doing three hours on the gravel, compared to, mean, most high-rise athletes are not doing that and they probably can't do that. And I think it must, that aerobic endurance is so important. It has a massive benefit. Now, mean like gravel versus road, like, it just because on a road bike, if you're on for three hours, you're stopping a lot in traffic and it's a difference with gravel or is it a different, yeah, talk me through that.

28:18
It's very similar, as I must say. Yeah, it's just safer. And I suppose as well, like if I think about, are there many people in your position, I'm thinking about the McKenzys, like they've taken to high rocks as well, Beth and Luke, and past endurance athletes, or still endurance athletes, but used to be triathletes. I imagine that anyone coming from that endurance background is...

28:42
likely already, not ahead of the game, but they've already got that sort of aerobic base that you're talking about. Yeah, exactly. But then they struggle with other things, right? You know, they struggle with a bit more of the stations and some of it, particularly the mobility side, I think is a big struggle for some of the endurance athletes. So it's always pros and cons, you know, you know, someone from a CrossFit background, they're really, really good at the stations, but they're not so good at running. So it's like, it's all a balancing, balancing out to me.

29:11
So like the, when I did Brisbane, when I raced in the pro race, was 40, think I was 30 or 40 seconds behind the guy who won the World CrossFit Games two or three times. So that's a kind of, so, you know, he's the very, very best at CrossFit ever, you know, one of the best ever. And he was, he was just in front of me.

29:33
You know, was a triathlete who's an old fart too. That'd be right. What are you? 41? 41? Actually, who is a weapon? Yeah, a total weapon. Not just a weapon, a total weapon. Hey, so obviously I'm really interested in your diet. And in fact, lots of people asked me when I said that I was chatting to you about high rocks, I got lots of DMs going, does Dan do now for his diet? Because he was such a proponent of low carb and a lot of high rocks is high intensity, highly glycolytic.

30:03
et cetera. Has it changed? What's the go? Well, I mean, not much. No, I say I've really changed it that much. I was never, as you know, was never like a keto guy either, right? I was always lower carb. But really, I mean, if I gave you my weekly diet or my daily diet, you would still consider it pretty low.

30:28
Like I don't think it really affects your high intensity to be honest. you, mean, I think if you're really keto and you're down at 20 grams a day, yes. But when you, you know, I'll be anywhere between a hundred and 200 grams a day still. mean, would say now a bit more like I'm not as strict as I used to be, you know, so I think like when, if an opportunity to, I don't really get as fussed as I used to be really, you know, generally I'm still following the same diet, but I just would guess I have a few more slip ups here.

30:56
Well, I wouldn't say it's a slip up because that seems like it's something I don't want to do, but I'm just a bit looser with it because it's not... The reason I'm looser is because it's not as in... mean, having a good phallus adhesion is not really that important for hyrox. it was quite... I deemed it as a real benefit for Iron Man for me and it was one of the reasons that I did... I was quite good, you know. But yeah, actually it hasn't really changed.

31:25
hasn't really changed that much. And I think it doesn't really affect your hyperphotia or glycolytic activity. Do you listen to Andy Galpin? I know who he is, yeah. I haven't really listened to much of I haven't listened to his podcast ever. I mean, I've listened to a couple of them. You know how people just get stuck in that guru, or they get sort of shot into, now I'm a guru type.

31:52
I don't know whether they place themselves there or just people just sort of talk about the same way Huberman is sort of put up there as a guru. Yeah. Yeah. was chatting to a nutritionist, Jordan Sullivan. He's a sport dietitian. He's a super expert in that sort of sport dietitian and that fighting space. And then we're just having a conversation about low carb and endurance athletes.

32:21
Jordan, he's Australian. He's sort of come through probably AIS, so he still has ties to AIS. And it's just so interesting to me, because it seems this is a bit of a tangent from Hirox, but that Louise Burke's research on racewalkers is held up as the prime example of the best research done in the low-carb space for racewalkers. And they talked about her being the greatest of all time in nutrition. She's done a lot in nutrition, absolutely.

32:49
But almost every single person that has conducted research in the low-carb space and those who haven't could look at that study and absolutely the collection of studies. there is just so much that was sort of designed to prove low-carb didn't work. It was just crazy to me that they're still looking at that like that's the be all and end all research. It's really maddening. And of course, you can design any study to give the outcome that you want it to give.

33:19
And what's quite interesting, you know, we always say, oh, well, it was only three weeks, but you know, it was only three weeks. and the, um, and if you know anybody who does a ketadine diet, when do they feel the worst? In the first three weeks? Yeah. Yeah. In the first three weeks. Exactly. You know, and it's literally after that, where they start coming out. And that's why, you know, and that's why you're Andrew Kutnick, right. And prints and notes and stuff, you know, they're, they're supposed to be in six weeks and they've been night and

33:47
night and day difference. they specifically said is that it's after three weeks, they're terrible after six weeks, you get, you know, it's like, but also, you know, what we've even worse in that study is it, you know, is specifically designed to elicit hyperglycemia in the intervention group in the cut keto group. you're, you know, you're, you're pushing those athletes to be hyperglycemic. So of course they're going to go worse, but like,

34:14
As we know now, as we've always known really, is that if you can prevent hyperglycemia, you give just enough carbs to keep the glucose stable, which the recent study with PRINZ is like 10 grams an hour. It's enough to get rid of any hyperglycemia because end of the day, it's all to do with that. And I think like what my stance on the low carb now is that I do not believe a low carb diet is better for performance than a high carb diet.

34:43
But I will tell you it's no different. It's exactly the same. you know, we have systematic reviews, arguably the gold standard of, of evidence, right, that a systematic review that show there's no difference. But yeah, we still we still seem to have the people of authority like Andy Galpin, and this other guy who just, who just say it doesn't, it says it's terrible. And that's total, it's total nonsense is the same.

35:12
So the bottom line is, that athletes have choices. You can have a choice of which, if you want to follow a low carb diet, you follow a low carb diet. You follow a high carb diet, follow a high carb diet, but it should be governed by how you feel, your blood glucose levels, your ability to tolerate different levels of carbohydrates. These are the main things that should be governing what diet you follow. Performance on one side.

35:39
is irrelevant because it's going to be the same. So then what about the other side? you've your performance, you've got your health. So if you're someone who feels that they can go feel better, feel healthier on a high carbon, higher carbohydrate, then they go for it. But many people don't do that, don't feel that way. And they can't be that way because the metabolism won't support it. So yeah, it's unbelievable. And people of authority who have no idea and what's worse?

36:08
sounds like a move better around, you know, what's worse is that they have no idea that they have no idea. I know. You know, it's frustrating as hell. That's, that's more frustrating. So it's the, it's listening to them say that, know, these are the best studies conducted and, this is the state of the research. And I'm like, what about that study there that, you know, showed that 85 %, 85 % verity makes no difference in performance, you know, like the print study on the, on the 5k.

36:37
on the middle aged athletes running a 5k or? Yeah, the 800 meters. I mean, there's loads of it. it's, like I say, it's the bottom line is, is that if you're an athlete, don't have to follow high carb diet. you don't have to, if you struggle to metabolize glucose, get someone who has gets a lot of gastrointestinal discomfort. You know, you can

37:05
You know, you can, it doesn't have to be low carb, but I would suggest something like periodized carb. Like, well, you you probably read Marco Altini's blog recently of his, the way he, did this carbohydrate periodization. So on the lower days when he was doing low intensity training, he was around 36 grams of carbs a day. On the higher days, he was like between 200 and 300 grams a day. And to me, I think that's almost the gold standard of nutrition right there. And that's carbohydrate periodization.

37:32
We often talk about carbohydrate periodization as in, as we just go really high in carbs and then we sometimes cut it out. That to me is the wrong way around to do it. Marco did it the exact way it should be done, is it's generally lower out, lower, better for your health. You know, you can get more protein in that way. Brilliant. And then you, and then you increase, increase it for those in higher, higher intensity days. And he improved his fallacydation life.

38:00
Yeah, like more than double this fat oxidation, more than double, improve his written economy, improve his ability to do high intensity efforts, improve everything, you know, and his general demeanor and wellbeing. So yeah, it's just a, I just, it's an interesting one for sure. Yeah. And I agree with you with that carb periodization and doesn't that just, it feels just like common sense as well. On a day where you're out training four or five hours, you increase your carbohydrate intake, you know, you increase your overall energy intake as well.

38:29
Yeah. I mean, the bottom line is it's quite hard to meet your calorie requirements with just fats and proteins. If you're doing like a four or five hour day, it's quite difficult. think that these are some of the... mean, over the time, I would say I've probably changed my tune a little bit on that side of things. Whereas I used to just be like, I'll just do like almost the same amount of carbohydrates all the time.

38:59
I think I've learned now that a bit of an increase on those higher days and a decrease in the lower days, overall you're being lower, I think is really good. Yeah, no, I agree because I guess the other thing which you did mention, just performance, there may not be a difference, but it's not just health while you're doing the sport, but it's health later. When you still want to be healthy at 50, 60, 70, 80.

39:26
And you sort of, know, in your prime of your life in your 30s and 40s, I suppose, like you sort of yourself up for, for how the next few decades are going to look too. Exactly. So talk to me then Dan, so obviously you've got Enduro IQ. Yes. Yep. So you're still training triathletes. You're still, and so you're a coach, you're still putting, people are still,

39:55
going through your courses and you're still like educating them on the triathlon side of things. Have you lost any love for triathlon? No, not in the slightest. I I'm still a total triathlon lover for sure. I wouldn't say it's changed at all. I mean, I'm still so involved in it, right? Still coaching a lot of athletes and still trying to educate a lot of athletes still. Yeah, I mean, you know, like I was doing on Saturday, was it Sunday? I was in the gym and I had like the

40:24
Geelong 70.3 on in there whilst it was going on. I still follow the sport and everything that's going on and I'm still very passionate about that. Yeah, nice one. But of course, you've had the you and Adam story who you mentioned earlier that you did your doubles with in Brisbane. You guys have put together Endurox. Yeah, so Endurox is just another

40:50
I would say it's not really another arm, I'd say it's a whole new company and I'm trying to keep them quite separate, like the EnduroX and EnduroIQ. So we are very different companies because I don't want them to get intertwined. I do worry about the Triathletes feeling that I've forgotten about Triathlon, which I haven't at all. I still have so much, I'm way more interested, way more.

41:15
I would spend all my days doing triathlon stuff mainly still, you know, and I do a little bit of high rocks. So yeah, so, but, and, and what we don't have with EnduroX is it's only going to be a subscription, subscription, subscription based training model. So we won't do courses and we won't be doing one-on-one stuff. It's like programs for people who want to engage and want to get into high rocks. Subscription based programs really. you join the society as we call it. So the EnduroX society.

41:44
It's kind of the community group where, you know, you can have webinars, you can, you have training plans, you have a rolling plan, you can drop in the different phases of training, we help you do that. And it's between me and Adam's story. And I think it's a really good setup, because, you know, as you know, most of loss of my career was based as an exercise physiologist, right? so we were, so we would

42:14
as exercise physiologist, we'd work with the coaches as an endurance expert, right? And then we'd build the programs out, the coaches built that. But then on the other side, the coaches, had the strength and conditioning expert who was a real strength guru. And I think that's something that's really missing in high rocks is that I believe that you cannot be a bona fide expert in both of these things. You can have good knowledge. mean,

42:38
I would have good knowledge in both, but I'd have nowhere near as much knowledge in the strength and conditioning space as someone like Adam does, who is just a purest PhD in sport and strength and conditioning related activities. And on the other side, you've got me, who's more of a pure endurance physiologist who's spent his lifetime in doing testing and working with athletes purely in the exercise physiology and working in the endurance space.

43:05
And know, then what happens in general Olympic programs is you have these, these two levels of expertise that build the program. And that's what we're doing in endurance is we've got to the highest level of expertise in endurance and strength to build the ultimate hybrid program. and I think like all the other higher arts programs, they, probably just can't compete with that because they don't have that level from each side. You've got one person who is trying to be an expert in all of that. And I really don't think it.

43:32
I think it's quite hard to do that. Yeah. So is it up and running, Dan? Yep, it's up and running. Yeah. So people can join. it's all online, Endurox.co. So no M, so not com, so Endurox.co. And you can sign up and join the society now and it's all ready to go. I we're still building things out. So we've had some explanation videos made. We actually had our first weekly webinar this morning. Oh, nice one. That was pretty good.

44:02
But yeah, we're just trying to see where it goes really, know, just build it and hopefully we'll get a good community going. Yeah, such a good idea. Like I love the idea of high rocks. I'm not sure if I, I'm not ready to dive in or anything like that, but I can absolutely see the appeal for someone who has an endurance background, sort of might be looking for something different because for whatever reason they can't run in four hours anymore or whatever.

44:32
it's got so many of the same elements that sort of lend itself, that you're drawn into when you are like a runner or a triathlete. Yeah, but I think everyone's drawn into it, right? Even the mums going to the gyms are drawn into it. And that's what we're trying to do at Enduro is different to Enduro IQ. Enduro IQ, I would say we're quite high end and we seem to attract the higher end triathletes. Whereas with Enduro, we're really trying to be very

45:00
welcoming and holistic to everyone. So no matter what the level, mean, our motto is that we meet you at your level and take you to the next with this idea that the scientific application of training is for everyone. You know, regardless of what your, regardless of your ability, regardless of your beginner, intermediate or advanced, the scientific method of training should still apply to you because you still want to be training in the same zone. You still want to be working the same movements that are specific to high rocks.

45:29
And all these things are still important no matter what your level is. I don't believe that because you're a beginner, you should just have a program that's like run for five minutes. Oh, run for 30 minutes with no intensity around it or, you know, or just do, five times, five times 10 reps with no intensity or specific, specific, it's hard to say, specificity around it. Right. So, um,

45:54
And that's what we try and do in George's, which really try and push that for people to believe that that scientific method is not actually that complicated and it can be for everyone. yeah. Nice one. how many, like, is it structured in that, what, three days a week, four days a week, five days a week, you can sort of jump in and do however many sessions each week? Yeah, yeah. So the way we structure it is we have basically four different levels. So we have what we call the

46:23
The contender, the challenger, the pioneer and the endurox. So they're like, know, they're different levels of just basically beginner, intermediate, competitive and advanced. Right. So, um, and every single day there's between one and three sessions in the program. We number them one to three. So if you, can, you prioritize one, if you want to do two, you do two. If you're like big time, you want to do three, you do three. But obviously, you know, you're contenders and your challenges are doing probably one or two.

46:52
and we kind of make that suggestion. And then also within each session, we're also giving different recommendations for beginners and intermediates. So for example, we might do as many rounds as possible for 35 minutes for the Endurox, the Advance, but then we say, okay, for your pioneers, just do 15 minutes of this. So it's all catered for for the different levels as you jump into the program. So yeah, that's the way we do it. Nice one. And is it in lead up to a particular event, you know, like

47:20
12 weeks out from Brisbane or actually, regardless of when the next event is, these are just things that are foundational to your performance with high rocks. Yeah, so it's both really. So we have a foundational plan, which which ultimately gets injected into your training plan. So the foundational plan that you can follow.

47:41
But then we have lots of other plans that you could drag and drop into your calendar and do that instead. So we have like tapers, for example. So if you've got a race coming up, you could follow the foundational plan and then pulling a taper just before the race. Or we have like a four-week competition phase that you could just pull in if you've got a competition coming up. So theoretically, you could follow the foundational plan and drop in a competition phase four weeks before and a taper phase. And then you can just follow it like that. So that's how it rolls.

48:10
Well, obviously put in the show notes where people can find in Durox. A couple of extra things, Dan. You and I talked before your Brisbane one. We sent some emails about just the nutrition because of course was, the competition was in the evening and actually 10.30, I think, PM New Zealand time. Yeah, well, was 8.20 PM Brisbane time, which was 11.20 PM New Zealand time. How did that go? How did that work out? It went really well. Yeah. I mean,

48:39
I couldn't sleep that night. But your performance was great. Yeah, my performance was great. Yeah. I I knew I wanted to start the event feeling a little bit hungry, which I did. You know, I just kept things quite simple that whole day. I tried not to eat that too much the whole day, really. I was waiting around all day for it, obviously. I just kept things simple, which was like just, you know, basically plain rice pretty much. Yeah, I didn't really just, just.

49:05
kept it as easy as could. And my stomach was a bit sore after, I think I always used to get that when I used to be young. When I was younger, I used to do like quite a hard track session in the evenings with my club. And that used to always give me like, I used to call it runners, like a runner's tummy is really sore runners to me. And I had that after the event, but I think it's just, I think it's often just the case of

49:30
You just kind of, have to eat all day and then you do a really, really hard session. Like when you're really high heart rates and it just, it's still, doesn't really like it very much. You know, think it's, I think it's the intensity more than anything else. Interesting. I am on the last day of the stage run that we had, we had a rest day before we did that. The last three days was 83 K rest day and then 33 K and the rest day was

49:56
It was fine, but obviously you did nothing else. And so you ended up sort of eating quite a bit. And I actually think I ate too much to then get up and have the fatigue meant that my heart rate was higher. And actually my stomach just did not play the game at all that day. Like I really think there's, and I think to what you just said, like the high heart rate, your nervous system, like there's so much that just goes against good digestion. Oh yeah, for sure. And the higher the intensity, the worse.

50:25
Right. so like, you know, you're pretty much an hour of an hour as hard as you can go really, you know, it's good. quite enjoyed the pro weight to be honest. think I I actually preferred it. one. And look, just to, I guess, finish up, but also pivot slightly, Pella Performance, the podcasts, the supplements, the podcasts have been great by the way.

50:54
Really loved. Yeah, I saw you had my old mate Greg on. He was amazing. He's really good. the best. Really great. He knows his amigas. He really does. And I've got to say, Dan, when you said in that interview with him that you bite your fish oils and it actually tastes pretty good, which of course is a great way to figure out whether or not they're oxidized, right? Yeah.

51:17
It's bloody good actually. It's not even that it doesn't taste bad actually. Like, because I did that in the weekend with Nordic Naturals and it was so disgusting. I'm like, okay, so this is something that Pella does really well. Like, not only are they really great quality supplements, but actually they taste really good too. think the taste speaks to the quality, right? Agree. Because, I mean, you know it's not oxidised and it's not been sitting around for long and you know it's fresh. So, I mean, that speaks to the quality of it, which is quite amazing. Yeah, I totally agree.

51:47
And I've also, on the back of someone who was interested that I was having a discussion with Greg, sent me an Omega 3 index test to sort of see where I'm at, I have done it and I've sent it away. Let's see, let's have a competition. love this I knew you were going to say that. No, I already know yours is going to be higher because I haven't.

52:09
been taking supplements for three months yet. I've only been really doing it for about six weeks since I dumped on the... Please, please, I'll give you... Usually it's about five weeks to see a good bump in the DHA. Okay. Oh, good. Well, I've been really consistent. Yeah. So if you've been consistent, you'll see a difference in... Five weeks is the kind of the time. So usually, like DHA, you see a big bump, you see a bump in five weeks. I'm probably preaching to the preacher here, sorry, but... No, it's good. People who don't know, I'm going to tell them anyway.

52:38
But then the EPA, you'll see differences pretty quick. Well, it's interesting because you take three capsules, I only take two, although, albeit, probably 20 kilos. Well, you take five. Okay, so I take two. So there may be a slight difference. But don't forget, five for weapons. That's true. That's true. For total weapons, you've got to five. Yeah. It's actually on the list. It's like three, four.

53:07
Five total weapons. Yeah. No, I like it. You're right. It should be. So how long have you been with Pella for now? Cause aren't you the chief scientific officer? Head of research. Head of research. Two years, think. Yeah. Two or three years. It is a great company, Dan. Like they've got some quality, like almost every supplement that I've seen. And now that I take, like they are, it's just, you can take with integrity, you know, because

53:36
They're designed with great ingredients. They actually really serve a purpose. And it's not, you're not just taking it because for the sake of taking something. mean, but I mean, Damien, Damien, who's the CEO, you know, he's really passionate about micronutrition and he's, he's just really passionate about the company. And I think we all are. we're all very, I mean, I'm very proud to be part of Pillar. You know, I wear that brand on my chest with great pride. And I think that's how everyone feels.

54:05
who works for the company and Damien's done a great job of as a CEO of installing that and they're a really good company to be worked for and be part of and you know, I really like it because because you're just proud of what's being produced, right? You know, you get your get your when you when you have when you when you're part of something that you really can't live without, you know, I cannot live I really need their supplements and I think they really

54:32
they are really net gain in my life and that's really cool. Yeah, no, I totally agree with that. On supplements, I think one of the first, our first interview together, we talked about all of the supplements that you take. This was probably three or four years ago now. So have you, has any of that, I mean, I imagine some of it has changed, but other than the pillar supplements and actually just go through, what do you take on a day-to-day basis?

55:02
So I start the day with collagen, 15 grams of my coffee. So I'll do that. And I also have ketones in my coffee too. Is it Delta G that you have? do you... Delta G coffee booster. Right. And sometimes a bit of MCT as well. So I have that. And then I'll have some, I mean, I'll intermittently have B12.

55:29
I don't have it all the time. have it as and when I feel like I want it. So I'll have that. I have Omega 3s every day, so five caps of that. And then I'll have creatine as well. I'm going have that with my smoothie after workouts generally, but I stopped taking it before a race, maybe two to three weeks before a race. Just to give the body weight down by a kilo or two? Yeah, exactly.

55:59
So I'll take it, I'll take it during training, but not just before I race. Uh, I do think I do get a bit of weight gain from it. Well, I know I do. Um, and then, and then the magnesium, I take the magnesium every night before, before I sleep. I mean, they're the main ones and yeah, that's, that's kind of, that's kind of the main one. That's it really. I think this is a thing that you could take all manner of supplements. There are so many things that you could take for so many reasons, but you

56:28
to simplify it, think is a good way to go, actually. But I think, what I mentioned there, know, collagen, omega-3s, magnesium, know, creatine, right, those four probably have the best science behind them, right, in terms of their usage and the benefit, right? So I'm quite confident with those four.

56:56
I was taking some other stuff before. I used to take an NAD, for example, and nicotide mononucleotide. But the evidence is so mixed and it's expensive. So I just stopped taking it. Yeah, so there's been so many different things you can take. Two things. One, the Pella magnesium pineapple and coconut is the most delicious thing I think I've ever

57:26
I like the berry more. Oh no. Most people like the pineapple one more actually. Well maybe, okay that's another thing then. Is that another thing that makes you a total weapon? I'm just looking for the difference between what makes Dan different. vitamin D is probably the only thing missing from your thing Dan. Oh well actually I take the immune as well. Okay right, is it good with the K2 in it?

57:55
Yeah, it's got zinc, vitamin D and vitamin C. Oh yeah. Okay. Again, I don't take that all the time. I take it when I'm traveling. I take it when I'm training really hard, like in the happy training load days. I'll take it if I'm feeling a bit off, which I am at the moment. I'm feeling that, you know, I've got a bit of a head cold, so I'm taking it at the moment. Yeah, so do take that. But I mean, at the moment, I get so much sun. I don't need it. Yeah. Although,

58:22
And not to tell you what you probably already know anyway is that UVB rays are gone now. So our ability to synthesize vitamin D is like pretty minimal. Oh really? Yeah, I know. So it's super sunny. It's really gorgeous. Not much UVB. So that's another good reason to get you in all the clues on it actually. Yeah. Well, we do take that. We do take that. Yeah. We used to take that. I used to have the droppers. Yeah. Yeah, they're good. But I stopped taking that because I was taking the

58:52
Yeah, you you'd benefit actually with it in addition to. Yeah, okay. Maybe we'll get back on the droppers. Yeah, do get back on the droppers. Put your whole family on them. Yeah, I shall. shall. Under the top. Nice one. Nice one. Hey, I'm Dan. What else? Anything else that you can tell us that is new that you're excited about for like the rest of 2026, 2025?

59:15
Not really. mean, I think the viewers or listeners need to get involved in the TSS. Do you think so? Okay. Do you know about the TSS, Mickey? I think I do actually. I can't recall what it stands for, but I believe you release it monthly. Yeah. Yeah. So TSS is the training science summaries. There you go. Yes. Love that. Yeah. Training science summary. So every month we take 10

59:45
New studies, sometimes we put a couple of golden oldies in there too, like a golden oldie and we basically, we do a review of the latest research in endurance, in the endurance space and nutrition as well. And we review it, we summarize it, give practical application based on it and it's a great way to keep up to date with what's going on in the research world really, to keep current with your best, with your practice.

01:00:13
Whether you're a nutritionist, an endurance coach, a student, it's just a great way to keep on top of it. it's me and Dr. Ed Monda who take the studies and we summarize them. And it's only $7.50 a month. New Zealand? USD. USD, yeah. $7.50 USD per month. So it's super cheap, but it's really worthwhile. A great read through. You can read it on your phone.

01:00:42
keep up to date and yeah, should check it out via, I can give you the link for that. Yeah, no, we'll absolutely put it in the show notes. And I mean, I've been a long time fan of your blogs, Dan, because you're so good at distilling information in a way that everyone can understand so that you have this monthly collection. And also studies that might not even make it to sort of the headlines, but super important, that'd be awesome. Yeah, exactly. And I'm kind of, I think that's one thing that I will be doing differently in 2025 is I'm

01:01:12
I'm going to stop doing the blogs. I'm going to do the TSS one and I'm going to do more YouTube videos, educational YouTube videos like the one I did for Lionel Sanders. I that. That was very good. Yeah. I'll do more there. And it was actually surprisingly popular. Great. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not surprised. So, yeah. Obviously there was a few negative comments, but I'd say it was 80 % positive, 20 % negative, which is fine.

01:01:42
That's great. I mean, you're not there to please everyone, are you? No, and you never will, right? No, totally. Awesome, Dan. So we will put links to TSS, to EnduraIQ, course, and just your website in general, and Pella Performance. This is awesome. And TSS. And TSS. Amazing. Yeah, cool. All right. Thanks, Dan. Awesome. Thanks, Vicky. See you. Bye.

01:02:22
Alrighty, hopefully you enjoyed that. I did forget to mention in the intro that of course Dan is also the podcast host for Pillar Performance, which is an awesome podcast if you haven't already come across it. I'll also put a link to that in the show notes. And next podcast, actually, I speak to Marco Altini, who's also been on the show about his recent transition into right fuel, right time for his latest sporting Endeavour, which is a 100k race in Italy. I think you'll love that as well.

01:02:51
You can catch me over on Instagram at threads and X @mikkiwilliden Facebook @mikkiwillidennutrition or head to my website, mikkiwilliden.com and book a one on one call with me. All right guys, you have the best week. See you later.