00:00
Brandon, how are you? I'm doing exceptional to be honest with you. This year has been immensely successful so far. last few months, I know it's been, it's actually been since 2024 since we last caught up. So every year I sit down at the end of the year and I really do a big reflection on where I want to go as a person, as a coach, educator, whatever it may be.

00:20
And this past year, I actually really pulled back. stopped doing a private mentorship that I was doing with other coaches themselves. And I've really just went all in on one-on-one coaching, which is my bread and butter. honestly, everything I do in life, whether it be studying or it be looking to research or it be going to mentorships or I'm actually traveling out, I have a 12-hour road trip in about two weeks to Texas because I'm going to be seeing the guys from SNA. So I'm going to see Eric Helms in person. I'm going see Clint. You know what mean? I'm going to see all these guys in person.

00:47
very excited to be able to meet them. Everything I do is essentially just to become a better coach. And I've had a lot of very influential mentors in my life that have really taken it to a different level. They've been book writers or authors, or they have been group coaching and biggest, they have very large platforms. And at one point I thought that's just what I wanted. But honestly, I just really like being in the trenches. it really, you know, we have conversations obviously offline where, you know, I'm able to interpret research quite well, but I only do that. And I only have this passion and I only have this memory.

01:16
for these things because I apply them in practice. And that's really a driving force. And I've really just stopped fighting that and just realized, dude, I'm just going to go all in, work with people one-on-one. I understand that it's not as scalable as group coaching, whereas writing something, whereas doing a mentorship where I can do it in a group scenario. But I have to be able to be truly fulfilled with what I'm doing. And I truly just like being a problem solver and really working with people one-on-one and working with a wide demographic of individuals and solving problems and having them come to me after multiple coaches.

01:41
have not been able to help them get to where they want to be. it's immensely gratifying as well as fulfilling to be able to be that person that they go to, that they count on, that can really get them to that next level physically, mentally, spiritually. Also from a health perspective, really be able to really do things in a multifaceted capacity where it's not just physique enhancement. Like, yes, I am a body composition coach. I am big into transformations, but I want you to up-level your metabolic health. I want you to increase your mental resilience. There are so many other aspects.

02:09
I always have these conversations with clients and it's like, the only thing you got out of this process of transforming yourself, or the only thing you ever get out of the gym is a physical transformation, you've done yourself a disservice because there's so much mental, spiritual growth that can come from this process. Last couple of months have been immensely very successful and I'm in a very good place. So I'm thankful to God for that. I'm so happy to hear that, Brandon. And it really is reflected in all of the content that you put out and not just your...

02:36
um, your podcast, Chasing Clarity, which is really, since you've sort of taken, taken the sort of, um, the reins of that, it's really been, I mean, you've had some excellent people on it, some real sort of thought leaders. But what I also love about it is that you don't necessarily just sit back and listen to what they're saying about you. You, I don't, don't think challenge is the right word, but you question and you just want to know more and understand better. But you're also very good at very respectfully saying, you know, this is not my experience.

03:05
or, you know, this is what I see, which might differ from, you know, your own experience as well. 100 % I have an immense amount of respect for researchers or for even like theorists. So, for instance, I just had Lyle McDonald on and yes, he's published a few times, but I wouldn't really I don't think he would consider himself a researcher per se. I think he would say he's a training and nutrition theorist. Like when I've had conversations with him off air, that's what he said. And so he is someone that comprehensively looks at research and information and really disseminates it.

03:34
he's not trying to work with people one on one. So oftentimes, I try to add or contribute to the conversation because I understand how tough it is to interpret research, especially from a lay person perspective. so I am the one working with, I've worked with well over a thousand people at this point. I understand the issues that people have with interpreting research and also really being able to decipher what is good information, what's bad information, what's misinformation, what's diff information. I try to interject respectively when I

04:03
a researcher on or I have someone that's very highly intellectual. And I just try to break it down a little bit in a simpler manner. understand what they're going through in terms of the physiology. can run with them in those types of capacities. But I always try to remind myself, where were you at 15 years ago when you were personal training? I was around myself 15 years ago when you were in the gym, one-on-one on the gym floor, explaining these concepts to clients, what were their bottlenecks in terms of interpretation and understanding?

04:28
And they might not know the crop cycle. They might not know the steps of lipolysis, but if I can break this down and really maybe interject some things and say, all right, well, this is my, can I recap this? Or sometimes when I'm going through research, like I'm going on a podcast with a researcher, for instance, I just had a Martin Raffalo on, which is actually a promoter near your area. And he had done a great systematic review and meta-analysis on sex differences in muscle hypertrophy. And so I kept recapping things because Martin's immensely intelligent.

04:56
And so I didn't want anyone to lose what he was actually saying between absolute increases in muscle mass and relative increases and the differential, the differentiation between the two. So I would just interject more of a lay person's perspective on these things. So I find that to be really beneficial to my audience. And I really do. I always say this, I've said this since day one of the, you know, I'm on absolutely 160 at this point, but since day one, I've said, I've always want to bridge the gap between research and information and practical application. Cause I only dive into these studies. only look into this research. Yes. I'm intellectually curious.

05:24
But really do this because I'm trying to solve problems. I'm trying to really be able to provide answers with a great degree of veracity behind my statements, but also with an evidence-based or evidence-informed perspective. When a client has a question and they've been so confused by all the garbage they're seeing online. Yeah, no, and I love that. And what I really always appreciate of you, Brandon, is that, you try to break it down so the general audience can understand it, but you also are...

05:50
mindful that there are people out there who really do want to understand the science a little bit better. So you don't shy away from using those science terms or from trying to up level the listener and, being able to understand it more. Cause I think too often people make blanket statements almost not to dumb it down, but because they're too afraid of the nuance that sort of comes from really diving a little bit deeper, whereas you sort of take that challenge. Absolutely. think I try to thread a line. Essentially I'm trying to kind of walk a tight rope between

06:20
I always think think coach and speak client, but at the same time I do have some high level clients. And so they are other I work with other coaches. I interact with many people that are on a high level themselves. So I don't want to insult their intelligence by any means. So often I'm not going to baby feed them. You know what mean? I'm not going to drip feed them this information. What I'm going to do is I'm going to explain it with the complexity and respect the topic and make it no simpler than it needs to be or then it should be, you know, like the Einstein quote. However, I'm going to go back and kind of like clean up my edges and say, all right, this is what I meant by that. So it's kind of like

06:49
delivering to both audience say, listen, if you are 10 years into this and you are coach yourself, you're a fitness professional, you have a nutrition degree or whatever, maybe you've been through certifications, I'm gonna speak at your level and then I'm gonna clean things up on the back end to make sure that everyone in my audience, including general population, lifestyle clients, people that don't have a background and they shouldn't need to have an education just to understand a podcast. So I really try to appeal to a large body of large and broad audience because I've worked with people all the way

07:18
to the level of the Olympia in terms of men's physique pros. worked with many IFBB professionals, both women and men. And then I also have lifestyle clients that are business professionals. hardly have time to sleep, let alone to understand science. it's like, I'm trying to cater to a lot of different people. And a lot of times people have told me, and I get this feedback from mentors where they're like, listen, you need to pick a niche, you need to pick a target demographic. I do sometimes I'm at odds with that. But at the same time, I know that I've been able to learn so much because I've learned from so many people I've worked with.

07:47
terms of the clientele that I work with. such a wide demographic. And then also, I really like the fact that I have a large skill set because of that experience working with such a wide demographic. get so many questions fielded me. It's funny. My partner, Jean, is actually the COO of a coaching company on her own right. And she's a great coach. And when I tell her some of the questions I get, sometimes I'll read them out. She's just like, I've never heard anyone get these type of questions, but it's because I attract a much different audience than she does. She has a very

08:13
It's a very niche demographic that she has, whereas I've worked with everyone you could think of. it keeps me on my toes to say the least. Oh, for sure. And I appreciate that because I've been told many times in my career that I'd be more successful if I just sort of really dialed in one particular audience and spoke to that audience. But I personally would be not stimulated by it and I wouldn't be interested enough to do that. So that's why I've a little bit like you, although I think you're a bit smarter than I am, have to go, you know, I like to, I'm

08:42
curious. And so I go and learn stuff and I have posts which might seem sort of random if you're a 40 year old, you know, perimenopausal woman looking for fat loss advice. And I'm over here talking about sulforaphane and this, you know, other sort of compounds that help us detoxify. that's the thing that fills my cup. So if your cup is filled, then you're going to be a better coach and mentor to other people. And Brandon, one of the things I

09:08
I'm super excited to talk to you about today, like a particular topic is of course, spot reduction. was just all the rage in the magazines, probably like in the eighties, in the nineties, like when I was a young, a youngster, I think I was about 13, I did something called Rosemary Connolly's hip and thigh diet. So it was a particular diet. I dieted with my mum, it's how we bonded as we grew up. I would never suggest any mother and daughter do this now.

09:37
But it was fine for us. And it was essentially a diet that was geared towards clearly losing weight on woman's problem areas, hip and thigh. And then of course, as I grew and I got interested in the area and studied, et cetera, I realized that spot reduction was a myth, as I understood it. Of course, you blew that out of the water last year on your podcast when you were like, actually, spot reduction is a thing.

10:07
And I get these questions a lot about how do I particularly lose fat on my stomach? What I never seem to lose it on my butt. Um, so can we sort of kick off with first in your words, like what exactly is spot reduction and why traditionally after the likes of the Rosemary Connelly's the eighties, have we thought spot reduction is a myth? All right. So if you were, say you're out in the audience, I encourage you to do this. If you're going to look up spot reduction,

10:36
most sources, you do it on Google, and you're going to see that they're going to say that this is a theory that you can target and lose fat in a specific area of your body through exercise. And it's going be very plain like that. Targeted fat loss through exercise. However, how I define spot reduction, it's a little bit different. And it's based on what the most recent data indicates. So I believe a better interpretation or a better definition of spot reduction in terms of spot reduction that can actually occur would be most appropriately defined as the potential to lose body fat in specific areas by combining

11:06
resistance training for that specific area with cardio after it. And we'll get into mechanisms later on. But really, when it comes down to it, resistance training would help mobilize fat from that target area and then increase blood flow to that region so that we can take stored fat from that region and break it down into free fatty acids, which can then be transported into the mitochondria of a muscle cell, a fat cell or a muscle cell, a liver cell, a heart cell, one of those cells that can actually burn fat for energy and will be burned off for energy during cardio.

11:35
I go back to your other secondary question, is, why has this been traditionally considered a myth? It's because, to be honest with you, many of early studies on this topic did not find that spot reduction occurred. However, there are considerable limitations in many of those studies. This is a big thing that I have because I do work in the trenches. I'm not that person just reading the abstract. I'm going through the entire study, the methodology. I'm going through a limitation section, all these things.

11:59
when we really look at a lot of those early studies, because we have research dating back to, I believe, 1965 on this topic. So we're talking 60 years of research at this point. And so there's a large body of evidence. However, many of those early studies have only tested one type of exercise. So they would test things like just doing sit-ups or doing an activity with an arm to compare it to the inactive arm. And, you know, a really prominent study, the first study that actually found that spot reduction didn't exist, or the first one to say that it was a myth,

12:29
was actually looking at the dominant arm of tennis players. And in these case, they didn't find that spot reduction to occur, yet I wouldn't expect it to. And so although I'm more open to the concept of spot reduction based on the new data that's come out, I don't believe, and I'm going to say this very upfront since the beginning, I don't believe that you're going to sit up your way to a slimmer stomach and leaner midsection. So I want people to realize it's multimodal. The second limitation is in many of these studies and many of these study designs,

12:57
They've mobilized fat, but they didn't follow up with lower intensity exercise to oxidize it. So many of the studies that you look at that have disproven, quote unquote, body fat, and that's really not what research does. Research doesn't prove anything, to be honest. It puts us in a better direction, and sometimes it disproves things, but at the same time, it's really just giving us better hints and pointing us in the direction of a better interpretation of a topic. And so many of the early studies looked at certain protocols by themselves.

13:23
So you can look at some of earlier data, even from the early 2000s, and they would do things like high rep ab work or leg work. And it didn't lead to spot reduction. And that was due to the fact that, in my opinion, and based on some of the interpretation later on, is that they mobilize fat from that area, but they didn't do another activity to burn it off. The other thing, you know, making you and I really relate on this, because we have a very, I don't want to say nutrition bias perspective, but we come from it, we're both nutritionists.

13:49
always going look at nutrition first. really, when it comes to fat loss, that is the biggest lever that we can pull. And a major limitation that is in the majority of studies is that, or at least the majority of studies that has not seen spot reduction, is there's no dietary control. So this confounds the results. As we know that many people will engage in what's referred to as compensatory eating when they enter a training intervention. So in many cases, this could cause the subjects in these studies to go into a calorie surplus, which would negate their ability to lose fat, regardless of what type of training they're doing.

14:18
So think that if someone is going to achieve spot reduction, they're going to need to combine resistance training for that area that they're looking to target with target. And then they have to combine it with cardio to burn the fat that's been liberated. And then there will also have to keep their diet dialed in to ensure they maintain a calorie deficit. And that's why a lot of the information that's been put out, we don't see spot reduction or this study disproved, you know, the concept of spot reduction. If you really were to go through the methodology, you would see glaring holes. just think a lot of times people will take

14:45
what's in an abstract or they'll take something that, you know, a popular media source will post something and people run with that information without really digging in further. Yeah. And I guess they're not understanding the process, the way that you've just sort of outlined for, you know, in order to see changes, it's not just doing a million bicep curls or tricep or tricep pushdowns or whatever to get rid of your bingo wings. It's actually the, it's the exercise itself.

15:15
plus the cardio or the aerobic work to utilize the fuel that's been liberated. But then also it's the diet to make sure you're not eating back the fuel that you've just sort of lost. Yeah, okay. So it's interesting, isn't it? Because I was thinking about what you said with the tennis player. Like you wouldn't expect a tennis player to have a more toned dominant arm compared to the other arm. Is that what you said?

15:45
Yes. One of the earliest studies, I believe it was a study in 1971, this was the first study. Just to be honest with you, it's funny because we often see things come and go in this industry. We could say this about ketogenic diets. We could say this about protein intake. could say there's been areas where fat is good and then fat is bad. There's a lot of dichotomy within this industry. see things swing, the pendulum essentially swings from side to side. What's interesting, if you go back to the first two studies on spot reduction, first study is in 1965, second study is in 1968, I believe.

16:14
Both of them actually found spot reduction to occur. However, in 1971, they had a tennis player study. And essentially what they did was they took tennis players and they analyzed the circumference and the thickness of the sub-Q fat on their dominant serving arm and then their non-dominant arm. So the arm that they were using most frequently in their sessions. And their initial hypothesis was that the active arm would have less body fat than the inactive arm. However, what they actually found was there wasn't a difference in actually sub-Q body fat or sub-Q fat between the arms.

16:43
they did find was the serving arm, the dominant arm that was actually being used was more muscular. And so this was like the first study to quote unquote, debunk the idea that using a muscle directly causes fat loss in that area. However, let's think about the intervention. There was no intervention. This was observational. First and foremost, they were looking at tennis players that were already using these things. We have no dietary intervention. have absolutely no other exercise intervention. So was just, hey, you play, you know, you're a tennis player.

17:12
is what you do a day to day. Now we're going to look observationally to see your right arm versus your left arm, your dominant arm versus your non-dominant arm. There's no intervention. I think that that kind of is, you know, we have to think about 50 years ago. Obviously research methodology was different, but I think that that really spurred the belief that spot reduction did not occur. It wasn't possible. And here's my whole thing. I understand, I debunk a lot of this, whether it be on podcasts or through content, and I don't want anyone to be essentially fooled into thinking things that

17:42
may be possible that they aren't. So that's why I had a 10-year career in supplement industry. You rarely, rarely will ever hear me talk about supplements because most of them don't do anything, to be quite frank with you. However, I always like to keep an open mind to things. Not so open that my brain is going to fall out, but open enough to say, if there is an intervention that done correctly can improve the outcomes for my clients, I have to be open to it. And I'm always open to new research, new information, and changing my beliefs. And I'll tell you, if we go back just a few years ago,

18:09
I would have told you spot reduction didn't exist. This was a question that I received often, but when clients asked me, I told them that. So someone out here might have worked with me five, 10 years ago. I told you that spot reduction didn't occur because at that time, the data that I was aware of did not indicate that. However, this interest in this topic, I put out a podcast last year and it really spurred from a specific client, his name's Grant, and he was getting ready for his 50th birthday. And now Grant had established, he has a wellness company in Canada, a very large wellness company, and he was in very good shape.

18:39
up until his early thirties and really for about 15 years span, he just poured everything in his life into this business to build it up to the greatest capacity possible. And I can relate to that, you know, running my own business myself. I can relate to that because I work with so many other people, but really he sacrificed his health. He sacrificed his fitness in the process of building a business. And so there were components about his physique that he was uncomfortable with. He had a little bit of a body image issue and specifically his lower back fat. And so he had come to me and

19:06
Over the course of about a week or two or one or two check-ins, essentially, had brought up the fact, he brought up one time and just said, hey, you know, I really don't like this unsightly like fat in my low back. And then, you know, the next week he kind of like really expressed himself. said, listen, when I was younger, I didn't have this. This actually makes me really self-conscious. I don't want to take off my shirt. I'm getting in really good shape from the front. And we were planning on doing a photo shoot. So I said, listen, Grant, I'm going to dive back into research on everything I could think of, because I was already using what I refer to as stubborn fat protocols with him.

19:35
it wasn't getting to the point. And now we're talking about Yohim, we're talking about different interval training, things like that. And so I dug back into things. And I also have, have a huge database on client case files. Whenever I've had a problem, I put the interventions that I utilize, whether that be supplementation, dietary, that could be the lab work analysis, the specific blood tests that I pulled with them, all these things. So I always have references that I can go back to. And I dug into everything I could on this topic. And I realized, wow, if I am to resistant train,

20:01
and actually get some high intensity exercise into that low back region. So specifically, I would have him do body weight back extensions to warm up. I'd have him do weighted back extensions and then go right to the cardio machine. also utilized the Ohimbian in a fasted state about an hour prior to that. it was in the system. It's binding those alpha adrenergic receptors. So it's going to put the brake on the brake to fat loss. So alpha receptors are essentially inhibitory receptors, which don't allow fat to be liberated from fat tissue.

20:29
And so we were using all these different things, but I was making sure that he was doing that in the morning fasted. And then also if he trained his abs or he trained his low back in a session itself, and I obviously program all of the sessions, so I'll know those days he was going to do cardio immediately after. So throughout that and Mickey, I would love to be able to send you a post on his actual transformation because it's immense. We got him into the best shape of his life and he was 50 for that photo shoot and he looks absolutely incredible. And here's the thing, if you were just look at his after photos, you would say, oh, this guy doesn't have a problem with low back fat.

20:59
or with love handles. However, I have this before picture included in that transformation. it is honestly, I don't want to say astonishing, it's to the level of it's surprising how much back fat that he lost. But it was through utilizing a very strategic approach. I looked at the research, I dug into things, I trialed it with him. And we also did it for an extended period of time and he was already in a calorie deficit. So these are all things we have to think about a priority principle essentially. So calorie deficit first, we were ready, resistance training, we were utilizing cardio, but it wasn't in the timing, the specific

21:29
order that that would induce or potentially induce spire reduction. That's really why I got spurred to do this. I've used this with many other clients. I've used it on myself when I did a photo shoot prep this past fall. And so I've seen it work for myself. It's not to say that every single person it's going to be applicable to, but it is possible. So we have to stop saying this doesn't exist when there is literature that disputes that. And are there any sex based differences that you've come across, Brandon? So I haven't seen any specific sex based differences.

21:57
between the two in terms of the research that we actually have on spot reduction. If we look at the biggest difference between men and women, it would actually be essentially in how they distribute body fat itself. if we're look at the research, there's two papers that we'll go through at some point in this podcast. One was done on women and one was done on men, and we see it in both of them. However, the main difference in how fat is stored does come down to sex differences and body fat distribution.

22:24
women and men distribute their body fat differently, meaning they tend to store and carry fat in different regions of their body. So if we look at women, females have what's referred to as a gynoid body fat pattern. And so that's also referred to as the pear-shaped distribution pattern, where they store more of their fat in their lower body, including their hips, their thighs, and their glutes. And since women preferentially store fat in their hips, thighs, and glutes, the fat that they store in these areas is subcutaneous fat.

22:50
which is advantageous from a metabolic health perspective as gaining sub-Q fat rather than visceral fat is why women are able to maintain better metabolic health at the same or even higher body fat percentages than men. So that's the upside for you ladies out there. However, there is a drawback. I always say this for every gimme there's gotcha. And so the drawback of women's body fat distribution pattern and their propensity or higher likelihood for adding sub-Q fat is that women tend to have a greater density and amount of alpha receptors, which we were just talking about.

23:17
in their lower bodies, which are the type of adrenergic receptor that puts the brake on my policies. So these alpha receptors in the lower body make it harder to mobilize fat out of, and these areas also receive less blood flow. So this is why many women, know, I've worked with hundreds of women that have reported this back to me, but you can see this on anywhere you go, you'll notice that women often struggle with stubborn fat in these areas, and they find it very difficult to lose fat from their hips, thighs, and glutes. If you actually look at how a woman loses fat, she'll often get like ripped in the abs, she'll get ripped in the delts and the arms,

23:47
but it's her lower body that's kind of sluggish or it's dragging behind in terms of that loss process. And so one of the primary reasons as to why women store more of their fat in these regions is due to estrogen, as estrogen promotes fat deposition in subcutaneous regions rather than in visceral regions. So there's both protective mechanisms of estradiol's influence on fat deposition because it's keeping it out of the visceral. And so it's keeping it from really accumulating causing insulin resistance, metabolic health issues, metabolic syndrome. Now,

24:16
We see this kind of fat pattern, and I want to really touch on this specifically because I work with women of all different ages. We usually see this in women until they reach menopause, which is when their body fat distribution pattern changes and we start seeing females store more fat essentially around the midsection like males do. And this is mostly due to the decline in estradiol that occurs during menopause, which is why when you actually look at premenopausal women versus or compared to post-menopausal women, they generally will have different trouble or start in fat areas that they're looking to lose. Now, if we look at men on the other hand,

24:45
Men store fat in an Android body fat pattern, which is also referred to as that apple shape, because we typically store fat essentially around the trunk region, which includes our stomach and our low back. And since men store fat centrally around the gut and the organs, we tend to gain more visceral fat when gaining an excess of menopat, which is associated with high rates of insulin resistance, cardiovascular disease. And that's actually, if we look at it from a metabolic health perspective and an overview perspective, if you actually look at the indices.

25:10
cardiovascular disease, metabolic syndrome, type 2 diabetes, insulin resistance. We see that men are far more predisposed to these issues for the majority of our lives because of this body fat pattern, except when women get to post-menopausal. That's when it equals out essentially. so the biggest difference between these two is women will have more of that sub-Q fat, which has more alpha receptors. It's harder to tap into. However, it's less metabolically deleterious. However,

25:36
Visceral fat has far better blood flow, so it's easier to lose fat from than subcutaneous fat. So that's the upside. So really when it comes down to it, we have to realize that there are sex differences and that this really is the influence of ovarian sex hormones versus say your androgens. But really in totality, it's going to be women tend to store more subcutaneous fat than men, which is more metabolically healthy fat to gain, but it's also harder to lose and it's really hard to liberate and tap into.

25:59
Whereas men are going to gain more visceral fat, which is more deleterious to our health, but it's also easier that to liberate and to lose if you do things right from a nutrition training, cardio and activity perspective. So those are the broad based differences. When we were, when I actually looked at you at some of this question, I didn't see specific differences between both sexes in terms of their outcomes, but they were also testing different areas. So for instance, you know, in the female study, we're looking at upper body and lower body fat, actual fat loss in terms of

26:28
spot reduction. And so in the upper body group, they lost more in their upper body, the lower body group that trained their lower body, and then the Dicardia lost more in their lower body. Men in the male study, it was only in their trunk region. It was only in their bit section. And so at this point, I think that we need a lot more data to really differentiate whether there are specific sex differences in spot reduction, but I do know that there are sex differences in stubborn fat. And so that would be another thing or another factor to take into consideration.

26:56
Yeah, nice one, Brandon. And those alpha receptors that you mentioned in the stubborn fat areas, did they diminish postmenopause as well? So do we lose those receptors? Or is the activity less like what's the go there? Because obviously estrogen is, not obviously, but I imagine estrogen is related to those alpha receptors.

27:19
Your density of alpha and beta receptors are based on the region in which your body, so I've never seen data that has indicated that they actually change over the life course. have seen some information where obesity, actually women that get into obese states, which actually, if you were to look at some with morbid obesity, I know we don't use that term, the same class 3 obesity, a lot of women, they will actually change their body fat distribution pattern.

27:43
doesn't mean that they automatically lose fat in their lower body and then gain it in their upper body, but what we'll see is they start getting more central adiposity, you start increasing visceral fat. And that's really due to the fact that if their lower body has already, say, hit its maximum fat threshold, essentially, or they're topped out, they're going to other areas to store body fat. in that case, there are women... So if we look at alpha receptors, maybe I should explain this. So

28:07
Let's go through alpha and beta receptors first so the audience understands, and then I can give you some indications as to some of other research. So we have two different types of adrenergic receptors, and these are receptors that are found all around the body. They're in our fat tissue. They're in our heart. They're in our cellular muscle. They're in our brain. And there's multiple types of these, but the main ones are the beta two and the alpha two adrenergic receptors. And these are the two fats. There are two types of adrenal receptors that are found in fat cells.

28:33
So when it comes down to it, have two categories. We have beta receptors, which are the stimulatory receptors, meaning when they get binded to and activated, they increase lipolysis and thermogenesis. And essentially what they do is they allow for fatty acids to be mobilized out of fat cells to be burned off for energy. Then on the other hand, and this is what we've been referring to, are the alpha receptors. So I want you to think about the alpha receptors as the brake on the gas. So it's putting a brake on lipolysis. And really what alpha receptors are, are they're inhibitory, meaning when alpha two receptors are stimulated and activated, they act in an inhibitory manner.

29:03
where they limit lipolysis and they blunt the mobilization of fatty acids out of the fat cell. So if you can't get fat out of a fat cell, you can't go through the first process to get into the fat loss physiology. really what we have is we have a three-step process. We have lipolysis, which is getting fat out of a fat cell. So fat, when you have sword fat, it's in the form of a triglyceride. Well, the first step to actually burning fat for energy is that you need to...

29:25
go through lipolysis, which is essentially the process of mobilizing fatty acids out of a fat cell. But that fat is actually stored as a triglyceride. So we have to break that triglyceride down into free fatty acids and glycerol backbone. Once that's out of a fat cell, we need to go through transportation. And transportation is a process which necessitates blood flow to carry those free fatty acids into a cell where could get burned. So that could be a muscle cell, a liver cell, heart cell. But in the case of exercise, we're going to the muscle cell. then we have got it transported in there.

29:54
then we go through oxidation. But oxidation only takes place if the blood flow is sufficient enough to actually bring those free fatty acids into the mitochondria, the middle of the cell, and to burn them all for energy. And so, if you have a high density, a high amount of alpha receptors in a specific region, like women have a much higher propensity or a density of alpha receptors as compared to beta receptors in their lower body, meaning that it's harder to get that first step of the glycolytic process done. It's harder to get the sort of fat out of those fat cells and that adipose tissue.

30:24
actually burned off for energy. Now, there is some research that indicates, now, if we look at the broadbody, if we look at normal weight limit, we're going to see that they're going to have far more alpha receptors in their lower body as compared to their upper body. And men are going to have more alpha receptors in their abdomen than they are in their lower body. And this is why we see these differential fat patterns, especially not only fat patterns from a visceral and subcutaneous fat perspective, but we also see fat loss being more difficult in different regions. for instance, a woman will get lean from the top, from the top down, she'll get very lean delts, lean arms, lean stomach, she'll have a six pack.

30:54
at a much higher body fat percentage than a man will. And a man will lose fat from his legs will be shredded, his calves, his arms, his forearms. But then we get down to like the chest fat and then also the low back and the abs. And men will have to get very, very lean into a low body fat percentage to have a fully defined midsection, whereas a woman can have much higher body fat than them and have a full six pack. So in normal weight individuals, we're going to see men higher density of alpha receptors in the abdomen and women higher density of alpha receptors

31:22
in the lower body. However, when we look in the case of obesity, there is some research that indicates that women will actually increase the amount of alpha receptors in their abdomen. So now they're going to get stubborn fat in their midsection, but it's only in extenuating circumstances of extreme obesity. And so really when it comes down to it, we're seeing not only men and women store body fat differently due to the influence of different hormones. For instance, estradiol is going to preferentially deposit body fat in the lower body, whereas testosterone actually has an influence on storing if it's in excess.

31:52
and storing viscerally. And so we see that differentiation in hormones, but also those alpha receptors and those beta receptors. really what we want is to increase the amount of beta receptors, decrease the amount of alpha receptors, or inhibit the amount of alpha receptors, or to engage in modalities which are going to put us in a better position. a consistent calorie deficit, maybe certain supplementation, certain exercise interventions to ensure that we're able to go through that full lipolytic process of lipolysis, aka mobilization.

32:20
transport and then oxidation because you have to burn the fat and then also maintain that deficit so that it doesn't get restored, which is the process of re-esophage, re-esophagation, where you essentially take free fatty acids. You didn't burn them. They're floating in the bloodstream. get put right back into a fat cell, turn back into a triglyceride and they're right back into your fat deposits. Oh, interesting. So, so I have a question and this is not on my piece of paper that I sent through to you. like I don't need to lose weight. However, I have bingo wings like

32:48
I've got my biceps are fine, my triceps. I'm like, I could really do with some extra definition, says me. mean, who actually cares? But it is something I think about. Can someone who is otherwise lean sort of across the board, target particular areas and make progress the way that you're describing? Because of course, the last thing that I really need is a calorie deficit. do all those other pieces of the puzzle, can I manipulate them to see results, Brandon?

33:18
I think you've manipulated to a certain degree. Now, will I say that you will induce spot reduction in that area without a calorie deficit? I wouldn't say that. What I will say is that you could, quote unquote, tone that area. And I know that for us, we don't believe in that term, but I think it's important for the audience to just hear that and just realize toning is the process of increasing muscle. So what we can do, and if we just think about this logically, and I've seen this with so many women that they have trouble areas in their arms and they don't train them or they don't train them sufficiently well.

33:45
And so it would really be the process of stimulating that muscle growth or stimulating that area. so utilizing different positions in terms of your actual enthronaments or in terms of your biomechanics. I would do push-downs. I would do an overhead tricep extension. would hit every single tricep is three different muscles.

34:03
So I would suggest doing that and then potentially doing cardio after, but keep in mind, if you're not in deficit, I'm not saying that you would have to go into a drastic deficit. This isn't talking about massive calorie restriction, but if you were to put yourself in a slight deficit, you would be in the position where you're a limited individual, but your primary form of training, and I just know this from having so many conversations with you, it wasn't resistant training. So you're probably still in the phase where you could get muscle growth while losing body fat. Now it couldn't be targeted to that area. So essentially what we could do is run a minor calorie deficit.

34:32
and put you in a position where you could still undergo what's called body recomposition. So the simultaneous increase in body or in lean mass with the decrease in body fat. And if we look, there's a meta regression by Murphy and colleagues. It's actually at a Chris Kohler's lab. And I believe it's 2021 study. And they found that up to a 500 calorie deficit, you can increase gains in lean mass. Now, after that 500 calorie deficit, you will negate that. And so you will essentially just be able to eat. If everything's perfect, you will maintain lean mass. I don't want to say it's that hard to cut off, but that's essentially what the meta regression showed.

35:02
you in 100 or 200 calorie deficit. So you're losing less than 0.5 pounds or a half a pound a week. And we're also to increase the stimulus on your triceps. Then we're also to include some post-workout cardio right after training those triceps. And we increase the frequency on that. So there's more stimulation. There's more sufficient stimulation through actually having better exercise selection. So now you're hitting every single portion of the triceps. And then we also include cardio after. And for someone like yourself, potentially we would do some utilization of caffeine.

35:30
is going to help with beta receptors. It's going to activate those beta receptors because it's going to increase catecholamine release and catecholamines are the neurotransmitters or hormones that actually bind to these alpha and beta receptors. And then we can also put in conjunction with yohimbine, which would actually block that it's an alpha-Q antagonist. So it binds that alpha receptor and blocks it from catecholamine or it inhibits catecholamines from binding and activating those receptors. now I've put essentially

35:58
mechanism, I've put caffeine in system, which has increased your ability to accelerate that loss. So you're getting more lipolysis in that region. Then I've also put a brake on the brake essentially. So I've inhibited the inhibitor by blocking the alpha receptor. So now you're not getting as much block, block eight essentially on that lipolysis. So yeah, I think it is possible. think that it has to be, we would have to go about it very specifically. And I love hearing how your brain sort of works through that problem. I wonder as well, Brandon, like if I think about

36:26
calorie deficit side of things, or even like macro distribution. I'm not sure how much weight you put on these studies, but I quite like them, the protein overfeeding studies that showed that you could eat sufficient calories, yet not gain body fat if those calories were coming from protein. if you were working with someone who had, say, less body fat, but just problem areas, like, I'm interested to hear what you think about like,

36:51
maybe a very slight calorie deficit, but actually just really like dialing up that protein and changing that distribution of nutrients. Would that make a difference? Let's take it from this context. If I was to put someone in very mild calorie deficit and then I was trying to manipulate, this is what I would call macronutrient manipulation. And what I would do is I would increase the thermoconfactive feeding to get another vector to increase calorie expenditure. So say, for instance, I'm going give you a hypothetical, but this is how my brain works. I'm constantly going over client case studies. So I'm going do it with you right now.

37:20
So, you're eating, you come to me, your maintenance calories are 2,000, which I know we're probably quite under what you actually eat because you're a very active individual. Well, let's just say 2,000 for easy math. And then I decide, all right, Mickey, we're going to go into a 5 % deficit on paper. So, I'm going to put you down to 1,900 calories you're going to dial this in. However, I'm going increase your protein intake. So, we're going to go back to a study in 2005 by Weigel. And so, what Weigel did was it was calorie-equated, it was isochloric. They put them in different interventions and they took

37:47
initially, they had them, I think, eight weeks and they were at 15 % protein, and then they put them up to 30 % protein. And within that, they had a spontaneous calorie deficit of 441 calories. People didn't even report hunger. So we're not going to do that, but I'm going to increase your protein quite substantially. So we're going to get more of a hunger blunting effect. You're going to have better appetite management. You're going have better satiety. I'm also going to get an increase in thermic effect feeding. And then from there, I'm also going to manipulate the rest of your food choices to ensure that you have

38:14
more whole foods that have a higher thermic effect. So I'm going to look at all whole foods. And if we look at a study from 2010 by Barr, they found that when comparing, and this was in a sandwich, so it's a little bit different, but it was whole grain and whole grain bread and whole cheese or cheddar cheese. When they compared that, which was a whole food meal, quote unquote, versus a processed food meal, which was white bread and it looked like Velveeta cheese, to be honest with you. So I don't know what it was, but it was like sliced cheese, American cheese. There was about a 10 % difference. the whole food meal increased thermic effect if eaten by

38:44
50 % over. So I believe that the whole food meal was like 19.4 % and the processed meal was like 10.4 % and the thermoconfective feeding. Now we always think about the thermoconfective feeding and I say this as well, it's 10%. We just said the blanket amount. But if you actually look at people with a high protein diet and a lot of whole foods, we can actually increase that to about 15 to 20%. Then I'm going to dial in other things. So I'm going make sure that you have a very consistent meal pattern because there's multiple studies that have looked at meal consistency in terms of timing. the pattern and you get on a good circadian rhythm where you're eating early.

39:13
and you're making sure that you stop before light or before darkness and things of that sort, we actually see an increase in insulin sensitivity and also an increase in thermocontactive feeding when you have very consistent meal timings as compared to erratic meal timings. Then on top of that, I'm going take your fat sources. Instead of having oils or instead of having saturated fat, which actually coincidentally enough, saturated fat is easier to store in body fat and it's also harder to liberate from body fat. But if you look at polyunsaturated fats and also monunsaturated fats, easier to into a fat cell.

39:41
less easy, so more difficult to get into that cell and easier to liberate from that cell. Then I'm going to switch out your fat sources. I'm going to put you on whole nuts. The reason for that is that, actually, when you look at the dietary net, or the net metabolizing energy from whole nuts, especially almonds, we go from having 100 % of absorbability, because fats have about a thermocompact feeding of 0 to 3%. If you look at research on the actual digestibility of almonds, raw almonds, you lose about 30 32 % of the calories from that fibrous matrix in the actual outside of the almonds. I'm going to whole switch everything.

40:09
Now I'm probably taking you, and this is, I'm not going be able to do the math right off here. Maybe I've taken you from a hundred calorie deficit, but I've increased so many other energy expenditure aspects of your intake that now you're at a 250 or 300 calorie deficit. So now you haven't eaten less. You're actually eating the same amount. You're probably eating more food volume because I have a lot of low energy, energy-density foods. And then I've combined it with the training manipulations and things that that's where I do think that the higher protein intake will put you in a more advantageous position. for instance, there's just a

40:38
meta-regression on or meta-analysis and systematic review on protein intake during fat loss or essentially during dietary energy restriction. It's by Martin Ruffalo, who I just had on, Dr. Eric Helms, which is a friend of both of ours, and Dr. Eric Trexler. And they found that after about 3.2 grams or 3.3 grams per kilogram of fat-free mass per day is where we see even in the deficit, a higher likelihood, now this is not saying guarantee, but a higher likelihood of gaining lean mass during an energy deficit. So we can put you in the best position to succeed possible. So that is something that I've utilized with many clients.

41:07
I'm trying to pull every lever to get them into deficit without them realizing they're in a deficit. So, I always have this expression. And we've had a podcast on energy flux. And I say, I want you to eat more and move more. Eat more is generally calorically. But a lot of times I'm telling people, I'm going to make you eat more, but it's going to be more low energy density foods, more polyphenol rich, micronutrient rich whole food sources, more nutrient dense food sources, more protein. I really try to use an additive model in many of my coaching scenarios.

41:36
Because I feel like, especially women, they're so used to this mindset of restriction, subtraction, that they get caught in this vicious loop of it's chronic dieting. It always has to be a large deficit. I have to lose all the sweet. When I can switch them to a mindset of abundance in addition, we're focused on improving their training performance, getting their protein intake up, adding more plant sources so that can be vegetables and fruits and really nutrient dense food sources where we're filling in all their micronutrient deficiencies. There's actually a case study by Maxwell et al. And it's on two volleyball players, I believe.

42:03
they were zinc deficient from really chronically calorie-restricting themselves. And it's something incredible. Their BMR went up like 500 to 700 calories. Now, that's not something we're going have with everyone, but they were so deficient. we look at filling in these micronutrient gaps and deficiencies, now we're getting thyroid back online. We're getting all your sex hormones back online. Zinc is really critical for testosterone synthesis and also for thyroid conversion, T4, the metabolic react of T3. So, there's so many things that we can utilize without just pulling calories. And that's why

42:30
I don't subscribe just to macros thing. Like I'm not a macro coach. I don't just tell you, hey, I'm going to take 500 calories off of, off of your intake. And these are the macros. And here you go, go off the window and macro Tetris. You're wet. I'm very specific with food sources, with training modalities, with cardio recommendations, with the supplementation we're using. I really think that going above and beyond, always say coaching goes beyond the X's and O's of just nutrition in terms of calories and macros and training in terms of sets and reps. There's a really, there's nuances that get into this. And that's where we can actually, that's why I've seen people that have

42:59
actually went through spot reduction. Whereas, you know, many people will not be able to report that, but that's because I'm dialing every single area that I can. Yeah, it's amazing, Brandon. And Cliff and I were chatting yesterday, actually, and you and he are very aligned in that sort of diet, the complete diet sort of model and really looking at micros because it's so often overlooked. And maybe it's just because there are so many people who do a weekend course and call themselves a macro coach or they do...

43:25
couple of classes in their PT and suddenly they're a nutrition coach and a personal trainer, you know? and I think they just, there's so much more to nutrition than just protein, carbs and fat and calories, often overlooked. It's not helped by the fact that you get other people who, and this is the problem, we get a lot of that information from social media and you get people with very big voices and they're like, doesn't matter what you eat, you know, as long as you're having your protein and I can eat these processed foods and we don't have to think about these other things and...

43:54
It's a world of a land of confusion in the words of Phil Collins and Genesis, I suppose. But I love that. was like my, I'm going to listen back to that prescription for my bingo wings because, and I'll report back in about 12 weeks to how long does it take? Let me know. You can check in weekly if you'd like, Mickey. I'd love to hear it from you. Yeah, I love that. I guess, how long can we expect it to take, Brandon, if we really sort of dial in, and a lot of this stuff.

44:24
I think, I mean, I you're really great at giving people broad guidelines. And I think really good starting place. But clearly you go right into the weeds with all these other things that you just mentioned. But even with the the super basic, okay, I want to spot reduce, like the fat around my stomach, for example. And it isn't sit ups, but it's that combination of specific exercises, plus

44:53
cardio. So how long can you give us guidelines as to the types of exercises? And I think I know what you're going to say, but it would be quite good just to get that as an example, plus also the length of cardio. And then how often would we do these kinds of things in a week if that was maybe not our primary focus, but you know, something that we were really interested in changing.

45:15
So I'm going give you the interpretation that I have on what how some of the structure training and that's based off the current literature that we have. And then I'm also going to give you my practical applications because really when it comes down to it, we're not in a research study. We're not in a metabolic ward. I'm working with people in the real world. So I've really had to take the information that I've been able to gather, apply it in practice, trial it. And there's been times I've made mistakes and I've done it every single day like some of these studies do. And that person, it doesn't fit their lifestyle or it doesn't comport or they don't recover well. it's like, all right, well, they didn't.

45:43
report this in the study. if I only went based off the study methodology, I wouldn't be the coach that I am today. you if we were to go based on the evidence we have in order to induce fire reduction, we would need to combine the resistance training with cardio. So we get a catacombinol release from the higher intensity exercise and we liberate fatty acids from the fat source in the region that we're targeting. Then after that, we would use a lower intensity form of exercise like steady state cardio or zone two cardio that relies on fatty acid oxidation to burn those free fatty acids off for fuel.

46:11
Practically speaking, I can tell you how I would program this for my own clients and how I do. Because, although I love research, the only reason I spent so many years and thousands of hours learning how to read and interpret research is because I'm an outcome-oriented individual and I'm a results-driven coach. So I use my research interpretation skills to develop more effective approaches for myself and then my clients so that we can follow these different interventions and we can get better results. So in order, if someone was ask me, like you very much did,

46:38
How would we induce fat reduction? What's the best way to put us in the best position to succeed? In order to the likelihood of losing body fat in a specific region, I make sure that most of my clients train the specific region they're looking to target. So if I have a client looking to lose fat from their abs, you mentioned, I'll either have them do that in a fasted state, first thing. And also, this is very specific. It's not just body weight. I have not seen body weight stuff do this.

47:03
So we may warm up with body weight, but we're actually gonna have to go to a higher intensity, which is we're loading. So it would be weighted crunches. could be weighted leg raises. It could be something, you know, using the ab machine, the crunch machine. So I'm gonna have them train their abs in either a fasted state or at the end of their workouts. And then we're gonna follow that core session up with a steady state cardio session. You wanna make sure you're training muscle groups you wish to lose fat in because by training that muscle, you're going to increase blood flow to that muscle and also increase lipolysis, which is a fat breakdown.

47:32
in the subcontainers fat next to that working muscle. After you mobilize fats from this fat tissue, it can either be burned for energy or restored in that fat tissue, which is why we want to follow this up directly by training training or direct by cardio. there isn't a lot of people will do these in like different belts. So, they say, oh, I've never seen spot reduction. I train my abs two or three times a week. Okay. Well, what do do after it? You go have a post-workout shaker meal. You're restoring the fat that you just burned. So, we need to make sure that we're actually we liberated

48:01
fatty acids from the fat cell in the abdomen. And then we're also transporting them through the blood flow that's facilitated by the resistant training itself. And then we're burning them off for energy. Now, the reason I specifically think that cardio modalities, and we can go back to the research a little bit as to how they actually initiated spot reduction and the evidence that we see. But I think that the reason why there are some interventions that just look at resistance training and they don't find spot reduction by itself. just doing, say, arm, they have some that's just bicep training, but they don't see spot reduction in that area.

48:31
is because I don't think that resistance training is enough of a stimulus to not only mobilize fats, but also to oxidize them. Because it's a higher intensity form of exercise, which burns mostly glucose for energy, and it also doesn't burn as many calories as cardio does. Whereas low intensity, steady state cardio burns more calories per minute than resistance training does and also relies on fatty acids for fuel. So by doing cardio right after resistance training session, we can burn off the mobilized fatty acids before they get reesterified back into that tissue.

49:00
Now, caveat to all of this, and this is really something that I have to put forward as a coach and to really give sound information, is that you need to make sure that you're maintaining a calorie, a consistent calorie deficit while combining resistance training cardio so that you'll be in a state of negative energy balance where you'll be losing fat consistently and not restoring or regaining fat so that this allows you to continue improving your physique over time. And that's a really fundamental component because many, like I mentioned at the start of this podcast, many of these spot reduction interventions

49:28
that found spot reduction, quote unquote, be a myth, they didn't do anything with their diet. And so we can't dispute the fact that they didn't have dietary recall, they didn't have dietary records, they had no dietary intervention. So a lot of these people could have felt, and a lot of these individuals in these studies were untrained. And we see in such a large body, or such a large preponderance of the evidence, that when someone exercised, a lot of times they reward themselves. And so now if they went from saying maintenance calories, they're just eating isochlorically, and then they increase their calories, it doesn't matter what you do.

49:58
you don't have your diet dialed in, you're not going to lose body fat. And maybe in that region, you're losing body fat, but you're just restoring it later on that evening. And so it's very important to combine the resistance training for that particular body part, following it up by cardio right after, which is why I say something for the abs, I've done in a fasted state, the lower back, I've done training for in a fasted state. But also another intervention that I've utilized is that I've used training that area. So say it was your triceps, we could do triceps a few times a week, maybe three or four times a week, because most of these studies, these interventions, they train the

50:27
target muscle group around four plus times a week. So would say four times a week, we'll train, it could just be three to six sets. So something that's going to be very, it's not going to be time consuming, but it's going to be a stimulation of that. can even use say, shorter rest intervals. can almost look at it as like we could do a circuit. So maybe three exercises, two sets of each, and we just go through it on a circuit on your triceps. And then we follow that up. We take a couple minutes, get some water. Now we're getting, we've mobilized those free fatty acids. They're being transported through the blood flow. That's increased. You're to get a pump. And then from there,

50:56
then we go into cardio after. So that could be at the end of your training session. So I could have, I've had clients train their abs or their low back after I've had women do like say lighter glute bridges and high reps to really get a burn in that area. And then we've targeted glutes through that modality, or it's just been the regular training sessions where that has been one of the final exercises. So they've done hip thrusts, they've done glute, hip backs, or they've done abs, it's already programmed in their schedule. And I generally like to see this done three or four times a week. Now I will tell you this,

51:22
The most dramatic transformations, this is not a recommendation for everyone. This is my coaching practice that I'm putting my coach hat on. The most dramatic transformations I've seen in spot reduction were actually really tightening up this area. And now when I see this, it's almost like a body recomposition effect. What I mean by that is we're increasing lean mass in an area and decreasing fat mass, which makes the appearance all the more incredible essentially. So what I mean by that is that you're increasing, say you have an underdeveloped area, your triceps are underdeveloped, your low back's underdeveloped.

51:52
And it's a spot that also tends to store fat. Well, by increasing lean mass, even if you didn't lose body fat at all, it's going to look cleaner because you're going to be tighter toned. You're going to have a better appearance. Now we use fat mass on top of that. Now it's more pronounced. So now for me, I've been able to bring out my spinal erectors and really get like that, that Christmas tree look. I'm someone that struggles with low back fat. I've done these things many times. I've even used topical creams on top of this. It's not a recommendation. Just saying like I've went all the way, but I've really seen some of the most advantageous effects.

52:19
going upwards of six to seven days a week. Now, is that something everyone's going to do? No. But I've worked with very high level physique competitors. This is something where it was something like my client Grant, where it was his 50th birthday. He's only turning 51. So we had a photo shoot. We had a specific date, then we made it happen. But I've had other people, generally I've done it least four days per week and seen some good results. But often, if it's not a fatiguing type of exercise. So for instance, if you're training abs and we could really rotate different exercises, so it's a little bit of a different stimulus per day.

52:44
or it isn't a muscle group that induces a lot of damage. So I would never suggest if you want to lose fat in your hamstrings, that's a muscle group, which is more fat switch dominant. It also induces a lot more soreness. I would never tell you, hey, let's do RDL six times a week. That's not going to happen. And most people aren't going to lose fat off their hamstrings as far reduction matter. If we're talking about abs, a smaller muscle group, maybe your triceps, something like your low back, I think you train it five or six days a week and then do that post-workout cardio on top of that. And duration is really going to depend on the other vectors in your program.

53:12
How large is your calorie deficit through nutrition? Because I take a multimodal approach to nutritional interventions. The first thing I always do is I set the calorie deficit through nutritional modifications and manipulations. So that's always my primary thing. I want to get an effective calorie deficit, but usually I will actually make it smaller than I actually intend to in the totality. I will just nutrition first, but then I'm going to increase energy expenditure. So I'm decreasing energy and I'm increasing energy expenditure, and that could be through cardio. So intentional, formal cardio, that could be through steps. So we have to look at all components. So I don't want to put out something like,

53:42
To get this done, have to do every single day ab work for 10 sets and then five or 10 sets. And then you have to follow by 45 minutes. I can tell you what it says in the literature, but I have taken this on a client by client basis based on how large their deficit, what is their rate of loss, how much fat they have in that region. Is it just something like a little bit of that extra that for some guys that I've worked with that are more of a physique focus, photo shoot guys, fitness models, it's like the last little bit on the bottom of their stomach. And it's like, all right, that's not going to take a ton.

54:10
of actual work, but it is going to take a little bit more intentionality in terms of training, the strategy that we use for your actual stimulus of that area. And then also the cardio, the timing, these things are really what it's going to dial in the details. So that's really what it comes down to. An expression I say to my clients is attention makes all the difference. Attention to detail makes all the difference. Yeah, 100%. And if someone's doing hip based workout post training, you know, because a lot of us are

54:34
trying to get that, the short intensity training, that sit training or that HIIT training, is that going against what you're describing in terms of the type of cardio Brandon, because it's going to liberate more, we utilize more glucose. Like are we actually, are we better off doing that lower intensity stuff? So I'm going to give you the physiological rationale behind it. Why wouldn't you suggest that? And then I'm also going to go through

54:58
Hey, I work with people in the real world that are time constraint that may have different preferences. Say I'm working with you, and you love cardio. So this is going to fit in where you're training. theoretically, if we were to look at it, cardio after a resistance training session, you've already mobilized fatty acids from the fat cell. Now you're going back into a glycolytic activity. I often wouldn't suggest doing two higher intensity forms of exercise back to back. Resistance training, it's a glycolytic metabolism. So it's relying off of historical glycogen.

55:28
and then glucose. Then HIIT is also in that higher intensity threshold. So we're to burn more carbohydrates for energy. You're not going to get that same thing. You're going get that molization. Now here's the other thing that we could do though. Say that you have the intention, you have the desire, and you have the preference of HIIT cardio. What we can do is a different thing. We could separate that out and we could say, right, you're going to do a little bit of training for a specific body part. So say you're doing your abs, we're going do a little bit of training for that.

55:52
And we're to make sure that you actually stimulate that tissue. Then you're to go do HIIT session. So you didn't do a full resistant training session. You haven't completely depleted glycogen. But you've depleted a little bit in that region. You've increased that mobilization from those abdominal fat cells. Then we're going to go do a few intervals, but not excessively, because you've already done some higher intensity exercise. Maybe do five intervals, over a 10-minute session. And so say we go 15 seconds on, it would be like 98 seconds off or something of that role.

56:20
get 10 minutes, and then we go right into low intensity steady state. So, you've increased fat mobilization. We've gotten it from the actual area. Now, the issue is, and the reason I have not an issue with it, but theoretically, it wouldn't work as well, is that if you actually look at aerobic training as compared to resistance training, aerobic training increases whole body lipolysis. It's not specific to the region. So, we're... And actually, if you look into fat loss physiology on women, they actually pull more fatty acids first and foremost. Women will mobilize more free fatty acids.

56:49
But controversially enough, you'll hear people say women burn more fat for energy. They don't though. Because if we look at a gram per gram minute, based on energy expenditure calculations of women due to being smaller, having lower energy expenditure due to just smaller body mass, also less peak power and things of that sort, they're actually probably burning less grams of fat per day than men. And so during exercise, will preferentially utilize, in comparison to carbohydrates, they're going to utilize more fat for energy at low and moderate intensity cardio.

57:17
Once we get to a higher end, they're going to use carbohydrates for energy. But with that being said, we want to really specifically target adipose tissue lipolysis in the area that we're trying to burn. if we were to increase whole body lipolysis through aerobic training, it's not going to be as specific. you may pull it, it's going to depend on the person, but women often will mobilize more free fatty acids from their upper body. And if their lower body is where they want to target, we're going to have to do some direct training on that lower body to actually mobilize free fatty acids from that area.

57:47
Okay. And when you say, and so with respect to that, does it matter? So you're, are you saying that that matters? What type of low intensity exercise it is like swimming versus elliptical trainer versus treadmill or just actually low intensity exercise doesn't matter. Yeah. So I don't believe that the modality is going to be very influential, but I'm going to say this. The only types that I've used with clients are treadmill.

58:14
are the elliptical and the cycle. And the reason for that is the two interventions that show the most significant amount of spot reduction are done with treadmill or cycling after. So that was just swimming. don't know if someone would be able to, I also don't know that many great swimmers. I know that you have a triathlete background and stuff, but I know that. I could tell my clients, Hey, I want you to jump in the pool right after. Like they would be struggling just to keep a flow. And so would I. So I don't know if it'd be the greatest low intensity. would probably be an intermittent activity and probably high intensity at that.

58:43
Yeah, that's a really good call actually. I'm a terrible swimmer. No, no, I swim okay, but I have never improved. And that's fine actually. I've come to that sort of acceptance of the fact that I will forever be a bit of a slow swimmer, but that's fine. Brandon, have we covered all of the important things that people need to know about spot reduction? You've covered a lot, but you know what, do you...

59:05
Do you want to cover the research that actually looks at spot reduction so people realize, all right, these guys have been talking theory out here. Is there any evidence that actually shows that there is spot reduction that occurs? Yeah, let's end on there because I think you definitely have clearly drawn on a ton of studies throughout our conversation around different topics that I've asked you about, but that would have been really good. Absolutely. All right, so what I'll do is I'll start with the most recent study and then I'll go back to what I believe is the most compelling study.

59:33
And they're both within a short time period. we're talking about 2023 and 2017. So in the most recent study on this topic, it's a 2023 randomized control trial. And this is in males. So they took overweight males who were an average of 43 years old. And they split them up into two groups. And the reason I'm actually giving you demographics of the actual client population is because a lot of times, most of these studies are done in obese individuals, first and foremost, and then also in very young individuals, which are like college age. you know...

01:00:00
Often it's not applicable because these guys are out of semester in college, they're young, they're able-bodied. These are guys that are in their mid-40s essentially, probably have kids, probably have a family, but they put them through this intervention. And they divided them up into two groups. And one group did cardio plus ab training four times per week. So they did two forms of exercise. So that's the big thing that I keep going back to. And each session, what they did was 27 minutes of treadmill running followed by weighted ab training. But this wasn't just any ab training. It was actually a very intensive and long ab training session.

01:00:28
And between the treadmill session that they did and the ab training routine, each of those four sessions per week took 84 minutes. Now they did, was essentially like an interval for their abs. So they did, you know, torso trunk rotations. did ab crunching machines. These were weighted and they would do four sets of each exercise with, with actual rest intervals in between. just like we would train resistance training, it was very similar in terms of how they actually train their abs, which another mistake, a lot of people kind of train their abs like they would just like a calisthenic exercise. They kind of just do body weight, high rep.

01:00:56
They're not really looking to induce progressive overload and get better over time, stronger over time. This is a big difference and this is something I utilize with my clients where I'm like, listen, you got to get stronger over time. If you're doing something and you're not feeling a stimulus and you can do a hundred reps of it, this is not going to get you spot reduction nor is it going to get you development in that region. that's just a little caveat. Now the other group acted as a control and they did treadmill running for 45 minutes, four times a week. And the reason why we have 27 minutes in one group and 45 minutes in the other group is because they wanted to make sure that each group burned the same amount of calories per session.

01:01:26
So in totality, each group trained four days per week and had their energy expenditure, aka the calories burned, match between sessions. And this is really important because if we're looking at fat loss differences between groups, we need to ensure that the deficit is matched and they had them stay at maintenance calories. So the deficit is going to be created by their exercise intervention. Now at the end of 10 weeks, their local fat mass was measured by DEXA and both groups lost body weight and body fat. But with the cardio only group, they lost more total body weight. But if you actually look into like,

01:01:55
really down into the charts and things. You'll actually see that that was actually due to losing more lean mass. They didn't have a stimulus to actually maintain tissue. Whereas the ab training plus cardio group lost more total fat mass. However, that ab training plus cardio group lost a significant amount more fat mass, specifically from their abdomen, where the cardio only group did not lose any fat mass from their trunk. So if we think about this, not only is this evidence for localized or spot reduction, but it's also going back to that theory that... Not the theory, the information that I was giving you about.

01:02:25
cardio in and of itself, aerobic training, it's whole body like policies. We do not choose where we're liberating fat from. Whereas with the actual intervention of actually resistant training, their abs, they did lose fat from that area because we're mobilizing fatty acids from there. Now, the second study, which was a little bit older, it's a 2017 study, it's by Deep Palumbo and colleagues. And they took physically inactive women and divided them into two groups. Now, one group only resistant trained their upper body each session, and then they would follow this upper body training session with 30 minutes of cycling. The other group...

01:02:53
Only resistant trained their lower body and followed each lower body session up with 30 minutes of cycling. And then what they did was they, the volume equated the study. So each group trained the same amount of days per week and train using the same total training volume. just one did it for their upper body, one did it for their lower body. And this was an eight week intervention. They were told to maintain their normal diet. So keep in mind their normal diet with the inclusion of this actual intervention, they were inactive previously. So this would have increased energy expenditure because they were doing both resistant training and cardio.

01:03:23
And so, we put them into a deficit. However, when we actually look at the results, both groups lost the same amount of weight. So, you would think to yourself, all right, did this do anything? It did. The upper body group experienced a greater reduction in their upper body fat mass than in their lower body fat mass. And they also gained a bit of lean mass in their upper body. Whereas the lower body group lost more fat mass from their lower body than on their upper body. So, it was targeted to the area they actually trained, but they also saw a significant increase in their lower body mass. So, they essentially experienced body recomposition in both groups.

01:03:53
But was specific to the areas that they trained. So the group that trained upper body lost fat and gained muscle in their upper body. Whereas the group that trained lower body lost fat and gained muscle in their lower body. And this would be due to the fact that during resistance training, they mobilized more fat from the areas that they were training. But after these sessions, they immediately went to do cardio. And really at that point, they had mobilized fat from that area. They also increased blood flow from that area. So they were able to facilitate the transport of those liberated free fatty acids. And then...

01:04:20
doing cardio immediately after, those free fatty acids weren't restored again and instead they were burned off. So, these are the two interventions that show, yes, spot reduction is possible, but not in the way that many people used to speak about. It isn't going to be from sitting doing setups all day. It isn't going to be from bodyweight exercises. You're not going to do squat jumps to leaner booty. It is going to be through a multimodal practice where you combine resistance training of that target region you want to lose, cardio after it, and then also there has to be some type of caloric manipulation.

01:04:49
So that could be by increasing energy expenditure through exercise. in most of these cases, they not only did more resistance training or added in resistance training, but they also did more cardio. So now energy expenditure is going up and they're staying at maintenance calories. They're putting themselves in a deficit or it could be like I referenced, I will put a lot of clients where I'll manipulate their nutrition first. Then I start manipulating modalities. But I also will make the caveat here that stubborn fat protocols or

01:05:13
spot reduction protocols are not used first and foremost. It's really when someone is struggling because a lot of times if you have excess adiposity, you have excess body fat, we don't really know what your stubborn areas are until you get leaner. And then we notice, you know what? So and so's upper body is getting leaner first. Her abs are dialed in, but her lower body, actually her thighs are lagging behind. We may have to do something more specialized for that. in the case of a lot of men, their entire upper body, their whole trunk needs to lose fat.

01:05:38
then you start noticing, hey, he's coming in really quick from the front or in the opposite region. It could be he's coming in really quick. He's getting lean from the back, but his abs, he still has like a pot belly. And so then we really need to target these different interventions and start adding things in. this is not something that I would suggest, hey, right out the gate, start doing this. Because the other issue with that is that we are individuals that want gratification from results. And so if you're at a higher amount of body fat and you're not seeing substantial progress, despite doing this stuff, you may think it doesn't work, but it really has not worked.

01:06:07
The results are not visible because you have not lost enough body fat yet. Yeah. Oh, that makes so much sense. And you know what? it's like, I'm not going to say it's simple, but what I'm hearing is like a lot of what you're saying we need to do is actually what people are doing anyway, but they may be doing it in a different order. They might not be the way. mean, it is hilarious because I'm like, Oh my God, I, know, like I barely even, I mean, I think about my triceps, but I might train them like once a week. Um, so.

01:06:35
Yeah. That's a common mistake though. How many women will tell me, hey, I don't like my arms. I don't like my triceps. I don't like my biceps. And then I go through their entire program. Now this is before I'm working with them. And then I tell them, listen, we're going to train this more often. I'm going to increase your frequency. And I try to speak client, believe me. I'm not saying, I'm going to get you jacked arms because I don't believe that that's going be the case. What I'm saying is I'm going get you more tight, toned and tightened in that area. It's really going to improve the look of your physique. And they tell me, no, no, no, I don't want to get bulky. And I'm like,

01:07:01
But you need to train that area not only to increase fat loss in that area, but also to increase muscle mass so that you have more of a toned and tight look. You're not going to be able to lose fat from that area or even improve the look if you already have what you consider bigger arms, some women. And that's a matter of perspective. And I'm not here to dispute that. But what I am here to dispute is A, I've been training for 20 plus years and I do this as a profession. I've yet to get bulky. So bulkiness, and we need to dispute this or we need to dispel this. Bulkiness is influenced by your diet. So if you're overeating, that's how you get bulky.

01:07:31
Combine resistance training with controlled caloric intake, plus different interventions like training these specific muscle groups, utilizing a multi-modal approach to fat loss or body recomposition. You're gonna get more toned, you're gonna look better, and you're gonna feel better about those areas. We have to give it a chance. Yeah, yeah, 100%. And I always am like, yeah, but it's such a small muscle group. I've only got 40 minutes. So you're already in my head. like, yeah, okay, I know where I need to improve. This is what I love about chatting to you, Brandon.

01:08:00
I actually know a lot, but there's no way that I have the insight or knowledge the way that you do around this. And it just really speaks to your, as you said, your intellectual curiosity in these things and working with like thousands of people. so, so essentially your protocol isn't at different from what probably people are doing, but they just need to tweak it a bit. And, in terms of timeline, Brandon, you think eight to 12 weeks is a long enough time to see results?

01:08:30
That is going to be person dependent. And the reason I say that is, I've worked with so many people and the, in science, we would refer to this as response heterogeneity. And all that means is that there are differential responses in diet, in training, in cardio, in exercise, or in energy expenditure. So I never like giving timelines. What I will say is that for women, I'm going to give this a little bit sex-based differences. With women, I like to take less of a, let me say it like this. I like to take more of a moderate calorie deficit.

01:08:58
So, what I mean by that is it's a moderate rate of loss. So, I'm really trying to target with women between 0.25 to 1 % of body weight loss per week. On the higher end of that spectrum, that 1 % would be at the beginning of the fat loss phase if they have higher amounts of body fat. So, if a woman has excess fat opacity or they're just getting out of building phase, I just built up their calories so high. So, for instance, I coach my partner, she's currently eating more food than she's ever eaten. She came to me literally eating 825 calories. She was in a contest prep. And believe me, when I say I'm not exaggerating 825 calories, I was with her.

01:09:26
was working with a different coach, I actually calculated her intake because I was quite concerned, but nor here nor there. She's up to about 3,000 calories per day. She eats about 420 grams of carbs per day. So, in her situation, I have more room to play with. I can pull a little bit more and accelerate that fat loss to, 1 % per week for the first few weeks. Then I take what's called a descending rate of loss approach. This is what I refer to it as, which means throughout the course of the diet, I'm actually decreasing the calorie deficit that they're actually in to preserve lean mass, preserve training performance.

01:09:54
make sure their biofeedback stays on point, and also trying to preserve their menstrual cycle. So these are all things that are very specific to women because women out there have much higher of a critical energy availability threshold than men do. We can get away as men, evolutionarily, how we're designed, sex dimorphism essentially, is we can get away with more aggressive deficits. So with a woman, I'm going to take more of a moderate and conservative approach. it's going to be based on the rate of loss is also going to backtrack essentially how much weight does she have to lose? How much body fat is she looking to lose? How lean is she trying to get?

01:10:24
So, many times, I'm actually going to extend the diet a little bit longer with women than I am men. But that's different than what most food think. They're thinking, well, a longer diet is going to be a harder diet. No. With women, I'm going to utilize a much more moderate deficit, total deficit, because if we think about the implications of women dieting versus men, first of all, you guys have lower total daily energy expenditure. So, if a woman is starting out at a maintenance calorie intake of 2,000 versus a men at 3,000, if I put them both in a 500-calorie deficit, that is

01:10:50
like 1 17th for a man, but that's 25 % for a woman. There's a differentiation between that. Women also for the same amount of cardio. So that's a big, a big thing within this stuff and fat protocol or this a spine reduction protocol is that I cannot prescribe the same amount of cardio for a woman that weighs 120 pounds as I do a man that weighs 200 pounds because we're going to see a massive differentiation. And if you actually look at studies that look at energy expenditure, equated cardio, there's about a 25 to 30 % discrepancy between men and women. Meaning that say for instance,

01:11:20
A man was doing 15 minutes of cardio to burn some amount of calories, say 300 calories. doesn't matter. One would need to go, say, 65 minutes to burn that CML. And this is something for you guys out there that maybe aren't as familiar with research or don't look into it as much. If you look at cardio studies and you find that women, they say in the study, hey, cardio is not as effective for women, for weight loss or for fat loss. And you look at the duration and their equalized, realize that women burn less calories in that instance. So yes, they would have to lose less body weight.

01:11:49
So we have to look at these things in relative versus absolute. So with that, I'm going to extend the dieting timeline, but I'm also going to be more adept or more likely to utilize refeeds, diet breaks, what I refer to as a deficit deload with women to just preserve menstrual cycle function and also help with really balancing out that autonomic nervous system. Cause I find that a lot of women, I don't want to say this is an evolutionary thing, but I do think that in my experience, women are more highly stressed in today's society. They're trying to manage so many different aspects of life, whether it be a career, which 30, 40 years ago, women

01:12:18
know, we're staying at home. They're not only balancing a career, they're a productive, you know, contributing member of society. They have kids, they're taking care of, you know, their husband. They have so many things on their plate that they're highly stressed. And so, you know, there's so many things that we have to think about. think with women, it would be a longer timeline for dieting. And I would utilize this towards the back end. So say a woman's going to diet 16 weeks, maybe the last eight weeks, I utilize these interventions with men. I generally see that they can diet a little bit shorter, probably about

01:12:44
maybe 10 to 20 % less time in totality, but I can also create a larger deficit off the bat. And they're more, I would say, probably robust to a calorie deficit. We have less interventions or stop gaps in the system. Like we're not losing menstrual cycle function. And so there's so many things to consider. So I would say, start your process like this. Or I can tell you how I start my process. When it comes to any type of fat loss goal, your main goal and your main focus should be on energy balance. That's the most important factor to dial in.

01:13:12
So whenever I transition a client into a fallacy phase, I take a strategic approach where I just one variable at a time. And this should sound familiar because that's a scientific method. Most people, I'll tell you so many coaches, they just throw everything at the wall to see what sticks and they don't know what did what. Now, I don't believe in doing that. And so the first aspect of my clients programming that I always modify first is their diet as my goal is to create an effective deficit through nutritional modifications before adjusting anything else such as cardio, their step count target, their supplementation, their training, none of those things.

01:13:40
If you're not consistently in a calorie deficit, none of this other stuff matters. It doesn't matter how many sit ups you do. doesn't matter the taking this information that I provide you with the resistance training plus the cardio. If you don't have a deficit first, focus on that first. Get yourself in deficit. See that you're losing week to week and for women specifically cycle to cycle. look at week one of your menstrual cycle versus one month versus next month's week one of your menstrual cycle. If you see that you're consistently losing weight,

01:14:03
cycle to cycle in terms of those phases. if it's week four, realize your weight's going to go up because we're seeing an increase in progesterone. We're seeing the increase in water weight fluctuations. Realize if you're going down over time, you're in a deficit, you're staying consistent. Now we can utilize some different modalities you could take from just doing facet cardio for 30 minutes, say for instance, and decide, hey, I'm going to put that post-workout after I train the X body part that I want to target. Amazing. Brandon, you were just like, as always, a complete wealth of information.

01:14:33
I feel so grateful that I get this opportunity to pick your brain, both personally, I sort of got my little own consult there, but also like you just add so much value for everyone out there listening, because this is the world we live in. People are always interested to know what they can do to help optimize their fat loss approach. And you literally laid out there. Now, first for the listeners, just finally, I guess, can you just remind people where they can find you? I, of course, will link our previous episodes.

01:15:02
to the show notes and also are you taking clients for those people who you work with? So can you just like, let us know. Absolutely. So first and foremost, I am taking clients. So I am open. If you guys need any help, whether it be with fat loss, with body recomposition, with gaining muscle, I'm your guy. I would love to be able to help you. And like I had mentioned to you, I don't know if this will actually make the recording, but I've...

01:15:22
went all in just on coaching. not mentoring any other coaches or anything of that sort. And so really my primary purpose in everything I do, why I put out this information, why I get on podcasts, why I engage in these conversations, I really do try to put out evidence informed information. I just want to be the best coach possible and I want to help people to the best of my ability. if you guys are intrigued in this information, feel free to reach out to me. My email is the best place to reach out to me, which is beta Cruz fitness at gmail.com. You guys can also find me for daily content at Brandon Cruz underscore, which is on Instagram. And then another thing

01:15:51
I would love you guys to check out. you love podcasts, obviously, listening to Micropedia, please come check me out. It's the Chasing Clarity podcast. I've had immense guests. I've been very fortunate. I've had people like Mickey herself and then other people within the space. really one thing about myself is I don't do a lot of guest interviews. That's not my forte to say the least. But when I do, is about, I bring on experts in their field. And it's something that I'm very fortunate to be able to interact with someone like Mickey or someone like an Alan Aragon or Eric Holmes or people that I have immense amount of respect for.

01:16:20
And together, we're able to bridge the gap between research and practice. And I think that's something that is dearly missing in our industry. So I'm just trying to put out great information, really push that forward, just like Mickey is. Yeah, it is amazing, Brendan. Final question. What time do you go to bed? So I lay in bed at least by 7 p.m. because I'm up at 3 a.m. You know I'm an early riser. Because I catch you sometimes in the morning.

01:16:45
But was actually an adaptation or a change I made to my schedule because as you very well know, when we first spoke, I was just getting out of my corporate position. So for 10 plus years, I had an executive position. I did research and development behind supplements. And so that may be our next podcast, actually. But that was my career. And essentially what I did was I had a position that was in New York. I used to have to travel immensely. And so I used to get up every day at 3 a.m. to get in touch with my international clients, do my client check-ins. I'd go to a full work day. And then in the evenings, I would...

01:17:13
I would check in or do my check-ins with my domestic clients. And now I transitioned out, but I still work with about 30 % of my client roster are international. So I'm working with people in New Zealand, in Australia, in Malaysia, in Bali, in UK, all over the place. It's been immensely beneficial because I've been able to connect with people all around the world and I love other cultures and I love seeing how other people live and really getting.

01:17:34
to learn about them. it's been the biggest benefit. so waking up at 3 a.m., everyone always tells me, dude, you're crazy, especially people in the States. like, dude, you own your own business. Why are you getting up that early? But I love being able to interact with people at their own times that they're awake. no, I love it too. And I don't think you're crazy at all. think you're owning the day. I love it. Absolutely. Nice one, Brandon. Well, take care. Thank you so much. And absolutely, I would love to get you back on because you mentioned a couple of things. You mentioned caffeine, you mentioned...

01:18:00
your himbe, I think that's how I say it. But equally, know, fat burners was sort of on the list and you sort of tease a little bit there and I think people are going to really want interested to know, you know, what's actually worth their time and money. So, Let's schedule it. Amazing. Thanks, Brandon.