00:04
Hey everyone, it's Mikki here. You're listening to Mikipedia. This week on the podcast, super stoked to bring to you my conversation with registered dietitian, Michelle Hearn. Michelle is a clinical dietitian, endurance athlete, and author of The Dietitian's Dilemma. In this conversation, Michelle shares how her lived experience with severe anorexia and disordered eating led her to question the very nutrition guidelines she was trained to.

00:34
remote. From confronting the failures of conventional dietetics to advocating for a low carb animal based approach to health and performance, Michelle's story is really one of a transformation. And she opens up about the pivotal moments that reshaped her life, why she walked away from the system she was trained in and how she now helps others find food freedom and real recovery, especially those who have done everything quote unquote right.

01:02
and distil unwell. With a background in both clinical nutrition and elite level running, offers quite a rare and refreshing take on fueling the body, reclaiming health and redefining what healing truly looks like. what's so remarkable, I think about this is like many other people in this space, Michelle's practice now really is almost at odds of what she thought was health and it was through her own

01:32
journey that has really led to her really thriving now in this animal-based model. so Michelle and I talk a lot about it, talk a lot about mental health, and of course running as, you know, Michelle is such an amazing runner and she's just recently had some pretty big achievements and really excited to see how she does next. So for those of you unfamiliar, Michelle Hearn is a registered and licensed dietitian, author and endurance athlete.

02:00
who has become a leading voice in challenging conventional nutrition guidelines. After battling a severe eating disorder and experiencing firsthand the failures of a system she was trained in, began questioning mainstream dietary advice, particularly its emphasis on low fat, high carbohydrate diets. Her personal recovery and professional observations led her to explore low carbohydrate, animal-based nutrition as a therapeutic tool for both physical and mental health, which is

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course is what we're talking about today. Michelle is the author of The Dietitian's Dilemma, a powerful memoir manifesto that blends science, personal experience, and patient stories to advocate for a radical shift in how we approach health through food. She's since dedicated her career to helping others find real recovery and vitality through nutrient-dense bioavailable foods, particularly those who've struggled with chronic illness, disordered eating, or metabolic dysfunction.

02:58
Michelle is also an accomplished ultraner, we chat about that, and a passionate speaker on nutrition, mental health, and the future of dietetics, of which she's also on the board of the American Diabetes Society. So we have a brief conversation about that too. I have got links as to where you can find Michelle on Instagram, on the internet, and where you can also purchase her book, Excellent The Dietitian's Dilemma, and also links to the American Diabetes Society.

03:26
Before we crack on into the interview though, I would like to remind you that the best way to support this podcast is to hit the subscribe button on your favorite podcast listening platform. That increases the visibility of Micropedia out there and amongst literally thousands of other podcasts that people could listen to. And if you share with a mate and both of you subscribe, that is the best way that you can help us grow. All right team, enjoy this conversation I have with Michelle Hearn.

03:57
Michelle, great to chat to you your afternoon. First thing I want to ask you before I crack on into all of these questions, which I probably won't even ask you because I'll just sort of go where my mind goes. What was for lunch? Lunch was just beef and butter. It's pretty standard. That's usually the day starts and ends with ground beef. That is delicious.

04:25
I like people will be listening to this and obviously I would have done an intro about you and they will know that you're a registered dietitian and your nutritional practices though go almost like the exact opposite of what most dietitians will both learn in their training and then tell people to eat, which do you still get people going, oh my goodness, when you show your things on social media or you're talking to people about

04:54
diet. you work with clients, obviously? Yes, yes. Actually, right now, I take personal clients and I work through an app called Ona Health, very similar to Virta Health, where type 2 diabetics get to meet with me and an endocrinologist, with the actual goal being to get them off medication. That must be so rewarding. How awesome.

05:17
Oh, that's what I went, you know, and we'll talk more about this, I'm sure, but that's why I became a dietician. You know, I didn't want to be a cog in the wheel just keeping people sick. Yeah. Yeah. No, I can completely appreciate that. And Michelle, I read your book and I was like, it was, I found it really a difficult read in the initial bit when you were telling people about your story. is such an emotional, you obviously went through quite a

05:44
traumatic experience, I think personally, just in however many years it was over, it seemed to be over like starting from very young. I suppose this is why you are in the position you are now, where you want to help people in and around diet and more than diet, because food is so transformational, you know, it's amazing. But can you just for us, give us a little bit of your backstory, because I think that there were people who won't be familiar with it.

06:13
Absolutely. yeah, just so you know, several of my friends and my wife, say like, I hate the first chapter of your book. And I remind them like it has a really happy ending. But, you know, I felt like it was important to share honestly and authentically. Yeah, when I was 12 years old, I was diagnosed with anorexia nervosa. I was five feet tall and 57 and a half pounds. I think that's like 26 kilograms. extremely underweight actually passed out in school. You know, people asked me today, like, how did people not notice, you know, and it's the world was so different.

06:42
We didn't have camera phones and I wore baggy clothes. parents, my dad was working and my mom was pretty absent. Woke up in the hospital with a blood glucose of 24, which as a child, you don't know what that means. Now as a practitioner, like, that means you could be dead. And I was put into inpatient treatment and immediately put on a 24-hour tube feeding system. And the main ingredients of tube feeding, corn syrup, sugar, maltodextrin, canola oil, soy protein, all these inflammatory ingredients.

07:12
And so, you know, I was told, one, that I had a very slim possibility just to survive. You know, I was very, very sick, heart failure, kidney failure. And if I did, I remember the doctor saying like, people don't really recover. You know, you're gonna always have anxiety. You'll probably always have depression. You might not grow. You know, you won't be able to play like the other kids. And this is gonna be something you deal with the rest of your life. You're gonna be thinking about food, worrying about food.

07:39
which is a pretty traumatic and terrible thing to say as a 12 year old. But I remember thinking that, you know, I was put on seven different medications, you know, one for anxiety. I had such severe GI problems from all the, you know, the sugar and the carbs that I was put on, a stomach acid. Well, that was causing, you know, even more constipation. Oh, now we're putting you on this. And then I was, I was so OCD and anxious that they had to put me on something that would knock me out. So I couldn't, well, now she's so zonked out. She can't focus on therapy. Well, now we have to give her an upper. It was such a mess.

08:07
And yeah, I'm so grateful though. I do feel like my recovery is my gift of gratitude. I became weight restored, but just like the doctor told me, I had terrible anxiety and depression throughout my early adolescence and into adulthood. I describe it as kind of standing on the sidelines of your own life. Like you kind of learn how to act and to be just so you can kind of fit in. I was lucky that I have three older sisters, two doctors, one veterinarian now. So very intelligent, very driven.

08:36
So I also was, I did well in school, but I had minimal friends. I really struggled. I was constantly worried about food, thinking about food. It relapsed to where I lost weight several times. Found solace in running. It was actually a reason for me to gain weight, to be able to participate in sports. But unfortunately, because of my history, I had low bone density. I had two stress fractures. I actually ended my college running career because I had a severe stress fracture.

09:04
Yeah, I wanted to become a dietician though because I had this intuition that I was missing something. There has to be something that I can do with food to help my brain heal. It seemed like other people weren't dealing with this anxiety and depression like I was. That's super interesting, Michelle. And just listening to you talk about it and when I'm thinking about what I read in your book and one of the really heartwarming parts of it was when you mentioned that you got home, your weight restored, you were on your way to...

09:33
you were out of inpatient, you were at home. This is still as a young girl and your sister had her friends around and you went up there and you sort of asked for a piece of pizza and it was like, oh my goodness. But then you talked about how you and your sister sort of, I'm not sure if it was a bonding experience, but it was, you know, she helped you or helped you sort of try to remove a lot of the restriction in your brain.

10:02
that sort of normalize having just like food. Food, yes. you know, eating disorders are not just psychiatric disorders, they're metabolic psychiatric disorders. And we'll obviously get more into that. But I still had the psychiatric problem. You know, I had the thoughts that I hated myself. It's wild to say that out loud now. You know, my second oldest sister, I vividly remember getting back from treatment and they're just telling me, I hate you.

10:30
because I was still so underweight and still struggling. And in their view, I'm taking this time and the money from the family. And my second oldest sister, who's only 14 months older than I am, I remember her helping me pack for treatment. And she's told me years later, like when we were adults, like, I thought you were gonna die. I was so scared. And I didn't wanna tell you, like when I told you goodbye, like thought this is the last time I'm gonna see you. She was 13, I was 12. And yeah, and I remember that summer that we just...

10:59
You know, I just like let go, just ate a astronomical amount of food and with her help and with her encouragement. It's wild too, because like if she had told me like, you have to eat, you must eat, I probably would have pushed back, but she just showed up. You know, I'm here, I love you. And I think that's really how we change, you know, and change is so hard. can't, if you ever tried to make someone change, you can't force people to change. But if we show up lovingly, you know, and just influence, we can influence people by how we act and you know, how we love for sure.

11:29
Yeah, absolutely. I'm really interested to hear your comments around treatment for something like anorexia. And you mentioned it being a metabolic psychiatric disorder, and I don't think people think about that. you know, I've worked like I'm, I'm a registered nutritionist, but I do not have training in eating disorders the way that dietitians would. I have, however, worked alongside therapists with the, with younger girls, like teenage girls who didn't want to

11:58
go down the usual route for feeding, I guess, and refeeding to restore healthy weight. They wanted to do it in a way that sort of reflected more their values. It's an interesting, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this because the family, not the mum so much, but the daughter certainly was very much into the paleo whole food type movement. And yet you've got to your point like the...

12:27
the tube feeding of essentially insure basically being drip feed and then told that you've got to eat ice cream and white bread and all of these foods, which are not only a little bit frightening, but they're actually just not full of nutrition. Do you have thoughts, Michelle? What are your thoughts on this? I have lots of thoughts. What's really interesting about eating disorder treatment, I imagine it's similar where you live, but in the United States,

12:55
It's not standardized. You could go in California, you could go in a different part, and it's very different. We also know that the statistics specifically for anorexia are horrible. It has the highest mortality rate of any psychiatric disorder. More people will die of anorexia than of depression, of anxiety, of schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder, all the different major depressive disorders. So clearly what we're doing isn't working, and it continues to increase exponentially. It's not like, oh wow, we're seeing people get better and improve.

13:25
And what's even more sad to me is they released a study back in 2022 where 20 % of people who died from anorexia, they did a meta-analysis, took their own life. Like they didn't even, and I get it, I get it. Like I remember as you read my book, like when the doctor told me I wasn't gonna say, like, hey, you're probably not gonna survive. Like after my parents left, was like, God. Like it's almost over. My suffering is over. know, it's hard to think about as an adult. I, you know, I'm often when I'm working or, you know, I got to spend time with my niece and nephew recently.

13:53
Oh my gosh, life is so precious and beautiful, but when you're suffering so much, it's really hard. So when it comes to treatment, we treat eating disorders like they are purely psychiatric disorders, and there's still this whole nonsense that we can't tell somebody with a disordered relationship to food to eliminate food. We can't tell somebody to not eat carbs or not eat sugar, and that it's looking at them as purely psychiatric.

14:23
But if your metabolism, if your body and brain cannot process carbohydrates, and I force you to eat carbohydrates, you cannot heal. I'm not gonna beat around the bush. You cannot heal. will never forget, because you know, I'm sure this happens in a lot of eating disorder places. It's called a challenge. have you, everyone's gonna eat a cookie, and then we're gonna sit in a room, and then we're all gonna talk about how okay it is. We're not anxious, we're fine. And I remember...

14:48
So I was treated back in, I was 12, so I in the early 90s. So you could still combine adults and children. So I remember one of the adult women pulling me aside and saying, you tell them you are okay. When they asked, don't you dare say you're not okay, or they will make us all talk about it. And I'm like, what do you mean? Shouldn't I be honest? No, you tell them you're okay. Yeah. Everyone's faking it just so we can get out of this nightmare. But you want to think about eating disorder. How I like to think about it is like the disease epilepsy.

15:18
Babies are born with epilepsy. They did nothing wrong. They just have a genetic abnormality in the brain where they're not processed glucose very well. What does that mean? If you feed a baby formula with glucose, they'll have a seizure. People with epilepsy cannot tolerate carbs very well. So what do we do? We say, okay, we'll feed you a high fat diet. We'll feed you a ketogenic diet, a very low carb diet. And you're fine. You stop seizing. People with eating disorders.

15:43
That's one of the major hypotheses. And this is also, seeing this, they just published a study less than six months ago about bipolar disorder. You can literally see shifts in the brain within six weeks on a low carb diet, meaning these people can't, their brains are now working. These areas of the brain that weren't working are now working. It is crazy actually, isn't it? Like I remember seeing that, can't remember who it was. Someone shared a study at a conference I went to a few years ago where

16:10
where the brain healed from epilepsy with someone with that, and I think it was an infant even, I think there were six months and they just gave them a ketogenic formula diet essentially and the brain healed. So it went from multiple seizures per like every 10 seconds. Like literally the brain was just seizing the entire time to being completely resolved. And as a 16 year old, she was completely normal. And I think people forget that

16:38
You can heal the brain with food and nutrients. Yes. We didn't even use to think the brain had insulin receptors. And now we know that the brain does. And you know what? Some people tell me I eat carbohydrates all the time and I'm That's wonderful. But my overwhelming experience, know, Dr. Sethi Shabani published this with binge eating disorder. Three people with lifelong binge eating disorder. I mean, we're talking, you know, their 50s and their 60s were put on a ketogenic, a low carbohydrate diet. And within a year, all had lost statistically significant weight. They were all morbidly obese.

17:08
But there's just a small paragraph in the study I gave her hard time. I'm like, that should have been a page. They had improvement in mood. They were no longer depressed and anxious. And of course it all works together. But if your brain cannot function, as an anorexic, if something is not functioning in my brain when you give me glucose, how in the world am I supposed to recover if you force me to eat ice cream and whole grains and crackers and this horrible tube feeding? I hear and validate, and I said this in my book, there's nothing more important than saving your life.

17:38
I hope someday we have better tube feeding formulas that are not full of garbage. But if that allows you to live, that's great. But then we really need to address this long term. How are we going to fuel you long term? Because my entire adolescence in adulthood, was anxious, I was depressed, I have scars on my arms from pretty severe self-injury. In 2017, was talking with my wife, like I may have to get some help out of suicidal ideation.

18:06
And as you're talking to me right now, you're probably like, no, she doesn't seem, she seems okay to me. It's so different that when your brain works, when you're able to function, if your brain isn't working properly, how in the world are you supposed to heal? You can throw therapy at people, you can throw, and I saw this a lot when I worked in mental health, especially like detox units and stuff. People are, medicating them and all this therapy and all these things, but then I'm feeding you ice cream sandwiches and root beer. I don't know why they're so anxious. It's like, go call on me. I have an idea.

18:35
And it's not just quality of food. Dietitians will be like, oh, we need to give you more brown rice. No, it's any carbohydrate. You may not be able to digest and absorb them very well. They actually published a study. Sometimes I see studies and I'm like, my six-year-old niece could figure this out. When you're anorexic, when you have starved your system, your GI doesn't absorb things very well. And so people were not absorbing the nutrition, the vitamins, the standard American diet, but when they fed them,

19:05
high fat, omega-3s, animal proteins, very low fiber, but very nutrient dense, the GI system heals. Yeah, they were able to absorb. And it is interesting, isn't it? Because I guess the pushback to what you're saying is, we not just wrapping up this eating disorder in a different form? So now it's not just about food. Now we're talking about a highly restrictive diet because we're

19:33
we're removing food groups, albeit no one, the same people that would say that would have no issue at all if someone said, I just want to be a vegetarian. know, like you always get that. Yeah, well, it's like, I think we have to define what is food because I will go to my grave saying, I don't think Oreos are food or Doritos are food. You know, these are products that it's literally someone's full-time job to design these to where they are so addictive that you can't stop eating them. You know, they mock you and their marketing like that. You can't eat just one. Once you pop, you can't stop.

20:03
That's not food. Food to me is something that if I do not eat this, I will die. Essential fatty acids, if you have a zero fat diet, you will die. Essential amino acids, if you have a zero protein diet, you will die. There is no essential carbohydrate. Throughout evolution, humans ate very, very few carbohydrates. We survived on the megafauna, the large mammals. It was the protein, their organs, their fat. We did eat carbohydrates, but they were so small. They looked nothing like the carbs we eat today.

20:31
minimal calories, minimal sugar. It was times of famine, you'd bark and grasses and maybe some tubers. But that's how the human body, it's funny because as a human species, we accept this for all other species. Like, oh yeah, a tortoise eats lettuce. Oh, a dog eats... Sorry. This is going to be good that your husband, hey, hey. Oh, sorry, the male. That's all right. Hey, are we done? Thank you.

21:01
Thank you for protecting the house from the male lady. Is he a big dog? Sounds like a Oh, he's huge. Yeah. He almost weighs as much as I do. We weren't fully prepared for the beefiness that is Jackson. He's a German chopper. Oh, yeah, the human body is designed to really effectively utilize animal protein and fat. know, can, and humans were designed to be able to go from pigs without eating.

21:28
But the way we eat now, all this bread, all these oats, all this rice, all this sugar, it forces us, you know, it forces us to have to eat every few hours. You get these blood sugar spikes and crashes, which is very anxiety provoking, especially for people with mental health disorders, you know, and it prevents you from using your own body fat. causes weight gain, causes headache, it causes fatigue, it causes, you know, infections, it causes issues with your teeth. And so I can't tell you how frustrating it is to have dieticians come to me

21:58
after I was anxious and depressed and completely reversed all my issues, eating the way humans are supposed to eat. And now we have tons of research. That's another thing. People calling ketogenic diets fad, they're the most studied diets out of every diet out there, out of vegetarian, out of Mediterranean. For their efficacy, they work, they're sustainable. I often say, Michelle, someone shows how little they know if they say something like the ketogenic diet is a fad diet. Or, and...

22:27
Health professionals are just there. They're so like, I'm not allowed to say what is like, not me, but anyone in my position. It's almost like taboo to say something like, there are good and bad foods and you must see this all the time as well. Like, it's like, not allowed to say this anymore. I'm like- We're starting to get so, this is more harmful than it is helpful because there are bad foods. You know, if you're eating something and it causes mental and physical distress, that is a bad food.

22:55
And it might be different for different people. Like the type 2 diabetics I work with, I really like a little bit of rice. I like a little bit. No. Every time you eat, you're causing inflammation and oxidation. As somebody with an eating disorder, it took me a very long time on a very low carbohydrate diet to heal. And then a lot of people, even just like type 2 diabetics, when you reverse that, can you potentially incorporate some whole food carbohydrates? Maybe, probably. But you got to heal your metabolism. We have to keep insulin low.

23:23
We need to stabilize your metabolism. would be my one lottery. I've had billions of dollars starting an eating disorder treatment where the first thing we do is adjust your metabolism. We are having you eat high fat, high protein. We are flooding your body with nutrition, flooding your brain. And then of course we have to work on all your issues. But when, like you said, when we're saying, there are no bad foods, eat Doritos, be fun, be cool. And half the dieticians that come at me like, I'm sorry.

23:51
I'm going to say it like you need to be a metabolically healthy human if you're going to be giving advice. I'm tired of these 300 pound women telling me that, oh, just because you run, it doesn't give you credibility. Yeah, it does. It totally does. my body to be able to race. I'm metabolically healthy. I'm lean. I have a functioning brain. know? And I know I hear you. And the other pushback is it's okay for you because you run, because you run. And you're not the normal person or the general sort of population.

24:20
And I push back at that too, because I just think that, I mean, it's not about running per se, it's actually just about moving. know, like everyone should have to be in a position where they can move how they want, but that's actually not the reality for so many people and that's largely diet related. Oh, absolutely. You know, the very first lever that we always pull in any type of metabolic health, and I would group eating disorders in that for absolutely, is nutrition.

24:45
Nutrition is the most powerful lever you can pull. And then certainly movement is important. And even for reasons other than metabolism, mean, getting outside, getting fresh air, your circadian rhythm, you know, but having a healthy heart. And your muscle is the biggest depositor of glucose. When you're moving your muscles, you're going to keep your blood glucose down and keep insulin levels low. So that's very important. But yeah, it's very strange. seems that people are perfectly fine with people eating cereal for breakfast and Doritos for lunch and takeout pizza.

25:15
But the fact that I have ground beef for breakfast and a steak and butter and, you know, some fruit or sourdough to round up my diet, my heart's going to explode. Yeah, I know. It is. It seems like a back to front kind of world. Now, Michelle, I know that for a period of time throughout your recovery, like how long would you say it, like from age 12 to what age could you say it's taken you to sort of get to this?

25:43
this point. wasn't vegetarian. Wasn't there a vegetarian? Yeah, for short period of time. for like six months-ish or so. And that destroyed, you know, I'm pretty careful to monitor my ferritin as someone who's very athletic. And I've never seen a bigger drop than when, you know, and well, we know too about iron. Iron is the number one mineral deficiency worldwide. And what are we eating? We're not eating as a population a lot of

26:12
burger patties and steaks and organ meats, we're eating a lot of grains and nuts. What grains and nuts have phytic acid? Well, what binds with iron? Fiber and phytic acid and tannins and other things. yeah, so I was diagnosed at 12. And then I would say up until I really transitioned my diet, it got a bit better in my 30s. You have a job, you have a partner, you have some good support. But yeah, didn't change how I ate until I was 36. I'm 41 now.

26:42
And what was the impetus for you to transition to how you eat now? Oh, man. So I wanted to qualify for the Olympic trials and the marathon in 2019. So I was training a lot. You had to run under two hours and 48 minutes at that time. And I was working at a hospital in acute care in Portland, Oregon. And it just seemed like all of a sudden my running wasn't going very well. I was recovering. My anxiety got a little worse. I was more achy.

27:09
And you reach out to, some friends, some doctors, sports dietician, and everyone told me, maybe you're not eating enough. Maybe you need more carbohydrates. And I was like, well, I'm eating 350 grams of carbs. That's a lot. So they're like, okay, I'm dedicated. Let's do this. So I was eating 400, 450 grams more. And as you can imagine, that didn't go particularly well. I had all my labs run, nobody talked to me about fasting insulin, even though my blood sugar was stable. I had so much insulin on board that my blood...

27:38
I literally was driving to work, I kid you not, and I had to pull over because I started, I couldn't see, was sweating, just sweating. was like, am I getting sick? What's wrong with me? And then the final like come to Jesus moment, where I was working at the time, I floated, meaning, you I covered different floors and I was covering oncology and we had a really young patient pass away. So it was just kind of an awful day. Came home early, fell asleep on the couch and woke up at like 2.30, almost three in the morning. And I remember just standing there in my living room.

28:08
and like my joints kind of hurt, I was sweating. And I was like, I don't know what to do. I'm out of answers. I'm a nutrition professional. I can't manage my own health. I had tried, you know, increasing my calories. I had tried medications. I had tried some weird stuff. And so I'm just sitting there like, I don't know what to do. And so I drove to the gas station, got a bunch of ice, put it in the bathtub and like three in the morning, I'm crying in an ice bath. And...

28:37
So my wife came in and was like, we should do something different. And it's funny, cause you know, you don't think in moments like that, like, wow, this is going to be a pivotal turning point in my life. You just think like, oh my God, my goals are over. I spent so much time and years of my life trying to be fit physically and cardiovascularly for this marathon training. And so I was just like, yeah, I'm done. I'm totally done running. Cause I was just broken. I was so anxious. I was calling out of work. I was in so much pain. was...

29:05
taking oxycodone, everything was a mess. And so that next day, I remember thinking like, well, if I'm not gonna run, maybe I should eat less carbs. But just so you know how deeply ingrained this is, I was scared. I was like, oh no, you all these dieticians told me like, oh, you're gonna be exhausted. You won't be able to function. And so I originally thought I would do a ketogenic diet and ended up doing a carnivore diet for 30 days. And...

29:31
like you were talked about with eating disorders. My wife was like, this is terrible, it's gonna set you back. This is eating disorder and we thought about it. She cried and I felt bad. But I was like, I don't know, I just have this intuition. Like I just need to try this. And the first week was awful. Because I was going from so many carbs and so my poor body was just like, whoa. But thankfully, you know, I stuck it out. And then that next week, I'll never forget just like, I sit in a meeting and being like, oh, I wasn't hungry.

29:58
I was definitely weird in the hospital, because all the dieticians are eating the oatmeal and their bagels, and I'm eating this beef and butter at like 10 o'clock in the morning. But I felt calm. I started to feel present. I started to feel like I can't think clearly. It was very rare for me to sleep through the night without like, know, Benadryl or NICOL or something. I slept through the night. And then on the third week when I came home, my wife actually beat me home, which is unusual. And she said, like, I want to talk to you. And so I was like, I don't know. What did I do? Who died?

30:27
And she just said, I don't know if I like this way of eating, but this is the best your anxiety has been in the 11 years that I've known you. Wow. That's huge. And who was it that, like, what was it that got you thinking carnivore actually, Michelle? because at that time, so when was that? It was five years ago. Yeah, 2019. So yeah. Yeah. So as opposed to doing keto, going carnivore, actually, when I decided I wanted to go basically low carb, I started to do some research.

30:56
And of course, you know, on social media, I saw, I came across carnivore and I was like, that is the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen in my life. I grew up in Texas. I like meat. you know, I appreciated meat, but I mean, maybe I beef once a week. I ate a lot of lean chicken, egg whites. And, but as I'm looking at these people, you know, scrolling through, I'm like, my goodness, these women look really healthy and they look really happy and I'm not healthy or happy. And so I reached out to a few people.

31:25
on the community and said, hey, this is who I am. This is what I'm doing. Can you give me, know, is this actually working? Are you really doing this? And I'm so grateful. These people, they have no idea, you know, like it changed the trajectory of my life. They've said, yeah, this is what I've been doing. It's been great. And that's when I was like, all right, let's, I had nothing to lose. I think sometimes in life you have to get to a point where you're just like, I'm such a mess. And my thought was, okay, clearly I'm in a lot of physical pain. Let's get that better.

31:53
like the protein has to be helpful for my muscles. And I've always known that, you know, me, especially like the ruminant animals was high in iron. So I'm like, well, let's just do this, you know, for 30, let's flood my body. And I feel like the worst thing that could happen was like, well, if I get a few weeks in and I'm just miserable, then I can go back. Yeah. Nothing is said in stone. What's your protein intake? Like adequate when you jumped on that with, with all of the carbs. I mean, you mentioned you eating like, you know, lean chicken and egg whites and stuff, but was it still rather low in?

32:22
Yeah, I probably didn't get more than about 80 grams a day. mean, which seems, know, I'm like five, seven. But I was running a lot, you know, a very, very heavy, intense exercise. So probably not for that amount of running, but by far not getting enough fat. Like I very, I mean, I restricted. never ate. You might have a little bit of peanut butter, a little measuring out a few teaspoons of olive oil or something. But I really, because I was told like the more carbs, the better. You know, we really skew everything towards carbohydrates.

32:52
Yeah. And what is your diet like now, Michelle? Has it transitioned much from those early days? Not a ton. Yeah. So for 30 days, I was very strict carnivore with the exception of I continued to drink coffee with heavy cream. And then after that, there was a point, it was just homework too, because I used to be running that I was, my wife casually mentioned, you should go for a run. And I was like, I can't run on low carb. And then it was like, you know what?

33:22
Maybe I will. I'll... People can... Whatever, run 10 or 15 minutes. That's good. And I went and ran for an hour and I was like, whoa. We were both kind of like, oh my God. And my poor wife, she's like, oh, this will be great. You'll be a recreational runner. And I stumbled across Zach Bitter who runs 100 miles and 50. I was like, what if I'm an ultra runner? What if you go to the other extreme? Yeah. She was just like, oh God, help me. She's wonderful. She's like, why don't before... Why don't you make sure you're okay with this?

33:51
So what I do and what Zach does in coaches is we use carbohydrates very specifically and strategically. Most athletes, most runners are using carbohydrates all day before running, after running, during running. It's the kind of why is any marathon or overweight? A lot of women I worked with, not necessarily like the elite pack, but you're eating so many carbs, you're suppressing your body's ability to actually burn fat.

34:18
So we do is how do we teach our body to burn as much fat for fuel as possible with the lower carb diet, fasted runs, then we use carbohydrates specifically and strategically to refuel muscle glycogen. You you want to defend muscle, liver glycogen and specifically for performance during race day. Yeah. Yeah. Nice one. what does your, do you have a strategy when you train with carbohydrate versus racing? Does that look different for you?

34:46
Yeah, you and I do like to practice what I'm going to do in a race on those really longer runs. Like I'll actually do that tomorrow. Tomorrow I'm hoping to get close to a marathon. which between 25 and 26 miles. But you even like I did a 50 mile race this past November and you know, people are getting up and have pancakes. Like I think I had 100 calories maybe before the race, you know, a cup of coffee, a little bit of MCT oil, because I'm not, I'm not depending on those calories to fuel my run.

35:13
You know, and so what I do, and this is what I would do during long training, is I will run, once again, coffee, MCT, just fat. And so when you go into a run fasted, now I'm able to tap into my stored body fat. Now about five-ish miles in, then I'm going to start taking in some carbohydrates because you're going to get such a minimal insulin response that you will continue to burn your body fat, but then you can also defend the muscle glycogen. So, and because I'm so fat adapted, I mean, some runners have...

35:42
100 plus grams of carbs an hour, I need much less, between 25, maybe a little bit more carbs an hour. So I just kind of split that up over however long I'm going. Yeah. And do you replenish post-loathe? Is that when you have your sourdough or fruit, if you feel like you want something? Yeah. Yeah. So I almost always have carbohydrates paste run with that post-run meal.

36:05
And then if I have a very hard training like tonight, since I'm going a long way tomorrow, I'll also have some sourdough or some carbohydrates. So my carbohydrate intake on any given day, I mean, I guess if I'm like, you know, in between races that I'm taking time off, it might be zero. But normally it's between like 50 up towards 100 grams a day. Yeah. And you know what, like when you compare that to the sort of standard, I mean, for what it's worth, New Zealand's nutrition data is

36:34
so old, like the last time they cared about nutrition was in 2008, 2009. That was the latest, that was the last survey. even back then, before you had so many more of these sort of snack foods and a lot of messaging around plant-based diets like...

36:47
The average carbon take, I think, was like 326 grams a day. It's more than that in the US. It's closer to 33. And you know what's wild is we figured how many carbohydrates that I actually take in during my entire 50-mile race is less than what most people eat in a day. was like 221. That's crazy. And I hate it. I just don't feel very good. I'm going to be sick as a dog because my stomach's not used to all that. But what I always tell people too, my goal on race day is very different than my goal. It's not metabolic health. It's run as fast as possible.

37:17
And so, yeah, but by doing this, by following the low carbohydrate diet daily, one, I'm much healthier metabolically, certainly mentally. And then two, like I said, you're able to burn fat. I also recover so much better. Oh my God. When I was a high carb athlete, like a 15 to 20 mile run, you'd just be wrecked. And now like I have to be able to do that and come back the next day and do 10 or 15 more miles. Yeah. Yeah. Which is crazy. Like we, I think I mentioned to you on an email that we've just finished doing a multi-stage race.

37:47
And I think I calculated our carbon take for that. It was like 264 K over six days was maybe about, it was about 25 grams an hour as well. And I had my best run was actually the 83 K day. And again, following that and, but we just relied on being in camp and like having more food there and getting our calories there rather than calories on the run, because it's just, when you put

38:16
you're trying to chug down a lot of food when you run, you just put GI issues in the mix and on a long day, day after day, holy crap. That literally. Statistically, they did a study that most people drop out of ultra races due to GI issues, not even cramps or fatigue. It's amazing since you've competed in these. The first time I did an ultra race,

38:38
I could not believe, because I'm from the marathon world, right? Where you're like grab and go. People would just be sitting down, eating, to the break. I'm like, what? We're in a race. What are we doing? But when you need to eat less fuel or take in less fuel, it's much quicker and you're not going to potentially have that GI issues. Yeah. Yeah. Completely, Michelle. So, you know, I could talk to you about running all day. Who is your coach, by the way? Zach. Zach Vitter is Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. He's such a great guy. But I do like...

39:07
I do want to sort of just gear the conversation back towards the health conversation because you're such a powerful advocate for low carb in this space. Now, did you set up America, the American Diabetes Society? I posted about that and it was quite hilarious because people are like, hang on, they're sponsored by Coke. And I'm like,

39:28
No, no, no. That's the American Diabetes Association. Yes, yes, it's quite different. So, I mean, I can sort of guess what the impetus for this was, but I mean, you sound pretty busy. So, to add this to your schedule of things that you're doing, it's quite a thing to take on, I think. Well, I am grateful. Dr. Barry, Ken Barry actually sent me a text and said, hey, do you want to help change the world? And I was like, aren't we already doing that?

39:54
And he said, I want to start this American Diabetes Society and I want you to be the lead dietician. And I honestly, when he first texted me, I didn't necessarily know what that meant or entailed. I was like, okay, count me in, tell me more. And no, it's been fantastic. It's a 501C3. We originally raised over a hundred grand to get it started. And so it's Dr. Ken Berry, Ben Bickman, Eric Westman.

40:18
Tony Hampton, Mariela Glant, who is my boss at Una Health. And there's three other dieticians, Shannon, Shannon Davis, Shawna Hussin, and Temple Stewart, all just, our goal being like, do we really help people with this very simple, straightforward, science-based message? And I appreciate that Dr. Hampton even said like, hey, look, we needed to call attention to diabetes. mean, the American Diabetes Association did that.

40:46
but they're behind on the science. Like they don't even take a nutrition stance. How ridiculous is that? That is, I know. They appear very agnostic and I'm like, you just cannot be that way. Like- No, I mean, we work specifically now through Ona Health and 99 % of my patients have type 2 diabetes. And it's, I had a guy, his A1C was 12. mean, blood sugar is in the 400s. And we completely just, and he was great, you know? He was like, all right, just tell me what to do. And we give people this two page flyer and how it's different, which is really cool.

41:15
You know, if you have diabetes, you go to your doctor, get some meds. All right, see you in six months. This is the endocrinologist takes you off meds. You're meeting with the dietician tomorrow and you're gonna text her every day through the app. And they're gonna meet with me weekly. So every day they're saying, this is what I'm eating. These are my blood sugars. So we get to track them daily. And that way it's like, oh, I had a big bowl. I've had six different people be like, I ate chicken and their blood sugar is high. And I'm like.

41:39
fried chicken. Oh, God. I it's also reversing because they're like, I'm really hungry. I can't I hate chicken. I'm like beef, butter. They're just people are so afraid of these foods. They've been told they're bad. can't have them. Yeah. And so you get people eating these high fat foods. That guy with his A1C of 12 today, it's 5.4 in less than six months. Yeah, it's amazing. And he was told he's like, the doctor told me I couldn't reverse type 2 diabetes. I was like, once again, you have a disease of carbohydrate toxicity. We remove that.

42:06
The human body, is something I will, I also love saying is your body and your brain, their capacity to heal is astronomical. Sorry. There's another protecting us from the Amazon driver. I have an exciting package. Yeah. It's not even for me. It's looks like it's for an April Jackson.

42:31
I know that that is very, come here, puppy. It's a very hard life being. Come here, come here, come here. Come here, here, here, here, here, here, come here, here, here, here, come here,

43:01
And be like, that's another thing I say, we are not going to medicate or moderate ourselves out of chronic disease. You can't do it. We've shown it's not only been an astronomical failure. mean, it's well, it depends who you ask. If you ask the food companies and pharmaceutical companies, it's been great. We're all profiting and buying yachts and, but as from human health, it's been an absolute disaster. Yeah. I totally agree. Michelle, not really a tangent, but I'm curious. How do you feel about GLP-1s?

43:30
Do you have an opinion? I'm sure you do. we all do. worry. I worry. There's a saying that you can't cheat biochemistry. Yeah. You know? And I will say that people have said like, hey, look, and I know doctors have said, I have a patient, I used it with them for three months. There was a very specific strategic plan. And but my overwhelming experience is that isn't the case. People say like, oh my gosh, this is going to cut my cravings, help me lose weight. But I mean, Dr. Ben Bickman, they just.

43:58
They published a study that one, a lot of that weight is bone and muscle. That's terrible. Two, a lot of people aren't adjusting their behavior. And three, some of the side effects are gastroparesis. Your stomach isn't working as well, nausea. And what they've also found is the fact that it's kind of turning off that food noise. Well, it's turning off your ability to like care about things. People are coming out with like severe depression, like kind of, and it doesn't go away when you stop taking these healthy ones.

44:26
And also, I just saw the quarterly report for Ozempic. How much do you make this quarter of the year is over $4.2 billion. So I think what we're going to see in 10 years is a lot of GI issues and brain issues and other things. We know now, Dr. Ben Bickman, there are other natural things you can do to help your body's own ability to produce GLP-1. Yeah. Yeah, it's super interesting, isn't it? Because I was listening to something this morning.

44:54
And one of the concerns that the person that was talking about it, they have is, I mean, to your point, like if you don't manage diet and strength training and exercise alongside GLP ones, your, you know, massive muscle mass, bone loss, and you're right in 10 years, those vanity pounds that the people that take it who have like 10 pounds in, there are a number of people, as I understand who are taking it, you know, almost as a shortcut, I will just say.

45:23
that will end up psychopenic because there hasn't been behavior change. And that's the critical thing really, And we just don't know. Those went to the market before we knew any long-term studies. it's just, I think it also contributes to this, something that I just hate about society is we want it so quickly that we are unwilling to work and to sustain for it. And that will never last. That will do nothing. It doesn't matter if it's your health or relationship business.

45:50
you have to be willing to say like, am committed to this, I'm going for this. And when we mess with our body's biochemistry with anything, you're just, you're asking for consequences. And so, and I just, it's rare that a doctor is gonna sit down and say, you know, there was a guy who was blind, like it hit his retinal nerve, you know, that's very rare, but it matters to that guy, he can't work anymore, right? So I think just people, it's like giving type two diabetic insulin, does someone sit down with them and say like,

46:16
Your body's going to store fat. You're never going to get off insulin. I'm eventually going to have to cut off your leg and you're going to have heart failure. Is that okay with you? Or did they just say like, okay, keep eating carbs and we're going to give you this medication. You know, worries me a lot to be honest with you. think, and I think it's not even now, I think, but people are like, Oh, look at me losing weight. I think it's going to be like, well, see you in five years. You know? Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I, um, totally appreciate your concerns and the

46:42
If I just circle back to the society that has been set up. you've got like, I guess the people that are on the board of, I don't know what you would call it, do you call that board? Oh, like the leaders or the executive board or whatever. you. you. So what does the end goal, so I know what the, I suppose I know what the end goal is, but.

47:10
What things have you guys sort of put in place to help? Yeah, what is the purpose? What are you doing? How can people be involved? Well, and I think too, unfortunately, and I saw this a lot in healthcare and we as practitioners see this and I'll never forget when I went to orientation, I always appreciate this. This woman said, you know, when people are in crisis and if you have type 2, like you just get this diagnosis, you have heart disease, you have type 2 diabetes, that's a crisis. Nobody ever says, I'm in crisis, challenge me.

47:39
You know? And so our goal was like, we need to make this so simple. Yeah. You know, because the messaging, you know, eat this, do whatever you want, take meds, like this. So we are really focusing on educating the public on therapeutic carbohydrate restricted diets and not just the public health professionals on that. And then so if we get the public and health professionals on the same page. And what is that? Like, once again, very simple. Eat these things. Don't eat these things. A very couple page flyer.

48:09
Simple recipes, simple meal plans, simple questions to ask your doctor, two-minute article reads that can debunk myths, very short videos to share. We went back and forth about this, but some people like studies. We can have links to studies. I don't think the general public cares that much. But I think in general, just having a very simple science-based message because I think there's just so much noise. And it's like if we can get people back to

48:38
how do we keep your blood sugar low and insulin low? And the only way to do that in my overwhelming experience and the research says we have to keep carbohydrates low. So that's the goal is just to make a simple message, one for the general public, two for practitioners. And we have some like, know, Ken and Ben, like we wanna go worldwide and stuff. I think initially we're gonna kind of be more US focused, ultimately we'd like to continue to advocate. Cause I don't have to tell you type two diabetes is everywhere. It totally is. And I feel like that health professional

49:07
the health professionals and focusing on them and their knowledge is just so, that's so important. And there are things here happening in New Zealand with some of the sort of institutes, like we've got doctors teaching doctors. And I know that that is happening elsewhere as well and in the States and stuff, but having a society sort of set up because they're not getting it through their curriculum. Like no wonder the GPs, general practitioners, family physicians don't know what they're doing because actually they never taught it.

49:37
And then they're stuck in these models of like eight minute to 15 minute consultations. I, know, what you can't, will corporate lobbying, in my opinion, needs needs to stop altogether. You're not going to, because there's just so much money. But when you have the American Diabetes Association is sponsored by pharmaceutical companies that make insulin. So why in the world would you want to promote a diet that would cause you to reduce insulin when you're getting millions of dollars from Pfizer and

50:05
know, lilies and all these other companies. So what we're also doing, this makes it, you know, gonna make it harder to go to big events and to do more stuff is we're completely, you know, donor, just people giving money, which is hard because, you know, we don't have a zillion dollar, none of us are getting paid either. That's another, you said about time, I'm like, oh Lord, not getting paid and giving time. Good business move me. No, it's good, I'm happy to do it.

50:34
But yeah, but then you get because we're not we're not owned by anybody so we can actually say what's true and what's real Yeah, where when you're owned by Pfizer or you're owned by Quaker Oats, you have to say oh you Quaker Oats, eat them in moderation. It's fine Yeah, you lie to people because your sponsors force you to do it, you know, yeah. Yeah. No, and it's yeah, I completely agree with that Michelle like You I feel like you sort of cover like the gamut in terms of both health training

51:04
You reach both the general population and athletes and do you work with both Michelle? Yeah, you know, it's honestly pretty rare that I have. I love I had a woman reach out to me that I got to do more athletic and I don't do I used to do more consults where I'd work with people on more of a continual basis. because ONA Health is keeping me very busy, I'm not able to do that anymore. But if people are interested, like, look, I'm already kind of dialed in. I just kind of need a once over or

51:32
or whatever, then yeah. I mean, I basically work with anybody that has any metabolic questions. I just always like to disclaim that I'm, you know, when I first started, before I worked with Ona and I had more time, I could see people more continuously, but yeah, now it's you kind of one and done. Yeah, yeah. And you know what? Like with your book and with what you put out there on social media and stuff, you give a lot of great sort of general information. so, and people do and can glean quite a lot from that, but I think sometimes they're,

52:01
they lose a little bit of confidence because they don't have a health professional to sort of bounce it off and sort of go, what do you think? Does this sound all right? And you know, honestly, the personal consults I do, that's what the most they do. They already kind of know what to do and they're like, what do think about this? And because people even get scared of carbs and it's like, no, no, no, if you're metabolic, the healthier we're active, we need to use these specifically and strategically, you're gonna feel great. Yeah. You know, or the opposite. It's like, I can't lose fat. And it's like, maybe they're even overeating. You know, it's, you can't just eat.

52:28
as much as you want, you can't have 5,000 calories a day and be like, I don't know why I'm gaining weight. So there's always a little bit of nuance. So I'm happy to help people with that. Because I mean, I'm a data nerd, I'm a science at heart. I love that. And I just, once again, I feel like it's kind of my gift of gratitude to be able to do the best I can to help people achieve their health. I love it. Michelle, a couple of quickfire questions just to finish up. Supplements, do you take any?

52:55
I do. do. So my favorite supplement right now is a product called a Unimate. It's a Yerba Mate. And it's funny because the first time I was approached with this, I was like, I don't get out of here. Because I get approached all the time. And it was a dietitian and she was like, look, this actually can help you oxidize more fat for fuel and ketones. And I'm like, yeah, sure it can. And she's like, well, how about I send you the data and Dr. Ben Bickman is on the board. And I was like, really? All right. OK. So I know Dr. Bickman. So he actually sent me some.

53:23
And I kind of put it in the cabinet and my wife came after like a week and was like, can we order some of that tea? Because she was using it for intermittent fasting. I didn't even know. She's like, it's helping. Because also it's wild because Yerba Mate has a compound called ferulic acid that actually prevents the breakdown of your own body's GLP1. So it helps you fast. And so I was like, all right. So I got some more for her and I was like, all right, if this can really help you oxidize more fat, maybe it'll help me with my running.

53:51
And so I used it for a few weeks and I was like, God, my muscles feel better. And I was like, that can't just be from oxidizing fat. Cause I'm already so fat. Pre-run, pre-run you'd have it. Yeah, pre-run and actually even use it during my long run because it has a little caffeine, you know? And so for a while I just used it pre-run and then I started using it during my extra long runs. And so then I had to like, I had to call Shannon back and be like, okay, so you might've been right, but tell me like why? Like, it can't just be oxidizing fat. Cause I'm already really good at that. And she was like, it's glutathione.

54:20
It's the liver, you know, produces this master antioxidant. So she's like, you're having less inflammation. And so now I'm like, all right, I went from like this extreme skeptic to complete. I love Unimate. I use the I just use that either the tea or they actually have like a salted caramel. It has some MCT that I put in my coffee. So I become kind of like a if you had told me at first, I've been like, really, but I love that. And then I actually use creatine now. I there's so much research on creatine and depression, creatine and muscle.

54:48
And so those are the two things. Oh, well, I guess I take magnesium at night too. Yeah. So those are the only three supplements that I take. You sometimes people come to me and they have like a suitcase of supplements. I'm like, we need to work on your diet. Yeah. You don't need a suitcase of supplements, but I do. I do appreciate supplementing strategically. No, I love that. And what's your favorite meal? You know, I'm so simple and boring. Like it sounds so silly just to say ground beef and butter, but like

55:12
You know, if I'm, Korean, my wife is traveling, like that's what I'll do. I love how it tastes. Get a good sear on it. Um, you know, I guess if we're going out somewhere, like a nice steak is really nice, but if you just left me by myself, that's what I would do. And it sounds really boring, but I mean, you know, I'll put some garlic or onion, but just ground beef butter and a piece of sourdough with butter. Oh yeah. Delicious. There is salt in there, right? You've got some salt on there well. Lots of salt. I should mention that salt is so important. I don't talk about salt nearly enough, but I do take a lot of salt.

55:40
Yeah, amazing. And then who are your mentors, Michelle? mean, we've talked about a few, you know, Ken Barry, Ben Bickman. Like are these the people who have sort of inspired you along the way? Like what, are people that you also look to to for sort of mentorship in this space? Yeah, you know, I met Zach in early 2022, Zach Bitter, and he's such a smart human, just beyond the running, you know, he knows so much about metabolic health. So he is one, he, would say,

56:07
him and then somebody that I text frequently, especially when I have difficult patients, or not difficult, not like they're me, difficult, like challenging health issues. Nick Norwitz is somebody who I, him and I co-wrote a paper on anorexia a few years ago and he's just a brilliant young man. mean, I think he had his PhD by the time he was 21 and was just truly a genius. And so he, you know, I can, I can text him from anything about, what do think about this APOB to like,

56:36
What about this visceral fat reading? You know, like anything. And, you know, and they're also really good people like Dr. Berry, Dr. Bickman. I mean, everybody is like a genuinely good human. And then, yeah, my other coworker, you know, Shannon Davis is just having other metabolic dietitians that understand insulin resistance, that understand low carb has been really great. Yeah, that's amazing, Michelle. And, you know, really from talking to you over the last 45 minutes, I'm getting that real. You're so authentic. You're so genuine.

57:05
And I mean, it just completely comes through. So it's really exciting actually to see the sort of how things evolve over time and how things gain traction. And when you set up something like the American Diabetes Society, yeah, sure, it's US based, but all of these things have flow on effects. know, like the research, the voices, they all have flow on effects. That's what I always tell people because people are like, and I get this too sometimes, I'm like,

57:33
There's so many negative voices, we're such an unhealthy world, it doesn't matter. But when you think about, when you change your health, there's a ripple effect. Everybody I counsel, the people they see, you affect your family and then your community. And then that's how you change the world, right? It starts with you. And so that's been a cool thing to see, because sometimes I'm just like, oh, it's so hard. And then I'll have someone text me or message me on social media and be like, my god, your book changed my life. And it's like,

57:59
I guess we'll keep going. Sometimes the vegans and the traditional dietitians, they come out like swinging. I'm too old, I'm too busy. just... That's good. Yeah, I completely appreciate that. Michelle, where can people find you? Oh yeah, so my website, thedietitiansdilemma.net, please feel free to email me through there if you have some basic questions or you want to set up a consult on Instagram at runeatmeatrepeat.

58:26
on X at Michelle Hearn RD. I do occasionally get on Facebook at Michelle Hearn. That's probably my hardest one to get a hold of me. But then I'm honored if you'll check out my two books, know, The Digest and Phlema is my first book and I wrote a children's book, The Fox Family Food Fight. Oh, amazing. I did not see that Michelle. Little Freddy Fox gets type two Foxabedes and the Fox edition isn't particularly helpful at the Foxbiddle. it's a...

58:51
That is so very grateful. got so mad when they came out with drugs for kids with type 2 diabetes. And so I got it fully funded, this book. anything I make off that book, I'm able to donate. I have a charity, The Protein Project, where we buy it from a regenerative farmer and beef. And it just goes straight to our food pantry here in Vancouver, Washington. That is amazing. Michelle, thank you so much for your time this afternoon. I really appreciate it. And I'll put links to all of those things in the show notes.

59:20
Keep up the good work. Thank you. Thanks so much for having me. It's wonderful to meet you.

59:37
Alrighty, hopefully you enjoyed that. I love chatting to people who really go against the grain, so to speak, and really see success and thrive. There is just so many more than just one way to skin a cat, right? So give her a follow on Instagram, absolutely check out her book, and of course, the American Diabetes Society as well. Next week on the podcast, I'm stoked to bring to you a conversation I have with

01:00:06
Dr. Claire Badenhorst. Until then though, you can catch me over on Facebook @mikkiwillidennutrition, X, threads and Instagram @mikkiwilliden or head to my website mikkiwilliden.com. All right team, you have the best week. See you later.