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Hey everyone, it's Mikki here. You're listening to Mikkipedia and this week on the podcast, I speak to returning guest, long-term strength and conditioning coach and my great mate, Darren Ellis. Darren brings decades of hands-on coaching experience in a no-nonsense approach to training, fat loss and long-term health. We dive into some of the most commonly misunderstood elements of fat loss, from training style and frequency to mindset and habits.

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and why the basics still matter more than the latest trends. We also talk about the rise of entertainment fitness, including high rocks, which full disclosure I love would never probably do, and Darren decidedly does not. And this just makes for a great discussion on what truly moves the needle when your goal is body composition change, and why chasing novelty might be the very thing holding you back, or not.

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If you've ever felt confused about cardio vs strength, fasted vs fed training, or why fat loss feels harder in your 40s, this episode is full of practical, experience-based insights you'll want to revisit again and again. And Darren is the strength and conditioning coach for Monday's matter, and the next round for this kicks off Monday 28 July.

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Registrations open to the public Monday 21st of July, so be on the lookout for that. That is less than one week away. For those of you unfamiliar with Darren, he has an aim to share what he's learned with as many people as possible, teaching them that there are no shortcuts with exercise, but that it can be achievable and even fun with good coaching and a supportive peer group. He is a regular contributor to a variety of popular print and web-based

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Health and Fitness magazines. He's a public speaker and consultant to sporting organizations, businesses, universities and television. He has a master's in exercise physiology. He brought CrossFit into New Zealand and is now has his own business working online and in person with clients. So absolutely you can touch base with him over at darrenalice.coach and connect with him to sort your training goals.

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Before we crack on into this week's episode though, I would like to remind you that the best way to support this podcast is to hit the subscribe button on your favourite podcast listening platform. That increases the visibility of Micropedia and amongst literally thousands of other podcasts out there. So more people get the opportunity to learn from guests that I have on the show, like Darren Ellis. All right team, sit back or jump on your bike or put your earpods in and enjoy the conversation I have with Darren Ellis.

02:56
Darren Ellis, friend of the show, strength programmer for Monday's Matter. you have, is it strength and conditioning is what your masters is in? Or is it general awesomeness? Yeah, they should have that as an option. If universities want to stay relevant, Exercise physiology was the masters and exercise science. I think it's called some...

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something like bioenergetics now, they've gotten fancy. is, that that reminds me actually of quantum, what's it, is it quantum nutrition or quantum medicine or something like that sort of thing? Yeah, what the heck is that? I'm not sure. However, I did interview Dr. Mike, I'm going to say Twyman or something, super interesting guy. yeah, an actual doctor who's sort of just gone into

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that and I should know more about it, but I do believe it's about circadian rhythm and mitochondria and all that. Okay. All right. long as it's not parallel universes and we'll heal that version of Mickey 537 and somehow bring it through the Marvel space-time continuum. No, but maybe, maybe that's somewhere else out there. That's possible, right? AI might figure it out. Exactly.

04:17
Darren, you've been on the show, I've got to say at least twice, if not three times, one of my favorite people out there in real life and on the internet. And what I don't see you do is get caught up in all the controversy that seems to rear its head. And so it always comes down to interpretation of literature, the importance of preclinical versus human clinical trials.

04:47
100 % understand that, but also outside of the science, what we see standing sort of the individual in front of us and what they require for their own health and performance and in overall goals. And I've just really noticed a complete shit fight actually over the last, I would say, maybe three months where people are just coming down hard on certain individuals for their recommendations in part because I guess

05:16
the reasoning behind the recommendations isn't the solidified and stone science that it could be, I guess. don't know, but it all just, but it can, if you get too down into the weeds, it can sort of get, it feels a little bit ugly actually out there. But I don't see you doing any on that. Yeah, we've all got turf that we want to protect, I guess. And, you know, I've had my moments of

05:40
silently raging against the internet when I see someone doing something I don't agree with, particularly, of course, if they are getting traction and having success with it. It can be very frustrating. sort of, I know more than you. I can't believe you're making it work. It's the platforms we use and we're involved in, in the world that we're in these days, I guess. had my share of, you'd be the same, right? Maybe like looking back on on something you've written or said.

06:10
10 years ago, maybe five years ago. last week. Oh, yeah, maybe last week. And I think, you know, I was actually thinking about it before we chatted, not to tangent too much, but massive reason. I think I've said it to you before, I hope I have. I respect you so much because you're willing to change your mind. Way back to when we first got to know each other, speaking to one of your classes at AUT. And that's, you know, sort of our relationship evolved from there.

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thing you go from not trying to put words in your mouth or, but I guess a classical nutritionist, is that how you call it? Traditional? Yeah, conventional maybe? Conventional, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And you didn't let yourself get stuck in that. You were like, I learned XYZ at university and now I'm going to continue to learn and develop my own ideas. And you more than anyone.

07:05
particularly back then, but now continuing to do so, you you're always learning and not afraid to say, I thought this, but now I realize that maybe it's a bit more like that. And I think that's really important. I think many people that we know, Darren, actually are like that. If I think of Eric, exactly. This is why we all just sort of like move in the same or same crowds or same circles. Doesn't mean that we all agree on the same things, but ultimately it comes down to

07:33
to, I guess, understanding perspectives and agreeing to disagree where it's not even like a science thing. It's actually just a practical application of the science thing. And the fast, aversive, fed training is one that's gotten huge traction. And I'm actually going to ask of your opinion on that. I know what the science says about

08:01
fasted versus fed training, there's no difference actually in terms of muscle protein synthesis, hunger or appetite hormones or ability to lose weight or anything like that, albeit, in fact, it could be favorable for some people to train fasted. We always used to think it was and now it's sort of been turned on its head. But I also think, you know, when someone doing a plan like the one that you're involved in, Mondays Matter, where there's an aggressive calorie drop on at least one day of the week, if not three,

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then you're going to want to see those people, for my mind, get the wins out of their training. And a way to do that is to actually have something before you go into training. Because you don't want your training to be impacted negatively and you feel flat and terrible and then unable to recover. So that is, I think, that sort of fasted versus fed training, if you're training early in the morning, that's sort of my...

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point of view. And that's a practical application of it, not necessarily going on what the science says about it. Yeah. I've definitely gone backwards and forth on this one a lot. I always remember a quote from John Beratti. Remember that guy? Yeah, I still see Yeah. I've just started following him again recently. He's got like four kids and he's into track and field, masters competition. He's doing great.

09:28
And he had one of these statements he would say when one of his clients would say, well, you know, I always like to train fasted because I find that it burns more fat. And he would go, how's that working out for you? Maybe. And I think when he said it, he made the point by saying he would take a slightly downward glance at the person's pot belly, being semi rude, but straight, you know, look at them and go, how's that working out for you? Right.

09:57
So vaguely insulting and he was only saying that to prove a point. Is it working? So we can fall into that trap of like, think this or I'm doing this because, but not actually using any metrics or something objective to bear that out. And I personally don't like to have a lot of food in my belly when I train, but I know that it does affect energy.

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if the session was on the longer side. And in the mornings, that can be tough, right? And I know you deal with your crew all the time. I have to train at 5 a.m. or something like that. So what do I eat, if anything? And your answer tends to be, hey, if you feel like you can get away without it, then great. But maybe you need to be making sure that that first feeding comes ASAP on the back of that training session, or perhaps there's some period workout nutrition where you're sipping on some kind of something or other.

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the session? Is there something you can absorb easily? Half a banana, a yogurt, something like that. And I do think it's a spectrum. When we're, as you're saying with your training, your program, Mondays Matter, it's reasonably strict. It's not severe by any stretch of the imagination, but it's very structured and strict. And we're looking to achieve a measurable, significant outcome. And so

11:23
we do need to have our ducks in a row. There's a lot going on and yeah, that fueling and that training to make sure that they're good is important because you don't want to be coming out of the back of a workout ravenous and undoing all the good work that you're doing on the diet side of it. Yeah. And I agree with everything that you've said and think also, I think about the mindset of the person who's

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who's trying to improve their nutrition and trying to get the most from their training. And of course they know a calorie deficit is important and sometimes, you know, give someone an inch, they'll take a mile. So they're like, well, if I just don't eat before training, then I'll have my coffee after training. I'll extend it out just a little bit more. And I see a not insignificant amount of people fall into this trap. And then it is that,

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you know, to your point, the ravenous hunger sort of later on and in subsequent, if it's not later on that day, it will be later on that week, or it will be undoing all that work in the weekend as a reward for their hard efforts, which unfortunately can also go sort of a little bit sideways because to be, you know, and I've said this before, like I will have something before training for a long run because that's typically done in the morning and

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And that's pretty much it actually. Like I just have coughing electrolytes and I'm fine and I've done it forever, but I'm also not in a calorie deficit. And I have changed my practices over the years where I, 10 years ago was very restrictive and now I'm much more flexible about an eating way more than I was 10 years ago. And it's a bit of a joy really to know that you can actually do that and still see good progress with.

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elements of your body composition and performance. But it's hard to believe that if you're in this struggle street of constant restriction to then bingeing because of that. Yeah. Yeah. I would happily get up on a Sunday morning, not eat at 10 a.m., go for a two hour mountain bike, come home and have lunch. But if I was racing a 50K, I would be waking up at 4.30 a.m.

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for first feeding and having second feeding at 6.30 and ready to hit the start line for actual performance. So there's a big stretch on either end of that spectrum. so yeah, finding where you sit to, and I love what you said about it doesn't always happen on the day. Like, oh, I feel fine to fast and then da da da, but that might be great on Monday. And then Wednesday, like, why am I so hungry? What's going on? I'm eating everything that's not nailed down. And that possibly is,

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nothing to do with Wednesday, it's what you did on Monday. Yeah, your body doesn't reset after 24 hours. That's one good thing that hopefully people can take away is that, yes, what you do every day matters, but it doesn't mean that it's just that day that counts. You want to look at overall average habits and behaviors and how they are working towards or not your goals, right?

14:41
Yeah, exactly. Hey Darren, talk to me about, so I posted something on Tuesday, I think it was. And look, I've got to say like if I felt like I could move in an amazing, like the way that I see other people move, I'd be all into something like Hi-Rox or F45 classes or even CrossFit, know, or some sort of awesome looking routine that looks super fun.

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But actually, I just know the way that my body moves. I'm just way better off doing free weights machines and actually doing the really traditional quote unquote boring resistance training. you were like, yeah, that entertainment fitness is, it's things are different. So what's your view on entertainment fitness? Let's sort of start there.

15:32
Is that even what I call it? mean, that was, I got that name from someone else. can't claim it. Exertainment was the term. I I loved it, but yeah, I didn't invent it. was from somewhere else in the space. I said to someone just last week, the greatest, the best thing about group fitness is the motivation from the group. The worst thing about group fitness is the motivation from the group.

16:03
Didn't expect that either. Didn't expect me to say that. It can get you both ways. So if it's like I struggle getting to the gym, I lack motivation, I need someone to push me. I like having friends around me or just the social factor of other people. I am uncertain about what to do. So having a coach to tell me what to do is great. But then on the other hand, I...

16:31
find it hard to speak up when I've got an eight pain niggle injury. I struggle to throttle back when I've had four hours sleep and I'm a bit worried I'm going to lose my job next month or had a fight with my partner. I don't find myself speaking up when I'm paired up with He-Man or She-Hulk over there and they're putting like another 10 kilos on the bar and I know I should probably take that off for my set.

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but I don't want to be awkward and that happens all the time. Um, and that massive issues again, similar to diet, maybe not on Monday, maybe not on Wednesday, but two months from now, three months from now, a year from now, why do I feel so terrible? Why am I now struggling to find the motivation to go on when I used to love this stuff? Why is this hurting that hurting? Um, making funny groans, getting out of bed. So it can be an issue. Um, yeah.

17:27
I could talk for hours on it. I think there's so many phenomenal factors about it. And it's just similar to the fueling before after exercise. What works for you? What's serving you? And again, trying to objectively answer that question is important. And then re-asking it on a regular basis. Because I think we forget, I'm a CrossFitter. Well, I personally did CrossFit for nearly 15 years. And then at a certain point,

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I realised that I was telling myself I was a CrossFitter and telling other people I was a CrossFitter, but it wasn't serving me anymore. And absolutely, it wasn't like that. I had to go backwards and forwards and really think about it and struggled with it. I owned a CrossFit gym. So it's not like I could just stop doing it. What was it? Was it the injuries? Was it lack of recovery for you? What was your sort of... Yeah, a lot of things. So I was trying to compete at a high level. So it's very important that that and it's...

18:24
it's something that CrossFit struggles with is that there's two separate arms. There's the competing performance side of it and there's the health and fitness side of it. Unfortunately, many, many, many gyms, and I will stand to my ground on this one, too many gyms confuse the two. So the very people we're relying on to coach us and help us make that distinction aren't making that distinction. They might even give lip service to it, but they get caught up in the hype of this.

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elite performance stuff and that's often it filters down in the programming. And yeah, just 40, 50 year old mothers of three with tight hips and an ankle injury from netball or something shouldn't be doing 100 box jumps in a workout and they're like, and it's just, you know, again, I'll just live and die on that sort of thing.

19:22
That doesn't sound like a very popular thing to say, to be honest. Because suddenly you're, I guess, because you defined a particular group and then was like, need to do something different for these people. Do you get pushback on that, kinds of Oh, for sure. I was, again, earlier on, I was the one pushing back because I would get this sort of resistance and I'd be like, no, no, it's fine. Of course we don't have to do 100. We'll do 30.

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And then you turn your back and that person, of course, gets caught up in the hype and they start trying to do the 100 anyway. So the last few years of owning my CrossFit gym, what I was trying to do was make it cooler to properly scale. And again, lip service, scale as needed is the backbone of CrossFit programming. And we all say it and we all spout it, but we don't necessarily follow it or push it correctly onto our clients. And that's just where it...

20:16
falls down. So the message is right and it's clear, it's just not actually applied because it's tough. Because again, human psychology saying to someone, Hey, it's totally fine. This is a group workout. You come in and we'll change everything about the workout and where you go. They hate that. They hate it. They'll put up with it for two weeks and then they'll start to feel like a bother. They'll come in and they'll, the part-time coach has forgotten that

20:44
their shoulder is an issue and they've given them something else to do. Oh, sorry. Coach B my shoulder. Oh yeah, shoot. I forgot about that. And it just starts to really start putting nails in the coffin. And then that person either quits or they, and I've seen this as well. They say, F it. And they just pick up the heavyweight anyway. And they literally blast their injury instead of like, they prefer to do that rather than.

21:09
what's sensible, they don't want to be a nuisance. It's absolutely mind boggling. But then we think about human psychology and we're like, yeah, of course. Yeah, I can totally see. Humans are weird. So I don't want to just say that group fitness is only for the younger crew, but certainly I've seen countless gyms stay with the same group of 20 and 30 year olds and they just keep churning. Whereas Humble Bragg here, what I noticed was my gym,

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average was getting older. And that may have been helped by the fact that I was older too. So I was, I was living that message a little bit, but we had better retention. The program was designed for the long term. And so I had less drop off, but I think I was also not attracting a younger crowd as much either. So our average kept coming up, which I think is, was a bit of sign of success. If someone joined at 32, it should still be working for them at 42. Instead,

22:06
that person would leave at about 38 and we would get a new 32 on. that seemed to be a problem. Yeah. Well, it's interesting you say that because I've got one of my best friends who's like my sister, she goes to CrossFit, our new market and she's been Tess. Yeah. And she's been going there for I'd say eight years now or it's got to be an eight. And like to your point, like I believe like one of the, like maybe the owners or the director or whatever, he's not a young guy.

22:36
Um, super fit. year or two, year or two older than me. got a good crew of older, um, athletes. And so they've got solidarity there. They've got, yeah. So, I get, so if anyone's listening to this going, Hey, Darren hasn't described my gym. I mean, they're out there. The, the ones that, but I guess to your point, there's a lot that doesn't seem to. It's rare. It's rare. Now, can you comment on other programs at all? Like, do you have knowledge around?

23:05
F45 or what is the other one? What is a B, BFT? BFT, yeah. Do you know much about Yeah, they're all quite similar. One thing I love about them is they actually, it's another reason why Hirox has been quite successful, is they have removed some of the skill component that we've inherently seen in CrossFit. So there's no handstand walking, there's no heavy barbell snatches and...

23:33
some of the trickier skill-based movements. And that has opened it up a little bit more to the broader public, which I think is great. But again, going the other way on the spectrum, what that often means is simpler movements done at higher volumes. So your classic burpees, your box jumps, and plyometric moves like that, which aren't really designed to be done for higher reps by a less skilled population. In a way, we're getting

24:03
attracting a less skilled population or less fit, shall I say, and giving them what they need in terms of less skilled movements, but then doubling down on the amount of them and causing some of the same issues in the first place. Out of all of them, high rocks would appeal to me much more than anything else. Yes, got that running in there. Yeah. Also, to your point, I looked and went, I mean, I'm not going to be great, but I could ski erg and I could push a sled if I needed to.

24:32
And I could do the wall balls. I'd be terrible and I'd be really slow. But for all of the people that I see doing it, I don't even know that I would be that self-conscious about that because it feels like it's really sort of appeals to a lot of people. Albeit, was listening to, I was chatting to a client this week and they were like, Hirox gets a lot of hate. And I'm like, really? Like, is it just that we like to be outraged by things these days? Like it really surprised me actually.

25:03
Yeah, a little bit, I think. The height that I see personally is from the CrossFit side of the fence. Because if I put myself in that camp for a moment, what we're seeing is something done to lower standards. the wall balls actually are the classic one that people rage about because the thing, and I was talking to someone about this the day, the number one thing that CrossFit I think brought to the space

25:32
was standards and understanding that a squat, while it can look a little bit different between people, a standard is squatting so that your hips go below your knees and then you stand all the way up. If you push your weight over your head, it's not kind of out in front with soft elbows, it's directly overhead and your elbows are locked. And that was important to gamify the exercise in the first place, but it was also a way to encourage better movement.

26:01
Um, and Horace doesn't enforce that quite to the same standard. so because it's still a race, um, yeah, CrossFit is a screaming down the, down the internet at these videos of people doing half squat warbles. Um, but even more so because it's, it'll be followed up with something like, look at, look at James, he's 63 years old and he's hanging with the young dogs. Age is just a number and.

26:30
he's doing these half squat things. And it's like to me, it would be like watching that same guy, James finish a marathon, but a taxi pulls up to the finish line and he gets out and crosses the line and they're like, look at James, he did so well. He ran all the way to, you know, 40 Ks and then caught a taxi in last two Ks. But he did most of it. If you think about it, if a wall ball is squat down to this point,

26:58
and throw a ball to this target, that's a distance. That's a distance that's required. A marathon requires the distance to be run. If you don't run that distance, you did not do the marathon and you can't say, look how hard they tried. is hilarious because I'm feeling the rage actually. You are one of these outrages. had no idea. Okay. But so, so I don't know if you know this, but is there actually a distance in high rocks or is the point to get the ball?

27:28
at the top and you have to squat or is there a... You are supposed to squat your hips below your and then hit the target at the top. but judges are all volunteers and CrossFit has the same trouble at local comps and things like that. This is thing, it's relying on volunteer labor. So they're trying to count a hundred reps and then the next person comes in, must... I might as well be crossing. I couldn't do it. Well, okay, well this gives me hope then. So I don't actually have to squat properly to do that. Yeah, you get I might get away with it.

27:54
I'm going to try this. worst judge in the lane and they'd be like, all right, lane seven, that's what I want. Because I am so, I'm all about those quarter reps, to be honest. Yeah. And I like the stand, you know, I do like standards. It's important, right? We talk about integrity in business and life and all that. that's all it is, is integrity is if you say you're to do a thing, do it. And yeah, imagine catching a taxi to the end of the marathon and saying you...

28:20
you did a marathon. It is kind of the same. It's just, I get that it's a big leap. Some people don't say, well, they tried so hard. Absolutely. But don't say they won or they did X, Z if they didn't do what was required to get to the end. Because if you ran 10 Ks of a marathon, wouldn't be that person ran a marathon. It would be they ran 10 Ks.

28:43
This is awesome. Yeah, we just see that a Okay, so my perspective has absolutely changed. You're so right. It is about integrity and I understand. As soon as you gave me the running analogy, it clicked for me. like, okay, I get it now. Right. I personally did a... It was an event out West Auckland years and years ago, way before this sort of obstacle stuff was a big deal. And it was one of the early ones trying... It was called like the Mule or something. It was based on a Royal Marines course.

29:11
And there was all these obstacles like monkey bars and things to crawl under. And so if you couldn't do the obstacle, there was no penalty. You just ran around it and you carried on. Oh, I wouldn't like that. That doesn't sound right to me. But at the end, they were giving out prizes. Oh no. It was a partner thing and myself and my partner, we got fourth. Right. And I went to the organizer afterwards and I was like, hey,

29:41
All three of those guys teams on the podium dodged the ring monkey bar. And he's like, oh, well, you know, it's just a bit of fun. And I was like, well, cool. If it's a bit of fun, don't give prizes to the winners because they didn't do it. And I was quite, I was quite ready. I'm all for a bit of fun. If it's fun, great. I've got no worries, but to stand them up on a podium, say they won. Here's a prize. know, whatever the value was.

30:11
when they didn't actually play by the rules, that stuff makes me Oh, I'm raging on your behalf. Totally. you know, it's a little bit that brings us into that sort of like participation versus performance, you know, what we sort of focus on. And look, I am the biggest participator, particularly now, you know, but that just doesn't sound fair to me. it's got to be a fair playing ground. So the people who want to compete get what they want from the thing that, from the event.

30:41
And that circles back into some of the other stuff we've talked about is like when you're it for health, don't fall into the trap of chasing performance sometimes because even though some performance metrics can circle back to health and they can be good indicators that you're doing the right thing, it's CrossFit and high rocks and many other things have led people to focus sometimes only on performance metrics.

31:08
at the expense of health metrics. When health metrics were the first reason they signed up for, know, no one's generally joined my gym and saying, I want to snatch 100 kilos. They'd say, I want to lose five kilos of body fat. I want to gain some muscle. I want to get a bit more cardiovascularly fit. And suddenly, three months later, those are out the window and it's, want to snatch 100 kilos. There's arguments made that, if you could snatch 100 kilos, maybe some of those other markers, health markers will come into line as well.

31:36
But often it's a short-term thing, long-term. That's where they start to deviate. As we keep pushing for performance, health tends to in that regard or decrease even. Yeah, that's really interesting actually, because this is going to sound like the opposite of what you're saying, but it is in the diet-related stuff as well. The whole, do you do it for health or do you do it...

32:05
What is your actual purpose for when you are wanting to lose weight? And a lot of people come into it with a body composition goal. But actually, and I've seen this on just, I was just reading a comment literally before we jumped on the call by someone saying, I sort of realized that body composition isn't enough for me as a goal. It's not enough of a motivator for me anymore, which is where performance goals can be great because in order to perform ideally from a diet perspective, you're going to be

32:35
having structures in place that allow you to recover and perform well, to our point earlier on in the call. But I completely appreciate what you're saying from that physical side of things. It's different. Yeah, which is actually bit of a tangent more than anything. Sorry. But it's like, no, talking about you and I involving our own beliefs around exercise and nutrition science, it's the same thing.

33:04
And quite often we need group fitness, we need a goal to run a marathon or do a high rocks or participate in a CrossFit comp as a motivator to help us make some initial progress. Maybe we need losing five kilos of body fat seeing the start of our ads as a motivator. But if it doesn't start to evolve into something deeper than that, that's where we get stuck, think. Yeah, I agree. And it's always a problem. You're not...

33:33
forever trying to achieve your marathon winning best times when you run marathons now, you? Yeah, I totally get Did you struggle with it though? a certain point, you noticed your pace was sort of not at the elite level. How do you continue to run knowing that you can't run that fast? It's the same in the gym. How, if I had a 200 kilo deadlift,

34:02
I can't do that anymore. Should I just quit? It doesn't mean that I'm not getting stronger if I'm lifting 60 % of what I used to lift. How do I stay motivated to keep going in the gym if it's not my all-time best? Well, it's interesting you say that because to your point, when running was my identity, running was my identity when I hit my best times. And then when I evolved, running became less important and I got

34:30
a lot more from it, albeit I still got a lot of those same, the things that I really appreciate about running, was still getting at the time, but performance was much less of it. But to your point, like at the time when I was running my best, I was also hanging out with lot of like New Zealand's elite runners and sub elite runners. When they couldn't run, they wouldn't. Like if they were injured, they wouldn't do anything. They would

34:54
You know, a lot of their, for them, I, at least I can think of a few, where running just actually dropped off once they weren't able to perform the same way, which is really sad actually. But then also, didn't mean the same to them, obviously, is what it does to me. So it might not be, it's not actually sad. It's just, that were me, I would be sad because of what running meant and means to me. Yeah, yeah. And for me, it's similar. it's fitness is what means something to me.

35:23
not cross-fit, so to speak. So for you, it's running, not marathon racing, or how you want to talk about it. And it can seem the same, but that's not. And yeah, if you get too tied up in it with your identity, that's a problem. As I say, time, fitness needs to complement our life, not be our life. And it would apply for running or aspect of fitness, however you want to look at it. Darren, you and I have discussed about what

35:52
as resistance training. is sort of going back to that entertainment fitness versus the quote unquote boring stuff. And- Oh no, I'm going to rant No, no, no, no. I want to hear your opinion. I love it. Which is why we're talking. you know, people, are, or like we've talked about pilates and how you need to continue to progress that. And we talked about that in a previous conversation, but what about the likes of people who really just want to do their body pump classes?

36:21
or the F45s and they're doing it in a way that they're able to recover from them. Like, is that going to be enough for them from now till they die? No. You really don't think so? Which is great. Yeah, I'm being strict about it because if they have been doing body pumps since they were in their 20s, then guaranteed it's no longer...

36:49
providing the stimulus for any kind of change in their 40s. If they've just come to it in their 40s, then absolutely it's going to be doing something and that applies to yoga, Pilates, CrossFit, anything, right? If you're new to it, then you've got a nice run of progress ahead of you. You've got those newbie gains that you get to enjoy. But at some point, if they start to run out and there's nothing provided for progression,

37:16
in whatever it is that you're doing, whether that is pump or Pilates or CrossFit, that's an issue. Of course, versus stopping completely, it's going to be better. And I'm the first to say, to what I touched on before, because we know we've probably reached our performance peaks. The last few decades of our life are about preventing the speed of decline, but you can't.

37:44
that stop it, are going entropy is real, we will die. So it's just about slowing degradation. But that's, I think why it's so hard to wrap our heads around. But yeah, it's a tough one. Because of course, I never want to poo poo on something and then have that person, well, allow you down and say, pump sucks and they quit. And they can't find anything that provides so many other things for them against social camaraderie.

38:14
Maybe it's a low barrier to entry, low, they don't feel judged or something like, know, there's so many positive things that could have that person doing it. But on paper, come back to the original question, you know, what is effective strength training? is between five and 30 reps of any exercise that is challenging by the end of the set, where you only feel you could do a few more, which is one to four more reps.

38:43
that requires you to then rest so you're able to repeat that effort, that sort of, you know, a strict definition of strength training. So I'm going to push back. And that has happened. Yeah, cool. and I'm thinking about pump, right? Granted, I mean, it has been possibly two decades or 15 years since I've done a pump class, albeit I think about it go, oh, that sounds, looks fun. But that 30 reps, like you'd probably get that in a track, right? A shoulder track in a pump class, like,

39:13
Like, do you, like, do we think that there is no opportunity to continue to progress there if you're manipulating the way? Like, because that's... No, that's what I'm saying. You can still progress it. It's just at some point, you you can't. out room on the bar? Yes, okay. And just turning up to these classes, is there a way that they are providing opportunity for different people to make different progress in short, select different weights?

39:43
Yeah, I'm all for it. if that's there, because when I went through university, 30 reps was laughable. Like it was too high, you know? So it's actually, it's very interesting that we have extended it a lot. And I guess that's only what current science is showing. Maybe there'll be a program, a research paper will come out saying, yeah, actually 50 reps still ticks the boxes. In which case I will embrace that fully. But right now I'm saying by about 30, it's definitely taking off. Also 30 is painful.

40:12
If you do a 30 rep set where on rep 30, you think I could probably only do two more, you've been in misery from about rep 16 onwards. It's burning, right? It hurts. I like the burn, If it works, great. But I think that's a lot of discomfort for some of our newer, more novice exercises. Yeah, totally.

40:40
that's a level of discomfort and pain that would make it very detrimental to sustaining or beginning a habit of exercise. Whereas 15 reps to near failure, it's only sore from about 12, but you're still getting a lot of very effective reps and a very strong stimulus. So that might be more easier access for Yeah, I love it.

41:07
So I remember the very first pump class I did, I literally used no weights, could not walk, could not walk for like three days. It was amazing. I say, because I sort of always, I mean, I know I should not be chasing and I don't, I don't, when I do my resistance training now, I, do you know what? I feel like I've really learned so much over the last couple of years, listening to the likes of you, to Cliff, to Tony Pataji, to Eric, course.

41:37
Of course, all my girlmates as well that are in this space, like I really try hard to lift in a way that makes it that I feel that, that at the like 12, the sort of either the sixth of eight reps or about the ninth of my 12 reps, then I'm really like getting that burn. But I could never do, I could never do a program that was three to five reps actually, because I just know myself, I will not lift.

42:05
hard enough for it to be enough of a stimulus for me. I'd need a trainer to be able to do that actually. Totally understand. There's a few things to comment on that. Like neuromuscular adaptation is huge. And I saw this earlier on in the CrossFit space because it was common to program around that three to five rep range. But anyone new to lifting and it seems in particular women, and I don't know what the current research is on that, but the research that was around for a long time,

42:35
suggests that females needed a few more reps on average than males to get the same stimulus and adaptation. so taking someone new and saying, you're going to back squat as heavy as you can for five reps. They could do that, but it's like there's a protective mechanism. Yes, that's me. In their CNS. It's hard, but it's nowhere near a stimulating load.

43:04
And so they go, that was all I could do. then 20 seconds later, you're like, I could go again. Whereas, whereas I'll make next to them who's been training for 10 years and very experienced that line on the floor after their five reps and they need five minutes rest. And then it's still like, Oh God, I really have to do another set. And that's the stimulus we wanted that lower. The other thing is, and this is why I personally don't do them either, Mickey. Um, there is increased injury risks. You can't argue that as the loads go up.

43:31
It's absolute load. It's absolute load on the spine and joint structures and connective tissue, but also takes too long to warm up. If I'm in a hurry or I don't have much time, which is all the time, I could go in, I could do one warm up set and then a hard set or two of about 15 reps, 12, 10, 15 reps. No problem at all. Any day. And not even much specific warm up. I could just do it. And, you know, an easy set of squats or presses, put the weight on, go.

44:00
If I wanted to do that for five, I'm going to need four or five or six warm-up sets to get ready to take that load. And I don't have the time and I sort of don't want to do that. Yeah. No, I hear you actually. It's a hassle. Yeah. So it's something, that's something else to consider. And this is for people who maybe don't know enough about the science of it, I guess, is it's just taking a program willy-nilly and then wondering why it's not working for you. It can be some sometimes simple.

44:27
logistical issues like that. It's like it just takes too long to do. That's why I superset exercise all the time because you are literally cutting the rest period in half, which might take half an hour out of the workout. I pretty much never don't superset. I'm the same. In terms of that. This morning I did five exercises for my back. I think five three times fifteens, I think.

44:55
And I did three variations on the lap pole and two variations on a row. And then I'm like, that's good. And because you know that I love to follow Jori Fett. That's another one that I love to follow. But I'm very mindful of the fact that I'm old enough to be her mother, literally. so what I do, in fact, and I know you hate this, but I'm in the gym three days a week. I know I'm going to be working my legs on one.

45:20
upper body twice. I don't do my legs more than once because of the running volume right now. And I know what I want and need to tick off in those sessions. So actually, I just use a program for inspiration. I'm like, oh yeah, that's what you did. that machine's free. I can do that. So it's not very structured. It is structured, but it's not regimented, I guess. And I think that's an important distinction.

45:50
having this overlaying plan, you know, it's like sort of that broad look at the map. But there's multiple ways you could drive to get to point Yeah, I like it. And as long as you understand that, I think it's good because that's what stops. I see again, and I've got my garage set up, but I go to a commercial gym as well. I see it's a slightly older clientele there and it was on the back of a golf club. And I see sometimes some of these retirees.

46:19
looking a little lost. And I realized it's because someone's sitting on their machine. Yes, actually. And their program says, I have to do lat pulldowns. And they've only been showing lat pulldowns. And so when someone's sitting there hogging the machine, also there's a distinct lack of understanding that you can go up and say, do you mind if I work in with you? No one says that anymore. Or if I do, they just sort of grunt and just move away, which is a shame.

46:45
this person doesn't know that they could go and do a Over to the cable stack and do a seated single arm version of it or they could use the row machine It's still a back exercise Things like that. I mean pull-ups is a bit more of an extreme change, but they that's what I did just the other day I was actually going to do lat pull downs Someone jumped on the machine just as I was walking to it. So I just walked I didn't even break stride. Yeah, I was kind of tough with myself for doing it, you know, I did you cuz I was I was

47:14
demonstrating exactly what I try and tell my clients was like, oh, and I just went straight to the pull-up machine, so the pull-up bar, and I started my sets there. Structured flexibility. It was fine. Yeah, yeah. It's so important because anything that gets in our way, especially as we get older and busier, it all adds up. And sometimes it's that final nail in the coffin. And I've felt that feeling where you go in and the gym's busy and you're like, I think I just want to go home. Yeah.

47:42
Yeah, yeah. can really work on you. If you've had a day and you're like, all right, I'm going to the gym. I'm to have 45 minutes to myself. And you walk in there and it's just carnage. just your plan just goes by the wayside. Sometimes that's all it takes to actually, there's a bottle of Shrae's at home. I'm 100%. And when you were talking about

48:02
Sometimes there's an extreme lack of, I thought the next thing you were going to say was lat pull down machines. Because in fact, I see that in my gyms. They need way more lat pull down machines than what they actually have. Hey now Darren, how I want to sort of finish off our conversation is because I sort of opened up that can of worms of is F45 enough, is body pump enough? And of course we've talked about why it isn't necessarily enough, but how do we therefore

48:31
still do what we want, but get what we need. But can we fit, can we call Body Pump, do we lighten our load there and call it a cardio session and then do actual weights on another day? Can people do that kind of thing? Yes, absolutely. And I'm going to be controversial, but I know that Les Mills asked University of Auckland to do some research on Body Pump back when I was an undergrad student to look at the strength benefits.

49:00
That research was never published. Let's just say that. That's interesting. But I still want people to do it if it gives them pleasure and it gets them moving. There's so many other benefits there. It's just that strength training involves effort to knee failure. And so figuring out a way to make that work is great. could it be some pushups at home in a separate session?

49:29
some dumbbells that you have and just once a week, twice a week, you pick a lower body exercise and an upper body exercise. do two warm-up sets and then you do one very hard set up to 30 odd reps and boom, quality. And there's been a lot of research now coming out about minimum effective dose, which I'm a big fan of and something like one to four, one to four work sets per muscle group across a whole week.

49:56
So that's, if you train twice a week, that's two sets, two sets for your, for your squat and two sets for a pressing exercise done to near failure or failure, 64 % of possible results. I'm sort of like scrambling the science a little bit, but if you imagine you get 64 % of what's possible with only two sets twice a week, that's pretty darn good. And then it was something like to get 80 % of what's possible, it only went up to about six sets.

50:26
which is training three times a week, two sets. With what I got going on, I'm happy with 80 % because it takes proportionally more to get that last 20%. And if you don't have that time, you need to accept that. If I've got time, of course I'll do more. But if I don't have time, I know it's enough, which is the trap people fall into. I don't have time. I'll do nothing. It's a baby out with the bathwater.

50:54
So if someone was doing body palm pull F45, but they found the time to do one dedicated session that fits those, that would actually help progress and improve them pretty much. What did you say? Like to a point where they could still do what they want, but actually get what they need as well. Yeah, absolutely. And that's all, that's all we really want, right? I don't want to, I don't want to take, take people's toys away still still cause lollipops.

51:23
My daughter still eats candy, but I'm trying to make sure she eats it properly too. Well, Darren, do you know what? feel like I have to finish this off with, a bit gutted because I could talk to you about this for hours, but this has been like a message of hope. Hope for the mediocre who want to do high rocks and hope for those people who still want to do body pump, which I love. you have- Average is great. Exactly. And you have-

51:53
the such a great Instagram account that really just hones in the fundamentals. No controversy. it's just, you you're just out there putting out your message. So remind people where they can find you and your app as well. You have an app, right? Fitness app? Yes, I've got a place where you can get access to some programming. New, like a 2.0 version has been hard development.

52:21
but there's still some opportunity to access some sensible programming if that's something that takes your fancy. Nice one. So where do we find you? DarrenAlice.coach is both Instagram account if you want to start there or that's the website address as well. Amazing Darren. Well, thank you so much for your time this morning. Really appreciate it. I always love chatting to you. And of course, love working with you, which is why I, you know,

52:48
love our collaborative projects and stuff. It's awesome. Wonderful. Looking forward to the next one. Thanks, Darren.

53:05
Alrighty, hopefully you enjoyed that and as we discussed he is the Strength and Conditioning Coach of Mondays Matter. He puts together just some awesome programs that really meet you where you're at regardless of whether you're a novice or an advanced lifter and he's just got so much common sense and actual knowledge in the space as well. I feel truly grateful to have him on my team. And you can find out more outside of Mondays Matter about Darren if you go to darrenales.coach.

53:36
Next week on the podcast I speak to Julianne Taylor about rheumatoid arthritis, autoimmune conditions and diet, particularly elimination protocols. It's what she's specialising in for her PhD. Really great conversation as always with Julianne. Until then though, if you're listening to this on Wednesday, there is still time to sign up to my fat loss webinar because it is taking place today 1pm in 7pm New Zealand time.

54:04
and even if you weren't able to make it live it is being recorded so jump on over to the show notes click the register here button and sign up for that and I'll send you the recording after the fact. It is unlocking fat loss success it's what a lot of us really are thinking about this time of year and I've got solutions for you. Alright team any other insights or questions or comments you can

54:30
Catch me over on Instagram threads in X @mikkiwilliden, Facebook @mikkiwillidenNutrition, or head to my website, Mikkiwilliden.com and book a one-on-one call with me. Or just sign up for that webinar. All right, team, have the best week. See ya.