00:00
Hey everyone, it's Mikki here. You're listening to Mikkipedia this week on the podcast, so to bring to you the conversation I had with returning guest and all around awesome human Dr. Eric Helms. So this is Eric's fourth time on the show and it's been over a year since we last spoke and we are chatting today about what's actually been going on in Eric's world over the last year and how his training, his nutrition,

00:30
and his lifestyle has been helping him in his return to stage for natural bodybuilding. And I think we catch up maybe 10 weeks before his first show. As always, even if you are not that interested in bodybuilding, but you're interested in health and fitness, this is a great conversation with plenty of take homes, particularly if you are interested in living your best life and getting the most out of your food and your training.

00:56
For those of you unfamiliar with Eric, at this point I'd be very surprised if anyone was unfamiliar with Eric. He is a coach, athlete, author, educator, and podcaster. He's a trainer since the early 2000s and has worked in the US Air Force, commercial gyms, private training studios, medical fitness and strength and conditioning facilities also. He's a part of 3DMJ coaching team and coaches drug free strength and physique competitors at all levels.

01:25
Eric himself has competed since the mid 2000s in natural bodybuilding, unequipped powerlifting and dabbled in Olympic lifting. He earned pro status as a natural bodybuilder with a PNBA in 2011. And of course, last time we spoke he had just attained pro status in the World Bodybuilding Federation. And he competes with the IPF at international level events as an unequipped powerlifter.

01:51
Eric has published multiple peer-reviewed articles in exercise science and nutrition journals and writes for commercial fitness publications. He's taught undergraduate and graduate level nutrition and exercise science and speaks internationally at academic and commercial conferences for fitness, nutrition and strength and conditioning. And he has a BSc in fitness and wellness. He has two masters, one in exercise science, the other in sports nutrition, and he has a PhD in strength and conditioning. He's a research fellow for AUT in sports.

02:21
He's also co-founder for MAS monthly strength and conditioning review and co-host of the super popular podcast which I love, Iron Culture, along with Dr. Eric Trexler. I get a lot of my laughs listening to the two Eric's each week, which is presented by MAS Research Review. I have links to all of Eric's contacts in the show notes if you are interested in reaching out to him.

02:47
And before we crack on into the interview, I would like to remind you that the best way to support this podcast is to hit the subscribe button on your favourite podcast listening platform. That increases the visibility of Micropedia and it makes literally thousands of other podcasts out there. So more people get the chance to hear from experts that I have on the show like Dr Eric Helms. All right team, enjoy this conversation.

03:14
Yeah, I love it. Dr. Aaron, Eric, oh my gosh, I almost called you Aaron. Here we are. It's a good name. Friday morning. I blame the cold. I blame the cold. Hey, it is cold and, you know, Aaron's good name. And it's not a problem. You know, if I was born Aaron instead of Eric Helms, would it even be different? So you might as well have called me Eric. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Nice one. Eric, now one thing which...

03:39
I'm a little bit surprised about actually is I'm not surprised to see your accolades behind you, like your degrees and your, you know, this proves to me that you are, you have your two masters, your one PhD, your three bachelor's. I don't know. probably got about four PG dips, but what the hell is that scientific thing behind like, the point of your career, did you ever look through? What is that? So this is where people, here's what we're going to, I'm going to show you the truth. So

04:07
Yeah. There are, one. First off, we have, I'll move my head. And if this is on YouTube, you can see it. If you're on a podcast, you're like, shut up, guys, get to talking. You can see there are actually five degrees behind me. Wow. Not all yours though, surely? No. I have a wife who's a real scientist. So she is literally going to be submitting her PhD in geology in the next like month. So the microscope behind me, I could claim as Mr. Science Communicator Eric Helms that it's mine, but it's not.

04:37
that is hers. But if you will look to the left of it, you will see a tripod where I film videos and that is that that just goes to show you how much of a real scientist my wife is and what I really am, which is a glorified influencer. So let's let's just be real. The tripods mind the microscopes my wife. So let's let's be clear and only half those degrees are mine. well,

05:05
What is ridiculous? couldn't even think of the name of it. What is that thing? A telescope? Actually, that's about as scientific as I, and I actually, and like you, I do have some sort of science background at some point in my career, albeit.

05:25
If I were in my office and I'm not, I'm in Dunedin, it is freezing. But if I was in my office, I also have my husband's degrees behind my head as well. do look a little bit more sort of learned with that, don't you? You know, like I'll let people assume what they want. Maybe I've been in school for 40 years and I started my academic career at two. Who knows, right? I could be the Jinky Houser MD version of sports science. You don't know though. You could be, or albeit you could also be that you're very young and you're about 62, but you look 42.

05:55
Let's hope that that's the benefit of natural bodybuilding. Let me ask you a question, Miki. Have you ever worn a lab coat? Yes, anatomy class. Nice. See, have actually, I might have in my undergrad during chemistry or something like that, but in my actual research training, my research degrees, my MPhil and my PhD, I have never worn a lab coat. So that tells you something. No, neither. Yeah. No, Sam, I sat in a room with a tape recorder and recorded people talking about things.

06:24
qualitative research was sort of how I got to where the greatness that I am now, basically, talking to people. Well, you're carrying on the tradition. I really am. So Eric, today, well, one, I'm super pleased to have you back. was looking, the last time we connected on a podcast was, I think it was March, 2024. And in the months prior, I know, months prior, I think you'd earned your

06:52
Pro card, maybe October, November 23. Is that about right? You nailed it. I got the second pro card that was available because I'm always bridesmaid, even when I actually win a pro card. The number of times I've played second or second to the overall winner. Yeah, I got my pro card at WMBF Australia, their season B show in Brisbane in October 2023. That's right.

07:16
And we had a great discussion about body, the history of bodybuilding, was super fascinating. And also, course, your journey. And then as I understand it now, you might be, what are you like six weeks out from your first show or no, 10 weeks out from your first show. 10 weeks out from my first show. Yes, ma'am. Yeah. Yeah. And I, so first, can you just give me an update on where you are with your prep? Cause I mean, obviously I've been following along with the iron culture every week. Love that podcast. and.

07:45
by all accounts, sounds like things are going super well, actually. You know, it's, it's, uh, it's culminated in from a lot of experience and planning and intentionality, but I can say that I'm, this is the best prep I've ever done. Um, it's the best piece of every prior one I've done. And it's been, uh, obviously a collaborative effort, but a very intentional one. So, you know, as soon as I finished my 2023 season, I was like, you know what? I, I had a seven week

08:15
period for my pro debut, you know, like, cause I went directly from pro card to competing at Worlds, literally doing the most competitive show in natural bodybuilding I could as a pro. And I wanted a proper pro off season. So I said, you know what, I'm going to invest everything in anything I can of my time and energy as an athlete into getting on stage 2025 as a pro and trying to see where I truly land with the proper preparation.

08:44
So I've been planning my 2025 season since the end of 2023. And just to give everyone a heads up on what's going on, WNBF Worlds is the third weekend in November in LA. And I'll be doing that show two weeks prior, two weekends prior, I'll be doing the WNBF Muscle Mayhem, which is a pro-amp competition in California that has historically been in July, but is now

09:12
Now it's in Sacramento, which is Northern California compared to LA where Worlds is in Southern California. So I'll be in California for a couple of weeks. So that'll be my second show. And then my first show, the one I'm 10 weeks out from is WNBF Taiwan, which is the biggest show besides Worlds in the WNBF. It has 400 competitors over two days commonly in the B season show they do. It's a pro-am.

09:38
So yeah, that is going to be great. I judged at Taiwan last year, so this year I'll actually be on stage. And it's really cool to see how much Southeast Asia and Asia generally is growing, not just with bodybuilding broadly, but specifically with natural bodybuilding. So yeah. That's amazing. Yeah, that's the season. How do you stay so focused for so long? Like if I'm thinking about running, like there is an event that we've got in about seven weeks time and we sort of signed up for it in May.

10:08
And even those sort of like four or five months, it's, find it, maybe this just speaks to my personality. Maybe I'm a bit flippant, but you know, I sort of get to four or five or maybe no, about two months into training. I'm like, ah, so over this. You sort of have to stay on the ball for like, what a year before you start cutting or even longer. did, was motivation, how did you sort of keep it high enough? know, this is kind of one of those things that I think self-selects.

10:37
for if someone's going to stay in the game of competitive bodybuilding long-term, there's no really other way to do it healthily, which is that, because I compete in powerlifting and strength sports and those things, can be like, you know what, 12 weeks out, let's run a strength cycle. I like to lift normally. So it's like, I'm not moving away from that goal. I'm getting stronger. And then now let's hone in and do a comp. But for...

11:02
Like the highest level powerlifters, kind of have like, okay, I'm career oriented, but that typically is a window of time. And I say it's true of most sports. Like most people will be like, yeah, I'm going to compete in my twenties and thirties. I might do the master's thing, but even when I'm competing as a master's, it's a glorified hobby. It's a serious hobby. It's a, it's a great part of my life, but it's not, I'm not a professional athlete, quote unquote. And bodybuilding is very different. Competitive bodybuilding. The, you, you, you can.

11:33
take an approach where you kind of flip the switch and contest prep, get focused and you really grind out your six month prep and then you go back to quote unquote normal life in the off season. But that can be a really actually disastrous approach to the sport because it requires so much of an alteration of the way a quote unquote normal life is to do a contest prep that the disparity

11:59
between what your life and your relationship with food looks like when you're in deep contest prep compared to the off season is something that can create this sense of restriction and restraint that drives a lot of people away from the sport. So every competitor I know who competes long-term eventually ends up living what I describe as the bodybuilding lifestyle and that qualitatively

12:27
what you do during prep and what you do in the off season look the same from the outside. And it is really just the quantitative differences, the actual energy content, the number of steps, the amount of volume you might do. But there are some like, like I eat the same lunch, the same breakfast. I go on walks at the same time of day. I train daily.

12:55
And I do that no matter what. And I have for a very long time. This is my sixth season. I'll be doing my 20th show when I do Worlds this year. And I've been lifting weights for over two decades. This is just ultimately who I am. So prep for me, there's no real change except for I feel tired and my face gets... Like eventually other people see it. They're like, oh, why is your cheekbone so prominent?

13:23
But, um, but if you were to see me in the off season, like I get up, take a walk with my wife, we go get breakfast and I make different decisions, but it's, it's still the same thing. know, I, nothing stops me from training. I train. It's just a non-negotiable. Um, so I think the, is the athletes who don't have any kind of nutritional consistency in the off season.

13:52
who then go into this more rigid tracking, who really struggle with those transitions, who bodybuilding just beats you up because it's not like you go to practice, you and you come home and then you turn off your brain. Like if you're a soccer player, you show up to your conditioning session, you have a generally healthy diet and you eat enough and you get enough protein and carbohydrates and you don't have an unhealthy diet, but you don't need to think about it that much. It's not like you're bringing soccer with you all the time.

14:22
And you finish practice for the day, you go home and you chill out. For a bodybuilder, if you try to live life that way, prep is an all-encompassing kind of experience that just takes you into a very, very tunnel vision place. And that I don't think is sustainable for most people, or if it is, it's sustainable at a heavy cost to their social life. So the way that you make it so that it

14:51
doesn't seem like it might seem to you from the outside is how do you stay focused for so long is that most of what you would think I'm focusing on quote unquote 80, 90 % of it maybe is just what I would do anyway. And then it's just thinking, all right, which muscle groups am I going to focus on? At what point do I officially start my deficit? Where's a mini cut going to happen? Where's the pre prep phase and what stage weight do I think we're going to get to versus my off season of weight?

15:19
And how lean do I want to get at what pace? It's more of just kind of game planning. Um, and then fitting the quantitative changes, uh, to that appropriately while the habits and behaviors are really kind of homogenous across the board. And that's not to say I don't eat out in the off season. think a lot of people, when they hear me say that they're like, Oh man, so you've, you've just

15:43
basically accepted a level of restriction that I would hate. And it's like, not really. Like, you know, I get breakfast with my wife at a cafe literally every day. Um, we get takeaway probably two to three times per week, but I make decisions that keep me within my quantitative targets. And I've been tracking and weighing for so many years that I can eyeball these things. And I have the ability with the experience I have to use biofeedback in a way that I couldn't when I was

16:13
in my 2009 or 2011 season. Like I know what's an appropriate level of hunger when I'm 24 weeks out versus six. Um, I know what it feels like to be in a deficit when I'm 10 kilos over stage weight or one kilo over stage weight and at maintenance. Uh, I know how hard it's supposed to feel when you're at different stages of prep. Um, and I can do things like go, know what? I need a little bit of extra food today and

16:42
have a banana versus other competitors are like, I wouldn't know how to do that. And it would turn into a binge or I just need to hit my numbers. I, know, they, they, they clutch whatever nutritional plan they have, be it macros or a meal plan, like a safety blanket or an anchor in a storm. While an experienced competitor does this thing long-term much like any high level athlete, they quote unquote know their body and they listen to their body. They can make those

17:08
I'm going to say intuitive, but it really is just pattern recognition and experience based decisions that enable them to really optimize their outcome and more importantly, not have decision fatigue and kind of have this more fluid approach. So long answer to a seemingly short question of how do you stay so focused? But I think the real answer is that there is not a

17:35
Well, I have a phasic approach. Like I could tell you, here's the recovery phase, here's my prep, here's my off season, here's my prep phase, and here's a mini cut. And I could describe to you the periodization for physique sport, which I think is ideal. Being in it doesn't feel like there's these jarring shifts and changes. There are these very subtle shifts and only the quantitative aspect of what I do. No, I love that, Eric. And I feel like, and I've said this to you before, and I talk about this, that, know, physique.

18:03
athletes really are like the, if I say extreme, it's a very, it is sort of an extreme version of really how to live lifestyle lean, isn't it? Like, you people who want to improve their body composition, like all the attributes that you described that you sort of possess because you are so skilled and practiced at it are actually things that we ideally would all sort of live by. And the way that you describe it, I don't think anyone could think.

18:31
I mean, you said you sort of naturally sort of self-select for it. And that might be true, but a lot of what you're talking about is skills, in this skills, because you've had years and years and years of, of developing those skills that you're at this point where it all feels quite natural. But at some point you were that inexperienced person. Yeah. think to clarify on the self-selection thing, um, I think it is that it's more so that you absolutely have to develop these skills. They don't come naturally, but it is only the athletes.

19:01
who develop those skills intentionally, who can stay in the sport long-term. So it's more like, it's kind of like, cause you you compared it to successful weight loss maintenance and living lean. When you look at the national weight loss control registry and you see what habits seem to be associated with these people who've successfully lost weight and kept it off. There are millions of people in that database, but it's important to remember that there's hundreds of millions who are not in that database who've tried.

19:31
Um, so it tells you what is a requisite to do it or what are the behaviors associated with success. Uh, but there are so many people who've gotten on stage in their twenties and when the, couldn't stick, I couldn't stick with that lifestyle. It wasn't worth it to me, which is totally fine. Um, uh, or I didn't want to live that lifestyle, you know? Um, like I think.

19:56
This is different for everybody, what their lower intervention point is, their behaviors, their preferences and how easy it is for them to cut down, maintain muscle mass, where do they grow best, et cetera. But most people would look at my off season physique, even at its highest body fat and go, oh bro, you're lean. And I'm like, yes, for, like, I'm below what would be considered healthy. ready to like, I could four weeks away from what would be considered a photo shoot lean for fitness industry. But

20:25
the purposes of competitive bodybuilding, yeah, it's not lean. So having the skills to do that, obviously that doesn't happen on accident unless you're just a genetic freak when it comes to energy expenditure, behaviors, as well as low body fat intervention point. But yeah, I think it's just important for people to understand that bodybuilding is a competitive version of something that was actually physical culture.

20:54
So it which was about living a very, very healthy lifestyle. And so much of that has changed because of the environmental changes in our society. So if you look at, uh, like settler societies that are still living the same way that the pre and industrial post agricultural people are living, like the Amish, the Quakers, uh, the men in those societies are on average 10 % body fat and they're eating

21:23
They're eating 35 to 3,800 calories a day and they're taking 20,000 steps on average. This is stuff that's been documented. So they're essentially walking around at their lower intervention point. They're still healthy. They're not in a status of low energy availability. They're at a high energy flux, but that is something that was, it is commonplace. And if you look at old video footage of the 1900s, there is almost nobody with obesity. And

21:53
And that's not a it's better back then or a judgment statement or a value statement. It's just to point out that when the environment changes, we change. And this has been observed in other primate species. When you put apes in captivity, they get fat over time and they eat a little bit too much and slowly slide towards, you know, metabolic issues and storage because it's actually helpful versus, you know, being a 20 % body fat as a male is better from a survival standpoint than 10%. You're not yet metabolically.

22:21
you know, at risk in most cases if you're sufficiently active and you can survive multiple winters. You know, you look at me and you're like, yeah, you look great, Eric, but you give me an ice age and you're dead. And you're right. Come to Dunedin. You'd be in trouble. I'm not gonna. And it's too cold in Auckland right now. So all that is to say, Mickey, that I think when you look at professional bodybuilders, especially those in their 30s and 40s have been competing for years. How do they do it?

22:50
Especially when they're privileged like me, I don't have kids, I work for myself, I can completely engineer my life. They have completely re-changed their behaviors, developed the skills you were talking about, and most importantly, modified their environment. I basically bring my environment with me. When I was traveling back and forth to Europe, I was training in the airport, like that. I was...

23:17
you know, taking melatonin to match my circadian rhythm with the time zone I was going to be in. I was telling people, even though we're in Southern Europe, let's go get dinner at 11 PM. I'm like, no, I'm going to be in bed by 10 PM. I really appreciate this. Thank you so much. And I'm getting up at, I'm finding the earliest open gym that exists in the area, which is not a, like 24 hour gyms are not a big thing with, with Southern European culture.

23:42
but I was finding the 6 a.m. and the 7 a.m. gyms that were open or staying in a hotel that had a 24 hour gym. And I'm getting up and knocking out my workout so that I don't have to worry about it it's done. these are just, these are non-negotiables. It's like, you know, when, when, when I hear people talk about, know, sometimes they're in the motivation to go to the gym and then, that's the first step towards sliding away from kind of my habits. Um, I get it. And that is just, it's, it's a whole other thing.

24:13
to be a bodybuilder, in my opinion, like a true kind of lifelong bodybuilder, competitive or otherwise, where it's just not an option. It's not on the table. know, it's like brushing your teeth. Yeah, it's like brushing your teeth, but I also enjoy it. I love it. And it's goal directed. You know, when you add the competitive element, it's just not, it's not even something like, I have to do it. And I, I'm going to hate myself if I don't, there's not a, there's not an exercise addiction component to it.

24:42
Like when I legitimately can't find a way to train and I can't do anything, I'm stuck on a plane or we, or I'm ill or something like that. I just don't train and it's move along. You know, I have no control over that. Um, but in all other cases, it's like, yeah, I'm, I trained and I like to train. It's my favorite part of the day. It's, who I am. I think that's a big piece of it. The identity, it's what I do. And it's an alignment with my goals. And it's not that I'm, I'm not fitting.

25:12
bodybuilding in and around my life. It's wholly integrated into my life. So it's almost hard to translate when people talk about it is the thing you're going to go do. It's like, it's who I am. It's what I'm doing. And it just is. yeah. I love it. I love it, Eric. And I love hearing you talk about it.

25:40
The way that I love hearing anyone talk about something, which that they have that sort of feeling around it. Like, I mean, I feel very similarly to training, like running, you know, it's just, or, or anything, even eating well, it's like, there's no quick, like, well, of course this what I do. Like what else, what else? Not that there's no other choice, but there's no choice in my head because I don't have to make the choice. don't know. It's just the way you live your life. And which to your point is in fact, one of the

26:10
I'm sure that I've read meta-analyses or some sort of reviews on people who are successful in the long term with weight loss. Are those people who have changed their identity in the process of losing the weight that enables them to keep it off, which is important? Yeah, there is data on that. There's risks too. think, for example, athletic identity describes what we're talking about.

26:38
people who identify as being, I am a athlete, um, in sports where they're a limited timeframe where you compete, injury can take you out of it. And especially if you associate not just being an athlete, but being an athlete at a certain level, athletic identity also predicts, uh, depression during injury because not only are you losing the ability to play the sport you love, you're losing who you are. If it really takes you out of it.

27:07
you blow your ACL out and you literally cannot play American football. And there's not really like rec leagues of American football. Or you, even if you don't get hurt and you finish your division two or division one, maybe even college career, and you don't go to the pros and you don't go to like CFL, you don't go to the next level, you're 21. You've got probably a degree in communications that you barely paid attention to because you were focused on your football career. Now who are you? You've got

27:37
another 50 years to live, hopefully at least, and you're no longer a football player and your identity was you're a football player. And the options are be depressed and be Al Bundy sitting on the couch talking about how he used to play football back in high school and college or rediscover who you are. And the thing I love about bodybuilding is there is no, unless I get, you know, in a horrible accident, which could happen and I become quadriplegic.

28:03
you know, I'll be doing bench press only cops and men's physique competitions if you know, in a wheelchair, if, if, that was my reality and I have no doubt about that. So it's kind of cool in that way in that, um, much like the original physical culturists, it becomes a lifestyle. Um, so yeah, I think, and if that's it, it fits for almost no one, but for those who it does fit, it can be a lovely thing. don't feel like I'm missing out on anything. And

28:33
and the things I would gain or supposedly gain or that other people get out of other ways of life are not things I'm interested in. So it's, you know, it works well. Yeah. No, I love it, Eric. Thank you. Thank you for that debrief. And just, I love conversations like that because I think people also it just helps remind them that, you know, when you do have, I suppose, big goals or even just, you know, I want to lose this, you know, 10 kilos before

29:02
I don't know, by next year or whatever, recognizing that actually it takes almost a complete shift. It doesn't have to happen overnight, but a lot of what you're doing actually does have to sort of become more lifestyle-like rather than just doing this thing for eight weeks. If you want it to stay that way. mean, and there is nothing wrong with saying, you know what, I don't love running enough to be clocking 40 Ks a day.

29:28
but I'm going to run a marathon. So I'm going to do that for a period. And then I'm going to get back to my two to three times a week running. And I'm to be okay with my, uh, marathon time getting worse and, and maybe running an occasional five K. Um, like there's nothing wrong with that. I, I just think that's really important, but I think when it comes to, um, being a professional athlete, trying to become a professional athlete or with the specific sport of bodybuilding, the physique sport.

29:56
This is not one you can do it. It can be a bucket list thing and you can do your transformation and you can compete in the bikini division after you lost 40 kilos and be celebrated by your family. But you also have to be aware that that getting as lean as required by a bodybuilding show is going to have an impact on you psychologically, sociologically, and it is going to disrupt your relationship with food in your body, at least temporarily. And you need to, A, have true informed consent going into it and knowing that and B,

30:26
have an exit strategy if you're going to exit the sport. Because a lot of people, uh, they kind of do the, one-off bucket list. I want to do a physique competition thing and it messes up their relationship with their body and food for a decade. Um, because they, they didn't know really what they were getting into and they thought I can just do the prep and come out and it'll be right back to normal. And honestly, even I had that experience the first time I competed and I didn't have the intention of just having it be a one-hit wonder, but this was in the era.

30:56
of like version 1.0 beta, if it fits your macros. And I was a skinny 22 year old dude who had never thought about eating, you know, like the polar opposite of your, you know, woman who had societal pressures, maybe a mother with an undiagnosed eating disorder who put pressure on her and I was thinking about, oh, I probably shouldn't have a second carrot at lunch today when she was 13.

31:24
and thinking about nutrition our whole life, getting into fitness and struggling with body image and eating disorders and then competing, which has a whole different can of worms to deal with and could potentially exacerbate that or be a good step in the right direction where now you actually have an off season, you're trying to gain weight. For me, it was like, whatever, I'll eat a block of cheese, I'll skip a day of eating, I'll have a large pizza. And then I start lifting weights and the only nutritional skills and competency I had was I need to eat a lot more, make sure I'm getting 200 grams of protein per day.

31:53
and do some basic big rocks. And then I started prep and I was like, okay, what's prep? It's calorie restriction and macros. And I was scientifically correct, but completely behaviorally ignorant and unskilled for it. So when I started doing quote unquote, if it fits your macros in 2007 for my first season, I was doing stuff like cutting a protein bar in half to hit my numbers to the gram. Oh, I'm a little bit short of my fat and I only have fat left, but no carbs. Let me just down a teaspoon of olive oil.

32:23
things that were really not good for satiety or any kind of reasonable, repeatable meal rhythm systematic approach that you and I would advise to someone, right? There was a period where I thought you would just throw numbers at people because I didn't understand the behavioral mechanisms behind all this. And I didn't see myself as someone who was ever going to struggle with weight gain because I was just a skinny dude trying to put on weight. And then I gained 22 kilos in two months.

32:51
after my first show. And I was like, Oh shit. mean, looking back, I could have probably been diagnosed with binge eating disorder, at least temporarily. And it also destroyed my self-efficacy temporarily. went from being the guy who was like, can chew iron and spit blood and just was on my way through this prep and do anything. This is incredibly empowering to then only two months after

33:21
you know, my contest season is over, seeing for the first time in the mirror, someone who's actually overweight and more importantly, leading up to that being a guy who couldn't stop himself from going to Taco Bell for the second time in the same day. When just in the last phase of prep, I was eating 1400 calories and like gritting it out and feeling like, you know what, if I needed to, I could do anything. And now it's like, or not, maybe I, you know, so it, you know,

33:49
Having that the lack of a goal, the lack of the structure, not understanding what it's going to be like when you're on the other side of that laser focused period of time. And how are you going to maintain that and realizing, oh, that's completely not maintainable nor should it be. But how do I create less disparity between the off season and in season to where they are really, really part of the same lifestyle with subtle changes primarily in.

34:16
the effect, the outcome, and also the quantitative side of it. And it took me until 2007, three seasons of competing before I was getting that. And then mastering it only happened, I would say, 2019, 2023, 2020, and this season. Yeah. And Eric, at that point in time, did you have like, I imagine you had mentors and people sort of guiding your approach. there sort of warnings of this was going to happen?

34:45
post show or anything like that, that you just maybe ignored or just didn't really think that you thought you were sort of a bit bulletproof? 22. It was honestly a, yeah. So in 2007, I turned 24. So I started my contest prep season at 23. I was young. I'd only been lifting for about two and a half years and people were not talking about post contest binge eating. The recovery diet, even the reverse diet were not things people spoke about.

35:15
You just eat a lot after the show and then do it again. This is an era where there was only one men's division, bodybuilding. Figure had just come out in 2005 and people were talking about it now. Like they talk about the bikini division, like, oh, should we be given out, you know, like general pop participation trophies? And now it's like one of the hardest divisions and you have to be really, really muscular. And it was a very different era. Evidence-based approaches to bodybuilding were

35:45
in their infancy. you know, Lane Norton was still a competitor as an amateur, you know, at this time and doing his very first shows, there was really only Dr. Joe as a voice in the space for this. So it was a complete gap. And honestly, my experience is what led to us going, we need to step into this gap. And that's why we formed 3d muscle journey. So in 2007, I didn't have a coach. I followed, you know, Lane Norton's prep guide on the bodybuilding.com website.

36:14
which was good, but I was also a little too ignorant to follow it well. And I was doing things like, I don't think I can combine carbs and fat. I'll follow the guide, but I don't want to have my insulin too high. You know, I was still misinformed. Didn't even have my bachelor's yet, right? And 2009, I hired Lane Norton to help me prep for good first part of my season. And then Alberto Nunez helped me towards the end of my season. And he's been looking over my shoulder since. And

36:43
you know, as a personal trainer and starting 3D muscle journey, I came to really understand the value of a coach that it's not about knowing science or knowing anything. Uh, it is about being able to provide a support network, communication, contextualization, especially for novice competitors, helping them understand what to expect, even if they don't have the experiential knowledge. So they just are not constantly like, is this normal? Is this normal? Oh my God. Like,

37:11
Where should I be? What should I expect? So important. And being objective as your brain becomes progressively less objective and less capable of processing effectively. And that is something that supersedes your level of knowledge or experience. I really value the input I get from Berto and all of my kind of support crew at 3D Mustard. And even today,

37:41
I think I could prep myself through an entire day of show. It just wouldn't be as good because everyone has tendencies. And my tendency is to, will, like, for example, when I was in Europe for the last two weeks, we had a conversation, me and, and Berto and Brian kind of like my, my little coaching pit crew, like, Hey, when you travel and when you do conferences, you tend to diet, you, you, you over correct, you know, you know,

38:08
because we know this as practitioners, when people travel, they tend to overdo it on the nutrition and you know, they, come back and like, Oh no, I've, I've, I've backslid. Um, and you think you go to someplace like Italy, the natural tendency is going to be, this is going to be a disaster for a diet. I'm the exact opposite. I over-correct. I'm highly active. I'm not going on vacation. I'm going there and I'm, I'm on stage. I'm talking, I'm animated. am full of adrenaline. I'm full of excitement.

38:37
I am, working and you know, like when, and what I do is, okay, when I'm not working, we go do touristy stuff, which means I'm clocking three times the number of steps I'm used to. So we were like, okay, listen, you can diet while you're in Spain, but don't over diet. And then while you're in Italy, we have the time and the timing isn't exactly what we planned, but it's close enough. Let's take a diet break. So Berta was like, Hey, for nine days, I would like you to eat at maintenance. And I was like, done. I'll do that for the.

39:05
the last day in Spain and then all the way back, be at maintenance. I came back two kilos lighter and I sent my update. didn't have my scale with me, but I sent just a visual update and I went from being what looked like 16 weeks out to maybe six weeks out while I was there. I woke up one day and I had, I had side glute striations and the hints from the back as well.

39:30
And I was like, Hey guys, the diet break, uh, wasn't exactly the game plan. So when I came back, I took three more days at maintenance to kind of accomplish that. my tendency is to, to overdo it and I'll flatten myself out, push other competitors sometimes freak out and they'd like, I'm losing fullness. I need to step back and maybe they think too much about their stage weight and they will not, and they'll, they'll, they'll hold themselves back from getting in the shape they need to, or they.

39:58
they start to flatten and they go, oh, it's unrecoverable. It's like, no, you know, you just need a few refeed days or eating it. So it's, it's, think, um, contest prep exposes your insecurities and your tendencies. And it's really helpful to have someone to just be objective because you could make the right decision, but you're unable to evaluate yourself objectively. Um, like one of the things that you learn as a prep coach is you do need to enlist the athlete during the peak week.

40:28
because you're not always going to get consistent pictures and visuals, especially when they're getting color on, they're traveling, internet connections are inconsistent, they're in a hotel room, the lighting will change. You'll get great visuals for 24 weeks and then you'll be like, I cannot tell what's going on in this last three days where it's most critical and I have to decide Friday night, do I give you more carbs or less before you get on stage? you need to have, ideally you mentor the competitor to be able to visually assess themselves to some degree.

40:57
so they can be a little more autonomous. And one thing you have to be really mindful of is that many competitors are pushing to get into incredible stage condition and you're going to have regions of body fat that come off last. So you're going to have split hamstrings, know, shredded abs and separated quads. Typically everyone's a little different, but you won't quite have fully striated glutes. We're talking about like say a male competitive bodybuilder.

41:26
and you become so focused on getting glutes striations that if you are on a high carb day and you're just retaining a little more water, you're training, you're beat up, you did RDLs yesterday and those glutes striations aren't there, that is what you're focused on despite the fact that your whole physique looks better. Maybe you have more delt separation. So when you're in peak week and your coach needs to make sure that you are appropriately filled out and that you're going to wake up tomorrow,

41:55
looking hard, not right now, Friday night, and you don't see those glutes, like I'm spilled over coach. It's all over. And you have to know to not necessarily trust that and have some other performance indicators or to help the athlete be more objective when they look at themselves. You send them a picture of here's what you look like when you're flat. Here's what you look like in your full. I'm going to cut off your head, put you in the same lighting, and then you can get them to stop hyper focusing on the one glute vein they had on Thursday.

42:23
morning when they're depleted and slightly dehydrated and be like, that's not even visible from the judge's table. And if we did the things necessary to look like that, you would place three places lower, not higher. Because of the overall effect that Exactly. Your X-frame depletes because you're just small overall. yeah, it's probably the most common example of how when you're in your head, you're seeing one thing, but it is not an accurate representation of what.

42:52
is overall happening or what you should do. Because I mean, if you are spilled over, yes, you should not have those carbs before you go to bed and you look up looking better. But if you are not spilled over and you're actually a little bit flat, you need to have those carbs so that tomorrow you wake up crisp and perfectly maintain that look. And if you make the wrong decision, then it's unrecoverable on Saturday morning of your show. We don't have enough time to fix being super, super flat because it's carb, know, like

43:20
glycogen takes longer to store than two hours before you're going to get on stage. What does spilled over look like? you talk about it a lot, but I on various things and I don't, I mean, I wouldn't know what it would look like. Yeah. Great question. So the terminology, you know, being spilled over is when you go from looking, um, fuller, which this has actually been measured. like, if you look at some studies, there's only a handful on carbohydrate loading, often done endurance athletes.

43:49
They will also see a measurable increase in cross-sectional area of muscle volume or muscle thickness in some studies. You will also see this with dehydration. There's actually a recent study that came out where they had people be dehydrated and go into a workout and they looked at the post-exercise muscle swelling and you see about 20 % lower changes in muscle thickness and just baseline values after training and before training. know, muscle is about 80 % water.

44:19
and it is the largest depot of glycogen. We also store it in our brain and other tissues, but glycogen is stored with a minimum of three to four grams of water. It's actually bound molecular in glycogen, but it also has water that's stored intramuscularly with it. And a well hydrated muscle that is also carved up is visibly and quantitatively much bigger than a small one. Spilled over,

44:47
is what we describe when you are full to that point, you're trying to get to that point, and you keep eating carbs and you keep drinking. And a really important skill for a coach and an athlete to have and understand and just acknowledge is that there's a difference between the intermediary look of carving up and assimilating carbohydrates before you are full of glycogen and looking watery or not defined or being spilled over.

45:15
which is something that happens when you have filled up and now this glucose needs to go somewhere. And the best explanation we have and why we call it spilled over is that you do not have any more room in your muscles right now. So you're seeing a preponderance of glucose. It is bringing water with it. And some of that ends up in the intermuscular space and subcutaneous space. And we have a loss of definition.

45:44
So when someone has spilled over what they actually look like is if they were a silhouette, they'd look amazing, right? You turn the lights on, you go, you don't have as much muscle separation. Some of those striations are gone. It tends to be more dominant in certain parts of your body, typically the lower body, which is probably just a gravity effect, right? You can see a little bit more like not swollen ankles, but just a little bit of edema, you know? And they, they look,

46:13
less defined, but big. Flat is when you are not full, but you still have that crisp look because the carbohydrates all were, it would be somewhere. So both of them can result in not having enough muscle definition. But if you were looking bubbly, big in your silhouette looks, it's best, but you have less definition. You were probably spilled over. If you are looking less defined, flat and silhouettes not looking good,

46:41
you are probably undercarbed. And if you're somewhere between, it's probably the process of loading. And this is where a lot of competitors get messed up. Like they've been dieting a long time, they're three days out. And the plan is to, we're gonna load carbohydrates on Wednesday. We're gonna taper them down on Thursday, and we're gonna have a small bump on Friday. And then we're gonna just kind of eat just below maintenance on game day, let you clean up and have the perfect combination of hardness while maintaining fullness. That might be someone's plan.

47:10
A competitor will probably experience, not always, but often on Wednesday and Thursday, the look of not being at full, but assimilating those carbohydrates, the actual process, because they're having a large bolus that is not going to get there immediately. can take 24 to 48 hours, even if you take in 12 grams per kilogram of carbohydrate to store it. And this is not something endurance athletes notice because they don't care. They're not trying to make their quadricep look great. They're trying to run or cycle.

47:41
And the goal should probably be to see some spillover, right? Make sure you've gotten enough. But for a physique athlete, you, let's say you've been on 150 grams of carbohydrate, your digestion is more suited towards those foods in those quantities. And boom, you come in, you drop your fiber in half and you triple your carbs. You're going to start to, most competitors start to look worse before they look better. And often the overreaction is,

48:09
put the brakes on, oh shit, it was too much, I spilled over. Reality, it's just like you need to finish your day and go to sleep and let water balance return to its homeostasis because you're going to look better tomorrow. And it might take a day or two, but you're going to look amazing if you just let it do its thing. But it's very difficult to do that in a crazy dieted competitor who's going to be getting on stage in front of seven strangers naked competitively in a couple of days. So.

48:37
That is what we describe as the load look versus being spilled over and differentiating between the two is a bit of a skill. I can't imagine there'd be very many people who could coach someone to perfection like that. There are a ton of bodybuilding coaches out there, I can't, yeah, it just sounds to me that you really have to have had the experience yourself and just be super.

49:06
familiar with it, whereas not everyone is going to be in that position. they're coaching people. I guess it's the same in any area, right? Any industry. there's ways to develop the skill. So one, I've coached over 100 people to this stage. And this is true if we'd gone back to 2015. And I'm not a full-time coach anymore, but that skill set is still there, even though I coached a handful of people.

49:30
And another thing that's really, really important and one of the unsung benefits of refeeds and diet breaks is you get to see this on potentially a weekly basis. So if you're using a high-low approach, which I think people should, at least for this benefit, you get exposure to and you maintain the ability to handle higher carbohydrate days, higher calorie days while you're on low calorie days. It's not a requirement for fat loss. It may not even be giving an advantage, but this I do think is a tactical advantage.

50:00
when you're six, seven, eight weeks out, what you start doing is you send your coach or you yourself, if you're self coach, you look at videos of yourself going through your posing in the same lighting, the day of your refeed or refeeds. I often have a couple of days in a row, second day of the refeed or refeeds, morning, night, one day later and two days later. And you basically assess when do I look my best? And it tells you about what is your load look.

50:28
Because there's some people who just look linearly better. They handle carbohydrates really well. They are someone who restores homeostasis and water balance quite quickly. Their sodium excretion is well dialed in. just, they're somebody who gets back to hormesis real fast, right? And there's other people, maybe their digestion has slowed a lot. They don't handle high carbohydrates anyway, but they still, I it's not like the change of the rules. Like even though I may not be on

50:57
a high carbohydrate intake for my size. I'm still a 80 kilo competitor. I have a lot of muscle mass just as a general amount of my body. I need a high amount of carbohydrates ultimately to fill out. I don't burn through a whole lot of them. So not as high as someone else because more of them are being stored. But what it means is that for me, about two days after my highest load day, as I taper down is when I look my best.

51:24
while someone who's a 22 year old, just metabolic monster, they're just going to incrementally look better. So they might have a taper up, I might have a taper down, or they might have an increase and then just hold it flat and then a little bump before show day. And the refeeds give you a really good insight into that. So a good, smart coach and an intelligent competitor, once they're close to stage condition, they're going to start looking at day to day and within day changes.

51:52
And one of the hacks that I teach to all new coaches and competitors is that if you're competing on a Saturday, afternoon or morning, early afternoon, the cheat code is that on Friday night, you want to look a little bit spilled over. Right? Because that means you're definitely full. You've gotten all your carbs in. You look awesome. You should be able to catch a pump easy, but you look softer. You've actually softened out. if you look amazing,

52:22
Saturday night, exactly like you want to look on stage, eat more because you're going to go to bed, wake up and you're going to be flat and then it's going to be a little too late. So that's the cheat code is basically, and if you're competing in the evening, then you need to be spilled over and then you need to keep eating on the day. But if you're competing in the morning, then you need to be spilled over and you just kind have your conservative breakfast, moderate carbohydrates, just kind of like your maintenance intake, maybe even a slight deficit.

52:48
and you'll be looking awesome at 10, 11, 12, 1, whenever you're competing. That's to simplify it. Yeah, Eric, when I was at, because I was at your show in Christchurch, I think it was 23, because my friend Anastasia was also competing. It was her first show. And I remember out back, and there were all these donuts, and there were like jelly lollies, and there were all these things here. And I thought it must have been under the guise of getting a little bit more carbohydrate into, you know,

53:17
In fact, I follow someone on YouTube and they're like, I have two Reese's Pieces peanut butter cups, you know, an hour out just to get my final sort of like carb load. And I'm like, I don't think that works actually. So I mean, psychologically, it must work for your head, but I don't think it's going to work for your body. is that just a, is it a well-recognized sort of like fake in the bodybuilding? Like everyone sort of knows it, but we just excuse it anyway.

53:45
I don't, I know, think there's plenty of people who just don't actually understand the time course of glycogen storage. Um, but one thing I can tell you is that when you've been dieting real hard and you're really, really low in body fat, like you can feel the swings in blood glucose. And when you have a very long competitive day, not like the Christchurch shows, you know, it's small New Zealand is still growing as far as this federation. But let's say you're competing at WF worlds. It's a two day comp. Um,

54:12
And if the show gets behind because it runs from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. basically two days in a row, you you might be planning to get on at 1 p.m. but you might get on at 3 30. You're probably going to have to get an extra meal in there to maintain the same kind of look and just keep energy levels high. And then if it's a competitive division. So for example, the 20, 23 when I did Worlds, the lightweight men's bodybuilding pro division was on stage for an hour. And that is posing the whole time.

54:42
And we actually have data on posing and it actually hits the just barely the number of Mets that's equivalent to vigorous activity because you're doing an isometric contraction at about 90 % trying to smile. You're potentially sweating, not as much as you'd expect because you are dieted. So having something before you get on stage, especially in those conditions is not a bad idea at all. But the narrative that it's specifically because it's filling out glycogen, not so much.

55:11
What may have an acute effect is maintaining an appropriate level of hydration and getting in some sodium because those things do rapidly change and shift. There is somewhat of a balance. People I don't think should be massively manipulating electrolytes or water by any means, especially if they're drug free. if you just do this right now, if some competitor wanted to test me on this, drink three liters of water.

55:41
right now. If you're lean and you're on a diet and you can see these differences, within about 30 minutes, you will probably notice that you are not as defined, but you will look a little bit fuller. And then you'll urinate once or twice. And within another 30 minutes or 40 minutes, maybe, depends on the person, you'll go back to your level of definition that you had previously. Just because you've given yourself so much fluid that it's not going to go into all the places that

56:09
you would ideally want from a physique perspective. But we're talking about changes in minutes. Like some people start cutting water on Thursday and Friday. That's a bad idea. So what you ideally want is just your normal, relatively high end water turnover, fluid turnover. So what I tend to do on game day and what I want people to do is just be used to drinking enough water so you have four or five clear-ish but not totally clear urinations.

56:38
If you overdo it though, you end up pissing out all your sodium and then you see blood pressure drop. It's harder to get a pump and you will maintain a hard look, but you won't have the same pop. And it's harder to get a pump and the pump up backstage. You're like, why isn't this working? You know, I'm on a, on a bunch of carbs and you'll see a lot of competitors who aren't able to discern some of these differences. So a common thing you'll hear from a competitor who has historically been told they need to, you know, cut water.

57:08
cut sodium, but load carbohydrates is they're like, I can't get a pump, but I did the things to control water. That means I must not be high enough on carbohydrates. And then they're flat on stage. They're frustrated, but you know what is what it is. I'll fix it next time. We'll load on more carbohydrates anyway. Let's go out to eat, celebrate. And they have a big meal and they drink and they're having fluids and a high sodium meal and a lot of carbohydrates and fat. And they look amazing. They go,

57:37
they go to go pee in the bathroom, probably for the first time in like six hours. And they noticed that they've got this crazy bicep pump. They look at me, they lift up their shirt and they're like, wow, why didn't I look like this three hours ago on stage? And then they think, well, I just had this massive pizza. Maybe I need to do a fat load and carb load even more aggressively. And because, and they, and they, they don't actually change their, their water or their sodium. And, and they, they repeat the same mistake over and over. they just, and peak week becomes this, you know,

58:06
unsolvable riddle to them. And really, it's as simple as you want normal fluid turnover. You don't want to be too high or too low so that you pee out all your sodium or that you are drinking too much. And this can happen when you're nervous. Some people overdrink, some people underdrink. Like if you're 30 minutes off from stage and you pound a gallon of water, that's probably not a good idea. But if you wake up the morning of the show and you drink a couple liters of water,

58:33
and you decide, you know, 30 minutes out, 45 minutes out, I'm just going to sip or cut it off. Um, you don't have to pee on stage either. That's never helpful. Then that typically is the right combination. And it also interacts with what are you eating on game day? So for example, me, uh, because I kind of process things slower, I'm eating very little on game day and I've loaded previously. So if I'm not eating anything, I'm not bringing in much sodium. need to be hydrated.

59:02
to maintain that same look, I have to be cautious about not just peeing out all my sodium and not being able to catch a pump. So on game day, like I will have pretzels. They're zero fat, moderate carbohydrate, but they're also relatively high in sodium. And then right before I get on stage, I will sometimes have just like a little packet of salt. So I'll have like a gram of sodium or something like that to kind of keep me at my relatively normal sodium intake, but still on game day while I'm on relatively lower

59:31
intakes of food, but I'm kind coasting off of the food that I loaded on. Someone else who sweats more, has a higher metabolic rate, and needs to maintain the carbohydrates the whole time to keep the same look is going to have meals with sodium and might actually actively have, like you said, Reese's cups and then like some sodium and water right before they get on stage. Yeah. Oh, super interesting. And so you mentioned something actually, and this is

59:57
a slight tangent, but about how obviously the muscle changes depending on hydration. Does this change what we see in the Dexa era? mean, Dexa is often sort of considered gold standard, but it was designed for like bone density, not necessarily muscle mass, but this is like what people sort of hold up as being a bit gospel. Yeah. So if you look at some of the IOC best practice, or if you were to have someone on like a Gary Slater or Grant Tinsley or a Petria Hume or some of these folks who are

01:00:25
you leaders in the body composition space. Um, and you look at what has been published as really what should be in place. So it's a lot. So when Grant Tinsley had me in 2023 do a DEXA, which was awesome. Um, you know, he had us come over for dinner the night before, which I thought was just him being really nice. And he was like, no, no, no, I need you guys to drink all this water. And then in the morning we did urine specific gravity testing and

01:00:52
we needed to be at a certain level of hydration. And I was actually on the cusp. Like he was like, okay, you're leaning, you're, you're almost dehydrated drink this, we're good. So some of the things that are that if you want Dexia to be the gold standard that it is not just for bone density, but also for, uh, you know, body composition testing as a whole, you have to do it at the same time, actually making sure that the, there was not training done in the last day or two days. Uh, you need to make sure that the, the, the meal.

01:01:20
patterns and the food eaten are the same. And ideally that there's not a bunch of food in the gut because that can change what that's picked up as based upon what you ate and when you ate it. And that the person is in a hydrated state when they actually go in to do the testing. And it's not that if you don't do those things, it's completely invalid, but it's each incremental deviation you get away from that increases the measurement error and the variability, which you can get over with a group.

01:01:48
But you can't with an individual. It just changes your reading, right? And not always in the way you'd predict. So yeah, the standard, A, yes, to answer your question, it does impact it, but B, there are things you can do about that. per the guidance of the body composition analysis standards, you should do something about that whenever possible. And then Eric, for you to have, like, did you know that even though you obviously didn't have scales,

01:02:18
I imagine you would have known that you would have been lighter coming back home from your holiday. sometimes you can, mean, two kilos is not nothing. Well, so here's the thing. I didn't know how light much lighter I was, but I knew that I made what looked to be four to five weeks of progress in two weeks when I was supposed to only be dieting for one week, not two. So I was anticipating something. So I left at 85 kilo average and I came back at 83 kilo average.

01:02:46
I wasn't surprised by that, but it confirmed what I saw. And you know, cause you wonder like, well, maybe I was just on a higher carb diet or maybe I was, you know, like more pumped because you know, or because I was training in the morning. don't know. Like, you know, you think like what could have caused this look, but I was anticipating that I would come back at least a kilo lighter and it was a little more than I anticipated. I've also seen this happen multiple, multiple, multiple, multiple times. in

01:03:14
2019 and 2023, I was traveling around the world during prep and this kept happening. I would have, uh, I would go on a trip and I would get a ton leaner and it, and it was like a repeated thing. And at first I just thought like, we're catching me in a weird lighting with the water balance post flight where I'm like, you know, cleaning up and, then we're just seeing that. And then I was like, no, I'm, I'm each time I'm, I'm quite literally lighter. Uh, and it's not the, and it sticks. So, um,

01:03:44
Yeah, it is now something that we actually factor in. Like I have a trip, very similar trip for two weeks where I'm going to go from doing an event for Techno Gym in Bali in early September, then doing an event for Optum Nutrition in the UK and then doing the European Pilots in Conference in Limerick. So I'll be going from Bali to London to Limerick and being away for two weeks. And that's when I'm going to be five weeks out. So, oh no, actually when I come home, I will be...

01:04:14
three weeks out. Yeah. So I, that is where you really got to be cautious because the leaner you get, the more a little fat loss sprint becomes a muscle loss sprint. Um, you know, like 80th, I left at 85 kilos. That is means I probably have 10 to 12 pounds of fat on my body, which we actually want to lose, right? If we were anticipating my stage weight, it's going to be around 80 kilos. You know, you lose four pounds in two weeks. It's not the end of the world.

01:04:42
You know, I definitely flattened out and those three days of maintenance were very important after I got back. But when you are, when I'm in mid September, I'm going to be almost in stage condition about ready to eat up. So I need to not like, if I lose a kilo over two weeks, I'm probably okay. But if I lose two kilos in two weeks, when I'm going into that trip, leaner than I am currently now, we're going to be fighting a bit of an uphill battle is to kind of resuscitate the physique. So

01:05:12
What'll probably happen is that trip will be the little final nail in the coffin. I come back like, you're about as shredded as you want to get and now we're going to start incrementally walking your calories up. And I'm just going to need to be careful to not overdo it while I'm over there. It sounds to me like you're going to have to manage your activity a lot more and your like rest more. Is that where you'd probably make the most difference? Like a lot less neat. I mean, with you getting 20,000 steps when you're in Europe, like.

01:05:41
And Bali, you're have to sit by the pool, Eric. I think it's gonna really depend upon, honestly, it's mentally. What do I do mentally? I have to make it okay for me to eat big meals. And even though I don't have a scale, like I have to rely on the visual and how I feel. And that's why this thing is not something that I could have done years ago. And it's even a challenge now. Like every, I'm losing some of the biofeedback that I would have while I'm out there. The scale helps. Like as an example, I wasn't,

01:06:10
when I got back, I'm like, okay, well, I've lost some more weight. My energy expenditure may be lower now. And I'm probably going to feel a little bit worse even in a low deficit now, now that I've been back in New Zealand for a little bit over a week. So I've been, I'm back in the deficit, gain, the goal is to lose fat. So this is all good. Came back, I'm clocking like 82.8, 82.9, 83, just kind of hovering there. This morning, I dipped to 82.5. And I was like, okay, so the feeling is not actually that different from when I left

01:06:39
for Europe. The way I'm feeling like dieted right now, it is an indicator that I am in a deficit. So today we're going to have a day of maintenance. We're going to have a refeed. That scale weight change was one of the key indicators for me to do that. I did see in the mirror that I think I'm getting leaner, but on a four day basis, a five day basis, it's a little more challenging to tell.

01:07:05
But it was also a nice confirmatory tool because that's what I was feeling like. Like the last four days, was like, it feels like I'm dieting. I feel like I'm definitely in a deficit. But I also know that at a certain point, it always feels like that, even when I'm in maintenance. So I think we should be seeing a new low pretty soon. I was predicting it. So then seeing it, just kind of crystallized that skill a little bit more. So I think by the time I go to Bali,

01:07:33
Bali and in the UK, will be able to just allow myself to be more aggressive at meals because I won't have quite as much control over the way I'm interacting with people, walking and just the sleep. When you only sleep four or five hours a day, it means you're up for 19. What are your maintenance calories right now, Eric? What are you dieting on? Yeah, good question.

01:08:02
I'd say average calorie intake for the week is probably around 2,000, 2,100. If we go across low days and high days, my low days right now are between 17 to, I would say 1,900 calories. And then I have two to three days per week that are closer to 2,100 to 23, maybe 2,400 calories.

01:08:29
And is the difference carbohydrate predominantly for you or is it fat as well, a bit of a mix in terms of maintenance versus? Yeah, the difference between a maintenance and a high day, the protein is very similar. And I probably have primarily higher carbohydrates on the refeed days, but probably also another 10, 15 grams of fat as well. And where do you see your calories being, like if you project forward like 10 weeks or not quite 10 weeks, but you know, to your lowest weight? Yeah.

01:08:58
Where do you see yourself sort of being there? That is what I think I've done really well this time is not much lower. They may have to come down another hundred or so on average, but I think the feel of things and the day-to-day process won't be much less because the energy deficit will become smaller, which is ideally what you want to do. Right. You can lose faster. Like you can lose a kilo in a week when you've got 10, 15 kilos to give and it's not the end of the world.

01:09:27
when you've got one kilo to give, you can make the scale weight go down a kilo, but I guarantee you 20 % of it's fat, you know, so, um, at most. like there is something that you see really, really consistently is that, uh, when competitors get behind the eight ball, when they need to, when they're close to lean and they try to get lean in the time they have left, you simply cannot rush the process.

01:09:54
It's not that you can't lose the fat. It's that you lose the fat and muscle and the look is not. And if you actually think about it from a numbers perspective, you want to be super quantitative. Your body fat percentage doesn't go down as much, right? If you lose two kilos of fat and no muscle, your body fat percentage goes down more. If you lose two kilos of fat and one kilo of muscle, that's just, that's just the way it works. Right. Um, and what that looks like is even more compounded because

01:10:22
when you were doing that to an already dieted body, you feel terrible. Your stress levels get higher, your sleep gets worse, your training quality goes down and you kind of look like you just got jumped in an alley. Like you have this filmy kind of look, you're flat. have your edema from DOMS doesn't recover as quickly, muscle soreness lasts longer. So what you really want is that, you know, like if I was to

01:10:50
again, say really quantitative with this, and these are just exemplar numbers to illustrate. Let's say you're running a 600, 700 calorie deficit in the first 10 weeks of a 30-week prep, and then it gets down into maybe like a 400, 500 calorie deficit for the next 10 weeks. And then for the last 10 weeks, you might be running a 100, 200 calorie deficit. And then the last couple of weeks, you're running a 10,

01:11:16
15, 50 calorie deficit and maybe even started to bring it up into an actual surplus because you're that depleted and you're trying to refill out. And what starts out as a surplus then quickly shifts to maintenance as you start to reverse some of the initial aspects of metabolic adaptation. For example, in 2019, I got lean in May. I did a show in

01:11:43
good condition, but not amazing condition in April. And I competed all the way through August. I decided to do this intentionally because June was a very, very busy month and it needed to be mentally there. So I said, Berto, instead of doing this right and kind of chipping off the last two kilos of weight over the next three months, and then having weeks of eating up, let's eat up for months because I can't be dieting and feeling like this in June. So kill me in May because I can hide from the world and I don't have any major

01:12:11
PhD supervision responsibilities or 3DMJ responsibilities. And that's what we did. So I looked flat as a pancake. I was getting shredded, but we got there. End of May, I was the, I was peeled. And then we spent June and July and half of August, literally just increasing calories. And I was down, low days were 1400 calories. High days were auto-regulated. After we saw an improvement in condition, we'd pop in a day around 2000, 2100.

01:12:41
maybe two days, but I was running like 10 days at 1400 calories in a row for a two to three week period with one little refeed. So I went from an average calorie intake on a weekly basis of probably 1800 calories, if I recall correctly, to then by late July, walking around at 25 to 2800 calories. Oh, wow. Yeah. So a thousand calorie swing, but the same body weight.

01:13:11
looking heaps better. And every morning I would get up and I would send a video to Birdo because I competed three times in a, like an eight week period. So we were kind of just one of the constant monitoring of my look. And I would just send him a video and I would send the same words, put me in coach because I wasn't like, needed a peak week. So I just, and we would just top me off before I got on stage. Like Friday night, we would do exactly what I said. Let's get a little spilled, have an extra 50 grams of carbs. Like basically

01:13:41
have a handful of fruit or some bread and go to bed. That's amazing, Eric. And that just speaks to the experience of you and your coach. And it's such a great learning tool. No wonder you're like flowing around the world to sort of do what you do best with like judging and talking to people about this stuff. And I think the really important thing is that most competitors, don't challenge themselves in this way. They are a little too neurotic and they

01:14:10
really want to control these variables and they're too afraid. And I think you really do have to be brave and also have the support and the experience to get to this point. And some never do, not because they can't, but because they don't try because they're afraid to try. And the typical way that competitors get better, quote unquote, and I question whether they really do, is they try to control their environment more rather than expanding the conditions in which they can still have the right environment.

01:14:40
by testing their limits and boundaries and kind of bringing their environment with them. And I know that I can do the things I need to for prep regardless of whether I'm in an airport or whether I'm at home. So I think that's a really important skill that you should have. Now there's some limits to this. know, like in 2019, I did do the European Paralympic Conference literally a week before I did my last show. And I went out there and I said, hey team, I'm not staying an extra day. I'm flying right back. And guess what? I'm going to stay on New Zealand time.

01:15:10
And they're like, how are you going to do that? And I said, well, you're going to give me the 5pm speaking slot because that's going to be the equivalent of 6am. And then I will, yeah, I'm not going to watch any of the earlier conference. When we go out to dinner, that's going to be my breakfast that I did after my presentation. I'll see everybody say, hey, goodbye. And then I'm flying home. So there is a certain point where you have to kind of, you know, put your foot down and say like, listen, I'm a week out from competing. I need to track my sodium or something like that.

01:15:39
or hit specific carbohydrates rather than the calorie range. And that's fine. If you talk to an endurance athlete when they're in the final month, like, okay, I'm running a marathon, I'm doing a triathlon. I'm going to be literally having a part-time job of being in the pool, on a bike or running. I don't have time to do other things. And outside of that, I'm trying to sleep and nurse this knee and prevent it from getting out of control, right? Or something like that. So- It's not different.

01:16:09
No, and it is constrained, but it should be constrained to a brief period when you're in kind of that striking zone of 12 weeks out, maybe at most, not I started prep flipping the switch and that's all there is, which is the issue we talked about earlier. Yeah, yeah. So Eric, just to finish up, because I'm really mindful of your time. You mentioned that you eat out like a couple of times a week. Obviously you eat breakfast up, but you get takeaway.

01:16:35
People are going to want to know what you get for takeaway when you're maintaining this deficit because your calories aren't that different from a lot of people who are just generally trying to improve body composition. Yep, absolutely. Asian food is amazing. Not Chinese food, unfortunately. so like there's a great little Japanese place. you can get, depending upon how much wiggle room you have for calories, you can very easily get a sashimi salad with tuna.

01:17:05
and we're talking almost pure protein and fiber. You get that half and a half with rice. You can opt in to make that half salmon if you want to get some fat in there, no problem. When I eat out, when I'm traveling, Japanese is a great go-to. I'll get miso soup, wakame salad, that's the seaweed salad, some sashimi, and then I can opt into the amount of rice I want. Boom. Chew slightly fattier fish, I my fat content higher. Another one that I really like to do

01:17:35
you know, burger burger for those who live in New Zealand. Oh, yeah. Seems like a place. How would you eat out there? Well, guess what? They have the broccoli that you can get. And I get that with fish and I do it pan fried and you can tick a little box that says no butter. Boom. Oh, nice one. So I'm getting, you know, broccoli, fish and almonds is basically what that is with some garlic. Another good one. You know, if you're doing

01:17:59
either Malaysian or Cambodian or Thai, there's often options to get like a papaya salad and you can get that with like snapper sometimes or chicken. Be aware that when you get chicken when you're eating out in most places like that is chicken thigh not breast, which is why I often opt for the like the snapper or the whitefish. So those are all really great choices and typically my go-to's when I eat out it's

01:18:27
you know, Asian cuisine, Japanese, it's an easy win. Uh, or if you're, you know, like pan fried fish, side of broccoli, boom. Um, those are options at a lot of places, not everywhere, but I think the more important thing is it's, I still get to eat out with my wife, right? And, and, you know, we feel like we're eating together and my choices off the menu don't impact our social environment, which is like, it's a good reminder for people. So yeah. And every morning, you know, I go out to eat at a cafe.

01:18:56
but I make choices that no matter how much variability there is between the way it's prepared, we're talking about a hundred calorie swing. I get three poached eggs, multigrain toast and a side of spinach and sauteed mushrooms. Even if they cook that with butter, even if they pre butter the toast, instead of bringing me out a little pat, the poached eggs are straight up just the same calories in a hard boiled egg. The toast, if it's huge,

01:19:23
versus small. If it's huge and has butter on it, we're talking about 110 calories per piece. If it's small and has no butter, it's 60 calories. So two pieces of toast, we're literally looking at 100 calorie swing. And even if you try to make mushrooms and spinach retain as much of the butter in the pan as possible, we're probably talking another 100 calories. I know that when I go out to get that breakfast, it's somewhere between 400 to 500 calories. And that is a very acceptable margin of error. And importantly,

01:19:53
I can look at it and tell. that's a very easy thing to do. And then my lunch every day is identical because I do it home. And I really just need to decide when am I going to eat out? And when I cook at home, when am I going to make certain things to then make it match to a refeed? And if we go out to eat and it's a low day, then I'm suggesting Japanese or burger burger.

01:20:22
And if we go out to eat or we order takeaway and it is a high day, then we can still do that. And I just won't get broccoli with it. I will get rice or sweet potato fries or something like that. Probably not sweet potato fries. It's a bad example. But I would get some carbohydrate-based food with it. Yeah, nice one. And my final question, did you find Pepsi Max in Italy or did you have to have Diet Pepsi?

01:20:49
Italy had more options than Pepsi Max. I was having things like they have some sweet teas, Yes. They had more artificially sweetened beverages than different ones. Actually, not more. There was a limited selection, but a different limited selection. So I was a connoisseur of diet soda while I was in Spain and Italy compared to New Zealand. Oh, nice one. Eric, hilariously,

01:21:14
I didn't get to talk to you about what I intended to talk about at all because we stayed on, well, I thought it was such a great conversation actually about the not really advanced techniques, but I really, you know, I've never really had any idea about the, well, not the, about, guess the strategies to get someone looking the way they do when they get on stage. So I found this super fascinating. For those of you who, for

01:21:43
people who are listening. First of all, are you like, is your book about to be published again? Like you've edited and updated it and when, when does that do? Yeah, it's, mean, it's, it's basically written and now we're working on figures, copy editing, getting a cover and figuring out when's the best release date. So it'll be fourth quarter outside of that. It, there's a, there's, there's a bit more like obviously we've got to talk to the, our translation partners and figure out when are we going to release it written?

01:22:12
mean, sorry, digital versus physical on Amazon. So there's just all the fiddly stuff. Yeah. You know, as anyone who has actually written a book knows, finishing the writing is obviously the hardest and most important part, but it's not the same as the release date, you know? So, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nice one, Eric. And just for anyone who is a little bit ignorant, where can they find out more about you, Iron Culture, Mass, et cetera?

01:22:37
Yeah. So if you're interested in nerding out on a regular basis, massresearchreview.com where we cover the most recent and relevant research for nutrition, health, fitness, body composition, change, strength. We've been doing that since 2017. So that means we have over a thousand pieces of content, over a hundred issues that if you subscribe, you get access to literally all of it immediately. Boom, bam. And that comes out on the first of every month. And I do that with Dr. Eric Trexler.

01:23:05
Dr. Lauren Calenzo Semple and Dr. Mike Zyrdos. And Iron Culture, presented by Mass, is me and Dr. Trexler talking about this stuff on a regular basis in podcast format. So the best place for all that is massresearchreview.com. If you have become intensely interested in bodybuilding specific stuff after this talk, check out 3dmusclejourney.com. That's the number three, the letter D, musclejourney.com. And then my books.

01:23:31
I'll be announcing them and if you want to just follow me more generally on social media, that's at Helms3DMJ. Nice one, Eric. And I actually feel bit bummed because I've been a member of Mass since like day dot and have yet to hit that sort of like join for life button, would make so much more financial sense. And I keep thinking I've got to do that. And I will. Eric, thank you so much for your time. I, as always, really appreciate it. And all of the stuff you put out there is just so

01:24:01
One, I find it super interesting and just super helpful. Even like I never worked with bodybuilders, but all of the lessons that you guys talk about in the research, it's all applicable, I think, just everyday people actually who are looking to improve body composition and just get stronger and challenge themselves more, albeit just slightly down the spectrum a little bit. So thank you so much for everything. No, my pleasure. It's an honor. Thank you.

01:24:40
Alrighty, hopefully you enjoyed that chat. I really loved it. And in fact, I was having Eric on to talk about protein myths, but we never got there because we spent an hour just chatting about him. So we will cover that off on another day. So you guys have a great week. And until next week, you can catch me over on threads, X, and Instagram @mikkiwilliden, Facebook @mikkiwillidenNutrition.

01:25:07
or head to my website mikkiwilliden.com and book a one on one call with me. Alright team, you have the best week. See you later.