00:00
Hey everyone, it's Mikki here. You're listening to Mikkipedia. This week on the podcast, I speak to returning guest and women's health expert and naturopath Dr Lara Briden, who joins me for a thoughtful, wide ranging conversation about women's health, medical narratives and the modern pressure to optimize.

00:22
Together we explore how well-intentioned health messaging can sometimes tip from supportive into overwhelming, particularly for midlife women navigating hormonal change in a culture saturated with advice, diagnostics and self-monitoring. We discuss the difference between body awareness and body trust in how historical and cultural medical narratives shape the way women interpret symptoms.

00:46
Our conversation also challenges the idea that health must always be pursued at the level of optimisation, introducing the concept of being healthy enough, not as a lowering of standards, but as a way of leading health support life rather than dominate it. I really enjoyed this conversation and think this episode will resonate with anyone who has felt exhausted by the constant focus on hormones, symptoms and self-improvement and is looking for a more grounded, humane way to think about women's health.

01:15
And I'll say that the origin of this came from a post Lara had popped on social media, just really asking the question, maybe you're okay. You know, are you okay? Maybe you are. Sort of putting to us just that, that this constant striving for health, how necessary that is truly. So anyway, those of you unfamiliar with Lara, I'd be super surprised if anyone was out there who didn't know Lara. She's been on the podcast several times and I've popped

01:44
her appearances in the show notes as well. She is a naturopathic doctor and bestselling author of the books, Period Repair Manual and Hormone Repair Manual, as well as the Metabolism Reset. These are practical guides to treating period problems, hormonal challenges, and just overall health with nutrition, supplements, and bioidentical hormones. With a strong science background, Lara sits on several advisory boards.

02:09
and is the lead author of a 2020 paper published in a peer-reviewed medical journal. She has more than 20 years experience in women's health and currently has consulting rooms in Christchurch, New Zealand, where she treats women with PCOS, PMS, endometriosis, perimenopause, and many other hormone and period related health problems. So I have popped out where you can find Lara both online, larabriden.com, Instagram, at larabriden, and also where you can find

02:39
her best selling books. Before we crack on into this in for you though, I would like to remind you that the best way to support this podcast is to hit the subscribe button on your favourite podcast listening platform. That increases the visibility of Micropedia and it makes literally thousands of other podcasts out there. So more people get to hear from experts that I have on the show like Lara. Alright team, enjoy this conversation.

03:08
Brighton. Thanks for joining me this morning. thanks for having me. It's so great to see you again. Not in person this time, but we're actually not that far apart in real life. I know. both on the South Island at least. Yes, and you've got a really good sort of tour of my dad's lounge, which is my childhood lounge, which has not changed in other than the increasing amount of sort of vinyl and books.

03:37
It hasn't changed in like 40 years, which is crazy. Lara, I wanted us to chat this morning, and you were really open to it, which was really awesome, about a topic which has been on my mind, and just at varying points across, particularly this year, for whatever reason. And you had a post up on Instagram this week, and it was just this really beautiful tile. You do a great job of your social posts, by the way.

04:06
And it was really simple and I'm pretty sure you said, maybe you're okay. And I just, and I read it, it was a really simple message, basically just talking about whether or not we, you know, we are so focused on optimizing our health for some of us or identifying with our health that actually it's not creating problems, but

04:34
actually just maybe we're okay. Can you just sort of talk to me about the genesis of that and then we'll just run on with wherever the conversation is. Yeah, let's explore it today. uh And I'm curious who's listening. I mean, I think I even sat off air, like probably a lot of your audience, so people listening today probably are health optimizers and tracking and yeah, so there can be different reasons for that. mean, I think

05:01
A lot of it comes to, uh they will explore what it can be. I mean, I think it can be fine to do that as long as it's not creating anxiety or coming from a place of anxiety or fear. So, I mean, I'm not a tracker. So this is probably quite a good contrast for your audience. Like I don't optimize or track or anything, although as you know, I'm reasonably active, but I come at it from quite a different place. So this is partly about personality type and also an exploration of if and when it is.

05:29
coming from or feeding anxiety. And I also think, you know, anyone reading your post or people listening to the podcast or who might follow me or you, like, I think we're almost more likely to attract people who not necessarily from it might not be about tracking. It might be just about other aspects of health that we really do identify with and really want to explore and spend a lot of our time.

05:57
I'm trying to unravel like it's a problem. Well, and also my post this week was sort of a commentary also on not just what's happening potentially in people's own lives, but what's happening on social media. I mean, like I opened the caption, like, if you follow a lot of health accounts, you know, things could be getting a little out of hand. So I mean, there has been a burgeoning of health accounts.

06:27
full stop just across all areas. I mean, obviously we'll have to touch on a little bit like there's been an explosion of health advice in perimenopause specifically and my observation online and also with my patients who are now coming to me in quite a fearful state of mind around that, which even five years ago, even two or three years ago was not.

06:53
like that. there is, yeah, my post was probably a commentary about, okay, maybe it's time to unplug from some of like, basically bluntly, you know, unfollow some health accounts. And as I say it, that could mean mine. So, you know, I'm I'm not um excluding myself from because I'm a health influencer as well. But um there is I mean, I'm sure you

07:14
if you spend any time, especially on Instagram, just, every which way you turn, there's like, well, do this, you do this, do this, what about this? This, you know, there's this red flag and this sign in your health and your cortisol and you have to optimize this. And it's like exhausting. It's exhausting for me and overwhelming for me. And I obviously have, you know, a fairly good foundation in like framework for thinking about health. like, I'm just imagining people who are trying to figure out, just really just trying to figure out how to feel better or have a bit more energy.

07:44
And suddenly they've got a to-do list of like hundred different things to try and work on. yeah, it's, and then, and then I guess my main objection to all of that is then where did, like, what about, where do these people then have find time to live their lives? You know, this is our life. mean, life is not a never ending, you know, self-improvement project of health. At that's not how I see it. So yeah, we can explore.

08:09
Should we talk first about the legitimate sports people? I mean, through all of this, and I'm thinking, yes, no, I get, if some people, if a sport, and you might fall into this category, if there's physical activities that are quite paramount in your life, then I get that it makes sense to put a lot of training or attention towards that. What do you say? Absolutely. And it's not like...

08:40
the point of your post or this conversation is to discourage people from thinking about health or from being interested in it. But it's when you of tip that line from it being a healthy curiosity that you want to explore and just to, know, what can you do, which actually will ultimately improve your life, but without, I guess, hysteria or neuroses around it versus actually getting...

09:06
anxious and overwhelmed by all these things you now have to do in order to be a healthy functioning 45 year old woman or something. mean, lot of like historically through my practice is I said values. So through my clinical practice of whatever it is, 30 years now, my a lot of my approach was, okay, let's get you, you know, get get your period sorted. So I'll give the example of you know, uh

09:31
on how on some hands I have quite, like on one hand I have quite a high expectation for certain aspects of health, but on the other hand, I sort of feel like people can be good enough and just get on with their lives. So I just released a podcast actually about irregular periods. So I'll just use that as an example, because I mean, I have set quite a high bar for periods. think they should fall into the, you know, a period coming every 21 to 45 days. It should be ovulatory. Of course we've just immediately defaulted to my area of periods, you know, I feel like.

10:01
Yeah. So I mean, that's legitimate. through my, that's a barometer of health. your period should come, it should be ovulatory, should be ovulating regularly and falling into that timing roughly. It doesn't have to be 28 days though. I'll circle back to that. And um not painful, not distressing in any way. So I mean, certainly I'm in the camp where I don't think.

10:26
our bodily functions should be distressing to like causing symptoms like that would go for digestion as well. if there's if there's serious digestive symptoms or period symptoms, then yes, like find a solution. But then through the decades with my patients, like once they've achieved that, and it's going to require some, you know, eating well to maintain that is staying fully nourished or whatever they have to do to kind of maintain that. But then I'm like, okay, now go live your life like like enjoy, embrace your life like you know, your periods are there. They're solid. My experience with periods, once they

10:55
even if you've come from a place of irregular periods, once you get them going, as long as you're sort of reasonably healthy, they just keep going. you get the ball rolling and they're quite solid, they can be quite solid. So that's my, now go live your life and circle back if you need more help in the future. But then on the other end of that, on the topic of periods as an example, would be, I mean, at different times,

11:23
it's been proposed by people. like, oh, you should ovulate with the full moon. I'm like, I remember seeing that years ago and thinking that's too much pressure on women. Because a lot of women are just not going to ovulate with the full moon. mean, we can sort of debate whether the moon lunar cycle has any legitimate, I mean, that's a topic for another day. I'm sort of in the, I think the moon cycle potentially does affect us to some degree, but I don't, well, I guess I could go on record. don't, I'm not convinced that it,

11:51
regulates the menstrual cycle. I feel like, do you see what I'm going with this? Like that's a lot of extra pressure. And then you get, like, I this is years ago now, but like seeing women like, oh no, I don't ovulate with the moon. Like, what does that mean about me? Like now I've got one other, I'm just like, okay, whoa, like pull the reins here. This is, this is like, you don't have to ovulate with the full moon. just, you know, you're ovulating most cycles in the year. Like you're, doing well. You can now, as I said in the post, you can now like,

12:21
you know, join a singing group or get a master's degree or, you know, spend time with your family or like, like all the things that life is for and not be spinning our wheels kind of spiraling, trying to optimize, guess, trying to, guess I would say trying to optimize aspects of our body that I don't think need to be optimized. mean, I guess it sort of depends that sort of whole concept of optimization. It's like, well, that's values related to so.

12:51
Yeah. Well, can I give you an example just from my area, which my mind immediately went to when I saw your post, which is probably why I was thinking about it and him thinking about the concept. So it is different. It's in fat loss. It's in um building muscle. It's in sort of optimizing muscle mass and the benefits of that. And I have a client and she's amazing. And she has through my program, she's

13:18
um you know, reduce body fat down to a place where she feels really happy. She's been maintaining this for 10 weeks now. She's, you know, really back into the gym doing strength training, feeling good enough to doing HIIT training. And from there, she's like, well, now I need to just build more muscle. And I'm like, okay, yeah, like this is the process with which if you really want to build muscle from this wonderful place that you've now

13:46
at, then you need to do a series of sort XYZ. And I talked her through what it was, which was, you know, essentially eating a little bit of a surplus training optimally, like three to four times in the gym a week, maybe, you know, just went through what that training should look like. And then I thought, and then I said, so, so why do you want to build more muscle? Why, why just be happy with what you, where you are now? And she said, well,

14:15
you know, more muscle is, you know, the thing that we should be aiming for. And, and this is when I'm like, well, when is enough enough, actually, like, is it not just wonderful that you're in this place where you're maintaining your weight, you're in the gym, you're working hard, and you're making the most of what you've got, rather than, like, like trying to work towards something which is just yet another project, yet another thing to do. It's a really good question. I mean, how much muscle

14:46
is enough. And that's, the muscle is a really good example. Let's just, let's just, I mean, I'm sure, because I'm sure people listening, there's, you know, muscle experts in the audience that will have different opinions. I mean, if you're muscle building, like for competition or something like that, that's, that's obviously a different scenario. If you're, I mean, I guess I might use myself as an example. I mean, obviously, we don't want

15:16
sarcopenia and especially like, you know, think a lot of this does come from the messaging and it's real. get it. Like after 50, you know, I'm well after 50 after menopause muscle is going to be reduced. um my attitude is just, you know, I don't think there is actually in my metabolism book, I did find a quote from an expert like, well, how much what's the bare minimum you have to do? Like, that'd be like, it's like, he's like, okay, twice a week with some things. I'm like, yeah, I just

15:46
I'm currently kind of in, obviously, by staying active generally, you can maintain some muscle and then a little bit of strengthening, like what is the bare minimum to not go down the path to sarcopenia? That's sort of my, so I think part of the problem in health is we're, all of us who are health messaging, we're talking to lots of different people and they're in all sorts of different starting places. So yes, there might be people who really have lost a significant amount of muscle.

16:16
And then maybe it's legitimate, like, okay, you need to build some back. That makes sense. But like the client that you just talked about, she's already probably got a fair bit of muscle. She's not in sarcopenia. So how much more does she actually need? I know. And I think about this a lot for myself as well, Lara, because I've always strength trained and probably only in the last two years have strength trained, like I meant it. um

16:45
Equally, I'm not discounting all of the work that I've done before. just sort of thought, oh, maybe I do just push myself a little bit more in the gym and let's just see what happens. Not spending any more time in there necessarily or not really even changing up my exercise or what I do that much. I'm like, well, know, I was thinking for a while, maybe I do actually need to build more muscle. I'm like, I don't think I do. I just need the muscle that I've got to sort of just function well, you know?

17:15
protect sort of what I've got. feel like, and yes, we absolutely lose muscle, you know, as we age and menopause accelerates that. But what does that acceleration mean? Like, I feel like the average woman who goes to the gym might hear those words and think, my God, now I'm just, you know, I'm running out of time. I'm fighting this losing battle. You know, like this is, like you mentioned in one of our back and forths about hysteria. And I don't think it's a hysteria, but it is this real fear.

17:45
um because you use it in a different context, but I saw that word and thought about how women who I speak to are very fearful that they're twice a week in the gym and their running is in fact detrimental or not enough to fight this sort of like um the doom and gloom of muscle mass loss. Well, the doom and gloom is a big part of it. So this this speaks goes back to the

18:14
just the sheer abundance of health messaging that's out there right now is, I mean, a lot of it is very fear based. And I mean, I get that's a motivator to put the fear of God into people based. Like if you don't, if you don't do these things, you're, you know, you're going to age more quickly, you're going to get dementia. It's all very frightening. And

18:43
I mean, I guess even for all of us that are health influencers and communicators right now, like the two of us and people listening, it's about can we find ways to convey this information in a way that's empowering and not fear based? mean, but some people, I mean, I actually had a guy comment on one of my social media posts. was trying to

19:07
push back on the fear-based messaging around perimenopause. he's like, no, it's good. This fear motivates. He even was talking about how shame motivates. It's like, yeah, that's not the kind of motivation I want to be doing. Because there is an aspect of shame for this too, especially around any aspect of health, actually. just, I mean, was going say, as soon you get into the area of body shape and size and.

19:34
fitness, like shame reactions kick in for everyone, but for women in particular, I would think, but even around, know, menstrual health, it's like, you know, why can't I, I feel so bad, why can't I be ovulating on the full moon like everybody else? Not, mean, I'll just say again, not most people are not ovulating on the full moon. So I don't know why I coming back to that one, but I just remember thinking, okay, that's an example of take, this is too far. And actually, look, this is a bit of a tangent, but I really have to,

20:03
ask, if this was the case, surely every woman's menstrual cycle would be synced and everyone would be having a period around you at around the same time. I mean, that just can't possibly. I mean, people have tried to look at it and I mean, just don't think. Anyway, I could be wrong. I mean, this is the thing with any of these things, right? We could be wrong. Maybe the moon does have more of an effect than I thought.

20:30
Again, it's to do with starting place. A lot of the people I'm trying to reach are, they're miles from that. They're potentially have been on the pill, had their ovulation suppressed for 15 years and are just trying to get any kind of ovulation going. yeah, um that's it. I almost want to, I'm not going to get sidetracked, don't worry. But one thing I'll say though about the moon is,

20:58
My sleep is always pretty rubbish around the moon. Well, there is a reception to that. have some impact, yes. So I certainly would not discount that entirely. However, to your point, it doesn't seem... Anyway, yeah, I can understand why you've got your not so bought into the theory as others might be. Right. I mean, the other part of this, and just to sort of name it, is...

21:28
I mean, some people are coming at health. mean, I do think, this would be for individuals to just have an honest conversation with themselves. If they do have a history of eating disorder or disordered eating or, cause we do know that a phenomenon that is quite common is sort of to be in one locked into one version of disordered eating and then kind of switch gears to, I'm not, you know, I'm not restricting for to be skinny. Now I'm like, um,

21:57
know, restricting for a different reason. this is something I guess, even as I'm bringing it up, mean, obviously,

22:06
through, again, through the decades, trying to advise people about diet, I'm sure I have, you know, potentially contributed to some people's anxiety around being fearful around food. It just goes with the territory because it's all things are true at the same time. mean, some, it is true that certain types of foods are inflammatory for people and some, you know, more for some people than for others. And food can be harmful. That's true at the same time as

22:35
being very fearful of food is also harmful and can just kind of spread through. mean, certainly what I've seen with some patients, just kind of starts to take a grip onto everything and just have this real... Basically my warning sign when I'm working one-on-one with people, as soon as there's like a rigidity around it and like a fearfulness around the decisions, then I know, okay, this is something else, there's another layer here that is not helpful.

23:03
from long-term health. It should be joyful, but keep going. No, I completely agree with that, Lauren. I think that's an interesting tension between us as wanting to communicate healthful messages and to be helpful for people, right? And we spend a lot of our time trying to curate the message to be helpful, but also not to nowadays, I'm much more cognizant of this now than I was like 10 years ago.

23:31
I look at things that I wrote 10 years ago and went, oh my God, I cannot believe that I put that out there on social media. Same. there is that, so we do have to be mindful of what we've put out. But then on the flip side, particularly in nutrition that I've witnessed, I think could lead to messaging which might not be helpful for some people, is that there's almost this dilution of what

24:01
health is from a nutrition side. there are people who are nutritionists and dietitians who are up there going, there aren't any good or bad foods. of course you can eat what you know, there's that sort of messaging as well, which um I try to push back on as well, because I feel like, and part of the explanation for that is that people sort of embody the message of good and bad foods and think that.

24:27
that what they're hearing is if I eat these foods and I'm a good or a bad person, they're identifying with the act of eating it. I mean, let's be frank, there are bad foods. I do think that there are bad foods out there that shouldn't even be categorized as food. I don't think it's very helpful for nutritionists to say three cheese sandwiches in a day would fit most of your micros and macros. I've seen

24:56
actual dietitians write posts saying that you could have a balanced diet and eat three cheese sandwiches and that's what you eat. It's crazy stuff. I think so much of what's out there, this is broader as well, you'll have messaging that's trying to combat another kind of messaging. So there's these battles going on that sort of, and without the context, I think for people dropping into that, they're not really. So yeah, you do get this

25:23
I've talked about that in my books too, pushing back on the disorder of eating by saying there are no good or bad foods, like there's just food, like just eat. And obviously that's been said uh for a certain reason to push back on this moralizing around food, which I get that. But at the same time, it's clearly not true that any food is fine. I I always put it through.

25:52
guiding light and guiding principle, which I'm just so, I only now like 30 years in, I realize how important this has been to me is I'm a biologist background and seeing everything through the lens of biology and evolutionary, like that we're animals basically. Yeah. So if you, and if you put it through that lens, there are certain foods and people could debate what those are, but there, I mean, there are certain foods that are suitable for Homo sapiens.

26:22
and foods that are not. I guess the, I mean, we're actually very, um just from that lens, mean, homo sapiens, we're quite remarkable in terms of compared to a lot of other animals in that we do eat just a huge variety of things. And through the eons, like ages we have eaten just like a huge variety of macros and variety of items. And we'll just, we'll basically almost eat anything because we're kind of ravenous in that way. But obviously the, like the ultra processed food is not

26:51
it's not suitable for any biological creature really. The example I was given in my books is like, would you feed this to your pet or you're like an animal that you're trying to... But to your point, yeah, there's a lot of these sort of quite strong messaging that's attempting to push back on other messaging and there's this battle of wills going on that people, individuals are being...

27:21
caught up in and I guess that's partly what my post was about is maybe I feel like saying what the takeaway could be to people if you're hearing very strongly worded sort of messaging, that's probably not for you. That's about another, that's about a longer standing debate that's been going on. Just to try to put that in context as well. I I give another example, this is quite relevant is as of

27:48
2025, so we're recording this end of 2025 there, we've just come through about 24 months of very strong messaging around menopausal hormone therapy and around very strong messaging, which has just been a little bewildering. And overstated claims that estrogen can categorically prevent dementia, which is not true.

28:14
like, well, not there's no evidence for that at this point, you know, like really strong claims that and um I have, you know, I have been a little distressed about that, because I feel like that's that is creating a lot of fear. I can tell you that like you women are very frightened to what like almost paralyzed. What do you do when you hit 45? But um that has been and like it's been openly admitted by some of the people that know, um influencers I've talked to. Well, they're just trying to combat

28:44
the old women's health initiative, know, like also fear, you know, very fearful messaging that hormone therapy is not safe. You so there's these two, like, you know what mean by battle, like there's these two, it's so, and women are being caught in the middle. And this is in the post that we're talking about, I did say, or maybe that's, no, I did another one a few days later. I'm like, maybe it's okay to just trust your instincts on some of these. You know, maybe this is also about,

29:13
the phrase sort of locus of control. So maybe, I did a second post following up on that one, which was like for every expert, there's an equal and opposite expert. So for every opinion out there, you'll find an opposing opinion. I know it can be tough, but maybe sometimes we just have to put that through our own personal filter of how does this land with me and what do I really need?

29:45
understanding that not every individual can become an expert in the field. I saw this other funny comment from someone saying, who knew that being in perimenopause means you have to instantly become a biochemist and a full like endocrinologist and know all the ins and outs of hormones and all the dosing and just to get by. It's like that you shouldn't have to do that either. Obviously, you shouldn't have to do like a crash course in everything. But

30:11
At the end of the day, I think it is important to understand that the experts don't have all the answers. They don't. I mean, that's a takeaway too. Like there's no expert that has all the answers and that would go for me as well. like, so it's, I mean, how would you sort of frame that? I mean, I think people do have to just sort of take the information, like, feel what kind of lands with them.

30:36
Maybe combine that with other information they've had. And then at the end of the day, just say, okay, so what part of this serves me? Like, what do I actually need from this? And filter that through your own goals in life. like, again, just circling back to if you are a serious athlete and training for serious events or have real sports goals in mind, then fine. But if you're just a

31:04
person who's trying to ward off sarcopenia and like, you know, make time for the other things in your life, then that's a different, then you need different information. that, does that make sense? I agree with you. And particularly with in the whole sort of perimenopause space, you're right. There are a lot of loud voices out there and the two obvious, the interesting ones. And, and one of them I know, so Stacey, know,

31:33
Well, and I know, and I think her messaging has been wonderful for actually bringing attention to the idea that active women should focus on, you know, like there are things which can be super helpful for you as you age to be as healthy as possible. And her message is completely not aligned with the likes of Dr. Mindy Peltz, who for a long time was about, you know, fasting for women and as being a health panacea almost.

32:01
But then to your point, these are, you know, these women have the intention of the audience that they're talking to are very different. But they're all, we're all in the same space. And I think this is this explosion of information availability. So with podcasts, with social media, with newsletters, with, you know, books and courses, you can get your information from

32:31
almost, you know, like the same information is out there and you're, you're sort of having to filter it through to your point, what it is that you need. And so it's not that anyone is incorrect. It's just that the message is not for everyone, even though because these people have huge audiences, the whole population is sort of getting it. That's a really good point. mean, just, if, just as a maybe helpful check is as you

32:58
as people go forward and they're absorbing information or hearing messages, like, who is this for actually? Who is this targeting? And I would, yeah, I would acknowledge, I mean, some of the advice or, you know, research around intermittent fasting. mean, those, that's for a certain group of people who, like, who really potentially are in the grip of, you know, something like sort of more advanced insulin resistance. And I think, you know, which is quite different from a very active

33:28
athlete or so I mean, there's just this there's such different places. And, you know, perhaps that can that can help a little bit. I mean, there's obviously not one answer through all of this. does bring it back to I'll just say again, that internal locus of control, just the other thing. Okay, so what, what serves me here? And what isn't for me? Like what which parts of this messaging actually isn't about me? And being, yeah, able to just

33:56
say, okay, close the door on that. That doesn't involve me. And um yeah, and it's tricky because it's always through the, you know, the background of um like our own personal anxieties and um what we... So I'll give another example, just more concrete examples. So um my Achilles heel or like my weak spot through my years, like has been sleep. So I've just always had this narrative, like I'm not a good sleeper. And, you know,

34:25
And I unfortunately like went through a lot of years of kind of comparing my sleep to other people. So I had as my benchmark, my, so my husband likes needs, he seriously does need like nine hours. just some, sleep is one of those things where a large, lot of it's genetic. Um, we need different amounts of sleep. I think that's pretty clear in the research people biologically to be healthy. There's not one size fits all amount of sleep. And so for years I went through, I was like comparing it's like, Oh, I'm such a terrible sleeper. I'm not sleeping like.

34:52
the nine hours that he is. And finally, one day the penny dropped. I'm like, wait a minute. Maybe I'm just a different person. I need some. And so maybe a lot of this thinking sleep is this big problem I have to solve. Some of that was just my own anxieties around it. Yeah, I'm hoping that's a good illustrative example. That could apply to other things. No, I totally agree with that.

35:22
Lara, how much of the peptide story or this sort of, you know, there's been an explosion in peptides over the last year, at least in my social media feed, have you? Like maybe we're a little bit protected because in New Zealand and maybe Australia, they're not so widely available, but it feels like a lot of people, like a lot of accounts, which I don't necessarily follow, but they're just in my feed, is like,

35:50
know, peptides are the panacea and, you know, as you're heading to your doctor to get your estradot patch or whatever, you need to pick up some, I don't know, GLP or something like that, which, you know, will help with the inflammation of menopause and, you know, all of these things that you're also experiencing is because you've not, you don't have a deficit of peptides, but these can really help. Like, are you noticing that? Yeah, well, I mean,

36:17
To some degree, think it's a little bit outside of, to be honest, I will admit something. I don't follow lot of health accounts and I don't listen to a lot of health. My podcast preferences are, I listen to your podcast sometimes, but I generally like history podcasts and biology, science podcasts. So I'm not fully up to speed necessarily with the current trends.

36:42
I'll just speak a little to peptides because I'm finding it more than anything. I'm just finding it as a curious, how would I frame this? Like another sort of narrative in health. I mean, because I've been doing this for so long, every five to 10 years, obviously there's a new kind of narrative that takes hold. And if anyone's interested in like history of medicine and I mean, that's, that's a whole other, that is relevant to today's conversation. But like so much of uh

37:13
our understanding of health is a combination between our biology and real symptoms being fed through whatever narrative is the current thing. And it's like this feedback loop gets set up too with the narrative. So around peptides, I think there's a lot of power in the word itself. I actually had a bit of a conversation with AI about this. So because peptides,

37:42
is actually a very broad term. So it obviously does, I mean, it just means like, obviously like a chain of amino acids of a certain length. I mean, it does, does describe, we have many, many peptides in our own body, including some hormones, know, growth hormone and insulin and oxytocin are all, and GLP-1 obviously are peptide hormones. So then you have, I mean, I've just been trying to sort this through my own brain. So then you have obviously some medications that are analogs of those hormones are peptide.

38:12
based medications, but it's a huge variety of things.

38:19
How do I say this? Biologically, through my lens as a biologist, peptides aren't sort of, there's no unifying thing that ties them together apart from the size, like the actual molecule size that they are. Do know what I'm saying? So they're not a group, they're very broad. And some of the peptides are, I mean, as far as I can tell, some of the ones that are being used or taken.

38:48
as a supplement almost, which I find interesting through my sort of background of naturopathic medicine, but they're, I mean, they're medicines. Like there are a lot of them are, they're medicines basically. Like they're not derived from, as far as I can tell. Yeah. So I don't know. mean, I, I'm not pro or anti them. I'm more just like a head scratching moment of like, okay, what's going on? And also some of the, the fact that the GLP-1 medications work so well or potentially like

39:17
work so well with your microdosing them or I mean, that's obviously a bigger conversation, but the efficacy and intriguing nature of the GLP-1 medications to me anyway, unless I'm missing something, I don't see how that conveys like efficacy to the category of peptides in general, right? Like they're all different, all the different peptides are their own thing. Would be my, I don't know, what do you think? I mean, I'm actually finding the whole thing very puzzling.

39:45
But I know it's popular and so obviously, you know, you could in the show notes, you can put, if you've had conversations with experts on this. Yeah, different perspectives. I'm thinking about it from a, in our conversation about what it takes to be healthy and what needs to be a requirement or how it's fixed a certain problem. And then what a bonus I've now lost 15 pounds. Like I've seen like just health and well,

40:14
previous health, people who are in the health space, who maybe moved on from the health space because they got sick of, they almost reached that point where they were just saturated with partly their own messaging, which they then sort of switched, but then other people's expectations of what they say about health. And they're like, right, I'm out. I am just going to move to pottery and do this completely other different thing.

40:42
and actually be anti-diet, which is no problem, anti-diet and anti anything to do with it, have then sort of now shifted into the space of, I realized that GLP-1 could help with my anxious brain or how I feel about food. then I've, now I'm finally myself again. And hey, look, I've lost like 15 pounds. I find it is...

41:11
This might be a tangent to our conversation, but I feel like it's all part of it. I'm not sure that it is a panacea for some people for a couple of things related to what they might be experiencing. Well, that's not new with medications though, I'll just say.

41:34
this, oh, and it's like, oh, it's like, you can help with this, it can help with this, and you get a set of steak knives with it. we're definitely, I mean, I'm not anti the GLP ones at all. Like, and I do, I do get that they have this, you know, receptors on many cells. And I think there is, I think they're interesting. Like I said, I think biologically, it's super interesting, actually, all the effects they can have, but we are at the same time in a moment with them. And um it does remind me

42:04
like for what it's worth, like just back in the 90s. So I was like an early naturopathic doctor in the mid 90s, just kind of getting started. And that's when SSRIs were first invented basically when they were first put out there. they, and I'm not saying they're the same type of medications, like they're obviously quite different from the GLP ones in lots of ways, but there was a similar like,

42:31
they can do no wrong. Like they are amazing. I just remember thinking like it was just like, oh, and they help with this and they help with this. And then I was like, even as a naturopath back then, I'm thinking, gosh, they sound, I should maybe take this. This is like, and I didn't have depression, but it's like, these sound really good. Like they must just be really good for the brain somehow. It's just like this getting really caught up in like, yeah, I mean, there's always going to be, I was just talking with a colleague, a very smart colleague of mine about the GLP ones and you she,

43:00
prescribes them. it's not like, I'm not anti them at all. you know, there's going to be um just biologically, I'll just say just both speaking through a lens of biology and through a lens of medical history, there's going to be a cost. They're not cost free, like there's going to be, something. um I mean, I think there will be I mean, I think it depends on the individual, obviously, in the dose, and I get micro dosing versus but I mean, they work on the brain.

43:29
They work on the reward system. So you do sort of have to think, are they just tonics for the brain or is there going to potentially be an eventual downside to having been on them? I mean, I'm just speculating. I'm more just kind of putting it in the framework of, guess, just letting... I do think medical history is quite interesting just to zoom out a little bit and just realize whatever era people are in and whatever the thing that

43:59
is like the thing at the time. Everyone's into it. They're like, oh, there's no downside. I'm talking like 100 years ago, it's like mercury is great for infections. What could possibly go wrong? I mean, I know that's an extreme example, but and then of course my area, which I do know a lot about is contraceptive medications are amazing. They clear up your skin, they regulate your period, which obviously they don't do. What could possibly go wrong? It's like, well,

44:29
And I don't exclude some of the natural treatments as well. I mean, there'd be an overenthusiasm for this. even just, I'm just giving you another example from the natural health world. So back in the 90s, was like everybody had candida or there'd be like the narrative, whatever it is. And it's like, this explains everything. if you just, people are like, oh, my candida is making me anxious and my candida is, and then sort of later like then,

44:59
15 years later is like, my MTHFR gene mutation is making me this way and it's all about this. then, but then like five years later, everyone's just moved on and it's like all under another umbrella. And it's like, this explains everything and I just need the treatment. I mean, and again, I take people's symptoms very seriously, but through the lens of medical history, I mean, lot of these symptoms, I've got a few more things I want to say about this. a lot of,

45:27
I'm not sleeping well, I gave my own example of sleep, my gut's a little, I feel sort of bloated sometimes, I've got heart palpitations or I feel anxious. These are super common bodily sensations that through the ages, there have been different names for. And in every age, people were all in on that. This current narrative that we're in explains everything.

45:56
And obviously looking back, were all only ever approximations or some pieces of the puzzle. uh And the other thing to say about that is, and this is actually really important, I think, when people are both for practitioners listening and for people for their own health, just to understand that some people are just a lot more conscious of their bodily sensations than other people.

46:25
And this plays out in a lot of ways. So some people do notice all the, I feel too hot, or I feel prickly, or I feel this, or like, and that's just a type of nervous system. It's more common in women compared to men, which is as a general approximation. And then that kind of, if you're very sort of, there's words for it, which I don't know that like off the top of my head, I can't remember the terms, but like if you're just super sort of aware of your bodily,

46:55
ins and outs every minute of the day. That's going to potentially contribute to health anxiety in the way that people who just don't really think about that or notice that so much don't have. Does that track with your experience? A hundred percent. And in fact, maybe in part it's not, because I know that there women who have absolutely sailed through menopause.

47:25
out the other side, really didn't notice. There are a couple of things maybe popped up for them, but not really. There were no such problems, whereas you then know other people, other women who experience almost everything, to your point. I wonder whether it helps that now there's, no, it's not helpful. There are 108 symptoms of perimenopause. Which one do you have?

47:56
Well, I don't agree with that for one thing at all, like full stop, the 108 symptoms. That's not a thing. But I would just say, and this is like the feedback between the narrative and the... So if you think, oh I feel a little prickly or like, you know, and again, not to just diminish those as real symptoms. I mean, was going to use the example of brain fog, which is a super common symptom, by the way, like super, super common, can be from iron deficiency, gut health.

48:25
B12 deficiency, like, you know, there's lots of, and I'm not saying people should just put up with symptoms either, but the feedback mechanism I'm talking about is under a strong medical narrative would be like, oh, I've got a little brain fog today. It's like, oh, that's my perimenopause. Oh, that means I'm going to get dementia. Oh, that means also I'm going to get like sarcopenia and like, okay, oh my, have to take, I must take, because it sort of spirals into this like, okay, so that must mean I need estrogen.

48:53
And also I should do more strength training. And again, not that estrogen and strength training are bad, but if it's coming from this like spiral of, I think I'm, you this is happening and, you know, feeding back through a strong narrative that everyone's going to get dementia without estrogen. I mean, I keep coming back to that because it just actually breaks my heart that that's out there as a thing. Like, um and again, not to diminish dementia and not even to

49:23
Not even to diminish that there is a signal in the research around menopause and estrogen and dementia. mean, that's, again, we have to be able to, in our brains, hold things to be true at the same time. So it is true. There's a signal coming from the research around that. I have thoughts around that as all around sort of recalibration and evolutionary mismatch, but it doesn't translate into this, therefore every individual must be afraid if they don't take estrogen to...

49:52
It's just, yeah, it can be very destabilizing and unnecessary. just in terms of the symptoms of menopause, had... So again, some people are super conscious of just any bodily sensations will likely have more symptoms. um But I knew things had gone really off the rails with the perimenopause conversation when someone commented, I've given this example,

50:21
number of times, but like a few months ago, in this, yeah, in 2025, she said, Okay, so, you know, clearly, I'm in, you know, I'm hearing menopause, I'm 48, my periods are becoming further apart, you know, so all very logical, she said, but I feel fine. Does that mean something's wrong with me? Okay, okay, no, okay, no, no. Like, let's, let's, okay, let's back to the drawing board. Because just, again,

50:51
with periods, with perimenopause, I will set the bar. Those should not be inherently symptomatic. They are not medical conditions. There's nothing, it should be entirely possible to go through those, like menstrual cycles, irregular menstrual cycles and perimenopause without symptoms. I mean, that would be a reasonable expectation. At the same time, having some symptoms with them might be something quite

51:21
serious or it might just be signals from your body telling you, okay, you need more support in certain areas. Your nervous system needs more support or whatever it is. And that's manifesting as symptoms associated with those hormonal transitions. Laura, I loved how you talked about things having a moment. So the candida had its moment, the...

51:46
that SSRI was going to fix everything. think if I'm just reflecting back on messaging over the years, gut related, everyone has a leaky gut, which I don't, and I'm not discounting the importance of gut health, does everyone, is this something everyone needs to really be on hypervigilent on?

52:14
One other one, I'm sure like adrenal fatigue was overage. That's a perfect example. That's a perfect example. yes. So through the ages, like broadly, depending on what, like the symptoms are probably all the same as they were like 500 years ago, you know, still like not sleeping well, like, you know, just all various things, headaches and these are symptoms humans get. And again, I'm not saying people should put up with them, but

52:41
the explanation for them was the humors or like the stars or but like since about the last 80 to 100 years, it's been around hormones and lots of like adrenal fatigue and estrogen dominance and the end. Yeah, when you're kind of locked inside one of these narratives, I would also venture. mean, I'm hesitant, but I will say also is a lot of mental health. I mean, I would also kind of add ADHD to that. And I'm not saying

53:11
I'm not saying it's not a, know, the symptoms aren't real or I mean, I don't, I'm obviously not an expert in mental health, but we are in a moment where these diagnoses, I mean, I guess the question again has to be, they serving you? Like how much is this serving you? So there's a book on this topic called The Age of Diagnosis by Suzanne O'Sullivan. I've probably talked to you about it before.

53:40
Yeah, we've read it now. Right. So we can put that in the show notes. I mean, she has a great um paragraph in there. know we encourage people like the final chapter is the best chapter because it kind of it's the like synthesis of everything that came before. But she talks about how like a diagnosis can be very empowering. can be, oh, OK, this makes it sort of like you can have that power of, OK, this makes sense. You know, I'm not just a

54:10
bad person. you know, I do, you know, there are some things going on with my nervous system that sort of help to explain why I've, you know, struggled with certain types of functioning compared to maybe my friends. And so she's like, you know, that's great. And if a diagnosis is helpful, if it points to ways to feel better, but sometimes that's not what's happening. And if a diagnosis just spirals down,

54:40
to just feeling more more anxious about health, then it hasn't served you. And that would be true with adrenal fatigue or, and I know we sort of, I mean, I think we have this, even I'm thinking, well, I mean, there's legitimate medical diagnoses and then there's like the naturopathic ones. But I mean, honestly, through my broad arc and lens, I mean, I think some of the medical ones are just as wacky. Like the serotonin deficiency,

55:08
Yes. is not a thing. Yeah. Like, I'm pretty confident in saying that. Like, we are 40 years into that. And it's just, I know the SSRIs, you know, potentially, like now they're saying, well, no, they work by different mechanisms. Like, there's other ways that they're, you know, they're helping with GABA and fine. And they're helping metacondrial health and like, every, you know, feel like every couple of years is like, well, there's another thing that SSRIs do, which is fine. But

55:38
sure, but we were all sold on the serotonin deficiency narrative for a long time. That hasn't borne out. It's not a thing. no. Yeah. It is interesting with that whole... Because I really enjoyed reading that book actually. They talk a lot about what the utility is of getting your genetics done to see what your risk of

56:07
a certain thing is and some quite serious health conditions, diseases versus just knowing that you're at a predisposed risk for sort of XYZ, I'm not sure. And how is that going to sort of, if you can't do anything to change that, what does that mean for, I don't know, the 10, 15 years that you've got left before you start experiencing any of the complications maybe associated with it? Like you just live in fear for 10 to 15 years?

56:36
she dissects that a bit and she talks about some patients who just decide they don't want. I mean, this actually then feeds into the conversation about medical screening generally and the complexities of that. And I guess one thing she really brings home in that book, and this could apply to a lot of things, and I'll just mention mammogram screening and other, mean, without going too, she doesn't remember if she has a section on that, but other people have written about this.

57:07
We have this on the one hand, we're like, as much information as possible. This ties into our broader conversation. It's like with tracking and everything, it's like, surely on the one hand, you think, well, it's logical to just have as much information as possible, that that's going to be helpful. But that's not how it plays out. And I would even factor in a lot of the functional testing and getting all these numbers and all these values. It's like, what are you actually doing with that?

57:36
That's why I personally don't do a lot of functional testing. It's it's a lot of information coming at you. you don't... And the same would be true for some of the screenings. you don't... The science is not clear on what that means at the end of the day. And then people are potentially acting on these numbers that they've been given or these results on... As soon as the results on paper, it seems very important, right? Like you can't...

58:03
You can't unsee it. You can't unsee it once it's there. So there is an argument in some of the screening research is like, well, maybe we should just stop looking for some of these things. I would argue, I mean, I did a post recently about, I know we're of roping in a lot of things, but it is, this is a broad concept that applies to a lot of things. Like I don't, with my patients, test estrogen and progesterone that much. Even though estrogen and progesterone seem very important.

58:34
I mean, they are, but testing them is tricky because both because they move around a lot and even progesterone, the fun fact, this is crazy actually. It's on a 90 minute cycle and it fluctuates by eight times.

58:56
That is crazy. That is crazy. So a serum test could fluctuate by eight times in 90 minutes. So unless you're doing like a blood draw every minute, you know, you're looking for 10 minutes or something. So like, it's like, so that's, and then, um you know, I think some of the, I'll just say like some of the sort of functional methods of testing hormones, I mean, have some built in sort of uncertainties around some reasons potentially for falsely low levels. And I just feel like,

59:25
Yeah, I mean, I just, I guess this is kind of more like, and this is a values based thing. Like I don't collect a lot of numbers on myself, like I, because I am an anxious person. So I know that numbers would create anxiety. So this would be true. mean, I think this could be true for hormone testing, potentially for some kinds of screening, but like back to my example of sleep, my main, which I'm happy to disclose is like one of my main struggles. I have never tracked my sleep. Like that would be a disaster for me. Like I don't want me to know.

59:55
Yes. I don't need some app telling me that I don't want to know. I'm better off just... And I have read some sleep experts. Your best test of sleep is how you feel in the morning and during the day. if you feel rested and don't have daytime sleepiness, then it's probably a pretty good sign that sleep quality was sufficient. em

01:00:20
Yeah, I'm not a fan of test. I mean, I'm less as more as I become a more experienced clinician, I'm just less and less a fan of testing, which is not to say I never test. mean, I do. I do think some testing is important, of course, of course, but it's not like the more testing the better or the more diagnoses the better because it really can create sort of a paralysis of. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like you and I have spoken a lot about this, about how I get like overly anxious on the screening and

01:00:49
And then I feel like as a woman, it's almost every three months you've got some sort of like nurse hanging over your head. It's just about to drop when you've got like your pap smear, your further follow-up there, the mammogram, the mammogram you didn't schedule, the ultrasound, the appointment six weeks out to discuss those results. And so it's like your year, like particularly the older, it feels like your year is just sort of like blocked out by these.

01:01:16
you might get a month reprieve from not thinking about these things, but then suddenly they're there. So it's certainly unhelpful for me from that perspective. And interesting on the tracking, things which I love to track are my steps, because I get a thrill at getting a step count. I also like to, when I run, I like to know what my pace is. I don't know why, because it just...

01:01:44
seems to be getting worse as I get older. But also I like to know how long I run for and how many kilometers like that. Even though I would know that stuff without tracking, I like to hit start and stop on my watch. I I love the idea of tracking HRV and not sleep. I've never been a big fan of the sleep thing. I've just thought to your point, like, how do I feel in the morning? I don't need something telling me how I've slept. I already know how I sleep. ah

01:02:13
But I'm probably more minimalist than maybe you might expect of me or others might expect of me. And part of it is my slight cannot be bothered. And also if I had that data, oh I don't think I'd act on it. I'm not going to likely change a lot of what I'm doing now. In the face of this data, I'm likely not going to start doing other things.

01:02:41
depends on how I feel and what I'm experiencing, that would change how I might sort of um like some of my behaviors, but I wouldn't necessarily change it on Dada if I was feeling, you if I didn't think I was feeling any different. I think that's a different kind of right amount for every person, isn't there? Like how much, so for some people, again, I'm not a tracker at all, but like I also acknowledge that some people enjoy it. And I think for some people, is it kind of a gamifying of the, like just makes it more fun to like get

01:03:11
Yeah, and I can understand that. But see, that tracks with me too, things like Duolingo, the streaks and stuff. Just the way I am, for whatever reason, I always rebelled against that. I break my streaks. I don't want to have a streak. I don't want to be a slave to your stupid little icons that you're giving me for streaks. I'm out. I'm just doing this to actually learn the language. I don't want all the gamifying. But that doesn't mean...

01:03:40
I get that people enjoy it and that's totally valid. um And also like even steps. So for me, and again, I think it's fine to track steps. Like lot of my patients track steps. think it seems totally reasonable thing. I personally don't, mainly because I love walking. Like walking is, like I said in my metabolism book, it's almost sacred for me. Like, so walking is a thing.

01:04:07
especially like walking up hills and like so I don't like to me for me tracking would um take away. Yes, it would diminish the the the the kind of beauty of it to sort of minimize it like kind of make it about numbers which for me would just not fit at all. But the thing I do like to track sometimes when I'm hiking in the mountains or not track but know is altitude or elevation. I'm like I will be like oh was that like a

01:04:35
700 meter climb or, know, that's interesting to me. Just from a, I think from a topography, like size of the mountain, like that, that lens rather than, you know, how many flights did I, it's not a fitness thing for me. It's always just more like, yeah, landscape interest. Like it's kind of like a spatial thing. um mean, people, yeah, go ahead. Yeah. was going to say, you're so right. People are so different out there because I absolutely love, as you know,

01:05:03
hiking, running, jogging, being out there as well. But then at the end of it, when I'm like sitting at the pub and having a beer and having whatever, I love to look at my watch and go, okay, so what did that all equate to? it's all part of that experience. And of course there was a time in my life when I loved all of that stuff and this technology wasn't available and it was not like I enjoyed that less, but it almost enhances my sort of enjoyment. And maybe part of it is,

01:05:31
because it's more than just me at this point, because then I've got it on Strava, which is the app, and then my friends can see, and then I get good off from my friends. Yeah. That's fun. That's valid. think another thing that comes into this, just thinking about how different we are on this, and you and I are quite similar in a lot of ways, but we have different, obviously, experiences of that sort of tracking, which is fine. So it just kind of brings me to another point, which I think might help people.

01:05:59
when they're trying to filter through all the information that's out there. It's a very human and normal thing, I think, for health influencers, whatever their qualification, like even I see doctors even doing this, like when they found something that works for them, it's like they're evangelists for, well, I want all of you to have the benefits of what worked for me. But I mean, it's cliche, but like there isn't a one size fits all.

01:06:27
And so I'll just give another example. Like, you know, for some people in my clinical experience, this is just a very specific example, but like avoiding cows dairy is transformative and like can eliminate period pain and like, you know, but that doesn't mean every single person, like that doesn't mean that's a one size fits all for everybody. Right. And I think it does help. And I guess when you're following, when people are following influencers, it does help to know if they're seeing a

01:06:57
patient population. If they've had an opportunity to see how this works in lots of different people, because I'll just, I mean, I think I could just state categorically that anyone who has worked with a large number of clients will start to have built in this just deep knowledge that there's not a one size fits all. And that's why I would never, like in my work, like my husband's always trying to prompt me into like, share what you ate for lunch, like put a photo. I mean, part of it's laziness, because I just don't.

01:07:27
like feel like taking, I know you do, so this is fine, this is another way of different. I just never feel like taking pictures. I want to eat my lunch. I don't really want to a picture of it. But also, you know, I don't want people to, my followers to think, oh, this is what Lara does, so this is what I should do too. I mean, there's gonna be some basic principles. mean, I do eat. I mean, here's a basic principle that I think, that I do, that I'd like other people to also do.

01:07:57
Cook at home, cook with whole food ingredients as much as possible. I do feel like that's a bit of a deal breaker, like a really important thing for him. Do you agree with that? I agree. there are some in the Venn diagrams of all the different pieces of advice. This is another good way to filter through it. mean, when you get people from very different opinions all agreeing on certain things, then those certain things are definitely the thing.

01:08:27
cook at home as much as possible with whole food ingredients. And then like you get into the weeds as to what exactly those ingredients should be. would, I mean, I would, mean, now I'm just giving a bit of blanket advice, but I would say a little bit of animal product in there is pretty important for health. But then in terms of what macro proportion, I mean, there's not a one size fits all. And then, you know, all the different types of advice on exercise and even the fact that I'm not really a keen

01:08:55
fitness person, most people will agree, moving your body and maintaining some amount of muscle is important. So there's a few areas where everyone agrees and those, I think, that's a good starting places. Now, I agree. And I also think, Lara, I really love the concept of just that N equals one, you know, like, and you mentioned this, like, what are you listening to? What do you...

01:09:18
taking on board and are you trying it out to see whether it fits? And maybe you don't even need to try it out. Maybe you just need to sort of assess it against the sort of your own lived experience. like, that make sense for you and what you know about yourself? Because we so often give away our, know, almost we don't value about our own experience nearly as much as what maybe an expert might say about.

01:09:44
about us, even if they don't even know us. Absolutely. Yeah, this is this, which is not new. It's very human. I mean, of course we're going to want to trust the experts. mean, of course we do because we can't all have PhDs. Like we can't all sort of know every, but at the end of the day, yeah, it does have to be kind of filtered through. this make sense for me in an honest way and a way that's not because we have to consider too through that

01:10:15
that sometimes we have, well, just, mean, sometimes we have sort of self-destructive narratives about our health that have taken hold. And so I guess, you know, and that way I've talked about like sort of eating, know, disorder to eating and eating disorders, or in that case, yeah, there has to be, it's harder to be honest with yourself, I think about when there's something like that happening, but yeah, yeah, it's, I don't know.

01:10:44
I mean, it's just, it's just, it's actually just crazy how many different, if you just really objectively think about it, like how many different opinions about health there are. I mean, I there are different opinions about politics and almost any issue you're just going to get like, and also I guess I would say the other guiding principle that might help people. I don't know you think if this is fair or not, but I would say the angrier an expert seems about it and the more defensive they seem about

01:11:12
whatever it is that they've dug in on, the more cautious you should be around that. Do you agree? I feel like people are really confident and they're not going to be defensive about it. I agree. I agree. I've heard this so often and I feel like you and I probably do a good job of this is that uh we're open to changing our mind in the face of

01:11:41
new information or, and to your point, we know that we're not going to know everything. So actually being open about that and also not being so absolute in the way that you think about things or talk about things. think these are other good qualities that um people who share information, that people should look for in the people they're listening to actually.

01:12:10
Yeah, that's a guideline. Like if the person seems pretty relaxed in their view and not super defensive about it, that's probably going to be information that, especially if it's landing, know, feeling good and landing well. Yeah, that's true. And so, Lara, just to finish up, mean, you've shared some really good guiding principles. hope so. And I guess the, I mean, I guess for us, it's like,

01:12:38
I think a conversation like this is really helpful because sometimes you find yourself with someone saying something and you're like, oh, I need to address this point that this other person has said because it's, you know, so I find it's a good opportunity for me to reflect and catch myself before I'm sort of the opposite of what I'm trying to like come up against sometimes. that's interesting. I just will finish on this because I, again, I think partly maybe what's coming through, it's maybe my...

01:13:04
opportunity to confess this. mean, I do have a streak of laziness that em my husband has observed. Because people who don't know me as well say, oh, you work so hard. He's like, does she though? I appreciate that. And so just in that regard, I do not have the energy to debate people. my strategy, because I also don't like seeing people, I don't like seeing em

01:13:32
information on social media that I don't agree with. I don't love that process. don't like why did they say like I saw someone just the other day saying, oh everyone, you know, in your 30s, you should get this baseline estrogen and progesterone because that'll give you information in your I'm like, it won't like that's not going to help you in your 40s. Like, I'm sorry, but you again, just to come back to you actually are not going to learn that much from estrogen and progesterone testing. There's other things you can learn from like, you know, tracking, knowing whether you ovulate anyway, that's another topic, but like,

01:13:59
So if I'm seeing, I honestly, this is my, is bad, but like if I've, if I've noticed an account that is just saying things that I think are just completely wrong, I just mute them. is like really bad. Cause I guess that is also confessing that maybe I'm not allowing myself to be challenged, which it's part, it's laziness if that's the case. But yes, I mean, I think, yes, we have, should as influencers and experts out there, we should be able to.

01:14:28
accept criticism. And I think I do in my comment sections. People will say, I don't agree with that, which is not fun. em sometimes they have totally valid points. And actually, one comment on that, when people chime in, I'm a lot more willing to listen to them if they're trying to genuinely explain why they think what I've said is wrong. Then I'll just

01:14:55
like a word that gets put out there a lot right now is all you're spreading disinformation. I'm like, as soon as someone uses those terms, I'm like, just because something, just because what I'm saying is different than what you've heard from another expert doesn't immediately designated as disinformation or misinformation. really wish those terms had never come in. And I get that there is disinformation out there in the world, but like, you know, a genuine like

01:15:21
clinician or expert who's trying to share his or her opinion that is different from what you've heard before is not automatically disinformation. I completely agree with that. And I will say, Lara, that um I don't think that you need to worry that you're not putting yourself in the face of challenge. I mean, there is challenge, but also you're constantly learning. You're on Pub and you're in the science. It's not like just because you're out there on social media, you're not

01:15:49
and sort of leaving yourself open to attacks, I don't think that means that you're not open to it. You're willing to be challenged. And yeah, I agree with you on that. Actually, concerns me more, not concerns, like, why is there disinformation and misinformation? Why is there not like, when is disinformation actually? Because I was investigating, I I don't know. I had a reporter kind of trying to interview, So it was mainly because my...

01:16:17
The thing I've been most controversial about in my career has been criticism of hormonal birth control, which in some parts of the world is um more politically charged than here in New Zealand. mean, think that's not, you know, for reasons that I don't have to explain. But like I had a reporter kind of mainstream reporter sort of investigating me or trying to, she eventually did give her an interview and her beat is, you know,

01:16:45
disinformation experts. So she had designated me as a disinformation. So disinformation, misinformation is just saying the wrong thing. Disinformation is, you know, saying the wrong thing intentionally, apparently, apparently, like knowing it's wrong. Okay, saying it. Yeah. So that was very hurtful that she thought that about my critiques. anyway, anyway, I just quickly share with you because it's interviews are interesting because I did agree to give her an interview and

01:17:12
She ended up not using anything I said in her articles, which was quite interesting. she, um my husband's like, right. He said, okay, so record it and ask her to send you the full recording so she can't take anything out of context, which she did actually. She sent me the full video recording like this. And he was sitting off, he's not doing that now, but he was sitting off camera. So listening to the whole thing, both sides. And he said, if it starts going off the rails, I'm gonna just close your computer and not let you say anything bad.

01:17:42
But um I like to think, I mean, this is the other thing about health influencers and just in closing, we can talk about this being an expert, writing books, putting out podcasts like YouTube. As soon as you start putting out content, there are lots of opportunities to get things wrong. And it's not a pleasant experience. And I think people can probably think back of all the influencers they follow, all the experts.

01:18:10
almost without exception, there's going to be someone who on occasion got something wrong. it's just par for the court. It's just always going to happen. it's both a little bit nerve wracking for the people trying to take in the information, hoping everything you're saying is accurate. And it's also nerve wracking for the person, the expert. Don't you agree? I agree. How many opportunities to get things wrong. As you say, you look back at things you wrote 10 years ago, it's like, oh, I kind of wish

01:18:40
Yeah, I understand. I know. Lara, thank you so much for your time this Yeah, thanks. Really appreciate you taking... This is just, as always, a really good conversation just to explore the ideas a bit further. And I would be surprised if anyone listening to this aren't aware of you or don't know you, but we can people um find out more from you, which is assuredly there is no disinformation that you're putting out there.

01:19:08
uh So I'm pretty easy to find my main landing site is LaraBraden.com and from there I've got my books and links to social media and yeah, I've got a little solo podcast. I don't put as much content as you, I occasionally do a little. You do solo podcast too sometimes, don't you? Every Monday, little mini Micropedias. Yeah, that's right.

01:19:31
can't believe you don't know that. I'm just kidding. Yes, I do know that. No, I do know. Well, like I said, I'm bad. don't listen to health podcasts as much as No, I don't blame you. I don't blame you. You can reach... At the minute, I feel like I've reached the saturation point with my health podcast, which is really interesting. I think it's a timely year. Yeah. I guess, what other types of podcasts do you listen to? Do you have other... What's your other guilty pleasure podcast? Wow. That's a really great question. Almost everything is...

01:20:00
No, it's all health related. It's all health and fitness related. is actually. Isn't that interesting? Like it's either that or music. I can't listen to anything fictional. Like I'm like, can read fiction. I love reading fiction, but I cannot. but you don't. No. I'll just quickly share, you know, in closing, I'm sure people have signed off by now, I'll just share like the two podcasts I've been listening to lately, not health related. One I just finished listening to was called The Last Invention, which is

01:20:28
I'm just plugging it because it's actually really good about AI. It's about all the different views about where we're going with AI, which I think most people in 2025 maybe should be thinking about. then the other one is called... I've always loved the history podcast and I've like various ones I've listened to through the years, hardcore history. And the one I'm into right now is called The Rest is History. And they have just discovered they have like 600 episodes. So I can listen to one on ancient Greece and I'm listening to one on...

01:20:58
like the beginning of the Frank Empire, Dark Ages. Yeah, so a little kind of obscure, but... No, I love that. And in fact, I uh do like Smartless, which is the Jason Bateman uh podcast when they interview um artists and movie stars and actors. So that is one which I enjoy. It's hilarious, actually.

01:21:24
So they do a good job. But that AI one sounds super interesting, Thank you. All right. Well, you have a great day. All right. Well, thanks again. I'll see you and I'll see you soon. I'll see you in person in a couple of months. Lovely. Thanks, Laura. Okay. Bye.

01:21:50
Alrighty, hopefully you enjoyed that talk. really did. I just love the thoughtful, considered way that Lara approaches health. She certainly isn't one to overdramatise anything and is so careful about how she words things, but this is a topic that we have chatted about personally, you know, very often actually as to the role that we play in helping people be their healthy self, but without sort of...

01:22:18
leading and without it leading to overwhelm and neuroticism. anyway, let me know what you think. Next week on the podcast, I speak to Curtis Gillespie-Sayer on what do you know it, optimizing health, sort of. uh Until then though, you can catch me over on Instagram threads and X @mikkiwilliden, Facebook @mikkiwillidennutrition, or head to my website, scroll right down to the bottom, pop your

01:22:46
email in there and jump on my email list. It would be lovely to see you. Alright team, you have the best week. See you later.