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Hey everyone, it's Mikki here. You're listening to Mikkipedia. This week on the podcast, I speak to osteopath and running enthusiast and my good friend, Matt Stewart. And we have a wide ranging evidence informed conversation that begins actually with my tendinopathy. So you guys join us right at the beginning when we're just chatting about my

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current injury status actually, but Matt dives deeper into the underlying pathophysiology, why it develops and what effective treatment actually looks like beyond generic rehabilitation. And from there our discussion broadens to explore how stress and inactivity influences tissue health, low tolerance and recovery, affecting not only clinical populations but athletes who may otherwise be training consistently and doing everything right.

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We also unpack the role of the brain and pain perception, including how pain can be upregulated or dampened and why this understanding is critical for both injury management and performance. Throughout the conversation, Matt shares how his interest in ancestral and evolutionary foundations has shaped his clinical approach. And this is how Matt and I know each other through our shared interests in understanding health from that evolutionary lens. Matt.

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talks about this as a framework that helps bridge modern sports science, osteopathy and real world movement into how he deals with his clients and patients. this episode will appeal to clinicians, coaches, athletes and anyone interested in how the body adapts to load and stress over time. And I think you're really going to love it Matt does such a great job of unpacking all of these areas. I have links in the show notes to

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Some of the things we talk about including Mark Sisson's archetypal rest postures video, Matt's links at unityosteo and you can book an appointment with him either if you're in Auckland in person or via telehealth unityosteopathy.co.nz and there's also the clinic Instagram link at unity underscore osteo and running related information at running underscore osteo.

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So that's how you can find both the links we discuss and also Matt Stewart. And for those of you unfamiliar with Matt, and I know actually there'll be a lot of people listening who will know Matt, but those unfamiliar, Matt Stewart is a highly experienced osteopath with more than 25 years in clinical practice. He holds a master of osteopathy from Unitech Institute of Technology and brings a broad evidence informed approach to helping clients improve function, manage pain and move well.

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Matt's work is grounded in the osteopathic principle that the body has an innate capacity to regulate and heal itself when structure and function are supported. His clinical approach integrates cranial osteopathy, myofascial techniques, joint mobilization and manipulation tailored to the individual needs and preferences of each client. He's completed extensive postgraduate training in cranial, fascial, respiratory, and foot and ankle techniques.

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including advanced study at the Osteopathic Centre for Children San Diego under Dr. Viola Freiman, further training with Dr. Robert Fulford in Oregon, and specialist foot and ankle training in California and Australia. In addition to his clinical work, Matt is an accredited athletics New Zealand coach and has a strong interest in working with runners and athletes to support performance, recovery, and injury management.

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repeated in events ranging from road races to marathons and ultramarathons including three comrades ultramarathons in South Africa which is quite a feat. So I hope you really enjoy this conversation. Before we crack on into it I would like to remind you the best way to support this podcast is to hit subscribe on your favorite podcast listening platform that increases the visibility of Micopedia in amongst literally thousands of other podcasts out there.

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so more people get to hear from experts that I have on the show, such as Matt Stewart. Alright team, enjoy this conversation.

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differently from some of the other tendons that are basically right there, like super close in the back of the hip and their positional tendons, they're really short. Sorry. They've got a really short tendon usually, and they don't elongate much because positional tendons, you want whatever it's positioning to stay in that position, right? So around the hip, right? When you're running, want your, you don't want to drop, you know, when you're running, you want your pelvis to stay horizontal as you shift from one.

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leg to the other hamstrings doing something completely different. It is doing the energy recoil, absorb force recoil. And once you get an injury in there, um, there's a few things that happen, but the tendon gets shielded from that force. Um, and then it doesn't get, and it's the force that gives it the stimulus to recover. So it's, kind of not a great cycle to be in. So how do you get,

05:28
How do you get those fibers? And there's a way to do that. so if you haven't done that, it might be something to try. Isometric loading. Isometric loading, end of range, but also there's some end of range loading, very low level uh isometrics with vibration. Vibration. Yes. And not force play and vibration where you stand on the uh power plate kind of stuff.

05:58
Although that has its place, it's not quite like this. You put it directly on the muscle, m you know, up close to the tendon. So with that, you're actually strengthening the muscle. uh And then, the end of range, long hold, isometrics, and the tendons. Right. Do you have that on email, Matt? Yeah, I'll just have to dial that one in. But the other thing is, if you're going, you go to the States quite a bit. Yeah.

06:26
There's a guy who sells the... I've got a big unit here for doing vibration. But um when you put these little units onto the muscle, you your Velcro on them, and you hold that isometric for 10 minutes, it's a long time. Yeah, but it's super low contraction. So you're looking at just holding that muscle against the tiniest weight. So in the hamstring, you'd be prone and you might have like a...

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you know, one of those one kilo ankle weights and your legs out straight and just loading it. Um, and you're holding that position. It to be super low because you're going to hold it for 10 minutes and you do that protocol three times. So it's half an hour. Uh, you do that three days in a row. And what's incredible is you're really actually, you know, you're, really, um, organizing your brain. Uh, you're getting rid of that cortical inhibition, which is that other factor.

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So you've got the tendon shielding. It's not getting the force to remodel, but your brain is also sending you, so, hey, don't do that. Cause that really hurts. You know, so you lose your power. When you do these super long load isometrics with a vibration, you're basically bypassing, bypassing the inhibition. That is exactly what happens when I'm running. My everything shuts down. Like, like everything seems to shorten and tighten and my speed just goes like,

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like just close and so on. like, oh my God, I was running five tens and now I can't even run six minutes. Yeah. And because it's hamstring, you just can't get that leg out in front of you, right? And then when you, in that deceleration, the hamstrings decelerate your foot and brace your foot for heel strike and brain saying, I don't like that. Let's shorten things up. And you get into a position where, yeah, what's going on here? Does a tens machine do it?

08:21
Different stimulus. So TENS is electrical and this is mechanical vibration. Right. Yeah. And so you're stimulating, I believe you're stimulating different receptors with the vibration. It's the muscle spindles, which tell the brain rate of stretch, degree of stretch. And then when you're getting the signal going up and some other mechanisms, your brain's going, Hey, we're going to make it feel tighter.

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tighter, tighter, tighter through the muscle spindles. And when you put that vibration on there, it's like putting AC DC on and on 10, right? It just cannot hear the signal and it sort of fatigues and you get this window where, you can, you're basically resetting the tension up in the sensory motor cortex. So it's really useful, especially if it's been there for a long time. So once you've gone into the chronic phase, so you know, you're three months plus there's more of the cortical inhibition.

09:20
That'll be me. What about a massage gun? that do it? You've got to hold it there for 10 minutes. I could try. You could try. You could rig up something, get some Velcro straps or something. And I was telling someone, there's an app on the iPhone called Vibration Analysis. So the Hertz you want to be at, 50 sort of...

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I mine set at 40, I've just jacked it up to 50 because the research says 40 to 60 hertz, 50 seems to be like where you get the good, like more juice. And you get this app, you know, put it on your phone, press play, and you put the massage gun there and it will tell you what hertz it's oscillating at. Okay. Which is really useful because then you know you're on 50 hertz and you're doing...

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you're getting the mass bang for your buck. 40 is OK, a bit higher, it also depends on how far it's vibrating. And then do you direct it to the hamstring? Yeah, you put it on the proximal hamstring. So this is treating the muscle. because, of course, the muscles connect to the tendon, Not all the fibers. And that's an interesting thing, you know, in terms of. um

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you know, fascia is this, you know, everywhere continuous kind of thing. Um, the muscle fibers don't, not all of them go all the way through from top to bottom. A lot of them go out to the side and go through into the, onto the fascia. There are a few that go directly onto the tendon. And so you need to be able to pull on, um, all parts of the tendon. Problem being is that low level contraction, you're usually getting those type one fibers, you know, slow twitch.

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you know, walking and stuff. And so they'll only be pulling on 20 % of the tendon and you may not be getting the amount of shear that you need to stimulate those tenocytes because it's that movement that makes them go, Hey, I'm, know, I need to produce some more collagen here and give them the stimulus. Um, so yeah, the force is going out, uh, to the sides of the connective tissue. Some of it's going straight down.

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So one of the things that you want to try and get some oblique, uh, force through the hamstring. That's one of the problems with running, right? Because it's particularly road running. It's very much going to be the same. It's going to hitting the same fibers. And what you want is try and share it, share those tendons, the fascicles on each other. Cause the tennis sites are sitting in between, um, they're getting forced and there's also a fluid.

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component to that when the tendon gets stretched, squeezes out the fluid and the tenocytes are paying attention to that. um So you want to get variety into your hamstring and you want to get, so that's for the tendon and then the muscle, obviously you want to get as strong as possible. Yeah. So what I'm hearing Matt is I put the, if I'm going to try this with my massage gun, which will be helpful for anyone listening to this.

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they're much more likely to have a massage gun. I haven't even done an introduction to what you're about, but we'll get there. But the, so you take the massage gun, put it on your phone, get that 50 Hertz. For runners and walkers, it tends to be the outside quad. You know, it's, you just, you can tell a runner, you get into the outside quad. It's got that stabilizing effect onto the IT band.

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And, you know, runners, you can just feel the IT bands and habitual walkers. They're more, they're remodeled through there, right? Because they're taking the force through. You come in onto that lateral quad, you try and get your massage gun with the biggest disc, you know, not the pokey little prongs, but the biggest disc and find that 50 Hertz, press it into the quad and just work up and down through there, through the middle third of the muscle. And

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um, it gets down deep. So you're simulating deep receptors without having to put huge amounts of force through, like with an elbow or, you know, fingers or, you know, um, a lacrosse ball. So you don't have that pain, which automatically your brain's gonna go, Hey, I don't like that. I'm going to contract that muscle. So you kind of working against yourself with the vibration, you're getting to those muscle spindles and you're oscillating them and sending the signal where they just basically

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Um, you can sort of resetting them. So you're not getting that signal going back and then setting the tension in the muscle. So I do it in my quad from a hamstring. You would do it. Yeah. Cause there's a reciprocal, um, arrangement, right? So when you're contracting your quads, your hamstrings have to release. Um, and so if you can, you can release your quads, typically we find a lot of tension through the quads. If the quads are tighter, the hamstrings tend to be a little bit stiffer. The hamstrings.

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feeding into the top of the back of the leg, into the gastroc. They sort of do this acrobat handshake. And so then you get tension down into your calf. So if I was going to start somewhere, start in the quad and you may find that a lot of that tension might drop away. So if you start there, then you're dealing with maybe a cleaner slate that then you can go into the hamstring and then you can go into the, into your calf muscle,

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the triceps sure, which is those two muscles that, you know, so important for running and walking. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, Matt, you've given me some goals for today. think this whole day is going to be taken up with downloading that app, figuring out the hurts on my massage gun and then doing three times 10 minutes. So that's that vibration with the vibration, um, specific to the muscle.

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the end of range isometrics are both muscle and tendon. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And they're not 10 minutes. I mean, the whole workout would be 10 minutes, but you're not holding one contraction. You know, doing sort of calf raises. mean, you'd be in a heap on the floor. I tell you, I've just got a new, you know, these inclined slant boards to do calf raises.

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Well, one that not just goes backwards. So you got to incline that way, but out to the side. They go out to the side so that, um, it puts more load on the outside of your leg on the shin muscles. And that as you run faster, that muscle becomes really, really important for keeping the big toe down on the ground for push off. And you know, as a runner, as a walker, that's the last thing, right? That's where your propulsion comes from. So if you have a really strong, um,

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you know, big toe and the big toe is in the right position with good flexibility, then you're going to have more propulsion force. Uh, so that's another thing to have a look at. And we tend to just stick our feet and shoes and then, you know, we don't really look at those muscles in there. Um, we might, we might do calf raises and things like that, but having a look at some of those smaller intrinsics is really important for not only runners, just when they're in good shape.

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But also when the injuries strike, plantar fasciitis, Achilles tendinopathy, hamstring tendinopathy, patella tendinopathy, so runner's knee, jumper's knee, all those types of things. Yeah, nice one. it's funny, I was not going to actually mention my hamstring tendinopathy and I wasn't going to press record, but I thought I want to record this so I actually have record of it so I can go back to it. But also, you're such a nerd.

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that I wanted to capture the nerdiness on the podcast so people got an appreciation for the way that you practice and the way that you think about things. very, I can see your brain sort of like the hamster in your brain sort of like on its hamster wheel going round and around as you're sort of talking through all that, Matt. Well, maybe that's why we're good friends. Cause we do go, didn't you coin the term that the Mickey tangent or something, know, tangent, not tangent, but you know, some of these things they do really relate to.

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the question, which is, you know, why do we get injured? Um, how does our body handle that? How do we get it back to handling that function? And then, you know, how does structure and function to relate, which is what osteopathies, you know, it's one of its core tenants. When you start looking at that, then you've got to go back in time because you're like, well, hang on. We're, we're, uh, we're the only mammal that stands up. Um, we're the only primate that really stands up on a

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long-term basis. are some, know, bonobos that do some interesting things, you know, walking around. They have to use their arms overhead to counterbalance. They're very cute. But, you know, we're very adapted for, and we made some compromises there. So those compromises can come back um to give us some problems. Yeah. Well, interesting. I'm curious, Matt, did your, so a couple of things, obviously,

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I mean, it's obvious to me and it is obvious to the listeners because they would have heard my introduction to you in this conversation anyway. You're an osteopath. You've got a particular interest in evolutionary biology, ancestral movement maybe. This is how we have come to be good friends and have known each other for over 10 years, like 12, 13 years now, which is crazy. Yeah, because the Ancestral Health Society started off in 2014, I think.

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Yeah, but you know, it was mutual friend Mandy Crawford who was studying and I knew her and she said, oh, you get on well with my friend Mickey um and that predates even that. it goes back before that, um that sort of that would must be a UT crossover with Mandy. Yeah, it absolutely would be. So that's how we know each other. But like, did your interest in evolutionary biology

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come first or is it part of that osteopathic training? So what sort of sparked your interest in understanding movement and pain and function from that evolutionary perspective? Well, yeah, I did think this morning that you would ask me a question like this and I was thinking about it. I would say number one, was we had Phil Beach come into a lecture in our training very early on. Phil Beach, know, he

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did some lectures uh at ancestral house, symposiums about his models. And so he'd just come back from London where he'd been working and coming up with this theory, which I think he had been working on since the eighties. And in particular, archetypal postures, which are these postures of rest, right? So furniture is a very recent development, right? know, chairs, couches. And so

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in our development, we're in reference to the ground and you know, you don't see ancestral and so have a gatherers stretching, right? Don't stretch. They're not, you know, so how are they keeping pretty good musculoskeletal health and getting around without doing these things that we do? Well, cause it was baked in, was baked into how they were living cause they're on the floor. Um, and they were depending on whereabouts in the world they were, you tend to see different

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archetypal postures. So, um, and places where the ground is dry and hard and it's hot, you might sit with your legs out in front of you, you know, long sitting, it's called because the big veins and arteries in the back of your leg and contact with the cool earth. And so that would be comfortable. Plus, you know, there's, it's not wet. So, you you're not going to have stuff stuck to your backside places where it's wet. Um, you might squat.

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right? Cause you're keeping your, your, um, your body off the ground. So you're not getting mucky, you're not getting wet. Um, and you see it in Japan where I live for a little while as you spend a long time on the floor and tatami mats. So you, you kneel with your, you know, your legs underneath you. Um, and the traditional furniture is on the floor like these, um, tables that, uh, and there's a, there's a,

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can be a pit which your legs go into so can sit normally, or it's just a tatami mat. So you're sitting there cross-legged or you're sitting on your knees and um it's comfortable because of that matting. And also you have these great tables that are heated underneath. So in winter, you've got this little um like a duvet that comes over your lap. And so you're nice and warm under that with your legs folded. So that's very much baked into that traditional lifestyle. Other traditions, they might be sitting cross-legged.

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Um, and you've got some others like Thailand, they sit, uh, with their legs off to the sides, kind of maybe a side sitting or mermaid position. And that becomes sort of cultural reasons, rude to point your feet at someone. Um, and so you're still on the floor. So you've got all those postures there that Phil was talking about. And, um, so that was really on early on in my training. Um, and then you get, uh, later on the course I, um, trained in.

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our other contact, Rob Moran, who was my supervisor, he then brought in a paper that incorporated evolutionary biology and these modifiable determinants of health, which brought it out from physical health, um you know, how our bodies respond to our environments, but also, you know, how we respond to the calories we're taking in and how many calories like so looking at um that mismatch between

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our own, our old environment and our new environment. Right. And so that broadened it out. But for me, it was started with Phil talking about these archetypal postures. Yours has another aspect of that is if you're on the floor, you got to get up off the floor to start walking. Right. So how do you do that? Well, you've got to get up. So you've got to have some strength there. So that's a good measure of strength. So, you know, I'd encourage people to

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you know, see how they can get off the floor. If that's a problem, that's, you know, that's a real breakdown in our physical being because we really should be able to do that without even thinking. Right. So we've got these rest postures. We've got this, um, feel calls and the recto sizes, you know, getting up and off the floor. Um, if you fall over, you want to be able to get off the floor. You want to be able to get down and get up. Um, so you've got those two components and, and then you get into the movement. So walking,

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and running, um, and how we're evolved to do those things over a very long period of time, depending on where you want to start, it's either, you know, six million, eight million years ago. Um, and I think the issues that we have, and we talk about the mismatch and you're often talking about that mismatch in terms of diet, right? You know, this mismatch between, um, this old,

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DNA that evolved in an environment where calories are sparse. You had to go out and find them or hunt it down. Uh, and you had to be really economical with your calories, right? And a lot of biology is taking energy and turning it into living tissue. Um, you know, turning it into other offspring so that your genes can continue. So you had to be really efficient. Otherwise, you know, you weren't here.

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And there's plenty of primates or hominids that didn't make it here because they weren't efficient because their adaptions got them into a bit of a cul-de-sac. And we were kind of lucky in some respects because things changed in the environment going way back that fitted our little niche. And so we're here today. It was a close run thing. know, so yeah, there was a...

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by some theories, we came down to a very small cluster of humans sitting the very tip of South Africa there. And from that group spread out across Africa and then all through the world as Homo erectus homo sapiens. So yeah, we, we got these adaptions to our environment. Our environment has changed radically and that's where the mismatch is. And that's why, you know, get this mismatch hypothesis. And that's not a, you know, that's

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That's a feature, not a bug. thing that's, you know, our anatomy, DNA is great for that environment that we evolved in. And now the environment has changed so radically. And there's that mismatch, right? And then the next component of that is the cultural evolution is just lazily quick, you know? You're just thinking in the last sort of say 15 years, smartphones, light buttons, uh

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memes, doom scrolling, endless news, all those types of things. And whether our brains are capable to do that, because we evolved to live in caves and pick berries.

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Well, you know, it's interesting though, isn't it? Because one of the arguments, not necessarily against that mismatch, but it's about how, you know, to your point, there was something about us that allowed us to survive, you know, like we didn't end up in that cul-de-sac that we weren't sort of boxed by our adaptations and we were able to sort of survive and move on, move on. But are we...

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people would argue that actually we're resilient, you know, not everyone. Obviously there are a lot of people who are really sensitive to um the food, to um the environment, to toxins and things like that, like super sensitive. But then there are others who are just really resilient, like couldn't argue that in fact as homo sapiens, we're actually very resilient to our environment. Yeah, think we, that's a valid point. And I think we are.

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Resilience could mean not specializing too much. So we've got this range. It's adaptability, I think. So we can eat high-fatty foods and we can eat high-carb foods. And there's populations that do that, right? Catarvans is like very high-carb diet. Arguably, you say it's very unprocessed or used to be. And yet you can have these very high-fat diets, high protein, in your...

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diets. Now, whether we're adapted for uh health and we're not. So we're not evolved for health, we're evolved for fitness to reproduce. So we were evolved for fertility. there's a trade-off there. Well, maybe it's not a trade-off. What we're trying to do in a lot of the conversation is about longevity. And I think that's shorthand for um life uh expectancy with good health, right?

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good health so we can keep our mobility and we can live independently for a long time. So there is a bit of a trade off there. think, once you realize that this evolutionary history, six, eight million, that's why we're here. And it sets us up to be a certain way and we can sort of just give ourselves some grace. That's great. We got here, we survived as a species. And then some of these things are, they're not our fault.

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you know, this is how we are. So we kind of have to think about it differently. So particularly on the gallery base, um we're very efficient at movement. And so we have to use movement that increases, you know, maybe increases ah that burn rate as best as we can. I would say, well, walking really doesn't do that. We're incredibly efficient. It's not to say you shouldn't walk.

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uh It's got plenty of other benefits, but we've got to look at that environment and go, well, we're really thrifty with our calories. We've got all these adaptions in our body to be efficient. What other things do we need to intelligently think about to make that balance easier between how we're being set up over time to the environment we face now? um So yeah, there's an adaptability there. um It's not an inevitability, but you've got to say like, uh

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this is how we are. We're upright, we're standing, we're very efficient with our movement. So what can we do on the other side of the ledger to uh accommodate for that? So yeah, some people, there's the evolutionary biology piece and then there's the shorter timeframes. So that's maybe going out eight million years. And then you've got the developmental uh aspects of health and disease that Doe had, which is kind of looking at your parents and your grandparents.

31:07
And they're tweaking of the DNA with epigenetics that set you in this kind of know, upper and lower band. So evolution set us this band and then your near ancestors set you in this band through um epigenetics and your maternal... Yeah, a tighter band. And then, you know, what happened to mom when she was um carrying you as a fetus, you know, all those kind of factors.

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And then you're born into this environment that sets some other factors. And then you've got your own factors that you control, which are, you know, diet, activity, lifestyle, all those types of things. So once you realize that, you know, you've got these kind of guardrails, I think you can relax and sort of give yourself a bit of grace and not beat yourself up and go, well, yeah, this is how I am. So now how do I think about those things and be intelligent and realize that often you're looking at the environment.

32:04
and trying to figure out how to use your modified ape brain in an intelligent way. there's all sorts of things around that. Matt, is this a way that osteopaths would typically think or is this something specific to the likes of you and are sort of more ancestrally minded friends? I'm curious, you know. I think there's a subset that are. mean, certainly the training is on our anatomy now.

32:33
maybe not looking at how it evolved to get to this point. And there's plenty to work on in that, know, plenty to work on modern homo sapien bodies that are maladapted or they've got this mismatch, just working in that, know, so all those, those injuries that we're talking about specifically, I would say locomotion, what I'm interested in walking, running, and so more recently for prevention,

33:02
As we get older, went, you know, and that's usually pretty catastrophic. Those kinds of things, you know, with looking at just people coming into your door, there's plenty just on that rather than looking all the way back. So I think if you want to know why things work, you inevitably go that way. Ossipath's probably quite open to it because of those, the sort of four key principles. And we talked about structure and function. And so that does tend to lead you to go, well, how, does our structure come about?

33:32
m I think, yeah, they're probably very open to it in osteopathy. um In terms of the constraints of a consult where you're seeing someone for half an hour, 45 minutes, you may not get into, you know, see everyone like that. But some do. um Some people would do. And I've worked with people where their chief complaint was, um I can't get down to the bottom cupboard to get that pot out. Right? And for an older person, that sort of

34:02
you know, like, am I going to be able to live independently? Now you start to look at, well, it's pretty core skill to be able to get up off the floor. So you just work with that person on that skill and um they feel very empowered with that. And that might be all you do is working in coaching them on that. And that's a very different question. And you may not even go near the treatment table, which is perhaps where Ossipass, you know, we're doing hands-on work and we're looking at

34:30
you know, how your structure is working in a fascia and tendons and ligaments and muscles, how that is all going. And we're often seeing people come in with pain, you know, an acute situation. Um, and it's probably acute on a chronic condition. Usually, you know, this, unless it's catastrophic, like you've, um, rolled your ankle, torn some ligaments. Uh, often you're seeing these acute flare up of a chronic issue. And I think that's where.

34:59
A lot of people will come and see an osteopath because they maybe haven't found resolution other modalities. And so they'll come to us and see us for those types of, Oh, we didn't seem to come from anything. And that often can be that mismatch sort of idea. But you know, it's come from nothing. Well, maybe it's this thing that we don't really think about that. We are not loading our bodies in the same sort of ways and we don't have the variety in movement.

35:29
Sometimes you think in running particularly it's overuse, but maybe it's not overuse. It's just, you're just doing this one kind of movement a lot. And actually if you took all that metabolic activity and spread it over some more diverse movements and got tendons moving in different ways and muscles moving in different ways, you might find that some of those issues go away. Well, it's interesting because to your point, this is an issue that I've had for years actually, but it just sort of flares up every m

35:58
now and then and it flared up post the Grand to Grand, which was on the trails and on the sand. I didn't even feel it actually throughout that entire event, even though was slightly concerned about it. But when I got back to my usual sort of road running, which is where my heart is, Matt, like I Yes, yes. I feel you there, Miki. Yeah, I want to do the comrades. I want to be a Matt Stewart and do the comrades. you do? Oh, wow.

36:26
I will enable you in any way I can, Maki, so you can go. Fabulous experience. have 25,000 of your best friends instantly when you go and do that race. It's incredible. But yeah, it is a test. It is a test of the body for sure. 100%, right? And so as you're describing it, everything you're saying makes perfect sense. And also with a view of not just the activity itself and the body and the physicality, but...

36:53
It makes sense to think about those other inputs, the way that you describe it, like your diet, like stress, it's something that I want to chat to you about as well, and the effects that stress has on the tissue, like lack of sleep, or all of the pillars of evolutionary health and how they play into it, that isn't, I guess to your point, if you've got a half hour consult, probably don't have a lot of time to discuss it. But if you're having problems with this chronic issue that's not being resolved, then

37:21
It's not just the one thing you think it is. Yeah. I try and steer people to considering all those domains. Right. So I think it was Dallas Artwig and Melissa who talked about, you know, it starts with food. That's often the journey you start with. It starts with food, that name of their book. But there's other big rocks of health and you could say evolution wise are really important.

37:46
I've got an online form and some people say, Oh, you know, it's too long. He has asked about this and the other, but one of them, one of them, I think I need to tune up asleep because that's recovery, right? And if you're not recovering well, yeah, if you're not sleeping, you're not recovering. And where your musculosys, skeletal system repairs, where your brain clears out is when you're asleep and good sleep. You know, the architecture has to be there. um There was a big discovery.

38:17
about over 10 years ago, looking at the brain, why is there, we look at the anatomy and go, well, there's lymphatics everywhere. There's not in the brain. It's one of those curious things you go, well, there should be, but you move on because surely over 500 years of modern anatomy, they would have found this. It was only until the technology caught up and they look, put little portholes in these poor little mice and they looked at their sleeping brains and they found that the, after a certain number of cycles, those brain cells shrink.

38:45
and the channels appear and that's how you drain out all that metabolic activity. Right? So how much energy does your brain use? Mickey? I mean, it's, you know, what 25%, 30 % we've got all that glucose that it likes to burn. Surely there would be waste there and surely it needs to be cleared out. But it took us a little while to figure it out because the technology wasn't there. And then that connects up with our other lymphatics. So sleep's super important. And what we've done in the mismatch, um,

39:15
there was no electric light, right? So we really played around with that cycle. So that's probably, you know, sleep. um And maybe you, you brought that out to um your live environment or you might call it circadian biology. That's a big change. That is a huge change. And we can manipulate it a lot, you know, like in, in wintertime, maybe the indoor brightness of the light is brighter than what's outside and we can stay

39:44
awake longer, we can move that. So that starts to affect our sleep patterns and also affects that melatonin release, which I know you've talked about. we've to be smart around that, but that's just one component now. So we've moved on from, maybe you started with food and we started with sleep. That's a repair. So those ones I try and get to, you know, with people and you can, half an hour, that's a long time. That's a lot longer than with your GP. You might be in another and

40:12
you know, five, eight minutes, but you can talk to people who are open to that, ask about sleep and just say, look, that's where you recover. We've got to get your sleep working well. And that's often well said, Hey, we've got these great things and our environment, which, know, so pain relieving medications, if you're not sleeping and they help you sleep, take them, take them. Cause the next day will be better. Your brain won't be so tired. It won't be so sensitized. You won't crave carbs as much. actually increase.

40:42
You have carb cravings. When they cut your sleep from eight hours to four hours, the craving for carbs just go up because your brain is tired and it's saying, give me more fuel. So you start looking at these different domains so you can lead them like stepping stones. Okay, we're looking at your body. We're looking at a repair situation. How's your sleep? And then you can talk about carbohydrate cravings. And, you know, often people are like, I've got a bit of weight to lose. Okay, so I need to think about

41:11
this injury and you can use the injury to start talking about these big rocks um of evolutionary health, perhaps. So diet, sleep, stress reduction, um those types of things. Community, that kind of thing, because we are a very social animal um and that can be a big source of stress as well. So you can start to use the injury as your stepping stone into those big rocks of health. um

41:41
which is kind of a useful way to do it. You know, so this is a slight tangent, as to your point, you know, I like, but I'm curious as to how you feel the environment is for talking about things like ancestral health, talking about paleo, which we're actually not allowed to say paleo anymore. that was... yeah. Well, yeah. You know what I mean though? Like, is it us and where we were at that we were just sort of ensconced in that um space and that is still there, but...

42:10
we've slightly shifted or I've slightly shifted, I'm not sure. Cause I think there's just so much value in what you're talking about yet often the conversation, you bring up, if you talk about things from evolutionary health or ancestral health or paleo primal, it's not viewed as favorably, I suppose, as maybe it was 10 years ago. is that a thing? Yeah. I think um you often, if you look at it,

42:38
diffusion model of an idea, like marketing in particular. got early adopters. And I remember being moved to the States for a while. I remember looking at Amazon and seeing the cover of Primal Mark Sisson's book. And you just look so like male model, athlete male model. was like, that's a bit cheesy. And then I remember I bought a copy of Rob Walsh's book.

43:04
I mean, really got me in, I think for a lot of people. And the other one, I've got it here, you know, like the other thing was born to run, right? I mean, it came out around that time. So we had the endurance running thing and we had Paleo and there was CrossFit kicking off. And that was very early adopter. And I think one of the things is then the idea catches on and commercial entities go, hey, this is great. And we're to get behind this message.

43:31
and it gets a lot of traction. You start hearing it everywhere. And then it gets a little bit corrupted. Maybe you get the paleo cupcakes and the primal cupcakes and then people start getting a little bit cynical. Maybe the people who've been dealing with that and also humans like novel ideas. 100 % shiny balls. Yeah, shiny, bright, sunny object. And so we sort of trail off that. And we can get very uh particular about this one idea.

44:00
And then there's this big groundswell and it just kind of goes and the focus shifts and we'll be onto the next thing. um So there's a bit of a, there's a bit of our own evolutionary bias to the looking out for these novel things, because that could be a threat or it could be interesting to us. um And then we also get tired of the, tired of the thing. And then in a modern environment, the commercial imperative sort of moves on. see these different things. um I don't know where it is now. think.

44:30
have we gone past uh keto or is keto still in the ascendancy? But it's still all very diet based. um You know, it still starts with food. And what I'd like to see is that actually people move into those other rocks, you know? And it's one concept that Rob Wolf talks about and maybe it's who's the other guy who, um for our work week, know, Tim Ferriss.

44:58
minimal effective dose. both talk about this minimum effective dose and that Pareto principle. Well, you know, when you've got 80 % of the effect of say diet and you figured out what that looks like for you, you know, like you your plate organized and you, you know, you know what foods work with you. Great. Time to move on. You know, you can keep optimizing for that next 20%, but the gains are going to be less and less. Move on to those other domains and you might find that they are even

45:28
more dramatic. You start optimizing for sleep or stress or social connection, those type of things. So having a look at that whole, and it's often represented as a bit of a circle, these domains to look at. Nice. And then if m we think about movement as one of those domains, obviously you've got the likes of me and you and many people you might see who are athletes and

45:53
potentially our problems is that we only move in one way and we probably need to broaden the way with which we move. But then of course, I know that you see people that don't really move or they do begrudgingly. So they're not actually, they might not have an athlete mindset, which is not to say that they can't, but they just don't think about movement as part of who they are, which is how I like to see people. I like them to think they're human, they're designed to move. And I know not everyone thinks that.

46:22
How much of pain, Matt, and injury that you see is related to the fact that people just don't move? Oh, big. Really huge. Yeah, I mean, you look at sort of step count. know you and I, you I like to know how many steps. And that whole 10,000 concept came out of, it came out of the Olympics in Japan, I believe, Tokyo Olympics.

46:48
And there was a company that wanted to do a promotion and they developed these little pedometers. in Japanese, 10,000, you know, you kind of have the, it's a big number. It's a nice little number. I think it's Ichiman. And they were like, yeah, great. Here's this target. And it wasn't anything to do with looking at the human movement or anything, but they went 10,000. Okay. That's a really good number. you, later on, when they started looking at these ancestral populations,

47:18
It's actually more like 14,000. There's a range about 14 to 17,000. So when you look at the hard side and they put the dominos on them and they, um you know, follow them around, it's sort of up there. So if you look at a modern day step count, leave from the house, get in the car, drive to work, work up the steps, sit there all day, come back. There's a lot of detuning and it happens pretty quick. It's pretty astounding that we have that resilience for so long.

47:47
I would say, where there's very little movement. So look where we came from, look at what we're doing. Yeah, it can start to break down. Now, how do you get to people who don't really, that are not interested in exercise? Well, you tend to look at the injury or the complaint, the pain. um What is it that motivates them? You know, what is it they want to get back to doing? um And often just getting out of pain, that's enough for them.

48:17
And that doesn't mean the whole problem's gone away because pain's just this kind of tip of the iceberg. In a lot of cases, it's gotten to the threshold. Your brain has gone, hey, there's a threat here. I don't like this. I'm going to shut this particular movement pattern down. For example, if you've got tendinopathy or if you've got an acute swelling, it's like you get people out of that. That can be the motivator. What do you want to do? Well, you know, I've got plantar fasciitis.

48:42
And I've been invited to go to Japan. know there's lots of walking involved. Okay, right. So that's our aim. So you can get people along for the ride, getting back to what they want to do. And to be fair, you know, a lot of people don't like to come and see me to be honest. They want to get back to real life, know, real life, what they want to do. Um, some people are motivated in their workouts, like strength. I'm doing strength cause I love to run. Right. And I know that's important, but I don't love to run.

49:11
sorry, love to work out, I love to run. But you can see how it's so important to that. And so we can use that strategy. What is it that you are aiming for? Because often, I mean, lots of people walking around in pain, but they don't go and do something about it, right? It's usually the fear of loss or missing out or something like that, that they will get them in to make an appointment. Sometimes it's the prompting of a family member. And so they're kind of, yeah, because I've been told, you know.

49:40
Um, so you work on that and you try and pick it to something that really will pull them into that process. That's the way through. And yeah, I think a lot, maybe 70, 80 % of that might be, um, not doing enough physical activity. Yeah. Those two big things are, you know, on the diet piece and the physical activity. And then you can see all those mismatch issues coming about high blood pressure, type two diabetes, um, frailty, sarcopenia.

50:09
And then as you get older, you know, that risk of falling, um, been looking at that literature and the dangerous one is a lateral fall. There's things you can do about that. Um, you know, they're not too difficult. Um, and so you get people in her book grudging, but they do want to maybe avoid some things or they want to go and do some things like, I want to go walk the Camino. I want to go on a trip overseas. There's big motivating things they want to do with their life. Yeah. Nice one. Do you want to walk the Camino?

50:39
Ah, you know what? I, um, when I was doing some research over the break, I ended up on these Camino forums cause a lot about plantar fasciitis. And I was doing some research on plantar fasciitis and I started answering people's emails or their posts. And, um, uh, this lady was so grateful. um the suggestions I see, you she's from Australia and gave us some ideas and she, she gave me her, uh, you know, two pages of the best tips of the Camino. So.

51:08
I've kind of got the best information on it. I like the idea. Yeah, it's fitting it into the schedule, but it looks pretty cool. It does look pretty cool. I read a novel about it actually, but just a week long Camino. So it wasn't even like the full like, however many months it takes to actually walk the thing. thought, man, this sounds awesome. And sometimes you get, so Phil Beach, you've met him, he physically looks fantastic. em

51:38
I won't date him, you know, he's maybe 60s, 70s, I don't know, but very healthy. He does this in his daily life. He's doing the erectus asa, he's doing the architectural postures and he does these long walks. I remember we're going to this fashion congress in Amsterdam and I was talking to him, was saying, hey, you going? said, yeah, I'm leaving next week. like, but Phil, it's like a month or six weeks away. What are you doing? oh

52:05
I'm going to Italy and I'm going to walk there. I'm going to walk to Amsterdam." I was like, what? So going to catch trains and he was going to walk through France and he was going to end up pretty close to Amsterdam. And then he was attending this conference. He's like, well, there's a guy who embodies what we're talking about. And he looks fit and he looks great. That is life goals. Walk to a conference. like you couldn't put two of my most favorite things together.

52:35
the way that Phil just did, like that is just amazing. and so you take, you know, the Anna one and it's pretty compelling these stories. mean, is great, but you see someone who's doing um all these activities and they're looking great and functioning well, and you go, hey, that's something to pay attention to. Yeah, nice one. So Matt, um I've got a question, stress, because obviously everything that we've talked about, pain, lack of sleep, diet,

53:03
exercise, they all bring in an element of stress or too much stress, right? So I'm curious to know how in your work, does stress, which everyone says is stress, how does that affect the tissue? And then also what impact does that have on our sort of levels of pain? Cause I don't know that many people put those two together actually. Yeah. think a lot of people would

53:29
talk about posture, they've got bad posture, but what you can see is that a lot of that posture is stress related. um There's a famous photo of someone firing a gun next to an army recruits head and it's slow motion, sorry, very high speed photography. You can see this person's head has just gone straight forward and it's called the startle reflex. Well, stress is a

53:57
is the startle reflex over a long period of time and maybe not quite as dramatic. When you release those stress chemicals, cortisol, adrenaline, what are they there to do? They're meant to prime you to run, to get out of there. So you could argue that it's flight and freeze. So some people freeze. Other people would take off. But what you tend to see is because we can't run away because we're sat at our desk.

54:27
And we got to do the report for the boss who said it's got to be done by five o'clock. Um, but you get the bodily response. What that looks like is your head goes forward shot, you know, the scalenes, these breathing muscles, it's kind of, it's, it's hard wide in shoulders come up and forward. We round forward cause we, you know, this is impulse to protect these organs that as this weird bipedal animal, we stood up and we put it, you know, vulnerable.

54:56
in front of us. we sort of instinctively these deep flexes in the body and we tend to default to flexion. um We'll flex through their scalene muscles, shorten, lift our shoulders, head comes forward. We stop breathing more or less, you know, from the diaphragm. We're often sitting down. um And so we've got joints, you know, in no man's land, no woman's land. They're not

55:25
all kind of squeezed up and they're not straightened. that we really, that's one thing about those archetypal postures. They take joint systems all the way through to end range and give them a good stretch and get fluid through cartilage and all that kind of thing. So we're doing none of that. stress is priming you to run. So you're mobilizing energy, right? You're mobilizing glucose. You're getting triglycerides floating around. mean, and you're doing that for a long period of time. ah So what do people notice? I've got sore shoulders.

55:54
I've got a sore neck because it's stuck out here, your chin's over here. You're not breathing because you've got, they call it right as apnea. You're concentrating on the spreadsheet, your face is heading towards the screen. All those things are in its bad posture. Yeah, it's bad posture, but it's stress. In a lot of cases, you could pin a lot of that straight down to a stress response. Maybe ergonomics, this is part of that. You can have, know, all set up. So yeah, stress, I think, comes as

56:24
bad posture. um And often you can't really look at the posture unless you fix the stress. Yeah. And also, like if I think about someone who might have an acute injury, like how much does stress in their life play into their propensity to be injured? Let's say you've got someone who does go to the gym or they do do whatever, but they also live, like they've got that element of sort of chronic stress. Like how does it affect the tissues in a way that may make them more

56:54
Well, there's the tissue component, but there's also the neural control component, right? Our brains get tired. And then when they get tired, the tissues tired and the brains tiring out, those motor neurons are getting tired. I mean, this is the basis of cramp. You you get to the back end of a race and it doesn't need to be a marathon, but I felt it in a marathon. that cramp, I mean, it's nothing. And then all of sudden you feel like you've been shot in the back of the leg.

57:24
That's fatigue happening. That's your nervous system fatiguing and not knowing what it's supposed to be doing. You know, the hamstring is like, Hey, you need to lengthen, but you need to contract and the motor neuron gets confused. And then you get this crap. It doesn't feel great. There's a really acute example. Brain is getting tired. Another way is that when you're putting yourself under load and a workout, that's great. When your diaphragm gets ah fatigued.

57:54
it will divert blood away from the lower limbs to the diaphragm. And so now your lower limbs aren't getting the same sort of blood supply. uh Maybe the nerves aren't getting the sort of nerve blood supply they need to do their job properly. And you're playing something or playing a sport or you're running, doing something with high force gets confused about what it's doing. You know, the coordination, rolled ankle, particularly in like basketball, netball.

58:24
High demands for these um type two fibers, which is activating more of your brain. Brain's getting tired. It doesn't coordinate properly. All of a sudden you've torn your gastroc, your medial gastroc, because of the way that the tissue winds. The medial gastroc uh is going to receive that force first rather than lateral or the soleus. um So you see that a lot in tennis and you see that a lot

58:52
run is it's like medial gastroctest. So you've gotten tired. That's a stressor. Uh, if you go into it, tired, cause you didn't sleep and you're, am just going to get the work at work out and I'm just going to go for that run. There's just increasing your risk of these injuries. Um, and that's one way that that stress can affect you. I long-term, um, you know, you're mobilizing all that glucose, you know, starting to get, you know,

59:21
it's sticky, glucose is sticky, starts sticking onto tendons. And there's a particular issue for type 2 diabetics is their tendons start getting stiff. Now that's an opposite problem for you and I. We often have tendons that may be too compliant. uh But for diabetics, some of this is that we're stressed, we're mobilizing, and our tendons get sticky. Obviously, they get stiff because the glucose sticks to them.

59:51
and changes the structure and now they don't respond in the same way. That's a very long timeframe, right? You know, that's 10, 15, whatever years. But that's another way that if you have this sort of metabolic stress, it can start to affect the tissues as well. But in the short term, yeah, the stress, the effects on the nervous system and the coordination is where I see that kind of, I mean, you often hear the story, right?

01:00:20
It was the last ski run. Well, of course it was the last cause then you got injured, but it was the end of the day. Usually they're starting to get tired, maybe haven't eaten. They're like, Oh yeah, just, I'm out here. It's like four o'clock and they one more and they go over and knee injury, you know, something they weren't quite coordinated. Um, you know, of course there's bad luck. had a mobile and it's, you know, but,

01:00:48
Yeah, those types of things can be where you see stress affecting the tissues in a sort of direct and indirect way. Matt, we've almost had an hour, which is crazy to me, which is actually like this is people really have just gotten uh an insight into if Mickey and Matt were going to sit down and have a coffee, which we have not done in quite some time. I know we haven't. Yeah. Which we will do. But this is literally like just jumping into a conversation that we would we would otherwise have. But I feel like

01:01:17
what you've been able to do is just give people a bit of a bigger picture because a lot of us struggle with injuries that are acute or chronic pain and are unsure of sort of next steps and, and or other things to focus on than just the injury itself or just that, you you injure your calf. So you go and see someone and they work just on the calf and they're not actually looking upstream at all of these other factors. Yeah.

01:01:45
compartmentalization maybe, you know, yeah, of course you've got injury to this structure and you want to get that well, but why, why did that spot go? You know, cause often with the body in this, with fascia um is wonderful and interesting, but there's some very fantastical claims made about it. But um the fascia protects the whole unit. So where the breakdown is might not be where the

01:02:14
the true problem is. um There's an old story in osteopathy. The founder was kind of telling the student off and said, look, when I stand on the tail of the cat, where does the sound come out? It comes out of the mouth, right? actually have like, shit, what is the answer to this question? Yeah. So you stand on the tail of the cat. The problem is not the cat screaming. It's your foot on the tail.

01:02:42
Oh, good. You've got find where the foot of the tail is, right? So the calf blue, is there something else you need to be aware of? It could be just the calf, but you've got to look all the way around the body. that's where I think what Ossipass did quite well, is looking at that. then you start going, well, you know, we're this human in this environment. And that's how you get to this evolutionary stuff that we've been talking about.

01:03:07
Yeah, it's tricky because people are like, well, who should I go and see? Should I see a physio? In New Zealand, you've got physios, chiropractors, osteopaths working in the same space. And we all do different stuff. And I would just say, I can't speak to what chiropractors do. I work with some chiropractors. We send people back and forth, work with some physios. It's getting that match uh between that practitioner. If you know them and you trust them, then that's person for you. uh

01:03:34
But sometimes I think the physios, they're looking at that acute injury and they do that really well. Like I don't have a lot of moon boots here and I don't have a radiology provider running store. So, you know, you've done something and it looks pretty bad. Physio is going to be really great to take a look at that acute kind of style of thing. So, but if you're looking for that rounded, you know, let's have a look at your whole body. Let's see where things might be weak and what might be cause they might be in different places because of that tense integrity in the facial system then.

01:04:02
you know, come see an osteopath. Yeah, nice one, Matt. And on that note, are you currently seeing clients? I will be seeing clients after this call, Nicky. Yes, I am. I have a little bit of a break next week. And then as a consequence, lots of messages, hey, I don't see any appointments available. But yes, I do. I do see clients. I see a few running coaches and they're in the ultra space. I see a lot of runners.

01:04:33
But also what I'm seeing now is people who, you know, maybe around my age, they're to bring the same, Hey, can I bring my, my mother and my father in? Um, because they're, you know, concerned about their mobility. And so the last little bit, I've sort of been looking at this, um, evolutionary biology from, okay, well, so how do we prevent these falls? What do we need to do there? Because we've got an aging population and everyone wants to see their family, you know, live long and stick around and live a good life. So

01:05:02
started seeing those kind of patients turn up. I do see a lot of runners running sports, um rugby, uh netballers who uh continue to play well into their 40s and 50s, which is a great thing. But the tendons, they do suffer. And we've got to do a lot to... We can't just coast on them anymore, so to speak. We've got to work at getting them... um

01:05:31
Yeah, in the right shape to handle those forces. Nice one, Matt. And I'm definitely going to jump off this call and jump onto your booking sheet so you can explain more about that protocol that you told me about early on. Yeah, it's really fascinating. It sounds good. stuff. Now, my final question to you is if someone were to ask you, know, like, Matt, I can't actually come and see you, but I'm super, because I live in another country or something else. But actually, I just want to understand more about this evolutionary sort of

01:05:59
response to our environment. Like, do you have a couple of key places that you send people to get more of an understanding on the mismatch? I mean, unfortunately, the Ancestral Health Society is now defunct. yeah, we mentioned a couple of resources. I think that it starts with food was a good one. There's a few other, I'm just blanking on who would be the best, most succinct, looking at all those big rocks. um

01:06:25
I think Maxisson still does an excellent job. Yeah, I think so. I've got em one of his books, what was it called? Primal Endurance, I think that has an element of that. yeah, Maxisson, and in fact, he's got a really good video on these archetypal postures. So if people want to know more about that, if there was one thing I could say, like get on the floor, you know, because that tunes up your body quite nicely. And so your um

01:06:54
have look at that Marxist and I think he calls it archetypal resting postures and then his other resources were a really good place to go. The other thing is that just in the last sort of six months, I have been doing more tele-consults around the country because there isn't an osteopath or there are no, you know, there's not a musculoskeletal physician or they can't see the orthopedic surgeon. And that's going to be interesting.

01:07:24
Because during the COVID lockdowns, were, you know, stay out of your clinics and stay at home. And I'd not really thought about the online space, but you know, I'm available to that. But Mark Sisson, I don't know what's Rob Wolf up to these days. I think he's doing more of the element stuff, right? He is. Yet his books absolutely stand the test of time, don't they? I think em that's what got me into it, maybe got you interested in it. I think they're good resources as well.

01:07:53
Yeah, nice one, Matt. So for people who are interested in working with you, how do they find you? Unityosteopathy.co.nz. um That's my website. I think I have got an Instagram. You're a little bit on social. It's a little bit sporadic. bit on social. There's so many socials in there now, so many platforms. You'll find me on Instagram, think Twitter not so much. ah

01:08:22
Yeah, Instagram is probably a good place. LinkedIn, do a little bit on LinkedIn as well, just because some longer form stuff that doesn't fit to a post. know, it's people in office situations, you know, feeling that stress and postural issues. So you'll find some content around there too. Nice one, Matt. Well, I will put links to how to find you in the show notes. And also I'll hunt down that archetype postural Marxist in YouTube.

01:08:50
if I can find it, but all of the other links to things as well. Matt, and I think I'm need to ask you to come back and actually have a specific talk on, I think we need to chat more about runners and injuries and osteopathy, because I think that would be super great for like half of my audience actually, which is actually still quite a huge number of people. So that'd be awesome. Well, know, runners like talking about running. 100%, I know, that's always why I wanna do it. I'd love to, yeah, I'd love to. Yeah, I'm sort of, I have to read ahead myself.

01:09:19
So, you know, it's called eating your own dog food. I'm doing, using these protocols because I have to use them on myself. Nice one. And that's a sort of like try and test it. Matt, thank you. Really appreciate your time. Thanks. See you, Mickey.

01:09:47
Alrighty, hopefully you really enjoyed that. um I found it so insightful and you better believe that I went and ordered one of those machines that Matt was talking about. Super stoked to learn how to use it and hopefully get on top of my particular running issue. But Matt is so available and so knowledgeable, I highly recommend his services. So absolutely check out links to unityosteopathy.co.nz in the show notes.

01:10:15
to book an appointment with Matt or anyone of his team. All right guys, next week on the podcast I speak to my good friend Molly Hamill about energy healing, fascinating conversation, you're really gonna love it. Until then though, you can catch me over on Instagram @mikkiwilliden which is where you can also find me on threads and X, over on Facebook at mikkiwillidennutrition, or head to my website mikkiwilliden.com. All right guys, you have the best week, see you later.