00:03
Welcome, hi, I'm Mikki and this is Mikkipedia, where I sit down and chat to doctors, professors, athletes, practitioners, and experts in their fields related to health, nutrition, fitness, and wellbeing, and I'm delighted that you're here.

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Hey everyone, it's Mikki here. You're listening to Mikkipedia and guess what? It is our 200th episode. Can't even believe it. I am so stoked to continue to put out information from some of the most awesome people who are out there in the space of health, wellness, nutrition, exercise, activity, all the things. And as a sort of mark of this milestone,

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This week on Micopedia we have Professor Grant Schofield. Those of you who have been listening from Day Dot will or maybe remember that Grant was actually my very first guest on the show. And I am just so stoked to have him here for his fourth time talking about his most recent project, a new book looking at the future of medicine. As always with Grant, this is an informative and informal chat.

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about health, nutrition, lifestyle and wellness with a ton of practical tips that you, the listener, can take away. And Grant is such a good friend and such a brainiac that this is a very wide reaching conversation and I think you're really going to enjoy it. I always get great feedback when I have Grant on the show. For those of you unfamiliar with Grant,

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He is the Professor of Public Health at Auckland University of Technology, Director of the University's Human Potential Centre, former Chief Scientific Advisor to the Ministry of Education in New Zealand, he's also the co-author of four best-selling books, and Chief Science Officer for Precure. Can you even believe it? I mean, how does one person do so many things? Professor Grant's career has focused on preventing the diseases of modern times.

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and seeing what it takes to help people live a long, healthy and happy life. He lives and breathes the motto, be the best you can be, and sees this as a game changer for the health system, capable of transforming the current sickness model to one which we aspire to be well. He is redefining public health as the science of human potential and the study of what it takes to have a great life. So Grant is well known for being outspoken.

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and thinking outside the box, challenging conventional wisdom in nutrition and weight loss as well as physical activity and exercise. He brings his fluency across several scientific disciplines from human physiology to psychology to peak performance, where in his role at Precure and of course in the university he delivers world-class training in lifestyle medicine. I have a number of

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places where you can find Grant in the show notes, including the What the Fat Books and his blog, the Human Potential Centre at AUT University and of course Precure. Before we crack into this conversation, one which I am so stoked I have the ability to bring to you, this is just a reminder, the best way to support the podcast is to hit the subscribe button on your favourite podcast listening platform. That increases the visibility

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amongst the literally thousands of other podcasts there are. So more people get the opportunity to learn from guests that I have on the show like Professor Grant Schofield. Alright team, enjoy this conversation.

03:59
talk to you about your book today. I've hit record just so you know. Did you know you were the very first guest on Micopedia? I do. I'm super stoked about that, especially since it's my favourite podcast name. I get so joyous. Micopedia, it's the best name for a podcast in the history of podcasts. I know, right? It does sort of afford me a number of acceptances. People are like, I love the name. I'm so coming on. So you're the first guest.

04:27
This is your fourth time on the show and you're going to be my 200th episode. How's that? Oh my god, I'm stoked about that. It's 200, is that right? That's awesome. Way to go you. I know. So good, eh? And generally when we catch up, we have a ton of things to talk about with very little prep required on either end just because you're a good talker and I can keep up basically. It's so much fun, isn't it? Like so much to think about. I've been...

04:55
doing this Choose Your Hard Book. So I've probably got plenty of, I've been so deep down rabbit holes. It's really cool. I know. And this is one of the reasons why I want to chat. Firstly though, just going to go to my little notes, Grant. We're going to talk all about your book, but I want to say congrats on that conference. That was awesome. That pre-future future of medicine. Future of medicine. So, you know, cause I reckon like it's all going to be well, we get podcasts from the US and we've got your Peter T's and your.

05:25
Hubermans and blah, blah, blah. But like we just as good in Australia and New Zealand. We've got awesome scientists and medical people and practitioners. We've got awesome podcasters like you and Paul Taylor, one piece from across the ditch in New here. Like this like totally awesome communicators of the science and practice. We've got good practice. It's like we need to, and if we wait for medicine to change itself into something decent that half resembles anything sensible, well, I don't even reckon it'll take 40 years that it'll never happen.

05:54
So we've just got to get people going. Yeah, I agree. And do you think actually that part of what you were just talking about, like, you know, we always look sort of outside to get like the insights from, you know, really well known people, is that typical New Zealand thing that if you've got an accent or you're from somewhere else, it's got to be better than what we can do here. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, when I lived in Australia, I noticed they were slightly better than us. Like, you know, they had the Australian golf open. Yeah.

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And they'd be going, you know, so and so from Australia is awesome. Oh, amazing. Yeah. Amazing. Which is great. You'd have the New Zealand golf. I'm gonna go, well, we'll go so and so on, so and so on, so and so from, you know, all these other places, not even met your own guys. It's like, come on, come on dudes. Let's go. We're actually got some awesome people here. Totally. But, but totally in this field, our field, that's totally the case. Yeah. And look, let's be fair. You're an absolute thought leader and have been probably your whole career. But of course.

06:54
I've only known you since, you know, 2007 or whenever we met. And you've just been so influential in this field and it just continues Grant. Like you're not satisfied with starting a training academy, you know, the health coaching, the advanced nutrition certificates, the what the fat series of books, co-authoring those, you're now sort of moved a lot broader, I feel, in in your space, which must feel pretty exciting. I think

07:24
Most of it's actually due to a low concentration span and being easily bored, which in another world would be diagnosed as adult onset ADHD. Yes. So like, I honestly think that is a thing. And if I was pumped into a job that I couldn't move my attention around and outsource stuff that I'm hopeless at, like marking or anything with detail, then I couldn't be quite a useless human being.

07:53
And so I'm less useless because of the place I work. It's really interesting because I've been really down on the uni. And I wrote a big essay about that recently, you know, falling in love with the uni and yeah, that shouldn't have been. But then like a few things happened to me. I was like, oh, I'm quitting this place. It's awful. You know, like there's, um, can't stand the bureaucracy, all this sort of stuff. And then straight away that night I went to Costco and

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I said, I was just looking at a guy walk past me pulling a trolley same age as me. I was like, oh, shit. Yeah. It's a bit awkward. But then also went to Paul Taylor's talk at that conference. I thought it was outstanding. Good communicator. Hell yeah. And the stuff on Stoicism and Zone 1, Zone 2. And he was like, be the person you want to be. And then I thought that was good. But then I went out for dinner that Sunday with the chair of our board at Precure. And he was like, oh, I really like that talk by...

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And this guy, Bennett's like an absolute friggin' star, you know, like he's an older business guy, you know, really done well in his own businesses and everything. And he's like, oh, I'm really stuck in my mind that, you know, be the person you want to be and everything will come right. And I was like, think about that. Then my youngest son, Danny, who's 13, went at hockey and he was completely losing his shit like throwing his stick, you know, swearing and carrying on. He eventually got sent off. And I'm just going, shit.

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He can't do that. Hang on. We need a bit of a reset here in the Schofield family, including me. And so I promise you the story is going somewhere. So then I went back and I watched the Matrix, 1999 movie, The Matrix. Do you remember that? Yes. And in that there's a scene where Neo, who's Keanu Reeves, goes to meet the Oracle. And he goes in and there's a little boy sitting there, just up as a Buddhist monk, and he's bending a spoon with his mind.

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And he says, you know, the trick to bending the spoon, Neo, and he's like, no, he goes, the trick to bending the spoon is that there is no spoon. And then it all clicked for me. At once I was like, oh my God, I've been mentoring people for my whole life that you just need to ignore the bureaucracy, bend reality to yourself, not yourself to reality. And so I went into my office the next day at the uni, I wrote on the wall, there is no spoon. And then under that I wrote.

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be the professor you want to be in the university that you think you'd like to be in. Nice, Grant. And it's like a massive turning point for me from being down in the doldrums about how shit COVID was and a government sucks and universities are not what they used to be and all that. So I'm back on a full firing state of actually not so Ben reality to suit us rather than the other way around.

10:43
That's awesome. We talk, I'm sure that we've had discussions around either, or certainly in person, but on the podcast as well, about just the importance of mindset, right? Like that literally changes everything around you or the perception. It doesn't, but it does. No, it doesn't. It actually does actually change the world around you by you willing it to be so rather than the other way around. Yes. Because the other way, and I'm...

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I'm not demeaning the guy at Costco, he might be having a great life, but I can't imagine he's got quite as much agency as I have. Yeah, interesting. Yeah, because you know my dad's a cleaner, and he's like 70, so he cleans full time and also gets pension, which is actually brilliant. And he is perfectly happy and he's got as much agency as he would ever want because he goes to

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he comes home and then his time is his own, right? So maybe the guy at Costco is a bit the same. Yeah, yeah, maybe I'm just jumping to conclusions. Yeah, why was me? Yeah, hey, that's a really good point you bring up about, be the person you wanna be. Have you read Richard Wiseman's As If Principle? No, I haven't heard of that, tell me about that. Yeah, so it's basically a book, I mean, as the name,

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suggests. You act as if you're the person that you want to be. So that's sort of what it is. And then the whole book itself is looking at research around this concept and where it's successful and how you can use it in terms of your diet, exercise, and just the big sort of pillars in life. And I'm pretty sure it was in this book, they discuss this study that this woman conducted where she took a bunch of 80 year olds and she took them back.

12:38
Oh yeah, yeah, I know that's awesome. Yes, yes. And so they lived for a week with, with the, basically back in when they were like, I don't know, 30 or something, and they had everything like the TV shows, probably wasn't any TV, you know, pictures and everything changed. Like the biological markers changed because they, they just thought themselves younger, essentially, which I thought was amazing.

13:04
It's awesome. I did try that this week with running, to be honest, Mickey. I was like, you're a runner again. You're a runner. And so I ran eight days in a row and then I got an Achilles injury. Well, you're a runner. That's exactly what happens to a runner. That's awesome, Grant, because this time last year, we were running together in Kona. Oh, yeah, we were. That was awesome. Missing that. That was amazing. We're just going to have to wait till next year, obviously, for that. Yeah. So, Grant,

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First of all, your talk at the Precure Conference, am I right in thinking that it will be released to the public sooner or later? I'm trying to... So the Precure Talks are all coming out, including your one, in due course. So the very first one is we released with Dr. Matt Phillips. Amazing. So that's out on the Future of Medicine site for free. So if I can just go and look at that. But should we talk about that one for a start? Yeah, let's.

14:03
Friggin' hell, that was, so, yeah, speaking of superstars, neurologist Dr. Matt Phillips, I don't know if people have heard of him, but. Or he was on your show, and then, because he was on your show, he came on my show. Oh, you've had him, yeah. So, people, micropedia listeners will know all about him. Yes. I mean, what a superstar of a guy. He's on his sort of third clinical trial, that one with Alzheimer's, that he managed to push things back, first time ever. Yeah, amazing. The one with...

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Parkinson's, we've managed to push things back first time ever. Yes. And now this first trial with this nasty disease that I didn't know much about, but this glioblastoma multiform aggressive brain cancer. Wow. But these protocols are pretty, how would you say, like the challenging protocols. I guess the conditions themselves demand it, right? Yeah, you've got like fatal brain cancer months to live. Yeah. And now you're asked to do a five-day fast every month.

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not outside of that time of one metal day keto. Yep. But then a regression and remission in some cases of the otherwise untreatable brain cancer, I suppose. Yeah. I mean, I would hope that I would be motivated enough to do that if I was in that situation. I've been struggling with this whole thing though and everything and I'm struggling with this book I'm writing at the moment. And you'll have thoughts on this, right? About...

15:28
minimum effective dose advice versus optimal advice. And I'd be really interested to see what you think about this, because I reckon there's a few things going on here that we could consider. First of all, there's this idea that people have different personalities. So some people are low need for cognition, and some people will be described themselves as satisficers versus other people are maximizers. They're just people who want to know all the information.

15:58
And you think about something like the physical activity guidelines. I mean, the bar's so low you can step over it with gumboots on. Yeah, 30 minutes is something a day, gardening counts. You know, you must be vacuuming the house, making it counts. Yeah. For us, we would suppose if we went and did that, just that we would go backwards. We would devolve our condition. Yet half the population doesn't achieve that. So maybe that's the best place to start. On the other hand,

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the optimal advice or your strength training, zone two this and functional movement that, it's quite demanding and maybe aspirational for most people. But on the other hand, and it could be confusing, there's evidence from marketing, the more choice you give people, the worse it is. Just do this one thing and they're right. But if you got sick with cancer, you don't want to just go, oh, well, there's a bunch of different chemo's we could give you, it's sort of all do it, but just see what it is left on the day.

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You're going to go, no, shit, I want the best possible advice here. Yeah. What do you make of all that? Well, I think you raise a couple of good points. The first one is that the minimum effective dose, right? So let's say physical activity is such a good example, because I often think about this, is that the guidelines, the bar is so low that...

17:18
I wonder whether people don't even bother because of that. You know, like, it's like, well, if that's all it takes, well, how important is it really? And I'm sort of almost there, you know? Okay. Good point. Yeah. This is what I'm thinking. Um, and then, uh, and then as you were talking, I was just also thinking about something else, which Cam talks about a little bit around people's motivations to achieve those optimal, you know, optimal health or

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feel your best self or be a better version of yourself and that kind of thing. Despite the fact, this is a little bit of a tangent actually, but despite the fact that they could feel a whole lot better. And in this particular moment, they're feeling terrible. The energy is low. They're feeling sluggish, cognitively they've got brain fog. That's actually a comfortable place for them to be. And we assume that people always want to feel better, but actually people just want to feel comfortable. Yeah. Sort of anti-hormetic advice, right? Yes.

18:14
And so people just, you know, people like, so when it comes to, you know, knowing or understanding risk, that's just sort of part of people's motivation to get better or be better. But it's actually how big is how strong is the pull of feeling comfortable and being in the familiar? Like, I think that's interesting. Yeah, and it's sort of a slippery slope, right? Because the less we even know this from ourselves, you know, you probably had it when you had your fracture. Yes.

18:44
As you get less fit and less, you're doing less stuff, it becomes even easier to do less stuff. Yes, and you almost feel proud. It's like, oh, sweet, look at what I'm getting away with. Yeah, and then eventually when you have to get back to what you were normally doing, it actually seems sort of a bit daunting and insurmountable. Yeah, that is so true. And that's us. Yeah, I know. I know, and actually Grant, you're a good person to ask about this because we're very similar. And I've just been reflecting on

19:13
the six months I had this year where I was unable to run. And it was a first in a while that had been that long. Like I'm talking years. And I thought I had reached this place where I was, as you were just talking, you know, fairly happy with where I was at, doing my strength training three times a week, walking, that kind of thing. But then I started running again and was able to run. And I just realized I was a version of myself for the first six months. And now I'm truly back to feeling

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awesome, you know, because I'm able to run. And you, I feel like you've been in a similar position across your years, you know, you've had periods of time where you haven't run. Yet, of course, you've gone on and done other things. But do you feel your best when you're at your fitness? Like, Oh, 100%. Yeah. I mean, there's just no doubt about that. Yeah. That fitness is medicine in the best possible kind of way. I just, you know, feel like I want to aspire to be the best.

20:10
I can, especially as I age. But I don't know, is that just prioritizing that above? Am I missing out on other important things? Or am I just stupid about it? Well, I think the evidence is strong for fitness. I think I presented some of those data from that JAMA study with 158,000 people that followed with cardiorespiratory fitness until death. Yes.

20:36
Gosh, the highest 10% of fitness, that sort of fitness category that you and I would probably fall into. I mean, there's five times lower chance of dying of anything. I think when you compare it with other serious medical conditions like diabetes and smoking, 1.4 times. End stage renal disease, 2.4 times. Like bloody hell. There's massive, massive benefits of fitness as a medicine in society. So I mean, I suppose dying, you won't know.

21:05
Yeah, it's true. But the, yeah, everything else, I can't imagine. I'm trying to do this thing at the moment because I'm writing this book. I've tried to do that and I've got a bit of, I'm away on a writing train. I'm trying to do this algorithm type base thing so I get everything in a good life. So it's like 24 hours in the day and I've made up this thing called 8 7 6 3. So eight hours sleep.

21:33
seven hours focus work, which is virtually as much as I can handle. Six hours is just random stuff like cooking, chilling, children. There's no commuting here, but just doing whatever I feel like. There's still three hours left to do health and exercise. So I get up in the morning, take the dog for an hour and a half walk. And then when I knock off tonight, I'll probably go on the bike for an hour and I'll have the sauna going after that and I'll go on that. And it's like three hours worth of stuff. It just seems

22:03
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's sort of, it's, so with your algorithm then, is that something which you're sort of putting in as a, I mean, I guess people forget how much time they've got in the day, right? Well, I was astonished. Even after 25 years of studying this, when I just tried to think about that for myself, I still had six hours left to do whatever I wanted. And I still had three hours to do health and other stuff. Yeah. And, and okay, well, it's only seven hours

22:33
But even if I did 10, I'd still have three and three or four and one or two or something. You know, like, it just seems to me that the major barrier is perceived rather than real. And then with that then Grant, because I know that people will push back at this and go, yeah, but your kids are growing up or getting there. Maybe you've got less of that hands on time that they might have with their toddlers. Would you change the algorithm to? You might need to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it's particularly bad if you're a solo parent.

23:01
Yes. That really sucks for that. But if there's two of you and dealing even with young kids, and we've all been there, you've still got 12 hours between you. Yeah. Yeah. So, I don't know. And other people have a bit more commuting, they have to work into that six hours, then they might have to work more than seven hours, they're less fortunate than me, and they have to do nine hours or whatever. But there'll be an algorithm for you that might help. Yeah. Yeah. What's your algorithm? What's your algorithm, do you reckon?

23:31
So normally nine till about five would be in bed. So what's that? Eight hours, not necessarily eight hours sleep, but my sleep is definitely, I probably average seven to seven and a half most nights, which is pretty good. Eight hours opportunity, so it's quite. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Work.

23:49
Well, it really depends, you know, like I think about seven hours and they go, do I do seven hours work? Like sometimes it feels like I get on at seven on working and then I finish at 8pm, you know, so it's like a long day, but I'm not working the entire day. So I think because of the work I do, it's a real blend of that sort of seven and six, probably together. Yeah. Um, I wouldn't be too different from you. And do you know what? I think it's because I would, I would, I prioritize training above.

24:16
most other things. That's why I get up at 4.30 or 5 a.m. because I know that I've got clients at 7 or 8 and I definitely want to do that swim and that run or that strength and that whatever. So I'm going to fit it in. So I'm probably not too concerned. You have got quite a busy job to be fair. Also the sort of legendary support that you give your clients is fairly time consuming, right? It is. It is. And it's funny actually because I love it. Like it doesn't... And I guess it's...

24:44
It doesn't feel like work, I suppose. And maybe that's where I think I'm kind of like, is that, you know, I feel like I'm being sneaky on Facebook where I should be working, but actually I'm on Facebook doing my job. You know, it's a funny thing, isn't it? Like- Yeah, you don't want to think you're doing your job too much because then it might seem like work. Yes, yeah, totally, totally. Yeah. And I don't want it to seem like I never work, but sometimes I'm like, actually this is work. That's right. You forget. But I think I'd be very similar to you, Grant.

25:14
Speaking of your book, do you want to tell us a little bit about it, the premise? Let's go into some of the sort of major pillars. Oh yeah, there's really one I want to talk about you because I think you're the only one who'll get it. Yeah, okay. So, so I had these, first of all, I've just been thinking about the mismatches in physiology and psychology and the world and the physical ones are pretty obvious. So we don't have to cover those too much. Like the movement mismatch, why we sit around far too much. The food mismatch, my God, you know, with ultra processed food that

25:43
people chuck into their chompers and away they go. The light mismatch that we get up with sitting, we don't have anything that resembles camping. So those sort of obvious ones, the temperature mismatch that we're very comfortable and even temperature and then we've ended up mouth breathing as well, I suppose, as a physical one. So those are all big interesting things, but the social ones are way more interesting.

26:14
social psychologists that talk about the social mismatches that were going. And their first one, so they first of all, they talk about weird environments, right? So their current environment is weird. And so weird stands for Western, educated, industrialized, rich, democratic, which all sounds good. But actually doesn't resemble anything like how humans have lived and that sort of stuff. But they go on down to make another, the rest of that is called strangely weird.

26:41
Which is, I just love, hang on, I'm just going to find the actual full acronym. The strangely weird thing is, so funny, so strangely, first of all, we've got S, so there's social media, which is a weird thing, right, for a start. People have, the most social media have the least actual friends and are the loneliest, so that's just a weird thing, the sort of social connection you get through. I defriended someone the other day because I walked past them in the hallway at the uni and they didn't say hi, and I was like, we can't say hi in reality, what the hell.

27:10
So social media, that's the first one. T, engage in temporary relationships. So temporary relationships in humanity have never been a thing. So that's a really interesting thing. R, relocate with relatives of these. There's never been a thing in human history that we could just move from Seattle to San Francisco or New York or Invercargill to Auckland or something. It's just not a thing. Have autonomy and make choice.

27:39
This is just a fascinating thing that in countries where there's arranged relationships, not love made ones, they're more robust, they last longer and people are happier. Interesting. It's like, I'm not saying we should all rush off and do that. Yeah, yeah. I'm not really for it myself, but it's just an interesting idea. Yeah. Okay, here's a new word for you. Nulliparous. So that means that- I know that. What is that? Isn't that something to do with pregnancy?

28:07
Yeah, so you can go your whole life for the pre-dentist. Yes. That could be you. So I'm not saying. In fact, it is. But you've ended up with a family anyway. But the fact that that is even a thing was like, historically, it's just not possible. Yeah. Experience social group segmentation. So you can be in quite specialized bits of society is a really interesting thing. Being tested in an educational setting, especially universities, they have no actual relationship to the real world. But that's where you're.

28:37
That's where you're judged on or just sort of spelling mistake. So unusual for you, Grant. Have lots of options. Like you can be whatever you want to be, all that sort of stuff. You know, you didn't have that option in small societies. And this last one's a classic. Young adults, you'll like this from, I know, your social situation at home. You have such a thing as young adults now.

29:01
Yes, in Utah, yes. So adults that are young people that live at home still with their parents. And like, there was no such thing historically. Like they were, you know, behaving like adults. So my kids tell me they're staying for at least another 10 years. Does it fill you with a little bit of like, oh, my God, fear or joy? Well, Sam's not going to like me saying this, but.

29:30
There's a few things, he said, oh, we're going to charge you rent. Like he's got a full-time job, he earns a decent salary. Yeah. So it's going to be 200 bucks a week. You know, lives in Takapuna and, you know, wealthy suburb in Auckland. He gets all his food, which he'd eat more than 200 bucks a week from anyway. Yeah. Internet, power, the whole box of diets. Yep. Yeah. And he's, he said, Louise, oh, dad keeps coming into my room, mum, and leaving stuff. She's like, oh, okay, well, that sounds a bit weird. Let me talk about that. Yeah. He just comes in and puts stuff down.

30:00
Tids Atlas has faulted washing.

30:05
And then he's like, oh, you're charging me market rent. That's obscene. I'm moving out. We're like, okay. Yeah, go out and see how much you're really going to be charged when you get out. So he was going to be charged that amount, but he found some mates who live in Niall Road, which has got flooded in Milford. But the house was yellow stick and he went down there with his mates, but they hadn't even bothered to put the power on. So

30:33
decided he wasn't going there in the end, so he came back with a towel between his legs. Then we hear these, you know, then we're lying in bed the other night and we hear them going, oh, you know, they're on their second meal of the night. We've cooked a full family meal, right? Protein and everything. And then it's nine o'clock, so they're making another one, probably with tomorrow night's dinner. Yeah. And we hear them talking and they're going, oh, hardly worth working. We're like, oh yeah, what's that? They go, oh, and he's like, oh, we're just overhearing that.

31:02
He goes, oh, well, my now effectively on $19 an hour. And we're like, oh, yeah, what about this? And he goes, oh, well, by the time you take out rent and, you know, golf fees and petrol, you know, I only really get 19 bucks it out. That is hilarious, Grant. So that is the why of young adults. So but the point of that whole.

31:26
strangely weird is this massive mismatch between the sort of social situation, especially our young people that they live in now. And, you know, it's not entirely their own fault, right? It's mostly not their own fault. I mean, I'm sure you'd much rather go and buy a house and live there, you know, and, you know, do all that stuff, but that's not the way the world's constructed. It's just not feasible that he could go and find and, you know, get accommodation on his own or with other people that are similar.

31:55
And so we've created a social situation where, especially young people, they're in a completely different situation than what the species has been in for the whole time that they're on the planet. So that's been an interesting thing. I suppose the other thing that I think many of the people on your podcast will be really familiar with, but I just hadn't got the full implications of it, is what I'm calling the pleasure mismatch. And so the pleasure mismatch is really that...

32:24
Some things cause pleasure like pat the dog, go for a run, eat a meal, kiss your wife, husband, whatever. Those are within biological limits and that raises dopamine. Dopamine, there's not so much pleasure, but motivation, tendiveness, it's an important part of that motivational milieu. There's a reason to do it again.

32:51
Then you start to introduce some of the things that raise dopamine now, both chronically and really highly. The three that have really stuck in my mind are vaping because the nicotine raises dopamine massively. Of course, the biological response to that super normal raising is that now you've got dopamine that downregulates, so basal dopamine drops.

33:21
less motivation, it means more pain. Oh, interesting. Okay. Psychological pain. And that can be relieved by getting dopamine back up again, but it gets harder and harder. And eventually, like a smoker, a vapor is vaping just to get the dopamine back to baseline, like what you and me are sitting at now. So it plumishes pleasure, but it delivers the exact opposite. And of course, the problem with vaping over and above smoking is that you can just get more nicotine for longer.

33:50
I mean, it's not saying smoking is any good either. There's dozens of other reasons that's bad. So there's that, but they're not gaming does the same thing. Gaming does a very similar thing. It's very much designed to elevate dopamine, keeping it up for long periods of time. And so does social media. So studies of people, the more they use social media, then not for work like you do, but for those things, the lower their baseline dopamine. And so the lower your baseline dopamine, now things like...

34:19
petting the dog, eating a healthy meal, going for a run. They don't raise dopamine even back to baseline. And that state's called adhidonia, inability to feel basic pleasures. And I think the most obvious thing to me, that was my son Danny, if you give him unrestricted use of gaming, he doesn't wanna exercise anymore. The only food he wants to eat is junk food, if at all. And he doesn't enjoy school or getting good grades at school or anything. And if you ban him from that, which is an absolute shit fight,

34:50
then everything just returns to the normal boy who can experience normal things. And in many ways, I'm surprised at the mental health of our young people. It's really bad. Like I think one of the main statistics that stands in my mind is that, and so quickly, in 2010, you said on Health Survey, psychological distress measured by the K10 was 5.6% for our

35:18
16 to 24 year olds, big national survey. In 2021, it was just under 25% for the same age group. Wow. It's astonishing change. Do we have any statistics? Because obviously 2021, post COVID, how much of that would have... Yeah, it could have been, but to be fair, it was trending steadily upwards across the other two surveys that occurred between there anyway. So COVID could indeed have exacerbated it and it could have looked down again. But you know...

35:47
Nonetheless, that's what it is and it was going upwards. Well, that's interesting Grant. So a couple of things. My first question is, well, not question, but you mentioned it. So obviously it's a thing that can happen. Like you can reverse the shift in dopamine. Like how easy, like with Danny, for example, in his gaming, just to remove it, you're going to get that pain first. But over time, he just sort of reverts back to his normal.

36:13
normal sort of self. Is that something that you can expect with everyone in that sort of situation? Yeah. So that's Anna Lemke, the Harvard psychiatrist, dopamine nation book on the dopamine fasting. Yeah, that's right. And she's way for that. She's just like, stop, reset. And it's very different than the harm minimization approach to addictions and those types of behaviors that we've taken. You're an alcoholic for life. You've got a gaming addiction, these things.

36:41
or you're an alcoholic, just do these things, just like stop, reset the system. It's rather than thinking about this as pathology, it's 100% normal biology, but just unfortunately hacked by an environment that doesn't match. I much prefer to think about it that way. Yeah. So my brother used to be so addicted to gaming. He would game all of the time. And the thing that saved him was golf.

37:09
And I don't know what happened and how it happened, but he discovered golf and now he spends all his time golfing. But it's sort of like switching out one thing for the other. But I have to say, like the impact of golf, like, because he's socializing with his friends, he's outside, he's getting that low level activity that golf provides, and it motivates him to get into the gym to be strong, to be better at golf, or whatever you need to be better at golf. You know?

37:39
the outcome of his behavior change, despite the fact that it's like, some might say he's a bit obsessed with golf now, and I'd probably agree, but it's just, it's got to be better. Yeah. And I suppose the other good thing about that is of course, is that golf probably does increase your dopamine and all those things, but it does within normal levels. Yeah. Good call. Yes. And so now he can feel pleasure from all the other things in life that he probably couldn't. I honestly just go...

38:07
I would expect our mental health to be even worse. Yeah, interesting. Under these conditions for our young people. I mean, what a struggle. I'm glad we grew up not in that era. Yeah. Do you think it's just that we're more resilient than we give ourselves credit for? Yeah, maybe, but we still could do better. Yeah. So another question. You know, Rich Roll talks about this a bit in his podcast, and you know, he was addicted to drugs and alcohol. He got off that and then he found endurance sport.

38:36
And now people criticize him for being addicted to endurance sport. But I mean, you and I are both on the probably on the cusp of potentially being described the same, the same way. Like, you know, we're addicted to the the what we get from exercise. But again, that's way better than being addicted to drugs or alcohol. Like, is it just swapping one bad thing for another? Yeah, well, I suppose you've got to look at the net harms versus benefit. And

39:06
as soon as the harms outweigh the benefits, you're in big trouble, aren't you? I'd argue at least for you and me that there may be some minor harms from really prioritizing exercise over a lot of other things, but in the end, those benefits, at least in my mind, trump any harms by miles. Whereas I can't imagine if I just drank booze all the time, there'd be much evidence of that. Yeah, yeah.

39:33
No, I totally appreciate that. Also, that whole social aspect, that whole social thing is super interesting. In your book, are you going to cover off what now? Because I mean, these are realities. Yeah. So all those mismatches are very interesting. That's right. But the whole second half, I've tried to, I don't know if it's going to work, but I tried to make this periodic table looking thing of eight things that I call essential elements. And

40:02
So fitness is medicine, food is medicine. I've actually got time is medicine with the algorithm stuff that I talked about. Breathing is medicine, temperature is medicine. Thinking is medicine. I've also had excitement is medicine and light is medicine. So I think these are all of the behavioral techniques that I'm aware of that start at a minimum effective dose and build to some complexity for peak performance.

40:31
And you're not going to engage in all of them in the way that I do. But it gives a little roadmap of different things that are interesting. And I think the world's changing so fast. I've learned so much, especially in the last 10 years, about things that I never intended to. I would have never thought that I would be spending $12,000 a sauna and have a chest freezer in my backyard. Who would have thought that was even a thing?

40:58
I thought it was going to be a bit cheaper. I had it on my Christmas list. Well, that's not even counting the fact that even when you've got it there, it's in a fricking kit set. You've got zero chance of putting it together yourself. And then you have to get someone to do that. And then you have to get it wired in. But no, no, no, no. It's not, it can't connect to the normal mains. It can't just plug in. It's got to be wired with a special heavy duty cord that's got to come direct from some, you know, so $2,000 later there.

41:25
But well worth it, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So it got distracted there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's all good. Because I actually was going to ask you about the sauna. Because I often think about the sauna when I think about when people talk about endorphins, you know? Which you didn't at all mention, but that's where my head was going, we're talking about sort of pleasure seeking and feeling happy and the fact that the sauna, and you must, do you have this in your book about the dine orphans? I haven't actually written the hate section yet. I think I just.

41:54
mentioned before we got going that I'm on 49,000 or something words. Yes. And I'm still making my way to the heat because temperature is medicine section. You can have the transcript of our talk if you like and I'll do the next 280 for you. But so with the sauna, one of the reasons why it's one of the what science suggests is that it changes how our brain responds.

42:22
in the, with the heat, it releases, the heat releases something called our dynorphins, which are the opposite of the endorphins, which cause pain and discomfort and you're uncomfortable. But what that then does is outside of sauna time, the things that give you pleasure, give you an elevated sense of pleasure and joy. So in fact- Oh, I've got to get into that. I actually didn't know about that mechanism. I'm all over the, you know, the Maya kinds and the-

42:51
fluid volume and the heat shock proteins, but I've got to get into that. Is that right? That's cool. Yeah, it's so cool. I'll send you a link. I'm sure it must have been Rhonda Patrick that I heard that from because she, as you know, she's like, she knows almost everything about the sauna. Oh, so that really fits into the whole choose your hard theme, right? So you actually like temporarily hurting yourself slightly. Yes, yes, but for the ultimate gain of being happier overall. Is that true of hard exercise as well, I wonder? Oh, I don't know, Grant.

43:19
I reckon that's something else that you need to add to your thing to add us chat. I came all over that. Who knows what you learn off the micropedia podcast. I know they. OK, that's cool. Yeah. But but the sort of thing like honestly, I think we'd have 300 saunas a year. Oh, yeah. Amazing. So it's just quite a habit. The other good thing about a sauna that's just not discussed, that is nothing physiological, is that you get the family in there in the evening and you're talking to each other. Yes.

43:47
What else are you going to do? It's like on your device, we've got one of the steam type ones, you're not taking your phone in there, it'll get completely baked. So that's a massive unexpected benefit. For sure. And where does that fit in your table, your elements table? Like the social aspect, the relationships, that kind of thing? Yeah, I think I was originally going to have one called Friends are Medicine until I realized that actually, pretty much all of the things have

44:17
that involve, right? So if you're exercising and being fit, like outdoors with other people, it's obviously the ceiling. Food, like what are you gonna sit there and eat your perfectly constructed nutritional meal by yourself? Yeah, there are people that do that. Yeah, right. But I can't imagine that so good. And then across all of these things, other people being involved is like...

44:44
critical. You know, I was just also reading a study this morning, I'll tell you about this study. This is an interesting study. It'd be interesting to see what you think about it. It sort of sucks you, you and me, who are working a bit by ourselves at home often. They did this trial in a workplace where they got people moving around the office and they looked at their performance. And when they're within 25 feet of a low performer, their own performance dropped by 15%. And when they're within 25 feet of a high performer, their own performance went up 30%. I 100% buy into that.

45:14
I've been in job settings where I'm sitting there, I'm doing my job and I'm feeling very like I'm not doing it. Like I feel like this unproductive, not doing much. Then I look around me, everyone else is doing this. And I'm like, sweet. And even more so, then I'm called into the boss's office and I'm told what an amazing job I'm doing. And actually... All you're doing is bringing your friends.

45:37
No, no, they're bringing me down. Oh, I see. Yeah, I get it. OK. Yes. So I'm like, oh. But what you do, so what, if you're at home, though, working and Barry's there, yeah, you need Barry to be within 25 feet. Measure it out. Yeah, OK, well, he's a good worker, Barry. He gets stuff done. Yeah, you better lift you. Yeah. But I saw, you know, like there's, and actually, there's nothing worse than feeling like you're not doing a good job.

46:05
actually, and you're getting away with it. I don't feel good about that at all. In fact, it's demotivating and it's a bit depressing. So to be in a high performance environment, I can so see why that's going to be beneficial for your performance. Yeah. That's back to the friends are medicine thing. I suppose the other thing is that we're all wide. That's evolutionary conserved thing of those mirror neurons, right? We're supposed to work in small groups. Yes.

46:30
when someone hurts you hurt when they're happy you're happy. Obviously not as much but it's an effect. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the fact that dogs share those same mirror neurons as humans is like a cool thing. Yeah, totally agree. So Grant, on your book then, so you're at 49,000, what is that 900 and... No, 712. 712 words. When are you, what's your sort of release date for this?

46:58
I was thinking, yeah, early next year, because I told you, she'd like, I don't know how many it's going to end up being, could be in the 80,000, I suppose. And then you got to get someone to edit it so that she makes sense. And it's readable. And so, yeah, who knows? Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Now, let's talk about nutrition, because I know you're big on nutrition, maybe not as big as what you were, because we all have our evolution of thoughts and the importance of all these things. Where are you at with seed oils?

47:28
Oh yeah, so I've just written a whole section on that. Amazing. I've been writing a nutrition section. So I wrote nutrition controversies section. So I did saturated fat and seed oils all in one section. And then I did salt and fiber. Awesome. And so I think on the fats, it's interesting. They started, I'm not sure if you're aware of that, they started, you can measure.

47:57
fatty acid composition of your fat cells. If you start measuring that about 1950, we're about the same as a chimpanzee in the ratio of omega-6 omega-3s. It's just tracked linearly upwards over the last 70 years. Now that it's a completely different shape. I suppose if I talk about C2O2, I'm specifically talking about linoleic acid. Where do we find that, Grant?

48:27
It's in all sorts of oils. It's in a little bit of all oils, but it's higher in things like corn oil, safflower oil, canola is probably half and half, 50%. So between 50% and 70% of the high ones that people would call industrial seed oils, I suppose is what they want to call them. But these are manufactured oils, probably generally unstable. I think our first principle is you go, well, there's a bent

48:57
polyunsaturated bond and that's why these things don't fit together at room temperature. That's why they're not like butter or coconut oil or lard. They're not straight carbon. They're just floating around in things. Is that molecule easily broken and oxidized? I reckon that's absolutely it is. So it's a more easily oxidized oil. And then you go, and there's such a zeitgeist of epidemiology around this. And I've been following this on Twitter or X or whatever it's called recently, and there's been a bit of a fight about...

49:26
Huberman's put out, seed oil is bad for you. And I think there's been that lane Norton's been going, oh, they're nothing but good. And this has been piping out if you've observed any of that. Yeah, I have. Yeah, sorry. Partially what motivated me to get back into the data. I think on balance, the epidemiology now supports a case that high amounts of omega-6 to omega-3 are bad. Yeah. So I think he's got to specifically study that.

49:55
The studies on substituting in and out, polyunsaturated and monosaturated and saturated fats just really show nothing. The benefit, not bad, not worse, but those stuff are from sensitivity problems. But if you specifically look at that ratio, I think that's a thing. And then you start to look at mortality. And people talk about that Hooper ratio, which is the amount of omega-6. Mortality just trends straight upwards and strongly. So I think on...

50:25
I would say processed vegetable oils fall into the category of ultra-processed food in my mind. So this will open. That's where you land. And that's sort of what, that's my thinking as well, Grant, like all of those oils that you mentioned there, I mean, yes, you can pick them up off a shelf, some of them you can pick up off the shelf, but ultimately, most people are going to be consuming them in ultra-processed food. So if your diet has minimal ultra-processed food.

50:54
from that aspect first and foremost, then you are somewhat protected. And then of course, actively seeking out sources of omega-3s is the flip side of that, right? Yeah. So other nutrition things that I've been thinking about, I'd be interested in your feedback because you're way more down the rabbit holes than I am. I've just been thinking about the four or five plausible ways that food can affect your health. Yeah. So I want to talk about this. The first one is that you just got to get enough energy.

51:22
enough essential nutrients and includes protein, essential fatty acids and micronutrients. That's the first goal of eating is to get enough of those. If you don't do that, good luck. If you're getting insufficient energy and insufficient nutrients for growth and development. Not only that, we're finely tuned. Under normal conditions, we should be finely tuned to that. We go through puberty, we eat exactly the right amount more to grow the things we need to grow.

51:53
Same with pregnancy and everything. We're so finely tuned for it under normal circumstances. So that's the first plausible way. The second, they just get more nuanced, right? So the more nuanced thing is that if you can't control the sugar and insulin and therefore all of the other hormones in your body, which are affected by food, and there's 64 odd hormones, right, but we get down to leptin, the ancretin hormones, ghrelin, thyroid, testosterone, estrogen, and this goes on and on, right?

52:23
growth hormone. Those are profoundly affected by the sugar and insulin and first-stage neuroblast. If you're insulin resistant and you're never returning those back to baseline or hardly ever where you've got massive excursions, then that's a hugely plausible way that food can affect you. The third out of the four ways is that food

52:52
glycation and oxidative stress. And they all cause one another. Like high blood glucose causes glycation of tissues and advanced glycated end products. Those themselves are inflammatory. That inflammation itself causes oxidative stress in every which way that triad works. And foods can cause that both directly, like high insulin glucose causes that, insulin's inflammatory. But you can eat foods. There's different things you can eat. Like...

53:20
trans fats or oxidized vegetable oils or even meat, high temperatures could be glycated. And so that's another plausible way that food could affect your body. And the fourth way I think is that there's other reasons that a normal inflammatory response, a normal immune response could just go completely off the reservation. So you just eat.

53:51
gluten or something and their body's just like, this is not a thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to envelop it and kill it and expel it from this here body. And that process is highly harmful with this sort of autoimmunity, I suppose. So those are the really the four big things that I've been thinking about. Yeah, nice. And then you go, well, is there a, is there a grade of solutions to healthy eating?

54:19
then you're starting at minimum effective dose and getting harder and harder. And I think on that provides a framework. The first is octoprocessed food. You just start eating actual whole plants and animals. And that could be good. So that's good. But if you're insulin resistant and you're having difficulties controlling your blood sugar, you might have to watch your starches a bit and reduce that load. And then actually for some people, even with that, there's some specific thing for some

54:48
unknown or known reason that they respond badly to and that has to be identified. Yeah, yeah. In my mind, that's the hard part of nutrition, right? There's sort of graded levels of involvement here. But actually, you'll have to get to the third one if you've got an autoimmune problem, you're going to have to do all three. And that's why it's so much harder for some people than other people can just clean up their diet and everything works. Oh, sorry.

55:17
The one I missed out there is number two, which is before the insulin and glucose and the carb thing is prioritized protein. I think the reality is that, you know this even more than me, but if I study teenagers, if I study older adults, if I study adults, oh my God. Most of them don't even get to the 0.8 grams per kilo a day, let alone twice that, which is where I think they should be. Yeah.

55:45
And obviously we are both on the same page with that. Um, a couple of thoughts, Grant, cause I think that framework is, is such a good starting point in your first point, when you mentioned that people should get sufficient energy, that would be a great, cause the one thing that most people agree on, regardless of whether you are, dare I say paleo, vegan, carnival, whatever is that it's the calorie is the biggest toxin in the diet. And eating too many calories, regardless of where they come from.

56:15
can begin that process of not just insulin resistance, I guess, but with everything else sort of going out of whack. So not only is the making sure you get sufficient energy, making sure you don't get too much. But of course, when you talk about ultra processed food, that is obviously going to come into that because people minimize their ultra processed food. The solution takes care of the calorie as the toxin. But I reckon that would be quite good for you to mention. Yeah, that's true. And also I've just been thinking about...

56:44
Insufficient energy is an issue. And that's why your protein sparing modified fast is a bloody good idea because it avoids that major issue of just like, I'm not eating today. And then I'm just going to carry on with that because I feel even better. So energy, cyclical, severe energy deficiency is also being a problem. That's why we've got Yo-Yo diets. That's why we've got the set point theory and people undermine their metabolic rate. And that's...

57:14
actually inadvertently contributes to weight gain and unhappiness and all that sort of stuff as well. So I didn't put that one there just randomly. It's like, you've got to get it.

57:27
body realising it's got incoming energy. And I do do some fasting now and then. But I wouldn't do that lightly. And I think as you're an aging person, especially woman, you want to be careful about it. Yeah, for sure. And the other one I wonder if, because it's not food related necessarily, but it totally changes how your body responds to food is, is the stress. Like, and so, yeah, yeah. So I know that you'll bring that in somewhere, but that I think, and probably that will come into the

57:57
The second one that you're talking about, like blood sugar control and stuff like that, because that's where that sort of directly, it's a direct line to impacting on blood sugar control and hormones. Yeah, like you have the exact same male with a poor night's sleep stressed out, feeling judged, blah, blah, blah. Then on another day with all those aren't true. Yeah. I mean, it's just a completely different metabolic response, isn't it? I think it's the under, somehow we've managed to completely miss this point in medicine,

58:27
about the role of stress. First of all, at one point we've gone, oh, stress is bad when in fact, acute stress is really good. On the other hand, we haven't quite identified that chronic stress is as destructive as it is, at every level. Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah, and also hydration. Like being chronically dehydrated is just a recipe for disaster when it comes to stress. Yeah, I've been thinking about that.

58:55
It's interesting you mention hydration because I've been thinking about that a lot. And so I've just been actually listening to the latest Petyr Atea podcast on that. And he's, of course, well, it's about prostate function, which is not really going to be in any of it. It's like me talking about menstrual cycles. You're not going to get your head around this. Except for as you age, your prostate enlarges. Not that you know that, but you need to get up and go to the toilet all the time at night if you're...

59:21
drink too much. So there's a bit of a drinking control thing there. That's been interesting. But just back up to the hydration bit. The other point is, when you look at, if you go through Wikipedia, not Micopedia, and you look at hormesis, right? Yes. If you go through a sort of list of hormetic things, and then you start to follow some of the links and you get to intermittent drinking.

59:48
We're not talking about booze, we're talking about watering. It's like, you know, you want to be not chronically dehydrated, but acute dehydration is highly hormonal. Well, so because I remember someone hearing someone talk about this, like, is there any evolutionary advantage to being dehydrated? Like, you know, what is the what? And so what were they talking about with regards to the

01:00:18
positive outcome of that acute dehydration? Well, that's a good question. I was just mulling in my head after I said that. I'd be interested to ask CHEK TBT about that actually. But yeah, yeah, yeah, I've got to go and look that up. But there's intermittent drinking is seen as a thing. I'm not saying you ought to be chronically dehydrated, but then you can mix it up with the... I'm not convinced that there's... Are people walking around chronically dehydrated? Well, I just wonder, like, so, okay, so, because so many people I talk to,

01:00:47
have energy issues. And so instead of drinking enough, instead of thinking, hmm, am I thirsty? They think they're hungry and they eat. Yes, that's a good point. But I understand what you're saying. Is it really an issue? Maybe not. Maybe I've got a skewed population because people are coming to me because they're low on energy. Maybe they're a minute percentage of the population.

01:01:11
That's how we inform our opinions. I reckon that thirst is pretty evolutionary, but I can see if you get thirsty, you drink sorted. Until you hit menopause and then you lose those signals or they're dimmed down slightly. Oh yeah, I've got no idea about that. So in your book, what you need to do is put like a little reference saying, menopause and beyond, check out Lara Brydon and then like put a little reference to Lara. Well, I was meaning to get Lara, she was supposed to do a pre-care thing the other day, but she...

01:01:38
she got busy and said she couldn't do it, but I just really want to catch up with her with that stuff. She seems to be a bit of a legend in that respect. She's an absolute legend. And I edited, helped edit her book coming out, which is a bit of a claim of fame actually for me. That's all about metabolic health and menopause. So it's a great read and it's a really accessible read. She's like you, she's so good at being able to translate that information and for the sort of general audience.

01:02:05
That's awesome, except for she's not like me because she knows the whole area that I've got nothing, no insight on whatsoever. You know, like that's a real difficulty when you're actually not of that part of the species, you know. Yeah, no, I appreciate that. And actually, I really love the way that you never profess to know more, like because there are people out there who profess to know more, despite the very obvious fact that they're not actually a woman. Not that I'm saying that men can't know about this stuff, but you know. Oh, I think it's difficult to be honest. It's just you don't know about prostates. No, true, actually.

01:02:35
Yeah, I just hear what's reported from, you know, my dad, father-in-law, my husband. So Grant, well, I'm excited for your book. Is there anything else before we move on? Because one, I don't want to take all your afternoon, but I do want to ask you a couple more things. Is there anything else that you want to share with us about the book before we move on to my other questions? Oh, so the one thing I was doing sleep is medicine and I've changed it to light is medicine.

01:03:05
I like it. So I don't really go around them by general day, I don't know about you thinking about quantum mechanics and quantum physics. I don't know if you do that. Sometimes when I have like, I just had a guest last week who is into that because she's into Jack Cruz. And then of course, I had Michael Twyneman on my show as well, who's very into that field. But I don't think about it daily. It just sort of pops up. But it's just like, you know, like we're looking around there is all this light and you go

01:03:34
This stuff is an incredible thing, right? So it's got no mass and it's got no charge, but it travels like literally can travel billions of light years, but still can fur energy. It's not even a thing, but it moves electrons and atoms and you get photosynthesis all that way. But it's astonishing when you look into it how humans respond to light and those different wavelengths across the day and just that whole red light, that 680 nanometer stuff that's

01:04:05
on the edges of the day and directly affecting mitochondrial, turns ADP into ATP in the mitochondria of the retina. The blue light for mobilizing T cell lymphocytes and obviously the whole vitamin D pathway is an incredible thing. And that's basically photosynthetic, isn't it? And it's just a complete mismatch between light and the sort of modern environment with screens and...

01:04:32
electricity and all that sort of stuff compared to what it was. And I'm still getting my head around it, that there's quantum entanglement and quantum coherence and even smelling. The little molecules aren't necessarily fitting things. These atoms can do a thing called quantum tumbling where they move across completely things that they shouldn't move across and stimulate changes. If you understand it, you don't know what you're talking about.

01:05:01
Holy moly. That sounds like when you talk about the sunshine and smelling, I think about nitric oxide. I don't know if that's anything to do with what you're talking about, but honestly, like that was just so over my pay grade. I have no idea. Yeah. So yeah, that's just a, like, I think we're underestimating how important light is in our life. And I know quite a lot of people are talking about this, but.

01:05:29
turning it into a practical reality and Making some gains out of it. Well, do you know grant? I know that we think a lot of people are talking about stuff because I often think that bad that when I put up my 18th post of the week about how important protein is How many people are actually engaging or seeing those posts like are we just in this little bubble? Oh, yeah We just did our own Actually, and then everyone else in New Zealand, like, you know the other four and a half million people or whatever just don't

01:05:59
don't even think about it, which is why a book like yours is really important. Yeah. Especially when we seem to run hospitals in a medical system the way we actually do. Yes. But yeah, I don't know. Yeah, that's a good question. That could defeat my whole world. No, you should feel excited for the opportunity to put your information out there, I think. Yeah, that's a good point. Well, good luck with getting your head around that one.

01:06:27
I mean, the quantum entanglement and the quantum funneling like that blows my mind. Speaking of blowing my mind, how's Matt Kerr doing? Yeah. So this is for guys, people like that. He's one of the athletes I coach who was the age group world champion for the Ironman distance triathlon. And last, this time last year, he actually was going to defend that title in Kona and an old woman stepped out in front of him and he got completely...

01:06:55
at 70k's now. In fact, when I got there, he thought he had killed the woman. Oh my God, that's right. Because this is the last time we spoke was talking about Matt's protocol. Yeah. And so, and then I sort of got him back on the bike. This is like at the 178, 180k mark. And I rode with my gravel bike on the course, you know, round with my arm around him holding him on his bike. Jesus. He was basically leaning on me. Yeah. And these guys, of course, these are the best.

01:07:24
you know, athletes in the world are coming past me at like 60, 70 Ks an hour. I'm just going, and I'm just on this funny gravel bike, holding this half unconscious guy. And then I ended up in the, you know, in the bike finish shoot of the race with my bike and all these people running through it. I'm like, medical, medical, I'll get them to the medical tent. And, um, you know, I get in there and we sort of triaged the whole thing. And then, you know, he's like, oh, and then I'm like, oh, I reckon you'd be better off.

01:07:53
finishing this race, since I've come so far. Um, and we'd been in Hawaii for a month before that at a training camp. Incidentally, that place Lahaina, which got completely burnt down, which is just devastating. Oh, yes. Um, and, uh, so then he sort of ran stumbled through the marathon, like, you know, pretty much an old guy. Um, and I had to ride my gravel bike somewhere near him without getting disqualified, which

01:08:19
actually meant that you could ride down the median strip of the Queen K Highway, which is actually lava. So it's like riding a gravel bike for 40 K, you know, on the rocks between Takapuna and Milford beach. That is insane. So I don't know who was more gone at the end of that than me. Anyway, so no, it's just sort of carried on and become a professional athlete. And yeah, never easy. It's just like kind of quantum jump. Yeah. I think it came sixth or fifth.

01:08:47
Ironman New Zealand and his first Ironman. He got all right. He went to Canada, trained up to go to Ironman Canada. But then he's on the plane. He got off the plane. There was an email going, oh, due to bushfires, the whole thing's been canceled. That's right. So he had to fly home again the next day. I think he did. Didn't he do like a jog around the botanical gardens or something? Yeah, he went for one run. Yeah. Yeah, one $4,000 run. So, and then at the moment, he's going to race this weekend.

01:09:14
Ironman 70.3 in Malaysia. Cool. Which seems really hot. Yeah, it looks it, looking at social. Yeah. But the one I'm most excited about, I coach a young athlete called Amelia Life, who's a 21-year-old. Oh, amazing. 20-year-old. Yeah. Who's a good little runner. Yeah. And you might think this is too young to be a marathon. She won Mount Maunganui half marathon a year ago, came second this year, sort of won 19. Oh, great. But she's just a frigging absolute beast. She's going to do the Auckland Marathon. I reckon she could do 240 something.

01:09:44
That is amazing. It's funny that you say like, I might think she's too young. Like, you know, I know a girl who, her parents are both like, avid trail runners, Sean Collins and Mav Collins. Oh yeah? Yeah, yeah. So their girl, one of their girls, Meg, she just did 100K at Blue Lake. Wow. And she's like, what, 20, 21? So, I don't know. Like, there are, you know, if you recover well, if you train properly, if you fuel well.

01:10:13
Why not? Yeah, I merely did the 50k at the Tarawira. Geez, nice. Got fourth, first of who was not a pro. Amazing. Yeah. Yeah, for a 20 year old, that's pretty cool. Awesome, Grant. Also, on end, what about your own training? Yeah, no, good. I'm just on my daily activities. Yeah. As I said, I decided that I'd be the person you want to be, so I was going to be a runner. Yeah.

01:10:41
again, but then I got an injury straight away. Yeah, yeah. That's all right. That's all right. That's like I said, all part of the process. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. And, and my last question is any particular like favourite foods right now? That's a really good question about favourite foods. So I don't even know if this is that good for you. But I'm going to put it out there. Well, first of all, I've been, this is a really bad thing for me to say. But

01:11:09
family eat a lot of food, right? And it's been really costing a lot of money. So I started going to Costco. I actually really quite like Costco. Okay, cool. So there's a few good things. Like you get the meat's pretty good quality and not too bad a price, except for the Wagyu steak, it's like 200 bucks or something. I don't know what that's about. And you get lots of eggs and it's all good price, all that sort of stuff. Something really weird about the vegetables here. So I'm not sure if this is good or bad, right?

01:11:37
So the vegetables here, there's not much choice. They're in super good condition. They're really yummy. They don't go off. Okay, all of that sounded really good until that last one. Oh no, so you get a box of tomatoes from Costco, like a two kg box or something. Yeah. Or a three kg box and you're like, shee, we're getting through this.

01:11:58
And a month later, they're still good. Geez, that's weird, isn't it? So that's an interesting thing. But what I've been doing at Costco, and I'm not sure if this is a good thing, but you buy these, like, basically making my own keto muesli stuff, like shaved almonds and nuts and this salad mix thing that they have. And I've been eating a lot of it, and it's really yummy, but I'm not sure if it's good for you. I suppose, I'm from Blunt.

01:12:26
The scales will tell you whether or not that's a good thing or not. Why not? Well, so that's the problem for me with protein powder, Miki. I know a lot of people are big on protein powder, but as soon as I start doing protein powder, weight... Yeah. Oh, really? Yeah. Are you still mixing it with cream? Is that the problem? No, that is possibly a problem. But no, I don't think that's the major problem. I think the major problem is that...

01:12:54
It's just another, it acts like another whole meal. Yeah, yeah. I think. It's a bit like those Musashi bars, like sort of, you drink them like add-ons, but actually. Yeah, that's like the time we got 300 bucks worth and they accidentally sent us another whole 300 bucks worth as well, so we had 600 bucks worth of Musashi bars. Yeah, yeah. Um. Yeah. The real big, what size ones, which are yummy, is. Yeah, totally are. Yeah. Um, well, I mean, Grant, doesn't sound like too much of a problem, but you know, that is a really good metric

01:13:23
sort of determine that I love Costco for the reason that they have jalapeno poppers there that you cannot buy anywhere else. Like the ones that you would get in a restaurant that are legitimately like they're the jalapeno poppers, they're cream cheese and they're covered. These aren't good, obviously, but they're covered with- Oh, they're not in the health food section. Yeah, no, no, God no. But they're just, at least they're not those little jalapeno bites, which are not actually peppers. So that's what we get at Costco. Yeah. Oh, actually, I've got a question, another Costco product question for you.

01:13:53
Mickey Willard and nutritionists. Yes. Beef jerky, there's big packets of beef jerky. What do you reckon about beef jerky? Yeah, I reckon if you look at the back, because I know there are better quality ones than others, all good. Just don't get that Jack Link stuff, which I don't think they sell, but I've seen the zero sugar stuff there, and I'm like, you know what? I actually think that's not a bad buy. Yeah. I did buy the keto pancakes from there, they were disgusting.

01:14:18
and basically octoprocessed food. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know the other good thing about Costco, not that I need one at this stage, but you can buy a coffin at Costco. Can you? That is just mental. Isn't that mental? But it makes sense, you know? But you know what is absolute, like I have real...

01:14:41
issues with like, I don't know if you feel the same as me, Grant, like when you go to Costco and you see there are families there and they're having dinner because dinner costs a dollar 80. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The dollar 50 hot dog thing seems like good, but like my boys are racing after the other. And I was like, and I don't mean this in a condescending way, but I was like, guys, do you really want to be part of that crowd? And they looked at it. Oh, yeah. It's troubling to me because in one, well, like one of my, like part of me thinks

01:15:11
these people can't afford to actually eat anywhere else or at home because legitimately food can actually, like I think it's difficult to sit here and say, yeah, you can eat healthy, it's affordable. I don't know that we can say that right now. But so part of me is like, God, at least you're getting eating something. But I'm like, what have we come to that, you know, you've got this food, this loss, it's obviously like some sort of like loss leader or something for Costco is where they're able to

01:15:39
food at very cheap money that people just want to eat. It's funny you mention that because I actually woke up in the middle of the night last night and if you indulge me, I really want to tell you what I was thinking about. I was thinking about if you made a documentary of like, you know, the Super Size Me, but it was just people went to the only place they ate was Kmart for hot dogs and pizza.

01:16:04
would happen to that. So that's randomly what I broke up and was thinking about last night in the middle of the night. Interesting. Which I've forgotten about until this moment. And someone may have done that. So if anyone knows about that, tell us. But I don't imagine it'd be good, right? Well, well, you'd think so. But there's one guy who's called the Twinkie Professor. And he ate a diet of absolute processed food. He took a multivitamin. He set his calories at like 1500, lost weight.

01:16:31
So it was calorie controlled. So things like that have been done, actually. Yeah, I can't imagine things like it was liver function and... Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's short term, right? So what happens in two years, three years? One last question, if you indulge me, Grant. So I'm doing Auckland Marathon. Oh, you are? Yeah. So I just came back from Colorado and went...

01:16:55
can I make use of this altitude training and all of the time on feet hiking? Like I know I'll do some six week builds to Auckland, right? Oh awesome. And so at the minute my VO2 max is 48 according to my Garmin. Oh nice. Normally it's at like 51 or 52, it goes to 52 but it's normally 51, 52. As much weight as you can put in this I'm not sure. Oh I reckon they're good, I've done it in the lab and it gave me the same answer as my Garmin. Oh really? Yeah. Oh amazing. Okay so like

01:17:24
that I can, so if I put my 5k time into VDOT calculator. Oh, now that's, that's, I think that's problematic. Okay, okay. You might've just answered my question. So the VDOT calculator tells me based on my current 5k time, which was before I went to Colorado, that I could do a 317 marathon. Yeah, so I think that's accurate.

01:17:48
up until a certain point in your running career. Oh, am I just, am I a bit old? Is that what you're saying? Like if I was like... Well, I don't know if age has got anything to do with it, but yeah, no, I don't, I could be wrong, but I don't like your chances. Okay. So, okay. That's what I'm saying. No, this is good. So I VDOT'd Amelia, and I'm basing everything exactly on that. So I'm not, I'm a fan of the VDOT. For a younger, more vibrant athlete, is that what you're saying? I think you've...

01:18:17
I think, you know, she's running 120 to 150 Ks a week. So, so I think under those conditions, it's, you know, and for the tri-thletes, they're running 80 Ks a week, but they're training 25 hours. I think, I think the VDOT is like bang on, right? Yeah. But so take my son Sam, who's a pretty good tri-thlete, pretty good runner, but he's not really doing, he's doing more like 12 hours a week. The VDOT just completely falls to pieces from 5K. OK. You can run a good 5K. Yeah. And I, I.

01:18:47
I've been watching you vicariously on Strava and I reckon while you're running and running reasonably well, you're not doing enough miles for the V-DOT to translate to a marathon. I think you don't want to be. Yeah. And I actually think you're right too. Like, cause I think about this and I think, so I know what it feels like to run that fast and I don't, and so I'd really have to dig deep to hurt that much for that long.

01:19:13
And I was unsure. This is why I thought I'd bring it to the table and see what your response was. Well, I don't want to be negative, but I think you'd have a much better experience at like 330. This is what, yeah. Yeah. And I'm pleased. And I don't actually, I don't think you'll be negative. I think you're being realistic. I needed a reality check from that V dot thing. So this, which is great actually, because actually my pacing, so I'm trying...

01:19:36
Keeping up with the sort of a pace probably more around 324 to 330 if I'm honest, like in my threshold runs. So that's what I'll try and do when I get to Auckland actually. Yeah, it's not actually, it's not an easy course either, you know, like you can, you sort of, I feel you've got to try and coast up the hills in the whole first half of it and then work down them. Yeah.

01:20:01
And people do the exact opposite. They work up them and coast down them. Yeah. But if you can coast up the hill and conserve some energy, I think that makes a big difference on that actual event. Yeah. OK, this is good advice. So you just, the group, whoever you're running with, let them get ahead of you up the hill. And then crest the hill strongly and catch them down the downhill. It's like the, so the way to get to the same place. Yeah. So should I just go out with a 330 pacer then? Well, I don't want to be mean to you. Yeah.

01:20:30
Is it not going to break your world or something? Oh God no. No, I actually thought, oh I'll do 330. And then I saw the VDOT and went, oh okay, well maybe I'll do it. No, no, you just, they're working that out on a slightly different population. One time in your life you fitted that population. I totally did. And I will forever hang my hat and dine out on the times that I was amazing.

01:20:57
So I think then what I will do is because I think I can easily do five minute case. Like I think that actually won't be a problem. And if I can just hold on and then in the last 10 K I'll go for it. Yeah. If you have somehow feeling awesome and you can pick it up. Yeah. Amazing. I see you. That could happen. That could happen. You're a little bit less. You don't actually think that'll happen. But yeah, we'll see. Are you running it Grant? Well, I'm supposed to be doing the half marathon. Cool. But I need to recover from Miss Kelly's injury.

01:21:26
But I am training enough to do it. Cool. See, I was really fit. Yeah. And I was going to do this half marathon at Mount Maunganui. Then I got like COVID quite badly. That's right. And I had to reduce myself to the 5K. And even then I got cramp at the 5, 4.8K. I had to walk at it. This doesn't bode well. Just calf hypertrophy, Grant. That's what you need. What's that?

01:21:52
Oh, just bigger calves. Yeah, and actually working on your calves. Oh yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. Oh, okay. So let's wind this up. This was excellent training advice for me, excellent life advice for the listeners and me, and just a good general chat. Can you remind people where they can find your insights, Precure, all of that stuff? Oh yeah, so precure.com with a K, prevention is cure.

01:22:19
And then there's also the Future of Medicine site, if you just search for Future of Medicine New Zealand all the videos are going up there with all the talks for free, they'll be awesome. That'd be so good. And there is a Profgrat.com blog site and all that sort of stuff. Except for some friggin' someone from somewhere in the world hacked it the other day and I can't get on it. And I haven't figured out how to get around to fixing it yet. You gotta get Danny onto that, he'll sort that out. Yeah, well that's right, so... Hey Grunt, thanks for the chat. Thanks Miki, that's awesome.

01:23:00
Alrighty then, hopefully you enjoyed that as much as I enjoyed doing it. It's always a really good opportunity for me to catch up with my mates. And in fact, when I started Micopedia, that was actually the feedback I got from another one of my friends. Miki, you're just able to just, you're using it as an excuse just to...

01:23:20
chat to your friends and to be fair that is true but I also get to chat to some of the experts in their field of inquiry and with that in mind next week on the podcast I get to talk to someone who has been a mentor from afar for several years now Dr Jade Tita so I'm looking forward to bringing that conversation to you next week.

01:23:46
Until then though, you can catch me over on Instagram, Twitter and threads @mikkiwilliden, Facebook @mikkiwillidenNutrition or head to my website mikkiwilliden.com, you can send an enquiry there. Alright team, you have a great day, see you soon.