Transcript produced using AI transcription services, errors may occur. Contact Mikki for clarification

00:03
Welcome, hi, I'm Mikki and this is Mikkipedia where I sit down and chat to doctors, professors, athletes, practitioners and experts in their fields related to health, nutrition, fitness and wellbeing and I'm delighted that you're here.

00:25
Hey everyone, it's Mikki here. You're listening to Mikkipedia, and this week on the podcast, I talk to Guillaume Millet, an athlete himself, all about the endurance athlete and fatigue. We discuss factors which determine success, how important VO2 maxes for someone going long, Guillaume's flush model of fatigue, what creates fatigue, how we might train to be a better athlete and build resilience against

00:54
fatigue. And at the time of the recording, we had just had the UTMB in Chamonix and Courtney DeWalter had just collected her triple crown. So we begin our discussion by having a bit of chat about that, which was super fun. So for those of you who are interested in endurance sport and building resiliency, this is an awesome conversation and I'm delighted to say that Guillaume is going to come back on the show.

01:22
just after the new year and we're going to talk sex differences and endurance athletes, but for now we focus particularly on fatigue and building resiliency. So Dr. Guillaume Millet is a professor at Jean Monnet University in Saint-Étienne. From 1998 to 2013 he held various academic positions in France, including a four-year full-time research contract at the French National Institute for Medical Research.

01:50
And in 2013, he moved to the University of Calgary, where he directed a research team in the neuromuscular fatigue lab. And he was also the vice chair research for the Canadian Society for Exercise Physiology from 2014 to 2016. He subsequently went back to France and received a very competitive fellowship that attracts outstanding scientists with a strong international track record.

02:18
and he now leads the ACTA-FS, Physical Activity, Fatigue and Health Academic Chair. So his general research area investigates the physiological, neurophysiological and biomechanical factors associated with fatigue, both in extreme exercise and in patients with neuromuscular diseases, cancer, and patients in intensive care.

02:43
His research is focusing on understanding fatigue in order to create tailored rehabilitation programs for clinical populations in order to enhance patients' quality of life. And we do discuss a little bit about how everyone is just on a spectrum. And so most of the same principles really apply. Guillem has published many books, journal articles, and has supervised many post-doctoral fellows and PhD students from

03:12
13 different countries and I have a link to Guillaume's profile and his research gate page in the show notes for you to have a closer look at his research that we discuss today. Just a reminder that the best way to support the podcast is to hit the subscribe button on your favourite podcast listening platform. That increases the visibility of the podcast out there in amongst literally thousands of other podcasts so more people get the opportunity to learn.

03:40
from the guests that I have on this show, including Guy and Manet.

03:48
Thank you, Yumi. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me this morning. It's great to chat to someone who is both in the research with running and I know it's not just running you do you have a health focus as well. But you're also in with athletes too and some of the like creme de creme of of the athletes in the ultra space. Are you a runner as well? I used to be.

04:18
Do you still run? Yeah, I run for my pleasure, but I'm not competing anymore. I did a competition last year. I may do one this year again or two, but yeah, just for fun. But I used to be a heavy ultra endurance runner myself. Yes, yes. And it's funny, the way you describe how you run now is pretty much everyone, every middle-aged, I'm middle-aged, every middle-aged runner would probably

04:46
Let's probably say the same thing. People are still competing pretty hard at, well, I'm 54 and some people are still doing, like take Ludovic Pommeret. He's not 54, he's 48. So he's still placed fifth at the UTMB this year. It is crazy, isn't it? And do you, are you familiar with Mike Wardian? No. The American runner. He's.

05:15
He's not, I think he might be just on 50 and he is in amazing shape for his age. And I shouldn't really say that, but it is, it sort of is, you know, for how old he is, but also the type of runner he is as well, Guillaume, because he is, he's very, he seems very resilient with a high training load. And I don't know that very many people are actually. Yeah, yeah, that's true. Some people are.

05:46
incredibly strong and never injured. And some people are always injured and it's a part of the mystery, I guess, of training. This is, of course, if you, if you want to be good, the first thing is to keep training. So being resilient to injuries is fundamental, of course. Yeah, completely. And I definitely want to delve into some of the factors which help make us resilient as ultra runners. First, of course, because we are on elite runners.

06:16
resiliency and huge workloads, Courtney DeWalter. And in her most recent Triple Crown, I'm super keen to get your thoughts on that, given of course, your close relationship with Salomon in their Zone High program that you're now running. Yes, I can tell I'm very close to Courtney. I've been meeting her a couple of times during the year and during training camps, etc.

06:45
super nice person, that's for sure. But her training is like, she's her own coach, she doesn't have a coach and she is not very interested in scientific support. You know, she loves to run, like she feels she must run and doesn't have much of a plan, as she keeps saying, but I think this is the truth. That being said, I'm...

07:13
everyone I guess, super impressed by what she has done. Of course as a in charge of the scientific support of the of the team I was super anxious about her being injured after during such a heavy year. It didn't happen. I know that she is now taking some very good rest So hopefully she will let her body recover after this crazy year but yeah

07:42
It was obvious from the UTMB that that was a tough one. I mean, what she has done, the Western State and Hard Rock was probably the most difficult call, on paper at least, because she had only three weeks of recovery. But yeah, but it was, I was able to tell, I mean, that was not the only one, but seeing her running and struggling at UTMB.

08:08
Uh, she really shows how hard it was. Um, I mean, it was obvious that she didn't recover. She was not at UTMB at her normal level. Uh, and of course, I guess we can understand based on everything she has done this year. Uh, but it was, uh, yeah, UTMB I think has been great for her. Um, but, uh, yeah, this is, this is just very impressive and I'm glad she succeeded, but I hope she won't do that every year because, uh, she's still a human.

08:37
Right. I mean, she's so, so good. It will be too bad that she, she gets injured. So, but she, she did it and that's the main thing. Yeah, that's amazing. And it's that, you know, I have seen, and as I understand with sort of training and it's, you know, the training is one part of it, but the, allowing the body to recover, to absorb the training, to then be able to train.

09:04
and be resilient to that is super important. And I suppose we've all got our own sort of levels of how much recovery we need in order to become fitter as opposed to continue to stress the body and then lead to injury, I suppose. Yeah, I think the body can do a lot provided you let him recover.

09:26
Recover is not one week of recover every year, it's several weeks, or if not several months, and at least several months out of running. And the best two trendsetters athletes, in particular Kilian and François Dain, they are both heavy skiers in winter. And I think it makes the difference. Like if you're off running for many months,

09:50
Every year, I think this is the key to last many years. And this is what they do. And I think it's a good example. And Coopnet is also a skier. So I think she also, I'm not 100% sure about exactly how many weeks of skiing she does, et cetera, but she's also a skier. And lots of ultra endurance runners are actually skiers, either ski-mo or cross-country skiing.

10:18
And if you're not living in a mountain region, then you can mountain bike or do cycling, et cetera. But this is very, very important to be off running for many months, in my opinion, if you want to last several years, if you want to have a long career, because we've seen, particularly in women for some reason, like super good athletes doing a couple of seasons and then we don't see them again. Yeah, that's a real shame. And it's...

10:47
I was actually thinking about there was a movie, it was, I don't know, maybe five or 10 years ago, maybe five or seven years ago. And it was the Unbreakables. And it, I think Killian might've been in it and there were like maybe three other runners and they appeared to have the seasons of their career. Like they were just super fit. They were running all of the time. And as a, um,

11:10
as a, I'm not going to say recreational runner, because I do not like that term, because I think we all take our running as seriously as we do. But as a non-elite runner, there you go, I was watching it and part of me felt really envious that I didn't have the ability to continue to push the way that I saw the runners push in that movie. Subsequently, when I went and Googled them afterwards, I saw that three out of the four,

11:36
experienced what they called burnout and then had either several seasons off to sort of regroup or even just sort of leave the sport altogether, which is a real shame actually. Yeah, no, that's true. So that's why you need to truly recover again many, many weeks or even months, at least off-running. But I believe it should be off-training at all for several weeks, like more for the monthly aspects.

12:05
And of course, there is also a compromise to find because if you're covering or stopping training for too long time, then of course your level of fitness decreases immediately, I mean from the first day of course. And so it's sometimes difficult to regain this fitness level and especially if you gain weight, etc. But yeah.

12:33
the long term I think it's still very useful and actually mandatory compulsory. Yeah, Guillaume, is there some sort of formula with which for every kilometer or mile that you race that you should have x number of days off? Like do you buy into that kind of formula? Is it just something I've read in runner's world which doesn't really hold true? No, I don't think there is any scientific basis for that. Some people are saying if you run an

13:03
For every 10k you should have one day of rest. It seems a reasonable approach. And again, you must differentiate the total rest and rest without running. Because if you do like a one hour or two hours easy cycling run, ride, I think that's okay. If you just want to be in the nature and enjoy, have fun.

13:30
It's probably okay as long as you really don't push and you don't run. Guillaume, can we just have a little bit of your sort of background? Like was your interest in fatigue and endurance performance based on your own sort of background with running or how did it come about for you? I would say both. I think it was the

13:56
a bit of an opportunity to do a PhD on this topic and of course my interests in endurance sports since I'm very little, very young, because I've been cross-country skier and then endurance

14:17
So there was an opportunity to work. I did my PhD on a... It was not fatigue actually during my PhD. It was more energy cost of running and cross-country skiing. But I had the chance to find a supervisor, or two supervisors who were interested in the sport and let me, by then, it's not like that anymore in my lab, but I was able basically to choose on which topic I wanted to work. So I was very lucky.

14:44
And then when I got my first position, it was a lab with a huge expertise in neuromuscular function. And then I decided to specialize in neuromuscular fatigue and then apply that to first like classic sports and then ultra. And then it was there was not much by then. So I decided to dig further in this topic.

15:13
And then, so I did that for the first probably 10 years of my career was mainly on athletes and nutrients athletes and the people going at altitude, etc. like extreme exercise. And then I started to work on patients. And as you said at the very beginning, I'm more and more working on fatigue in patients. So yeah, my career has been almost entirely dedicated to fatigue, initially mainly athletes and now both mainly patients, even though I try to

15:41
to still work on running and extreme fatigue. And I think the two aspects of fatigue can almost help each other in a sense that what we do with our faith can help patients and vice versa sometimes. Yeah, I imagine a lot of the same concepts or things that you're looking at or measuring would transfer over, but just on a different level or in a different context.

16:11
Would I be right about that? Yes. And for instance, there are some training techniques or methods that we use with athletes that we, there is no reason that we don't use that with patients. Of course, we just need to adapt the workload and the type of workouts, but there are, again, if it's efficient for athletes, there is no reason that it doesn't work with patients. And this is what we try to do using some techniques like enteral training or electro stimulation, et cetera.

16:40
Um, yeah. So I think it's, it's still important to, to, to work on athletes. At least it's not, I mean, it's not mandatory. You can of course focus only on technical work, but I don't think it's a, it's a, it's an issue. I think it's an asset actually. Yeah, no, I agree. Um, if you don't mind, can we spend some time talking about neuromuscular fatigue, your flush model, which I believe you published in maybe 2011. So it was.

17:08
that's like 12 years ago now. Can we talk through some of the major concepts around that and how that sort of applies to performance and fatigue for the ultra runner? Sure. So, neurosclerosis fatigue and the flush model are not the same thing. So, I actually decided to publish this flush model because I...

17:35
I was convinced that neuromuscular fatigue is important, but of course cannot explain everything. So it's important to understand neuromuscular fatigue. So maybe we can talk about that first and then the limitation of this type of work. So neuromuscular fatigue can be defined as a decrease of functional capacities of an athlete. Well, actually...

18:03
the person, not only on athletes. So either you run a marathon, a ultra marathon, or for some people you just walk to the grocery store, then you may get some experience of functional state decline. Anyways, in athletes, we usually measure the maximal force or maximal power before and after a race, for instance. And then you can tell on the credit steps, there is a...

18:31
X percent decline in maximal force and this is a good definition of neuroskiller fatigue that actually more and more people call that fatigability or performance fatigability rather than neuroskiller fatigue it's synonyms if you wish. Anyway and then yeah so you have this X percent decrease let's say for instance after a race like a UTMB you have a 40 percent in average 40 percent decline of the maximal strength of your quareceps.

19:00
And then we try to explain using different techniques, in particular, electro stimulation or even transcarnal magnetic stimulation. When we apply the magnetic field to the motor cortex, we try to understand whether the fatigue comes from the muscles or from the neural system. It's not only the brain, it's the nervous system. Yeah, so for instance, we have been

19:27
consistently showing that for ultra endurance events, in particular in running, there is a huge central component. So the central component is the component located at the neural system level. And there is still some muscle fatigue or peripheral fatigue, but much lower. And if you do more intense shorter exercise, this is the other way around. You have more peripheral fatigue and less central fatigue. And there is,

19:56
published a paper recently showing that if you do the exact same exercise in running and cycling, then the part of the central versus peripheral fatigue also changes. You have in running, you have more central fatigue and in cycling, you have more peripheral fatigue, muscle fatigue, showing that the central fatigue component is not totally in the brain. It's actually a...

20:23
coming from what is happening on the periphery. So this is why it's so complex because the central fatigue is the inability of the brain, the neural system, to drive to contract the muscles. But part of this decline, so this inability to contract the muscle can come from the muscles themselves. So it's not all in the brain. And by comparing cycling and running, I think it was a good evidence.

20:49
that because of course and everything in terms of neurotransmitter etc because it was the same duration and the same intensity there is no reason that it's very different between the two sports but what is happening at the periphery because of the contraction mode concentric in cycling and plyometric in running probably the effects on the on the muscle and the sensors in the muscle is very different.

21:16
Anyway, so this is the neuromuscular fatigue. So the importance of the central component versus peripheral component depend on many aspects, actually. So I cited the duration and intensity, the sports, or the type of contraction. But there are other factors. For instance, if you're in the heat or at altitude, the central component can be also increased, et cetera. So there are many factors that's a

21:42
impact both the amplitude of neuroskiller fatigue, how much decline you experience in terms of maximal strength, but also what we call the etiology of neuroskiller fatigue. So, particularly whether this is more central versus peripheral. Okay. And yeah, so once you have shown that, yeah, for instance, after UTMB, you have a 40% decline of your maximal strength, yeah, then you can, you're happy, you're

22:11
It was interesting, but then I was like, yeah, but that cannot explain performance. I mean, even if you decrease your maximal strength by 40%, you still have 60%. And 60% of your maximal strength, this is still a lot. And you can run at a very decent speed with only 60%. So it's obvious that limitation, and of course, I was not the first one to talk about that.

22:39
I'm sure you've heard about Team Nox and the Santa Clara model. So it was obvious that with 60%, we can run much faster than what most people do, including the best transients athletes run at the end of a neutral. So there must be something else. And this is why I decided to work on this more integrative model, the Flush model that you were talking about.

23:04
to try to expand performance and limitation during a endurance and retransurance event. So the flush model, sorry, I'm a bit long. No, no, no, I like it. It's good. You're explaining it really well. Thank you. So the flush model, well, as the name can tell, is of course based on the flush toilet. So basically, so the...

23:32
I think most people agree now that the real determinant of performance during endurance events, or even more in your endurance events, is the perceived exertion. So you really need to do everything you can to minimize that.

23:51
And I was like, okay, so let's try to represent that in a plain way, in a simple way. And I thought that the flush toilet was a very good model. So in the model, the perceived effort is the level of water in the tank. Okay. And so this is the tank and then you have, of course, you can fill this tank with water.

24:18
And this is what is happening when you start running. So you are not necessarily starting with an empty tank. And this is part of the model because of course, if you start with an empty tank, this is better, it means that you perceive the force is very low at the beginning and this is you need to do everything you can to reach that before the race. And then when you start running, of course, the level of water starts to increase your rating of the civilization starts to increase.

24:45
even if you run at the same speed. Of course if you increase the speed it changes, but if you run the same so for a given speed with time you have a slight increase in this level of water and of course you can flush the toilet when you rest or you sleep but so this is another component of the model and the fourth component that is very important is that you usually stop exercise before you die. I guess you will agree with that.

25:13
So there is what I call the security reserve. And the size of this, so, and this is also why a flush toilet was a good model because you have this sensor to that. Stops the water coming. Stops, exactly. Yeah, yeah. And so there is this sensor, this bowl.

25:35
to stop the water coming. And we have the same thing in our brain. I mean, when we feel like it's going to be too much, we are overfilled, we either decline the speed or we stop running. So we are not going too far. And the size of this security reserve can be changed by mainly by motivation, probably also by some mental training. So yeah, this flush model, I think is a

26:03
is a very good combo of everything that can happen during a race. The role that the mountain training can have, the nutrition can have, the sleep before the race, for instance, or during the race can have as well. For instance, if you start the race with some sleep deficit or some cognitive load, mental load, for some reason you had

26:32
issues in your life in the month, work or issues with your wife or your husband or your kids or at work, et cetera. Then when you start running, you have already some water in the tank. And of course, it means that you don't have much room to reach your security reserve. So you will have to decline your speed earlier during the race. And that explains why it's so important to be.

26:59
very well and monthly rested when you start to read. So anyway, so it was, well, I thought it was fun, of course, to have a model about the flush toilets, but- Yeah, for sure. It was not only for fun, I thought. Of course, I cannot tell whether it wasn't a good idea or not, but I thought it was a good idea too. No, I think it illustrates it really well, actually. And I liked it on your website, how you've got it sort of all laid out. A few things.

27:28
Um, with that one, I think athletes probably now are more aware of outside stresses impacting on their ability to rest and taper before a race. Right. So if, if you have the luxury, then it would say to me that it would be a good idea to try and, um, offload some of your other external responsibilities. So you are more relaxed sort of, and rested going into.

27:57
going into a big run. Oh yeah, I fully agree. And I think it's still, as you say, it's probably still for coming, but it's still underestimated. Like there are still many people. So of course there is this, for instance, work workload that you have to do at your job, but also some, so yeah, if you can postpone some important meetings or stuff like that after the race, I think it's a very good idea.

28:26
Of course, you need to make sure that you sleep as much as possible. So we have published a couple of papers about what we call sleep banking. So maybe we can talk about that later. But yeah, I fully agree with you that some people start to consider this aspect, but not everyone. I'm pretty sure that, for instance, some people are still preparing their racing stuff in the week before the race.

28:55
So that they are still doing that during the evening and that they are stressed because they are missing a pair of socks or whatever. And then this is a lot of anxiety because they feel like, yeah, I won't be ready for the race. So I really need to run everywhere to make sure that I get my stuff. And this should be done at least two weeks before the race so that the last week you should really...

29:18
focus on your recovery and tapering and sleep. I agree. And as you were saying, you know, the people that run around in their last day getting everything organized, I mean, that is so me, or I rely on my husband to do the organizing for me. And the sleep banking is an interesting one too, because often I don't necessarily get great sleep the night before the race. And I think that is quite.

29:47
unusual for a lot of people. What did your research show with the sleep banking, Guillaume? What kind of time are we talking here? What are some of the recommendations? The sleep banking studies have been mostly done over a week of sleep banking and sleep bank

30:13
So, if we talk about the study from ROOP or our studies with one of my student, Pierre E. Carnal, so it was a week of sleep banking, so meaning at least for us it was going to bed two hours before the usual bedtime, two hours earlier every night for six nights before a sleep deprivation

30:43
And this is usually the model that is used. And I think this should be enough for a runner. So there is no need to accumulate sleep for a month before the race. But a week, I think, seems a reasonable duration. And so it can be done. This sleep accumulation can be done by going to bed earlier, or by taking naps, or both. And if you do that, even so, the...

31:10
The night before the race, you are a bit stressed, so it's totally normal that you're so anxious about doing a good race that you may not sleep as well as usually. It's okay as long as you have accumulated sleep during the week before. And there are still techniques that you can use to relax, like breathing techniques and stuff like that.

31:39
or meditation or whatever that you can use to sleep, including the night before the race. But again, even if you are not succeeding and you don't have a very good night before the race, it's probably okay as long as you have accumulated sleep again. Yeah. But if you are...

32:03
Not doing that and you have and even if you have a good night of sleep the night before, I think this is not enough. One night of sleep is not enough to completely cancel the sleep deficit that you may have in the week before the race. So yeah, very, very important aspect.

32:26
a bit underestimated, I think, by many runners. Of course, everyone is like, yeah, I need to sleep well, but I'm not sure that they do everything they can to really accumulate sleep. Yeah, yeah, that's such a good point as well, because most people are like, right, I'll just get a really good night's sleep. The two nights leading into the race, thinking that it's completely within their control. But it's so hard to do that when you're in a different environment, potentially, and traveling around and stimulated by the

32:56
by like registration and all the rest of it's very, yeah, it's not conducive to relaxing and getting sort of, I don't know, feeling more relaxed and like you're ready for it. Especially if you have to travel, I'm not even talking about jet lag, it's a different story. Not everyone is a professional athlete, so you cannot go there 10 days. Like if you're coming from New Zealand, for instance, in France, you can.

33:22
Not everyone can afford taking two weeks to make sure that jet lag is okay. But even without talking about jet lag, there are many things that you can do to make sure that you have a good sleep the week before the race. And it's not actually only true for Ultramathron because we are talking about the positive effect that we and others have shown.

33:49
both the cognitive function but also actually the physical performance during sleep deprivation. So it was not a neurotrauma-affirm model but it was an exercise associated with sleep deprivation. So we still have to conduct a real study in the field to show the benefit of sleep extension or sleep banking.

34:13
on marathon performance. But anyway, so there was still this component of sleep deprivation in the study I was talking about. But I'm pretty convinced that this is even true if you're running like a marathon, for instance, or even a half marathon. If it's a very intense, very short discipline, such as a long jump or sprint, it's probably not as important. But as long as there

34:43
It doesn't have to be an ultra with sleep deprivation during the race. Even if it's like normal endurance race, sleep accumulation can be beneficial. Yeah, no, that makes, that makes perfect sense. And then what about sort of during the race, if we're thinking about an ultra and we're talking about how the water sort of accumulates over time in the basin, yet things can help sort of slow that down, like what?

35:09
impact does nutrition and hydration play on that sort of fatigability in ultra? What do we know about that? Well, of course, if you have not an optimal nutrition, well, nutrition can roll into aspects. So the main one is actually very important and it's like your fitness level, your training status. If you don't have a good nutrition or if you don't have a good training, it means that when you start running at a given speed,

35:38
your muscle fibers will start to fatigue earlier than if you have a good condition and a good fatigue, sorry, training state. And then it means that you will have to recruit more other muscle fibers and there is what we call a feed-forward mechanisms, meaning that that explains actually part of the perceived exertion increase.

36:05
during the race. So of course, if you don't have an optimal nutrition, this will directly impact this. Plus, if you are going for instance, if you're under fuel, etc. You may also have some... So you will probably race at too high intensity and you are also coming from your muscles. So this is... So the first mechanisms I was talking about was the feed-forward mechanisms.

36:32
And here we are talking about feedback mechanisms. And both probably contributes to the increase of perceived exertion, to the increase of water in the tank during the race. And this is of course very important. So yeah, nutrition is, again, nutrition can not, well, except if it's a real hypoglycemia. So that's a different story. But nutrition is important and it's part of the model.

36:58
because again it will impact the speed at which the level of water will increase. The second aspect is, and I'm sure you're very familiar with this work, the mouth rinsing work. So if you only take an energy drink, a sweet drink, it's not sweet because if it's aspartame, for instance, it doesn't work, it has to be real sugar.

37:27
but you don't ingest those carbohydrates. So you just mouth-wrenching and then you spit the liquid. Then studies have shown that you will actually improve your performance. And probably because you have this feeling that something, that the carbohydrates are coming, even so they are not actually. And then this will probably also impact your level of water because it will decrease your

37:57
perceived exertion. So it's not of course as impactful as a real nutrition, but this is another place where nutrition can also play a role. Do you think that there's utility in using that if someone's got GI issues? So if they can't, if their stomach is really upset, they can't actually take on board any nutrition? Because you hear that all the time, like people get in trouble and they just end up vomiting out for...

38:26
Do you think that the carb rinsing actually could be helpful in that instance? It's a good question. First, I don't think if it works, and I think it works, there are even so there are studies that are like not 100% of the studies agreed on that. But I would say most are saying that this is beneficial, but the impact is not that big. It's still beneficial, I think.

38:56
whether or not you can do that, maybe, because yeah, in theory, it should improve your performance even slightly, but still. However, I'm not even sure that if you are in the state that you are describing with a heavy, intense gastrointestinal disorders, like just having this in your mouth may reinforce your, you know, this feeling. So I'm not, I.

39:25
don't know and I don't think anybody knows. Yeah, yeah, interesting. So, so, cause I, I generally, when I chat to people about, about GI issues, my general recommendations is to back off the intensity, back off the nutrition and wait for things to settle down. And then typically speaking, during a long event, you will always have these highs and lows of how you feel. So.

39:49
And then just, you know, you'll get and just know that you'll get through that. And then you'll be able to start taking stuff on board. That's generally what I would say. Is that, what do you think about that advice? Good. Yeah, yeah, no, I think it's exactly what one should do. Try to reduce intensity, drink water if possible, and then slowly restart fueling again. There are like.

40:17
things like drinking coke, can help and try to switch to a different food. And of course, the best thing is to try to avoid that. So, and a good way, as you know, a good way to do that is to is really to switch from different foods, some solid and liquid, salty and sweet, etc. etc. But it's even if you do that, it can happen.

40:46
And I think your recommendation is totally right. And keep in mind that it can really go better because if you have not experienced that, you feel like, no, how can it be better? It's impossible. I'm feeling so bad at the moment that it cannot come back again. And think about, I was talking about Ludovic Pommeret, so the French ultra runner, who was again fifth this year at UTMB, as I said, at the age of 48.

41:15
But when he won UTMB a couple of years ago, he was, I cannot tell you exactly, but because of GI disorders, he was very far after maybe 50K and he was able to come back and actually win the race, win the UTMB. Yeah, amazing. This example shows that it's definitely possible. Yeah. And I think it really speaks to...

41:42
like the art and science of endurance sport, right? Because we have all of this scientific knowledge, but sometimes you just don't know what's going to happen on the day. And so having as an athlete, because I think about this myself, like I want to have a couple of different plans for if things don't go to plan. So I then have confidence that it's going to be okay. Because I think part of it is that when things don't go the way that you anticipate, you can sort of panic

42:11
fill that tank up a little bit more with that distress that occurs when things don't go according to plan. Yeah, I agree. And it's a good thing to know and to give examples like the example that I just provided about Dupont-Mouret. But it's even better if you have experienced that yourself. And it's a good thing about being also a runner yourself because you can tell your athlete,

42:41
this runner and this happened in the past and he was or she was not feeling well and then it came back, et cetera. But if you have experienced that yourself, and it happened to me a couple of times, in particular, I remember my second UTMB when I did my best performance at UTMB, I was really feeling bad after two thirds of the race. Yeah. And then I was like, I was saying to my crew, okay, I'm going to the next head station.

43:07
But I'm probably, I don't want to give up now, but that will probably be done at the next station. So please go there and wait for me. I will probably stop there. And then I was caught by a runner, Antoine Guillon. And then I decided to try to follow him. And all of this for some reason, I'm not even really able to explain why. I started to feel better. And at the end I placed fourth at the UTMB. And it was my best.

43:35
So yeah, and I was like feeling so bad. So once you experience that yourself, you can be confident and tell your athlete, yeah, this is possible. Of course, it's not 100% of the time that it will come back, but it definitely happens. And having this experience can, yeah, make you confident when you tell others that, yeah, this is the truth, this is, I'm not only telling that to motivate you, this is the reality. It can happen.

44:05
Yeah, and that's totally what an experience. What about ketones? Now, have you seen, have you been sort of across the research looking at the potential for improved cognition with ketones? And do you think that they're another avenue for athletes to trial in terms of improved sort of mental fatigue ability? Well, first, I'm not an expert in nutrition. No, I haven't done

44:33
like a specific research on ketones. In my book, I have a paragraph, I'm in a section on ketones, but actually I was not the one writing this section. However, I'm not sure, again I'm not an expert so I may be wrong, but I'm not so sure that we have enough evidence to strongly recommend ketones diets in the transients. And of course,

45:01
As you know better than I do, if there is a sport where ketones can work, this is ultra, for sure. No, it doesn't work for shorter, more intense exercises. But even for ultra endurance runners, I'm not 100% sure that this is something I would recommend. So maybe if we have someone like we were talking about GI distress, someone who has done...

45:27
everything he or she can to improve and it was still not there. Maybe this is an avenue that can help the athletes. But if you don't have any major issues with that, I'm not convinced that we should really push an athlete to do this ketogenic diet.

45:51
And then the effect on mental fatigue, sorry, I don't know the literature to answer you. Yeah, no, no, that's fine. And they've just been trials that have just sort of utilized ketones outside of the actual diet. And so they've just sort of put them on rather than having people sort of... Okay, sorry. I thought you were talking about ketogenic diet. I keep doing diet. Yeah, yeah. Okay, sorry. I misunderstood. Yeah, no, no. All good.

46:18
No, and again, not on ketone supplementation. I don't know the literature about that. So, mental fatigue. It depends also on what you call mental fatigue, because if you have an effect on cognitive function, it can be helpful, but this is not the main thing in ultra, right? You are not supposed to think too heavily during a race. So, you see the effect on perceived exertion.

46:43
Can its own supplementation help reduce the level of fortune in the tank? This is the question and I don't have the answer. Yeah, yeah, no, no, good, good. And actually I wonder with a lot of that, because it is to do with the rate of perceived exertion, like that's so, because it is perception, like you could do a number of things, which might not necessarily stack up in terms of science, but if it makes you feel like you're going a little bit faster or you're, you're a little bit more focused than.

47:12
I suppose that could be a benefit. Yeah. Yeah, this is a non-placeable effect, of course. Yeah. Geyim, so your model, when you first sort of designed it in 2011, has that evolved? Are there any changes now that you think, yeah, I could add this little bit to that model to further explain this? Or has it sort of remained quite robust over the last 12 years?

47:36
I guess every time I see new publications, I use them as an evidence that it fits the model pretty well. So I can tell that the model has changed so much in the last 12 years. I think most of us, so when I explain the model and I...

48:02
And I explained why I think this is a good model. I can use new studies because of course the studies are, are, are keep being published. Yeah. But no, I can tell the model has really changed. I mean, I've changed my mind on several aspects such as, for instance, in the, I remember for instance, the first edition of my book, I was saying, because I think by then it was the, what people were thinking that you cannot, for instance, improve,

48:32
the amount of carbohydrate that you can ingest in one of the... And now, yeah, the training you'll get studies have shown that this is wrong. So, yeah, I can... I changed my mind on several topics, but not directly related to the model, I would say. I'm trying to think about that now, but I have no examples where I was like,

49:01
I was saying that in the model and this has changed. Yeah. Not much, I think. The model is still valid. That's good. It's good. Yeah, yeah, it's great to have something so robust. Now I did actually see a paper that you have published or an author on talking about the importance of VO2 max for ultra distance.

49:25
which some people might find surprising because, you know, it's low intensity, it's hiking, it's endurance. Can you sort of describe the importance of the O2 max for ultra running? Yes. So it's a good, it's a good, another good point, a good question. Of course. Yeah. When you run a V2 max, sorry, when you run an ultra, you are such a low intensity, as you said, probably around.

49:51
well, depending on which you're trying, of course, but between 40 and 60 percent of your view to max. Of course, this is very, very submaximal. And you're right, some people may say, so yeah, what's the point of trying to improve your view to max? Well, the key is in this percentage, actually, because if you run at a given speed and you have a high view to max, of course, this speed will represent a much lower percentage of your view to max. And there are positive consequences of that.

50:21
One is, for instance, we are talking about ketones, et cetera. One is the type of substrate that you will utilize. So if you are at a low, as you know, of course, and most of your listeners, I guess, know, if you are at a lower percentage of U2 max, then you will rely mainly on lipids. And if you are at a higher intensity, you will rely on carbohydrates. And of course, you want to use your fat to provide energy as much as you can.

50:51
So this is one example. So yeah, it's still very important to have a good view to Max. That being said, I think the best example is Gideon Jarnett. We know that he has a super good view to Max. And it definitely helps him to be a good runner.

51:13
Of course, this is not enough, obviously. There is no need to say that there are many parameters, many factors of performance in your transients, as in all sports. But in your try, it's probably even more true than in other sports because it's so complex. You have so many factors that can play a role that it's very, very complex. Anyway.

51:36
So yeah, I really believe that U2 max is still an important factor of performance in in ultra what this paper shown. Actually, we published a couple of papers. I'm not sure which one you're talking about. But we, we did a study at UTMB again, where we analyze the

52:02
of runners doing what we call the short distance, which was the the two shortest distances of UTMB, basically 40 to 55k, then the CCC which is a 100k and then the longest one, TDS and UTMB, so 145 and plus. And then we tried to correlate the View2Max with performance for the different distances and what we showed is that here the

52:29
the longer the distance, the less important is VU2max. So, and there are other studies that have shown correlation for instance between VU2max and performance for short distance and not long distance. So some studies have shown no correlation between VU2max and performance in ultra, but we have shown the same and we have shown a correlation between VU2max and the performance at UTMB.

52:58
So the summary of that is that Vue2Max is still an important factor for performance in ultra, but less than in shorter distances. And at the end of the day, the message is, yeah, you still need to train your Vue2Max. We know that training cannot improve hugely your Vue2Max. It's mainly genetics. But still, you still need to do your best to

53:28
a couple of years, there is no way you can further improve your U2 max, but you still need to train it to avoid that it decreases too much, especially with age. So there is still a need to do intense exercise even so you are on ultra. However, if you don't have a super good U2 max, then running ultra's could be a good idea because since the impact is less than shorter distances, you can have a better chance to be a good runner, a good U2 max runner if you don't have a super good U2 max.

53:58
And if you are not lucky with the lottery of genetics. Okay. So, so that's good to know. So with, cause I'm thinking, so right now, um, I am training for a marathon, very sort of quick build, quick build before I then train for, move on to train for Tadwera 100 K here in New Zealand, which is, which is, which is sort of a 12 weeks. So with the timing of my training with my marathon, um,

54:26
Like I'm doing quite a bit of shorter, harder stuff, which should theoretically is sort of VO2 max type training. Is it a good time to sort of train that stuff now before leading into my sort of longer hiking, running type stuff? What do you think? Yeah. I think it's reasonable. Uh, then the question is, okay, should you, when should you stop training or.

54:52
at least decrease the amount of training, doing interval training and so trying to bring your view to max. Yeah, I think then there is the development phase when you need to do, for instance, two sessions per week and this is usually early in the season and then you maintain that by doing maybe a session every other week or doing short races. Sometimes you can also participate to shorter races.

55:20
So yeah, and then of course we need to discuss in more details about your training plan. But this is not the purpose, I do not want to do that. Generally speaking, I think it's okay. Yeah, okay, no, that is awesome. Now it's like, I also actually saw a paper that you looked at looking at elite versus non-elite trail runners, which was kind of great because the sport has seemed to have exploded over the last few years.

55:50
So where can people who like age groupers, where should they, I don't know, like broadly speaking, I know everyone is different, but what elements should we need to look at to help improve our performance, sort of based on the differences between the elite and the age group athletes, would you say?

56:08
Well, in the paper you are mentioning, and I can tell you that you read the literature very well. So thank you for citing so many of my papers. You've done your work, your homework. We didn't investigate all factors of performance when we compared elite versus non-elite. And actually in another paper, maybe that was your next point, we also compared world runners versus trail runners.

56:35
in the French national team, both marathon French national team and tri-running team. Anyway, so the question was elite versus sub-non-elite. And so in this paper, we did not, for instance, we did not investigate VU2 max or endurance. So we focused on the actually the nervous club function and the energy cost of running. And what we found is that energy cost of running, so it cannot directly answer your question, which is much

57:04
broader than just what we did still. So we, I think we added, so we have a step further in the comparison between elite and non-elite. And what we found is that energy cost is actually better in elite than on elite. So we know that this is lower, better mean lower. When you're an elite runner, you spend less energy than non-elites.

57:34
genetics or not due to training. In Vue2Max, I think the genetic part is more important. In EnergyCost, I think the training component is more important. So it's probably simply due to the fact that they are training more. And if you train more, then you will simply by training more, you increase your EnergyCost suffering.

57:54
And this is of course one factor of performance. I don't think it's as important as on road running and as in short distance. So we are talking about the relative contribution of View2Max in performance. So View2Max is not as important on short distance. And I will say the same, that energy cost is not as important in ultra as it is in short distances. So what is more important is the endurance component, of course, you need to be able to.

58:22
resist to the decline of speed with time. So the endurance aspect is very important in ultra, but view to max and energy costs are still important, but not as much as on shorter distances, in my opinion. Not everyone agrees with that, but this is what I think. So yeah, so you can improve energy costs, meaning decrease your energy costs by training. And there are also ways to improve that, is strength training.

58:52
resistance training, you do plyometric or even a heavy resistance training is a good way to also minimize your energy cost of running. Again, I think it's more important for like marathon or half marathon 10k than... Yeah, okay. That's good. Especially to a running, ultra-training. Okay. No, that's good to know. I really, I enjoy strength training. I really hate plyometrics, like with a passion. It takes a lot of discipline for me to do it.

59:20
So anyway, finally, because I know that we're almost up on an hour. I was excited to see that you, this year, you're working with Salomon and they've got to really, they appear to be very focused on, and as they always are, of course, but the real sort of science side of running and providing these services for their athletes. What are you hoping to do with the athletes at Salomon?

59:51
That's a good point. So it's not to talk about another podcast because I know... Oh, CookCast! ..but yeah, yeah, yeah, CookCast. So we did with Jason Cook, we did a podcast entirely dedicated to that. So if people want to know more about the program, they can probably listen to this podcast.

01:00:14
Anyway, to answer your question, the idea was to try to provide all the support that the athletes need for performance. Of course, for many years, Salomon had a team and probably one of the best, to not say the best team,

01:00:43
since we have Rémi Bonnet, for instance. Anyway, and of course the support that they provided was amazing in terms of her equipment for many years now. And now they wanted to provide something else than just equipment and biomechanical analysis and all the work that they can do with the scientists at Salomon.

01:01:07
So this is why they decided to launch this program, which is based on a network of experts. And I'm leading the program, but of course I'm not the only one involved. I'm just coordinating the different experts when there is a need for an athlete to work on different aspects of performance. And as I explained in Krupp's podcast,

01:01:37
to, how can I say that, to involve the athletes in this support. I mean, in theory, you may think, okay, so they are going to be super happy. And they were actually, they knew that there will be a support. They were, most of them were actually, not all of them. Some of them are not interested at all by the scientific aspect. And it's totally fair. I respect that. But most of them were, yeah, this is cool. This is a plus for us, et cetera.

01:02:06
But then when the moment came that I could help, we did many things during the year. So it's definitely a plus, but I was hoping actually to do more. And so I believe first that it takes time to change their mind and them having a more rational approach. When I say them, it's not only the athletes, it is the athlete and their coach.

01:02:35
Again, most of the coaches are interested, are very keen, are interested. But then, I mean, it's true for, again, for the athletes and the coaches, they have their routine. They have, they all, everyone has a super busy schedule. And if you want to, to implement things, it takes time. And so you have to make a choice sometimes between training and testing, between resting

01:03:05
getting more out of a program such as the S2A program, etc. So it's not as easy as it may seem. Again, we have done quite a few things in terms of testing, advice, etc. And I cannot, of course, reveal everything. I have to, some things are, actually, everything is a secret confidential.

01:03:32
But yeah, I hope that we can, I know that we can do more and I hope we can in the future. And it takes time. I mean, there are elite athletes, if they are in the team, it means that they are here for a reason. So they are among the best.

01:03:56
which in my opinion doesn't mean that they cannot further improve. Yes. And science is definitely not the only way to improve performance, but this is one avenue among other avenues. And I think for some athletes, it can really make a difference, for others maybe less, but everyone can benefit, in my opinion, from this program. Yeah, so we need to keep working.

01:04:21
maybe make them more confident about the program, about what we can do, how we can improve the performance, but hopefully it will come. Yeah, and I feel like whatever lessons you learn over the next five or 10 years, these are lessons which will transfer down to the age group athlete. If you can learn from the best, regardless of their genetics, you're right, there are still training techniques and ways to do things which can improve them, which will...

01:04:51
you know, whenever embargoes are lifted or whenever you're able to talk about things down the line, I feel like that would be beneficial for, you know, us age group athletes as well. And this is actually, again, I cannot reveal everything. It's also confidential, but this is exactly what Salomon wants to do. Yeah, nice. They want to, the program is not, for now it's mainly dedicated to elite athletes, but exactly what they want to do. They want, they hope to.

01:05:20
that this program will benefit to their consumers, to also lower level athletes. And they also want to provide services to everyone in the future. Again, this is a bit confidential, but we will launch something very soon that will go in this direction. So hopefully it will be very helpful for the runners. That is awesome. Guillaume, now just one final question.

01:05:48
Anything new in this sort of realm of research and ultra runners, which you are super excited for that we have to look out for on PubMed or ResearchGate or anything, anything in the pipelines? Yeah, one thing I was surprised you didn't ask anything about that is the sex differences. I did want to actually, it's on my list, but I saw the time. Are you? Yeah, yeah. Can you?

01:06:12
Yeah, maybe it could be another entire podcast because there are so many things to say and it's probably too late to start talking about that. But to answer your question, this is something that is very exciting. This is something we have started to work on a couple of years ago, actually many years ago now. And we just had a PhD in the lab on this specific topic, then used big data to also try to understand better the

01:06:40
the sex differences in endurance running. So yeah, this is something I really want to further investigate in the future. I'm very, like, how can we explain that some female endurance athletes are so good in ultra? So it's not as simple as it may seem. Yeah, I mean, I don't.

01:07:05
Yeah, I don't know if I want to start talking about that because if I start that maybe another 20 minutes. I know. And you know what? It's very exciting. No, I hear you Guillaume. If you were happy to come and chat to me another time, I would love to do an entire podcast and it would be amazing. Did you see that the Berlin World Record went last night in the marathon? And that I was thinking... That's a very impressive performance. Very impressive.

01:07:31
Yeah, the gap is closing. Even though that's ultra versus marathon, it's quite a different sport. Guillaume, where can people find more about you and your research? I have a personal website, so maybe you can put the link in your page. So it's www.kinizirogui.com and there is the French and an English site. So yeah, your listeners can find it.

01:07:59
everything on the English box. Okay, that is amazing. Thank you so much for your time this morning. And I certainly would love to chat more in depth about the sex differences, because that definitely was on my list of things to talk about. It will be too long, but yeah, another time. It will be a pleasure, and thank you for the invitation. Thank you. See you later, have a lovely day. Bye bye.

01:08:33
Alright team, hopefully you got something from that. And I certainly did in the build up to a Tata Weara, well, hopefully 102. We'll just see how this calf holds up. But certainly he is a wealth of information and I'm really looking forward to discussing in more depth the sex differences in endurance athletes because that is going to be such a fascinating conversation. And next week on the podcast, I speak to coach.

01:09:01
David Mathis, all about reverse dieting and health restoration diets. He's a member of Team Biolane. Great conversation there. Until then though, don't forget that you have 50% off my fixed term meal plans up until Friday. So if you want to give yourself the gift of health or someone you love, then this is a perfect opportunity to do so. I have my fat loss plan for women, Flo.

01:09:31
I have the MAN plan, I have my 12-week Be Awesome Real Food Nutrition plan, and I also have my 12-week Athlete plan available. So make sure you check that out. We will pop the links in the show notes to that as well. And of course you can DM me. You also have the opportunity to defer starting until the dust has settled on New Year. So don't forget that. Catch me over on Facebook@mikkiwillidenNutrition.

01:09:58
Twitter, threads and Instagram @mikkiwilliden or head to my website, mikkiwilliden.com and pick yourself up an awesome deal on my meal plans. All right team, you have the best day. See you later.